One thing I really love that Japan got right was the creation of e-money systems that are anonymous (you can get a Suica for 20,000 yen without any registration information), work offline (you don't need network at-payment, nor does the terminal), and are easily accessible (you can get them at any train station, you can charge them at any ATM or convenience store with cash). In contrast, a debit/credit card usually requires a lot more pain to get onboarded with. The closest thing is probably those silly visa prepaid cards you can buy, but they require a little work to use regularly.
mapt · 9m ago
Those prepaid visa cards don't actually exist, I think they were killed by AML/KYC. Instead, they appear to be "prepaid visa gift cards" accepted at less than a hundred large chains.
cosmotic · 21m ago
Meanwhile, there's no apparent way to pay for a train using an American android phone (or at least I couldn't figure it out last year). One of the two apps refused to install on non-japanese phones, the other installed but refused to run. Had to pay with cash and it was a huge pain. Half the time I inexplicably had to do a fare adjustment, a hugely embarrassing moment blocking the turnstile, especially considering the culture there.
rtpg · 1m ago
In some stations now there are some entry points that use "standard" visa touchless payments that can be used now I think.
Your android phone likely doesn't have the right NFC tech that iPhones have (google Felica, it's a separate NFC standard used basically only in Japan. Apple builds it into all of their iPhones, most android phones outside of Japan do not). It's mostly just a case of divergent tech, along with Apple being willing to spend money to avoid SKU differentiation/support people traveling in Japan.
cosmic_cheese · 11m ago
That’s thanks to Android phone manufacturers, which don’t want to pay for a global license for the NFC tech involved. Apple on the other hand does pay for a global license and so iPhones and Apple Watches from anywhere work perfectly with Japanese cash card terminals. I use a digital Suica on my US iPhone during my visits.
Supposedly Pixels have the requisite hardware, but Google software locks the functionality to Japan. Some have been able to hack their Pixels to force it on but from what I’ve gathered it’s flaky when you do that.
Shank · 3m ago
There’s not a reasonable solution using global Android phones, but you could obviously just buy a physical IC card and use that, which is what I was suggesting here in the first place.
csinode · 25m ago
> work offline (you don't need network at-payment, nor does the terminal)
Surely this is massively vulnerable to double spend attacks?
lmm · 2m ago
Not really - what's the attack? You could maybe somehow clone a card with a balance on it and spend that balance twice, if you can figure out that a particular terminal is offline (or have a way to take it offline), but how do you turn that into an attack that you can scale enough to cover the fixed costs? You're not getting your own terminal without a contract and due diligence on your company, so you can't really pull off an attack that needs to control both sides.
Shank · 4m ago
> Surely this is massively vulnerable to double spend attacks?
FeliCa uses mutual authentication with eventual bookkeeping and sync. I believe that there are some theoretical attacks on older cards but the terminals are regularly synchronized and get a ban list. In-practice, you’ll also be reported to the police, probably.
andreareina · 16m ago
It's been in widespread use for a while at this point so in practice probably not. I imagine the authentication keys to present as a card are very tightly controlled and not just anyone can become a provider.
mappu · 25m ago
I think a lot of the motivations are AML. Suica has a low maximum balance, that probably restricts the nefarious use cases.
marssaxman · 13m ago
I got irritated with the profusion of "no cash accepted" signs a few years back and started making a point of always carrying cash, to use whenever practical. I don't take it to an extreme, but I also don't want to live in a world where every transaction is trackable and all commerce is regulated by Visa, Mastercard, Apple, or Google.
rolph · 3m ago
[delayed]
cosmic_cheese · 15m ago
The paragraph about the inconvenience of cash resonates with me. It’s a pain to manage and easy to lose or get stolen. At least if I drop my wallet full of cards, in a couple of calls any fraudulent transactions will be voided and the cards turned useless, but stolen cash is just gone.
That’s not to discount its upsides but its downsides shouldn’t be handwaived away either.
brettp · 11m ago
Australian here, like the author. Apple Pay (and equivalents) work _everywhere_ here, including at the tiniest market stalls, and for the smallest purchases. I stopped carrying my wallet the moment my driver licence was available on my phone, the last piece of plastic I was mandated to carry around.
While the paranoid nerd in me might occasionally wonder about all my spending being tracked, watching someone fumble with magic pieces of ~paper~ plastic and metal in a supermarket now looks as quaint to me as someone taking their pig to market to exchange for some eggs and bread.
ausssssie · 44s ago
Yes everywhere. Car parks. Schools. Cafes. Antique shop in a quaint village. The only cash only places are really just trying to evade tax, or are some 50 year old business refusing to keep up out of stubbornness.
And now we rarely have the "it wont connect lets try again it takes 2 minutes" dance of 10 years ago.
rolph · 8m ago
[delayed]
kshahkshah · 20m ago
The big benefit is tipping in cash. Buys a lot of good will… and free drinks
No comments yet
gedy · 15m ago
I buy any fast food with cash. I don't need a helpful Insurance company data mining my habits.
superkuh · 32m ago
I'll always remember the time when the tourist town of Ely, Minnesota, USA had it's single fiber internet cable cut. Pretty much all the groups there trying to rent canoes, equipment, hotels, etc with corporate cards weren't able to do it. We were lucky our group brought cash.
A society depending entirely on corporations for currency function is incredibly fragile in addition to corporate payment services being rent seeking, privacy invading, transaction morality deciding monsters. At least in the USA.
Governments should definitely be regulating and requiring those offering paid goods and services to accept cash. And not just for paying debts.
traeregan · 12m ago
I never thought I’d see Ely mentioned on HN.
http://moosebay.com is a close family friend who lives in and guides out of Ely. I had a great trip there many years ago.
I’ll have to ask them about your story, surely they remember it happening.
SchemaLoad · 15m ago
This seems like the ideal use case for satellite internet like starlink though. Main fiber connection, but a satellite backup. The trend I predict is just more robust redundant connections, not people giving up on cards.
bombcar · 34m ago
You can pay with "cash" while using cards.
Gets some of the advantages - not all.
doctoboggan · 27m ago
How can you replicate the anonymity of cash with a card?
tossit444 · 18m ago
Prepaid debit cards usually do not require identification.
hopelite · 31m ago
Maybe read the post before commenting?
throwaway22032 · 12m ago
Budgeting with the data trail of a card is significantly easier if you have a lot of transactions.
It's also generally cheaper due to cashback and other incentives.
Other than that I've always found the idea that cash is "inconvenient" a bit of a child-like argument. Okay, yeah, you have to count some coins, you also have to brush your teeth and use a knife and fork instead of your hands, come on.
Your android phone likely doesn't have the right NFC tech that iPhones have (google Felica, it's a separate NFC standard used basically only in Japan. Apple builds it into all of their iPhones, most android phones outside of Japan do not). It's mostly just a case of divergent tech, along with Apple being willing to spend money to avoid SKU differentiation/support people traveling in Japan.
Supposedly Pixels have the requisite hardware, but Google software locks the functionality to Japan. Some have been able to hack their Pixels to force it on but from what I’ve gathered it’s flaky when you do that.
Surely this is massively vulnerable to double spend attacks?
FeliCa uses mutual authentication with eventual bookkeeping and sync. I believe that there are some theoretical attacks on older cards but the terminals are regularly synchronized and get a ban list. In-practice, you’ll also be reported to the police, probably.
That’s not to discount its upsides but its downsides shouldn’t be handwaived away either.
While the paranoid nerd in me might occasionally wonder about all my spending being tracked, watching someone fumble with magic pieces of ~paper~ plastic and metal in a supermarket now looks as quaint to me as someone taking their pig to market to exchange for some eggs and bread.
And now we rarely have the "it wont connect lets try again it takes 2 minutes" dance of 10 years ago.
No comments yet
A society depending entirely on corporations for currency function is incredibly fragile in addition to corporate payment services being rent seeking, privacy invading, transaction morality deciding monsters. At least in the USA.
Governments should definitely be regulating and requiring those offering paid goods and services to accept cash. And not just for paying debts.
http://moosebay.com is a close family friend who lives in and guides out of Ely. I had a great trip there many years ago.
I’ll have to ask them about your story, surely they remember it happening.
Gets some of the advantages - not all.
It's also generally cheaper due to cashback and other incentives.
Other than that I've always found the idea that cash is "inconvenient" a bit of a child-like argument. Okay, yeah, you have to count some coins, you also have to brush your teeth and use a knife and fork instead of your hands, come on.