According to this theory where social stability arises from equality, we would expect that the most stable civilizations in history must have been the ones with higher equality.
But what were those stable civilizations in history with high equality again? Other than cases of equal poverty. I'm having trouble looking them up. It seems that pretty much all of them had slavery in some form.
recursivecaveat · 16h ago
Are you certain that the civilizations you consider wealthy were not essentially 'equal poverty' with a tiny number of elites of top? From the article: "After the fall of Rome, people actually got taller and healthier". A generic high standard of living for the common people does not necessarily raise conquering armies or monuments to capture the modern imagination. The contrast is mostly against more distributed societies that you might not recognize as 'famous civilizations' per se, perhaps were able to provide better for their inhabitants.
1659447091 · 13h ago
> But what were those stable civilizations in history with high equality again?
The ones that lost to the unstable ones and had evidence of their existence wiped from history -- is my theory. It's why we can't have nice things.
Stable civilizations would not be violent, it's a disadvantage unless one of the unstable civilizations takes on something resembling Dexters code allowing the stable ones to get on with their civilization
thatcat · 15h ago
Hunter gather
delichon · 15h ago
I agree that if we abandoned agriculture, medicine, education, engineering, etc., and went back to hunter gathering, we would have more stability. It seems drastic though.
AndrewKemendo · 15h ago
The Yanomami are the most surveyed group that fits this category
Their chief threat is the externalities from industrialization and encroachment from transactional extractionist commercial systems.
You can look at the Hadzabe and the Tarawa also for other examples in extant locales
The Yanomami are hunter-gatherers, with no private property and very limited material wealth. They enjoy the equality of subsistence living. Until modern times they were very stable. But apparently that kind of equality goes away when wealth appears.
And even they follow the usual tribal pattern of making war with their neighbors and taking women and children.
defrost · 13h ago
That "usual pattern" is subject to great debate:
Although some Yanomami really have been engaged in intensive warfare and other kinds of bloody conflict, this violence is not an expression of Yanomami culture itself. It is, rather, a product of specific historical situations: The Yanomami make war not because Western culture is absent, but because it is present, and present in certain specific forms.
Their violence was observed by people following a wave of slave-hunting expeditions by the conquistadors and bandeirantes.
yyyk · 2h ago
The Nobel Savage is always pushed back to the time before any observations. One day we'll have some ancient findings, at which point they'll blame Marajoaran colonization or something.
defrost · 1h ago
It's not one or the other, the Savage Savage is just as dully ridiculous as its counter.
Bursts of savagery interspersed with long dull periods of not much in the record layers is more the norm.
Either way it's a clear and obvious bias that almost all first contacts by Europeans were observed under unusual stress.
yyyk · 11h ago
>After the fall of Rome, people actually got taller and healthier
BS. Evidence show a massive population fall, with much worse living standards [0]. The guy is reading his own pet ideology into reality.
Nice cite. Devereaux above has a post-publication note with alternate explanations to that.
That issue is debatable, I just think that 'taking centuries to reach same population level while at similar-ish tech level and much worse diet' is decisive.
8bitsrule · 13h ago
Wow! Woke history has been made. This explains a whole lot about the 5,000 years of never-civilized 'civilizations' ... and about what is going on in our world right now.
But what were those stable civilizations in history with high equality again? Other than cases of equal poverty. I'm having trouble looking them up. It seems that pretty much all of them had slavery in some form.
The ones that lost to the unstable ones and had evidence of their existence wiped from history -- is my theory. It's why we can't have nice things.
Stable civilizations would not be violent, it's a disadvantage unless one of the unstable civilizations takes on something resembling Dexters code allowing the stable ones to get on with their civilization
Their chief threat is the externalities from industrialization and encroachment from transactional extractionist commercial systems.
You can look at the Hadzabe and the Tarawa also for other examples in extant locales
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanomami
And even they follow the usual tribal pattern of making war with their neighbors and taking women and children.
Bursts of savagery interspersed with long dull periods of not much in the record layers is more the norm.
Either way it's a clear and obvious bias that almost all first contacts by Europeans were observed under unusual stress.
BS. Evidence show a massive population fall, with much worse living standards [0]. The guy is reading his own pet ideology into reality.
[0] e.g. https://acoup.blog/2022/02/11/collections-rome-decline-and-f...
That issue is debatable, I just think that 'taking centuries to reach same population level while at similar-ish tech level and much worse diet' is decisive.