Anyway, I think this is smart. I live in Berlin and I noticed a bit of an uptick in the amount of US people coming this way lately. The politics in the US might have something to do with that. There's definitely an interest for people to leave there.
Also, the US has been leaning a lot on foreigners to keep its research departments going for decades now. Indians, Chinese, and indeed Europeans. If you look at Silicon Valley, there are a lot of immigrants running companies there. With all the madness around immigration in the US, it has become a bit less attractive as a country to move to. I think this is as much about making the EU a more attractive place to that group of people than it is about luring actual US citizens this way.
The EU has its own issues on immigration. But it's there and there are a lot of opportunities here. I noticed a sharp uptick in Indian job applications recently. There's a lot of talk about money. But most academics aren't on the huge fees you would need to sustain yourself in places with extremely high cost of living on the East and West coast.
Academics don't earn a lot in Europe. I used to be one. But you can live well on what you earn nevertheless.
perihelions · 54m ago
You people are too good at critical thinking to read "an investment of 500 million euros between 2025 and 2027" and not instantly write this off as empty grandstanding.
How much does—or did, recently—the United States federal government invest in scientists in the USA? Is it ~$70 billion a year? [0]
Europe can achieve America's (past) results when Europe starts talking with money. Science migration has historically gone in one direction across the Atlantic, and it is 100% about who pays better. The EU isn't remotely close to funding its own scientists properly—let alone attract new ones from abroad!
If European science benefits from the ongoing government implosion in the USA, that'd be entirely due to the US' unforced error. EU's politicians deserve no credit.
This is not EU R&D budget. This is a small delta, extra funding specifically for attracting US scientists who are looking to move. Comparing this to the total expenditure by the US federal government seems...odd.
I asked ChatGPT:
"Combining both EU-level and national R&D expenditures, the total R&D spending across the EU in 2023 was approximately €505 billion." But that appears to be total, both government and industry.
Spending by national government was apparently around € 123 billion. In addition, the EU spent ~ € 13 billion a year. So a total of € 136 billion in government spending.
I salute you for being open about the chatgpt use! Do you really trust what it says? That quoted chatgpt-number has zero value to me.
The other numbers are valuable, since they come from actual sources.
fxtentacle · 30m ago
I believe the goal of this initiative is not to create a better offer in Europe. It's to remind US scientists that US funding has been axed.
surgical_fire · 31m ago
> You people are too good at critical thinking to read "an investment of 500 million euros between 2025 and 2027" and not instantly write this off as empty grandstanding.
Such is life when you can't infinitely print money for being the world reserve currency. When the whole world is buying your debt no questions asked, it's much easier to write some larger checks you know.
Zenul_Abidin · 43m ago
Yeah I see this initiative only bringing in a few US scientists, specifically the more politically-inclined ones.
klunger · 1h ago
My department (at a Norwegian university) is working on a headhunting plan. The way the ERC grants are structured, the applicant needs a sponsoring institute. So, we are identifying researchers who are working on relevant topics, if we think it will be a good fit (and/or if we have successfully collaborated with them in the past).
Some of the details are still being ironed out. The beauracracy is real! Even so, I guess the first emails will go out late next week.
fooker · 53m ago
Europe does every thing except the only needed thing, paying up.
Not just for this, same for finding startups, helping Ukraine or Palestine.
thebruce87m · 25m ago
Seems like Europe has provided a bigger chunk than the US for Ukraine, unless you think it should be even more than that?
The EU spends as much as the US on Ukraine, and about twice as much if you count refugee aid.
mpweiher · 26m ago
- Europe has spent more on Ukraine than the US.
- Europe has, sadly, also been the main sender of aid to, effectively, Hamas. I wish they would stop.
hyperman1 · 31m ago
It's worse. There is no Europe. There is no one who can decide to pay.
It's a marriage of convenience between states that know they are ignored if they speak on their own. But each of them sees all others as a way to amplify their own voice but surely not have an independent thought. It's the penultimate example of trying to herd cats.
Europe is good at commerce because it has to, the member states want to sell to each other. In the same way, it's bad at politics, military and vision because it still can afford to.
constantcrying · 17m ago
Europe needs to do exactly one thing. Stop paying for everything.
mobtrain · 37m ago
Europe „needs to pay up […] for Palestine” .. can you expand on this a little why you'd think that?
mpweiher · 25m ago
Yeah, funding a terror group that wants to destroy the west seems like a suboptimal use of our wealth.
rednafi · 1h ago
Europe really needs to fix the funding issue and language fragmentation. Otherwise there's no "luring people in." Every time someone brings this up, a bunch of people are like, "Have you ever worked in the EU? They all speak English at work." Yes, I have, and also on three other continents. Europe hasn’t adopted English at work that much, and no one I know is excited about dealing with racism, picking up the local language while doing high-octane white-collar jobs or research.
Europe keeps a ton of jobs gated behind language requirements. Sure, you'll get the most desperate people who need a visa this way, but Europe isn’t attracting top of the crop like the US this way.
Also, the red tape is brutal and everything requires six layers of bureaucracy. Even Amazon orders and customer service suck, but that's beside the point. It's way easier to get into a great US university and get funding for research. It's also easier to get a job afterward. The sheer number of opportunities, combined with the lack of a language barrier and less bureaucracy, makes the US better than all the other alternatives despite the poor transportation, weak social safety net, and terrible healthcare.
aden1ne · 49m ago
> Europe really needs to fix the funding issue and language fragmentation.
The language fragmentation certainly is an issue in the general workplace. But academia does use English as its lingua franca throughout most of the EU, though it might depend on the country. Certainly in places I've worked in academia - and yes, that has been in multiple countries in the EU - I've never had to utter a single word in something other than English in the workplace. But it is International English alright, which may be somewhat of a novelty to the native English speaker if they haven't been exposed.
> Even Amazon orders
That's wholly Amazon's problem. If I order something from BOL or Coolblue it arrives within 12-24 hours. Even small pop-and-mom webstores usually deliver within 1-2 business days. It's only Amazon that somehow manages to average more than a week (my last order at Amazon only arrived after 2 months. Guess why I no longer use their service).
No comments yet
prmoustache · 1h ago
> Europe hasn’t adopted English at work that much
Not where it isn't strictly necessary and I believe it is a good thing but I've seen english being used whenever people from multiple european countries are working with each other.
It is the case in IT and definitely the case in research too. Even 27 years ago when I was an intern in France, my office was next to the office of some mathematicians, I believe one japanese, a russian and another one I don't remember and they were all speaking in english.
aleph_minus_one · 14m ago
> Europe really needs to fix the funding issue and language fragmentation.
Indeed: German is the most common first language of the EU, and French is the second-most common first language of the EU. [1] Let's from now on decide that all EU citizens have to speak one of these two languages. Language fragmentation problem solved. :-)
Or are you one of the nerds who lobbies for the idea that everybody should speak Esperanto.
Concerning the idea that "everybody in the EU should speak English": since UK left the EU, there exists no EU country anymore in which English is the only official language: only in Ireland and Malta, English is one of the official languages.
This reads like a bitter ex-employee. I guess you were in Germany?
There are plenty of European countries that do use English as the working language for technical fields, if there is not enough domestic talent.
What you say about the US research ecosystem may have been true until January 2025 but it is unfortuantely no longer the case. At the same time, the EU is finally getting its act together in both defense AND research funding. So I would forecast a sunnier future in Europe for scientists than the the US, at least for the next generation.
ykonstant · 31m ago
I don't know about defense, but on mathstodon people are having bitter laughs over the "500 million for research", when the UK alone with its faltering economy manages to get multiple times that in the same time frame.
peer2pay · 50m ago
Out of everything wrong in this comment the funniest one is "Even Amazon orders […] suck"
Care to elaborate? Last time I was in the US my prime order took over a week to be delivered because it had to get shipped from a warehouse in rural Ohio to San Diego.
Here in Germany you get absolutely everything next day because the country is about the size of an average US state.
satanfirst · 1h ago
Drawing on one or even a few experiences for a conclusion for all of Europe in all sectors is a bit much. Scientific Organizations are not looking for local language skills. Many are in Germany which is very bureaucratic about other aspects of life, but they all spend their time on standardized International bureaucracy. The Universities in other countries might be harder to get in to, yet I wouldn't buy a $250k US University scratch ticket in a field like science. (The US University is a particularly poor investment for less qualified students.)
hnhg · 1h ago
Which part of Europe? It really doesn't make sense to generalise such a diverse set of countries. Can you be more specific?
MattPalmer1086 · 51m ago
It may have been easier to get funding for research in the US, but that's looking a bit harder right now, no?
viraptor · 1h ago
Holy mother of generalisations. I'm not even going to try addressing separate things.
My problem with the post is that the claims are too broad to refute, but too FUD to not respond to.
constantcrying · 27m ago
I see great success for this programs, if they can avoid telling these scientists what they are going to get paid or how much taxes they will have to pay.
If you want to get paid, by American standards, lower middle class wages, then sure, come to Europe. You can also enjoy arcane organizations and bureaucratic nightmares.
kelnos · 1h ago
No surprise there, and a very smart move. I'm disgusted that my country is telling the world it doesn't want to be a leader in scientific research anymore, but all these people will certainly find a place to do their research somewhere else.
> an investment of 500 million euros between 2025 and 2027
That seems like nowhere near enough money, though. But I suppose it's better than nothing.
atemerev · 36m ago
Oh well.
When Russian scientists were escaping the horrible realities of Putin's regime, had someone in Europe attempted to "lure" them? No, they were fired by hundreds [1] and students were not allowed anymore [2]. Not counting the immense indirect pressure like closing their bank accounts and not prolonging their existing residence documents even when they had jobs.
When Ukrainian scientists tried to escape the horrible war of aggression and cruelty that Russia brought on them, did someone try to "lure" them in? No, they had some charity help and some temporary programs, but mostly they get "emergency temporary" permits with the condition they have to go home afterwards. These temporary protection measures are now being phased out [3] and many Ukrainian scientists will be shown the door.
Now, American scientists are escaping the horrible realities of their regime. But for them, EU is much more friendlier and welcoming.
It's quite misleading to refer to them as "escaping the horrible realities of Putin's regime" like they were some kind of defectors, when according to your source they were all working as representatives of Russian labs, and most weren't based at CERN itself. It was the cooperation with the affiliated labs that was terminated. Russian citizens affiliated to non-Russian labs were allowed to stay.
atemerev · 10m ago
Russia was not a member of CERN, so most Russian physicists worked there on (fake-ish, for documents only) exchange programs with JINR Russia. Most of them were living in France or Switzerland for many years. Given the opportunity, every single one of them would have changed the affiliation, but CERN only agreed to employ them this way. Okay, maybe there were a few actual JINR employees, but that's what screening is for.
I am a Russian scientist too (not CERN affiliated). I live in a European country since 2005. I donated many thousands dollars to Ukrainian causes, and brought hundreds of thousands of value with donations I organized. Now, my bank account is blocked just for the reason of my nationality, and my residence permit is not being renewed. Meanwhile, Russian oligarchs continue managing shadow fleets from European countries, and exchange millions of dollars freely (e.g. with Raiffeisen bank), and everybody knows that (I am not allowed, of course, to open any bank account, neither in Raiffeisen, not anywhere else in Europe). And many EU countries still pay hundreds of millions for Russian natural gas, and this money directly finance Russian military power.
I personally know Ukrainian scientists who lost their temporary protection permits too. Some of them moved back to war-thorn Ukraine, others went to other countries to try their luck there.
You can say "well, tough luck". But tough luck will be for many other people. Some Americans are now wondering why they are being turned away, asking "but we never voted for him!" And they weren't indeed. Judging people by their nationality is not good for everyone involved.
shivajikobardan · 3h ago
yea not gonna happen that easily lol
sschueller · 2h ago
With federal funding cuts across the board and people getting black bagged because of free speech I don't think it is that hard. Additionaly having the trump Admin now floating around the idea to suspend habious corpus why would you want to risk it?
kelnos · 1h ago
I think that's perhaps -- perhaps! -- true of US citizens who live in the US and have seen their research funding evaporate. I'm not a scientist, but if my job prospects in the US started getting really grim, I would still have a hard time leaving my home to work elsewhere. But I'd probably at least consider it.
But non-citizens, especially those who are being pushed to self-deport (or worse)...? I feel like something like this will be an easy sell for them.
manoweb · 20m ago
Hello, the self deport is for illegal aliens. There is no concern for who is in the USA with a valid visa to do science. In fact, the longest scientists and highly qualified people from Europe had to wait for a green card was under the Obama administration.
stop50 · 3h ago
True. The bargain sale has already started.
The challenge is to get the people to stay for an indefinite time.
fakedang · 28m ago
500 million for attracting the best academia is why Europe is a has-been and will continue to remain a has-been. The actual number should have been 50 billion, but Europe would rather spend that on consultants, policythinkers and thoughtleaders.
geremiiah · 1h ago
EU is offering what was on the table anyway. EU academia was always more accessible and less competitive than US academia, for obvious reasons. Downside of that is you get to work in environments with a sparser density of talent and accomplishments.
DrFalkyn · 1h ago
I thought it was the exact opposite. European universities were a lot harder to get a faculty appointment. And they tended to favor local candidates , Which is why you see a lot of US universities have foreign professors, but not as many European universities that do
geremiiah · 1h ago
I was not talking about faculty appointments, but more junior academics. For people at that level I would think it even less likely that they would upend their whole life like this. They are probably married with kids at that point.
DrFalkyn · 1h ago
In academia you are forced to go where the jobs are, or else you leave the field. Yes I have known people married with kids who move overseas
What I mean, is that for any international academic who has managed to get into US academia, it was always an option to consider Europe, where funding was always easier to get.
pavlov · 1h ago
That last part is what they're hoping will change now that the US has become hostile to foreign talent.
Anyway, I think this is smart. I live in Berlin and I noticed a bit of an uptick in the amount of US people coming this way lately. The politics in the US might have something to do with that. There's definitely an interest for people to leave there.
Also, the US has been leaning a lot on foreigners to keep its research departments going for decades now. Indians, Chinese, and indeed Europeans. If you look at Silicon Valley, there are a lot of immigrants running companies there. With all the madness around immigration in the US, it has become a bit less attractive as a country to move to. I think this is as much about making the EU a more attractive place to that group of people than it is about luring actual US citizens this way.
The EU has its own issues on immigration. But it's there and there are a lot of opportunities here. I noticed a sharp uptick in Indian job applications recently. There's a lot of talk about money. But most academics aren't on the huge fees you would need to sustain yourself in places with extremely high cost of living on the East and West coast.
Academics don't earn a lot in Europe. I used to be one. But you can live well on what you earn nevertheless.
How much does—or did, recently—the United States federal government invest in scientists in the USA? Is it ~$70 billion a year? [0]
Europe can achieve America's (past) results when Europe starts talking with money. Science migration has historically gone in one direction across the Atlantic, and it is 100% about who pays better. The EU isn't remotely close to funding its own scientists properly—let alone attract new ones from abroad!
If European science benefits from the ongoing government implosion in the USA, that'd be entirely due to the US' unforced error. EU's politicians deserve no credit.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_policy_of_the_United_S... ("Science policy of the United States")
I asked ChatGPT:
"Combining both EU-level and national R&D expenditures, the total R&D spending across the EU in 2023 was approximately €505 billion." But that appears to be total, both government and industry.
Spending by national government was apparently around € 123 billion. In addition, the EU spent ~ € 13 billion a year. So a total of € 136 billion in government spending.
https://www.eureporter.co/economy/eurostat-economy/2024/08/0...
https://eufunds.me/what-is-the-budget-of-horizon-europe/
The other numbers are valuable, since they come from actual sources.
Such is life when you can't infinitely print money for being the world reserve currency. When the whole world is buying your debt no questions asked, it's much easier to write some larger checks you know.
Some of the details are still being ironed out. The beauracracy is real! Even so, I guess the first emails will go out late next week.
Not just for this, same for finding startups, helping Ukraine or Palestine.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o.amp
- Europe has, sadly, also been the main sender of aid to, effectively, Hamas. I wish they would stop.
It's a marriage of convenience between states that know they are ignored if they speak on their own. But each of them sees all others as a way to amplify their own voice but surely not have an independent thought. It's the penultimate example of trying to herd cats.
Europe is good at commerce because it has to, the member states want to sell to each other. In the same way, it's bad at politics, military and vision because it still can afford to.
Europe keeps a ton of jobs gated behind language requirements. Sure, you'll get the most desperate people who need a visa this way, but Europe isn’t attracting top of the crop like the US this way.
Also, the red tape is brutal and everything requires six layers of bureaucracy. Even Amazon orders and customer service suck, but that's beside the point. It's way easier to get into a great US university and get funding for research. It's also easier to get a job afterward. The sheer number of opportunities, combined with the lack of a language barrier and less bureaucracy, makes the US better than all the other alternatives despite the poor transportation, weak social safety net, and terrible healthcare.
The language fragmentation certainly is an issue in the general workplace. But academia does use English as its lingua franca throughout most of the EU, though it might depend on the country. Certainly in places I've worked in academia - and yes, that has been in multiple countries in the EU - I've never had to utter a single word in something other than English in the workplace. But it is International English alright, which may be somewhat of a novelty to the native English speaker if they haven't been exposed.
> Even Amazon orders
That's wholly Amazon's problem. If I order something from BOL or Coolblue it arrives within 12-24 hours. Even small pop-and-mom webstores usually deliver within 1-2 business days. It's only Amazon that somehow manages to average more than a week (my last order at Amazon only arrived after 2 months. Guess why I no longer use their service).
No comments yet
Not where it isn't strictly necessary and I believe it is a good thing but I've seen english being used whenever people from multiple european countries are working with each other.
It is the case in IT and definitely the case in research too. Even 27 years ago when I was an intern in France, my office was next to the office of some mathematicians, I believe one japanese, a russian and another one I don't remember and they were all speaking in english.
Indeed: German is the most common first language of the EU, and French is the second-most common first language of the EU. [1] Let's from now on decide that all EU citizens have to speak one of these two languages. Language fragmentation problem solved. :-)
Or are you one of the nerds who lobbies for the idea that everybody should speak Esperanto.
Concerning the idea that "everybody in the EU should speak English": since UK left the EU, there exists no EU country anymore in which English is the only official language: only in Ireland and Malta, English is one of the official languages.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Unio...
There are plenty of European countries that do use English as the working language for technical fields, if there is not enough domestic talent.
What you say about the US research ecosystem may have been true until January 2025 but it is unfortuantely no longer the case. At the same time, the EU is finally getting its act together in both defense AND research funding. So I would forecast a sunnier future in Europe for scientists than the the US, at least for the next generation.
Care to elaborate? Last time I was in the US my prime order took over a week to be delivered because it had to get shipped from a warehouse in rural Ohio to San Diego. Here in Germany you get absolutely everything next day because the country is about the size of an average US state.
My problem with the post is that the claims are too broad to refute, but too FUD to not respond to.
If you want to get paid, by American standards, lower middle class wages, then sure, come to Europe. You can also enjoy arcane organizations and bureaucratic nightmares.
> an investment of 500 million euros between 2025 and 2027
That seems like nowhere near enough money, though. But I suppose it's better than nothing.
When Russian scientists were escaping the horrible realities of Putin's regime, had someone in Europe attempted to "lure" them? No, they were fired by hundreds [1] and students were not allowed anymore [2]. Not counting the immense indirect pressure like closing their bank accounts and not prolonging their existing residence documents even when they had jobs.
When Ukrainian scientists tried to escape the horrible war of aggression and cruelty that Russia brought on them, did someone try to "lure" them in? No, they had some charity help and some temporary programs, but mostly they get "emergency temporary" permits with the condition they have to go home afterwards. These temporary protection measures are now being phased out [3] and many Ukrainian scientists will be shown the door.
Now, American scientists are escaping the horrible realities of their regime. But for them, EU is much more friendlier and welcoming.
What is the difference?
[1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/science/cern-to-expel-500-russi...
[2] https://t-invariant.org/2024/12/swiss-cross-on-russian-stude...
[3] https://www.icmpd.org/blog/2025/phasing-out-temporary-protec...
I am a Russian scientist too (not CERN affiliated). I live in a European country since 2005. I donated many thousands dollars to Ukrainian causes, and brought hundreds of thousands of value with donations I organized. Now, my bank account is blocked just for the reason of my nationality, and my residence permit is not being renewed. Meanwhile, Russian oligarchs continue managing shadow fleets from European countries, and exchange millions of dollars freely (e.g. with Raiffeisen bank), and everybody knows that (I am not allowed, of course, to open any bank account, neither in Raiffeisen, not anywhere else in Europe). And many EU countries still pay hundreds of millions for Russian natural gas, and this money directly finance Russian military power.
I personally know Ukrainian scientists who lost their temporary protection permits too. Some of them moved back to war-thorn Ukraine, others went to other countries to try their luck there.
You can say "well, tough luck". But tough luck will be for many other people. Some Americans are now wondering why they are being turned away, asking "but we never voted for him!" And they weren't indeed. Judging people by their nationality is not good for everyone involved.
But non-citizens, especially those who are being pushed to self-deport (or worse)...? I feel like something like this will be an easy sell for them.