A few months ago, I was studying Giant Steps and I came across the “Giant Steps is actually very simple (yes, really)” video by Dave Pollack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd75Mwo4JNo
Pollack argues that the main reason that Giant Steps is such a high mountain is because it is traditionally played at such a ferocious tempo. Slow it down, and the Coltrane Changes become fairly ordinary ii-V-I substitution progressions.
I’m persuaded. I love Coltrane, and I’ve listened to the Giant Steps album countless times. The Coltrane Changes are very nice, but in the line of other jazz theory such as tritone substitution, the deceptive cadence, and so on.
The main thing with Giant Steps is that to play it like Coltrane does you have to practice it to death, accumulate a vocabulary of riffs, and gain facility at improvising over sophisticated changes moving at a speed that other tunes won’t have prepared you for.
Not only does it cycle through a ton of keys, but wind instruments like the sax require unique fingerings and embouchure changes in each key. It’s not nearly as hard on a guitar.
rectang · 28m ago
“Quantity has a quality of its own.” — Karl Marx, or maybe Coltrane.
asimpletune · 1h ago
Absolutely. And Central Park West is a good example of the same concept but slowed down.
ghostpepper · 3h ago
If you don’t have the time (or the musical background) for the full article, this short YouTube video touches on some of the same ideas in a much more condensed and accessible version:
Thanks for sharing! I've been playing music for 30 years but my theory knowledge is pretty bare bones. That video was really accessible but still got the point across in enough detail.
tshaddox · 1h ago
> Thelonious Monk once said “All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians“.
I haven’t heard that one. I think I prefer this one, attributed to Leibniz:
“Music is the pleasure the human mind experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting.”
shermantanktop · 16m ago
On the bandstand, there's usually a ton of highly aware counting going on. 24 bars of rest! followed by 8 bars of rest! and then 16 bars of latin feel! now back to 8 of swing!
On top of that there is definitely some feel and intuition going on. But for a band to play non-trivial music, everyone is counting unless they know the material cold, and even then they are probably counting at times.
ryandvm · 58m ago
"Music is math for people that don't like numbers"
-- some movie I don't recall
svenmakes · 44m ago
As a musician I wanted to hear the notes on the diagram so I made a little tool to do so: https://coltrane.sven.zone
chrisweekly · 3h ago
Fascinating, well-written piece. Thanks for sharing! I plan to revisit it more closely when I free up (probably while listening to A Love Supreme -- arguably the greatest jazz album of all time).
Amorymeltzer · 1h ago
Just finished listening to it yesterday! My first time with it, excellent stuff, but not topping Mingus Ah Um! I've been on a Jazz kick since listening to an episode of Kirk Hamilton's Strong Songs podcast about John Williams[1]—which was an excellent listen and I learned tons—that touched on Jazz and Mingus in particular.
The Davis / Coltrane collaboration Kind Of Blue significantly influenced Coltrane's later works like the OP's Giant Steps and parent's A Love Supreme.
Of which you're undoubtedly aware; I'm just explaining the inside joke in your second line to others.
P.S. Kind of Blue is also my favorite.
chrisweekly · 2h ago
I did qualify it with "arguably". Kind of Blue is, IMHO, the other viable candidate.
skvmb · 3h ago
This is pretty solid, I try to use this method all the time.
In my opinion the underrated "Get Your Greasy Head Off The Sham" by Breastfed Yak is jazz at it's finest.
glompers · 1h ago
Without more prominent melody or harmony I could not find what is finer about it than conventional approaches to jazz. Could you please elaborate on what its quality is?
skvmb · 1h ago
To be honest, I am not a jazz musician or even a jazz fan. When I do record music I have better progress when holding myself to a standard or a set of limitations to work within. It gets the brain going to find new solutions to fit within a self-imposed framework.
pessimizer · 57m ago
Nothing upper-middle class people love more than worshiping dead black Americans, while treating their descendants like dangerous parasites. They were so cool, such genius! I can't wait to be the authority on them, and make more on redefining them than they ever saw in their lives, or to buy the new product that no black American makes a dime from.
One day, every black American will be gone, and all that will be left of them are statues that everybody holds in very high regard.
rectang · 5m ago
Deification of artists in theory writing is commonplace, as is aspiring to be seen as an authority. The subject matter could have been Mozart, or Picasso — you'd see the same phenomena.
I agree that we have some distance to go in ensuring that wealth moves to the communities that created the art and the value, but absent evidence that this author has been "treating their descendants like dangerous parasites", I think they're catching a stray from you.
sealthedeal · 30m ago
You ok man? Having a bad day?
shermantanktop · 21m ago
GP is describing a well-known phenomenon that spans countries, cultures and history: majority culture having a love/hate relationship with minorities, with extraordinary individuals on one side and diffuse fear and hatred on the other. Go read Othello's speeches.
So I know what they're saying. Do you not?
krapp · 3m ago
Not every instance of white people liking or consuming black culture is that of a racist parasite trying to bleed the culture dry though. Sometimes white people just like stuff, and their interests overlap (as in this case with esotericism and music.) Culture works that way for everyone. The author doesn't seem to be trying to redefine anything or whitewash John Coltrane or what have you.
yubblegum · 3h ago
See also: Arcana V. Music, Magic & Mysticism. Ed: John Zorn, Hips Road 2010
Pollack argues that the main reason that Giant Steps is such a high mountain is because it is traditionally played at such a ferocious tempo. Slow it down, and the Coltrane Changes become fairly ordinary ii-V-I substitution progressions.
I’m persuaded. I love Coltrane, and I’ve listened to the Giant Steps album countless times. The Coltrane Changes are very nice, but in the line of other jazz theory such as tritone substitution, the deceptive cadence, and so on.
The main thing with Giant Steps is that to play it like Coltrane does you have to practice it to death, accumulate a vocabulary of riffs, and gain facility at improvising over sophisticated changes moving at a speed that other tunes won’t have prepared you for.
EDIT: I originally posted the wrong link, to Giant Steps slowed down 30%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilbrDJy9-98
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62tIvfP9A2w
I haven’t heard that one. I think I prefer this one, attributed to Leibniz:
“Music is the pleasure the human mind experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting.”
On top of that there is definitely some feel and intuition going on. But for a band to play non-trivial music, everyone is counting unless they know the material cold, and even then they are probably counting at times.
-- some movie I don't recall
1: https://strongsongspodcast.com/blogs/episodes/s05e05-john-wi...
Else: Deringers at noon. Bring your second.
Of which you're undoubtedly aware; I'm just explaining the inside joke in your second line to others.
P.S. Kind of Blue is also my favorite.
In my opinion the underrated "Get Your Greasy Head Off The Sham" by Breastfed Yak is jazz at it's finest.
One day, every black American will be gone, and all that will be left of them are statues that everybody holds in very high regard.
I agree that we have some distance to go in ensuring that wealth moves to the communities that created the art and the value, but absent evidence that this author has been "treating their descendants like dangerous parasites", I think they're catching a stray from you.
So I know what they're saying. Do you not?
https://archive.org/details/zorn-john-ed.-arcana-v.-musician...