My department (at a Norwegian university) is working on a headhunting plan. The way the ERC grants are structured, the applicant needs a sponsoring institute. So, we are identifying researchers who are working on relevant topics, if we think it will be a good fit (and/or if we have successfully collaborated with them in the past).
Some of the details are still being ironed out. The beauracracy is real! Even so, I guess the first emails will go out late next week.
perihelions · 4h ago
You people are too good at critical thinking to read "an investment of 500 million euros between 2025 and 2027" and not instantly write this off as empty grandstanding.
How much does—or did, recently—the United States federal government invest in scientists in the USA? Is it ~$70 billion a year? [0]
Europe can achieve America's (past) results when Europe starts talking with money. Science migration has historically gone in one direction across the Atlantic, and it is 100% about who pays better. The EU isn't remotely close to funding its own scientists properly—let alone attract new ones from abroad!
If European science benefits from the ongoing government implosion in the USA, that'd be entirely due to the US' unforced error. EU's politicians deserve no credit.
This is not EU R&D budget. This is a small delta, extra funding specifically for attracting US scientists who are looking to move. Comparing this to the total expenditure by the US federal government seems...odd.
I asked ChatGPT:
"Combining both EU-level and national R&D expenditures, the total R&D spending across the EU in 2023 was approximately €505 billion." But that appears to be total, both government and industry.
Spending by national government was apparently around € 123 billion. In addition, the EU spent ~ € 13 billion a year. So a total of € 136 billion in government spending.
In the NSF's specific definition, the US greatly outspends the EU even normalizing by GDP—3.46% of GDP in the USA, against 2.16% in the EU-27.
(Notably, China also recently surpassed the EU, at 2.43%).
Eddy_Viscosity2 · 1h ago
The US is undoubtedly ahead at the moment, but the point is that this moment is developing into a turning point where the US is reducing science funding while simultaneously being openly hostile to both scientists and very concept of science itself. If US scientists feel this not just a transitory bump but a genuine change in the political climate going forward, then Europe is going to look inviting, especially if they start offering incentives.
mpweiher · 3h ago
Hmm...Wikipidea says "$135.110B in R&D spending" for federal funds.
Now that was 2015, but the number is very similar the EU figure of €136 billion.
There will be be differences, but the point stands that comparing the tiny delta provided by this specific program to total spending is not serious.
perihelions · 3h ago
Right; that's the federal government spending, while the other's combined R&D from all sources (aligning with 'mpweiher 's comment and their metric).
The nsf.gov page has a breakdown table, too, of government vs. industry spending.
mpweiher · 3h ago
That turns out not to be the case. The €136 billion was EU + national governments.
hnaccount_rng · 3h ago
I'm not sure if you can separate this as easily. In Germany for example a lot of funding comes through Max Planck institutes (and Fraunhofer and Leibniz centres and I' forgetting one), not sure if those are counted as government, but they are basically on par with the US national labs (but less military contacts)
Epa095 · 4h ago
I salute you for being open about the chatgpt use! Do you really trust what it says? That quoted chatgpt-number has zero value to me.
The other numbers are valuable, since they come from actual sources.
pqtyw · 3h ago
What if the links came from the ChatGPT answer as well?
Epa095 · 1h ago
For me that does not change anything really. I assert the trustworthyness of the webpage as usual.
My problem is the statement from chatgpt. I have seen it invent enough bullshit that if it was a person I would have labeled them as untrustworthy a long time ago. Yes yes, it's also amazing and all that jazz, but I still don't know how to trust a 'Chatgpt told me this' - quote.
pqtyw · 1h ago
I do get it. However it's hardly any different or less trustworthy than a random person making a random claim identical to what ChatGPT would say.
Of course a 'Chatgpt told me this' disclaimer does indicate something, i.e. either that person has no clue about the topic and is unable to verify the answer at least to some extent on their own and is just blindly copy pasting something and/or believes that anything LLMs say is inherently credible on its own without extra verification.
Gud · 1h ago
Then why even bother with the "I asked chatgpt"? Just cross reference the links and credit the original sources.
It just adds verbosity and doubt to the statement.
subscribed · 55m ago
It's well known for making the stuff up because this is how it works
The Guardian found a article attributed to them, generated (not "written") by chatgpt.
A silly lawyer got into trouble trying to use chatgpt-generated precedences in court.
Everything chatgpt prints out is made up, and that includes links.
Seriously, heed the warning the company itself prominently prints I app and in the webui.
Chatgpt may print out mostly true made-up sentences, but by definition, because oh how it works, it doesn't generate truth. It generates tokens that make up words.
Chatgpt is not a RAG, come on, it's 2025!
mpweiher · 3h ago
They did.
mpweiher · 3h ago
> Do you really trust what it says?
"Really trust"? Nope. But I think it gives me a good ballpark estimate and ways to check if that estimate is about right or not.
Checking the answer is quicker and potentially less error-prone than compiling the answer.
subscribed · 1h ago
Unless you verify the ballpark figure you shouldn't really use it in the conversation.
Chatgpt is a glorified autocomplete. Don't share it's output unverified like that was some sort of an oracle.
If you really HAVE TO resort to "AI", at least use Perplexity.
Epa095 · 1h ago
Ok, so did you verify the 500 billion? If so, then that's really the relevant part for me. But then I trust you, not Chatgpt.
rad_gruchalski · 23m ago
Where did you take the 500 billion figure from?
Epa095 · 6m ago
It's from the chatgpt quote my comment was an comment to: "[...] in 2023 was approximately €505 billion"
geremiiah · 2h ago
It's about money and everything else too. US is a really nice country to live in for high skilled individuals. An immigrant nation who speaks the international language, a fast growing economy, especially in cutting edge tech, with overall taxes lower than Europe and even the housing market crisis is not at bad as what you will encounter in many European cities. And its huge so for a lot of emigrants looking for a new home, they will tend towards the country with the huge economy so that when they get their new passport it will be worth something.
The only downside of the US was always the immigration system.
From a purely financial perspective, a country like Denmark for example, would need to pay more than the US to be as attractive, to account for the fact that it is a tiny country where the main language is not English and where the overall career prospects are more limited.
yread · 2h ago
> to be attractive
For people who value money over everything else
geremiiah · 2h ago
My post was arguing that the "everything else" is more attractive in the US.
Consider a post doc or junior professor who do not know if they will ever get a tenure position or if you even want to remain in academia their whole life. Their plan B is to get an job in industry. Now consider having access to the whole US job market vs. having access to one tiny EU country. Not to mention that when you bias for cutting edge industry R&D there are industries which only have a significant presence in the US.
JimTheMan · 2h ago
They have access to the whole European union?
People value not having to step over the homeless to get to work, lower crime, free healthcare, no risk of deportation for having a view on Palestine etc etc
> People value not having to step over the homeless to get to work
Better stay away from Paris, then.
squigz · 34m ago
Don't most people in Denmark - and pretty much all Nordic countries - speak English?
fxtentacle · 4h ago
I believe the goal of this initiative is not to create a better offer in Europe. It's to remind US scientists that US funding has been axed.
rad_gruchalski · 38m ago
Yeah, but who cares about that higher salary when the risk is that you get a random letter saying “self-deport or who knows maybe we send you to some prison in Ecuador”.
surgical_fire · 4h ago
> You people are too good at critical thinking to read "an investment of 500 million euros between 2025 and 2027" and not instantly write this off as empty grandstanding.
Such is life when you can't infinitely print money for being the world reserve currency. When the whole world is buying your debt no questions asked, it's much easier to write some larger checks you know.
Zenul_Abidin · 4h ago
Yeah I see this initiative only bringing in a few US scientists, specifically the more politically-inclined ones.
Onavo · 1h ago
How does China's compare in absolute terms after adjusting for purchasing power?
chaosbolt · 1h ago
100% about everything you said.
My cousin studied at Ecole Polytechnique, then did a phd at another top french school and become a professor there.
He has 6 articles publishes in the top 3 Math/CS/AI conferences.
He was literally paid 45k€ a year, before taxes and other things, that's 2300€ a month after taxes, his rent was 1100€ because it's Paris, now Polytechnique has one of the hardest math/physics entrance exams in the world, and he published more papers and in more prestigious conferences than most of his colleagues.
He took a couple months to leetcode then got the fuck out to the US, his salary now is legit an order of magnitude higher than what it was, doesn'r have to think about food, transportation, still gets to do research, etc.
I mean you can be as patriotic as you want but when it's that different who's gonna stay here...
rad_gruchalski · 19m ago
Did he “fuck out to the US” to work in privately owned businesses, or comparable university job? What prevented your friend to “fuck out” to a private business in the EU?
fooker · 4h ago
Europe does every thing except the only needed thing, paying up.
Not just for this, same for finding startups, helping Ukraine or Palestine.
thebruce87m · 4h ago
Seems like Europe has provided a bigger chunk than the US for Ukraine, unless you think it should be even more than that?
- Europe has, sadly, also been the main sender of aid to, effectively, Hamas. I wish they would stop.
BrawnyBadger53 · 24m ago
Food and water aid being controversial is a bit ridiculous to me.
pavlov · 3h ago
Is the answer really to stop sending aid to a million children in distress and for Europe to look the other way as Netanyahu and Trump proceed with the full-scale ethnic cleansing they’ve proudly announced with AI-generated videos?
I don’t have an answer, but there has to be some other option.
hyperman1 · 4h ago
It's worse. There is no Europe. There is no one who can decide to pay.
It's a marriage of convenience between states that know they are ignored if they speak on their own. But each of them sees all others as a way to amplify their own voice but surely not have an independent thought. It's the penultimate example of trying to herd cats.
Europe is good at commerce because it has to, the member states want to sell to each other. In the same way, it's bad at politics, military and vision because it still can afford to.
continuational · 4h ago
The EU spends as much as the US on Ukraine, and about twice as much if you count refugee aid.
constantcrying · 4h ago
Europe needs to do exactly one thing. Stop paying for everything.
jillesvangurp · 3h ago
The article seems to be in Spanish?
Anyway, I think this is smart. I live in Berlin and I noticed a bit of an uptick in the amount of US people coming this way lately. The politics in the US might have something to do with that. There's definitely an interest for people to leave there.
Also, the US has been leaning a lot on foreigners to keep its research departments going for decades now. Indians, Chinese, and indeed Europeans. If you look at Silicon Valley, there are a lot of immigrants running companies there. With all the madness around immigration in the US, it has become a bit less attractive as a country to move to. I think this is as much about making the EU a more attractive place to that group of people than it is about luring actual US citizens this way.
The EU has its own issues on immigration. But it's there and there are a lot of opportunities here. I noticed a sharp uptick in Indian job applications recently. There's a lot of talk about money. But most academics aren't on the huge fees you would need to sustain yourself in places with extremely high cost of living on the East and West coast.
Academics don't earn a lot in Europe. I used to be one. But you can live well on what you earn nevertheless.
constantcrying · 4h ago
I see great success for this programs, if they can avoid telling these scientists what they are going to get paid or how much taxes they will have to pay.
If you want to get paid, by American standards, lower middle class wages, then sure, come to Europe. You can also enjoy arcane organizations and bureaucratic nightmares.
mdhb · 3h ago
You say this like the threat of getting sent to the gulag without any possible recourse isn’t the other option in this scenario. This isn’t a hard decision.
kelnos · 5h ago
No surprise there, and a very smart move. I'm disgusted that my country is telling the world it doesn't want to be a leader in scientific research anymore, but all these people will certainly find a place to do their research somewhere else.
> an investment of 500 million euros between 2025 and 2027
That seems like nowhere near enough money, though. But I suppose it's better than nothing.
Yeul · 3h ago
You come to the Netherlands because you want to live in a country free from religion and fascism. And don't worry there's money too.
atemerev · 4h ago
Oh well.
When Russian scientists were escaping the horrible realities of Putin's regime, had someone in Europe attempted to "lure" them? No, they were fired by hundreds [1] and students were not allowed anymore [2]. Not counting the immense indirect pressure like closing their bank accounts and not prolonging their existing residence documents even when they had jobs.
When Ukrainian scientists tried to escape the horrible war of aggression and cruelty that Russia brought on them, did someone try to "lure" them in? No, they had some charity help and some temporary programs, but mostly they get "emergency temporary" permits with the condition they have to go home afterwards. These temporary protection measures are now being phased out [3] and many Ukrainian scientists will be shown the door.
Now, American scientists are escaping the horrible realities of their regime. But for them, EU is much more friendlier and welcoming.
It's quite misleading to refer to them as "escaping the horrible realities of Putin's regime" like they were some kind of defectors, when according to your source they were all working as representatives of Russian labs, and most weren't based at CERN itself. It was the cooperation with the affiliated labs that was terminated. Russian citizens affiliated to non-Russian labs were allowed to stay.
atemerev · 4h ago
Russia was not a member of CERN, so most Russian physicists worked there on (fake-ish, for documents only) exchange programs with JINR Russia. Most of them were living in France or Switzerland for many years. Given the opportunity, every single one of them would have changed the affiliation, but CERN only agreed to employ them this way (unless they find an actual academic position in an actual European university on a short notice, which is next to impossible). Okay, maybe there were a few actual JINR employees, but that what screening is for.
I am a Russian scientist too (not CERN affiliated). I live in a European country since 2005. I donated many thousands dollars to Ukrainian causes, and brought hundreds of thousands of value with donations I organized. Now, my bank account is blocked just for the reason of my nationality, and my residence permit is not being renewed. Meanwhile, Russian oligarchs continue managing shadow fleets from European countries, and exchange millions of dollars freely (e.g. with Raiffeisen bank), and everybody knows that (I am not allowed, of course, to open any bank account, neither in Raiffeisen, not anywhere else in Europe). And many EU countries still pay hundreds of millions for Russian natural gas, and this money directly finance Russian military power.
I personally know Ukrainian scientists who lost their temporary protection permits too. Some of them moved back to war-thorn Ukraine, others went to other countries to try their luck there.
You can say "well, tough luck". But tough luck will be for many other people. Some Americans are now wondering why they are being turned away, asking "but we never voted for him!" And they weren't indeed. Judging people by their nationality is not good for everyone involved.
usrnm · 3h ago
> What is the difference?
Neither Russia nor Ukraine are currently known for their bleeding-edge scientific research, and I'm saying this as a Russian myself. I'm sorry but almost everyone who was worth their salt left both countries long before 2022.
egisspegis · 3h ago
> What is the difference?
Maybe the difference is the fact that russia invaded Ukraine and is murdering, raping and pillaging there? Or maybe the fact that most of russian society is actively supporting that invasion? But those are just my opinion.
I guess we'll never now what's the difference :)
atemerev · 1h ago
Well, American society supports Trump, right? and Trump wants to invade Canada and Denmark.
No, "Russian society" is not a monolith supporting the war of aggression. Just like American society is not all like their government officials and quite many people there do not support the autocratic course. Though yes, even here on Hacker News you can meet supporters of both. Sadly.
Yes, it is alarming that many people in Russia support their government. Just as it is alarming for the US. Or any other autocratic country. This isn't a blanket permission to call "all Russians" or "all Americans" or "all Israeli" or "all Palestinians" or "all immigrants" (insert your pejorative of the day).
shivajikobardan · 7h ago
yea not gonna happen that easily lol
sschueller · 6h ago
With federal funding cuts across the board and people getting black bagged because of free speech I don't think it is that hard. Additionaly having the trump Admin now floating around the idea to suspend habious corpus why would you want to risk it?
kelnos · 5h ago
I think that's perhaps -- perhaps! -- true of US citizens who live in the US and have seen their research funding evaporate. I'm not a scientist, but if my job prospects in the US started getting really grim, I would still have a hard time leaving my home to work elsewhere. But I'd probably at least consider it.
But non-citizens, especially those who are being pushed to self-deport (or worse)...? I feel like something like this will be an easy sell for them.
manoweb · 4h ago
Hello, the self deport is for illegal aliens. There is no concern for who is in the USA with a valid visa to do science. In fact, the longest scientists and highly qualified people from Europe had to wait for a green card was under the Obama administration.
stop50 · 6h ago
True. The bargain sale has already started.
The challenge is to get the people to stay for an indefinite time.
fakedang · 4h ago
500 million for attracting the best academia is why Europe is a has-been and will continue to remain a has-been. The actual number should have been 50 billion, but Europe would rather spend that on consultants, policythinkers and thoughtleaders.
geremiiah · 5h ago
EU is offering what was on the table anyway. EU academia was always more accessible and less competitive than US academia, for obvious reasons. Downside of that is you get to work in environments with a sparser density of talent and accomplishments.
DrFalkyn · 5h ago
I thought it was the exact opposite. European universities were a lot harder to get a faculty appointment. And they tended to favor local candidates , Which is why you see a lot of US universities have foreign professors, but not as many European universities that do
geremiiah · 4h ago
I was not talking about faculty appointments, but more junior academics. For people at that level I would think it even less likely that they would upend their whole life like this. They are probably married with kids at that point.
DrFalkyn · 4h ago
In academia you are forced to go where the jobs are, or else you leave the field. Yes I have known people married with kids who move overseas
What I mean, is that for any international academic who has managed to get into US academia, it was always an option to consider Europe, where funding was always easier to get.
pavlov · 5h ago
That last part is what they're hoping will change now that the US has become hostile to foreign talent.
bgwalter · 1h ago
The European elites will do anything to decrease job chances for their native populations.
rednafi · 5h ago
Europe really needs to fix the funding issue and language fragmentation. Otherwise there's no "luring people in." Every time someone brings this up, a bunch of people are like, "Have you ever worked in the EU? They all speak English at work." Yes, I have, and also on three other continents. Europe hasn’t adopted English at work that much, and no one I know is excited about dealing with racism, picking up the local language while doing high-octane white-collar jobs or research.
Europe keeps a ton of jobs gated behind language requirements. Sure, you'll get the most desperate people who need a visa this way, but Europe isn’t attracting top of the crop like the US this way.
Also, the red tape is brutal and everything requires six layers of bureaucracy. Even Amazon orders and customer service suck, but that's beside the point. It's way easier to get into a great US university and get funding for research. It's also easier to get a job afterward. The sheer number of opportunities, combined with the lack of a language barrier and less bureaucracy, makes the US better than all the other alternatives despite the poor transportation, weak social safety net, and terrible healthcare.
aden1ne · 4h ago
> Europe really needs to fix the funding issue and language fragmentation.
The language fragmentation certainly is an issue in the general workplace. But academia does use English as its lingua franca throughout most of the EU, though it might depend on the country. Certainly in places I've worked in academia - and yes, that has been in multiple countries in the EU - I've never had to utter a single word in something other than English in the workplace. But it is International English alright, which may be somewhat of a novelty to the native English speaker if they haven't been exposed.
> Even Amazon orders
That's wholly Amazon's problem. If I order something from BOL or Coolblue it arrives within 12-24 hours. Even small pop-and-mom webstores usually deliver within 1-2 business days. It's only Amazon that somehow manages to average more than a week (my last order at Amazon only arrived after 2 months. Guess why I no longer use their service).
NotOscarWilde · 3h ago
> I've worked in academia - and yes, that has been in multiple countries in the EU - I've never had to utter a single word in something other than English in the workplace.
I have the same trajectory as you -- multiple countries in the EU, working in academia -- but different experiences for sure. Or at least a mixed bag.
Let me list them in order of how much English sufficed:
1. The Netherlands -- common knowledge is that their English is top notch and anecdotally it was the case as well, I also got by purely with English.
2. Germany -- their English is also good but I needed German in edge cases. One edge case was finding an apartment (not speaking German simply pushed you down the list of candidates, even with a full time job in academia). Another one were university rules and announcements; not every email was in English, but arguably easy to get by with modern translation tools.
3. Czechia & Poland -- English is good among the professors but the percentage of locals at the university level is so high that most internal meetings, announcements, local seminars take place in the local language. In my experience, non-faculty university staff (department secretaries, payroll, entrance security) usually strongly dislike speaking English or outright do not speak it at all.
---
I've omitted some more cases where local languages are required. If you live in a country, you will eventually interact with the healthcare sector, where the language experience will likely mimic the experience at the workplace (for the countries above, it would be in the same order for the healthcare sector).
Another case is government bureaucracy. For most of the EU countries I've been to, the official language of the country is their local language and only their local language. This means that government employees are not required to speak any other language other than the official one to you, plus you might be required to fill in forms and communicate in the official language if you want to talk to them.
In my experience, the helpful/good ones may try to communicate with you in English but if you need something from them or if the bureaucrat had a bad day, you better start talking in the official language.
aden1ne · 1h ago
> Another case is government bureaucracy. For most of the EU countries I've been to, the official language of the country is their local language and only their local language. This means that government employees are not required to speak any other language other than the official one to you, plus you might be required to fill in forms and communicate in the official language if you want to talk to them.
This is true, and something I have indeed experienced. However, this is likely true for _any_ country where English is not the official language, not just those in the EU. Besides, understanding bureaucratic lingo is not just a matter of pure linguistics. Governmental concepts rarely translate 1:1 to another nation, even those with the same official language. If you migrate to another country, part and parcel of the experience is that you _must_ contend with bureaucratic principles, rules and institutes with which you are not familiar. There is no escaping that.
That said, at least here in the Netherlands, there is certainly a movement to provide more and more governmental information in English as well. I'm not going to dox myself, but for example my muni's English website looks nigh-identical to the Dutch one.
prmoustache · 5h ago
> Europe hasn’t adopted English at work that much
Not where it isn't strictly necessary and I believe it is a good thing but I've seen english being used whenever people from multiple european countries are working with each other.
It is the case in IT and definitely the case in research too. Even 27 years ago when I was an intern in France, my office was next to the office of some mathematicians, I believe one japanese, a russian and another one I don't remember and they were all speaking in english.
klunger · 5h ago
This reads like a bitter ex-employee. I guess you were in Germany?
There are plenty of European countries that do use English as the working language for technical fields, if there is not enough domestic talent.
What you say about the US research ecosystem may have been true until January 2025 but it is unfortuantely no longer the case. At the same time, the EU is finally getting its act together in both defense AND research funding. So I would forecast a sunnier future in Europe for scientists than the the US, at least for the next generation.
ykonstant · 4h ago
I don't know about defense, but on mathstodon people are having bitter laughs over the "500 million for research", when the UK alone with its faltering economy manages to get multiple times that in the same time frame.
alternatex · 3h ago
Is it 500 million for research or 500 million for luring US researchers to Europe? They are vastly different things so we need to be on the same page for this to be a productive discussion.
peer2pay · 4h ago
Out of everything wrong in this comment the funniest one is "Even Amazon orders […] suck"
Care to elaborate? Last time I was in the US my prime order took over a week to be delivered because it had to get shipped from a warehouse in rural Ohio to San Diego.
Here in Germany you get absolutely everything next day because the country is about the size of an average US state.
eGP9jDq_nw · 1h ago
Europe's cultural and linguistic diversity is a feature, not a bug. Anyone unwilling to acquire a nation's national tongue is unfit for migration to begin with and the primary cause for rising anti-migration sentiment across the continent
aleph_minus_one · 4h ago
> Europe really needs to fix the funding issue and language fragmentation.
Indeed: German is the most common first language of the EU, and French is the second-most common first language of the EU. [1] Let's from now on decide that all EU citizens have to speak one of these two languages. Language fragmentation problem solved. :-)
Or are you one of the nerds who lobbies for the idea that everybody should speak Esperanto.
Concerning the idea that "everybody in the EU should speak English": since UK left the EU, there exists no EU country anymore in which English is the only official language: only in Ireland and Malta, English is one of the official languages.
Drawing on one or even a few experiences for a conclusion for all of Europe in all sectors is a bit much. Scientific Organizations are not looking for local language skills. Many are in Germany which is very bureaucratic about other aspects of life, but they all spend their time on standardized International bureaucracy. The Universities in other countries might be harder to get in to, yet I wouldn't buy a $250k US University scratch ticket in a field like science. (The US University is a particularly poor investment for less qualified students.)
hnhg · 5h ago
Which part of Europe? It really doesn't make sense to generalise such a diverse set of countries. Can you be more specific?
MattPalmer1086 · 4h ago
It may have been easier to get funding for research in the US, but that's looking a bit harder right now, no?
viraptor · 5h ago
Holy mother of generalisations. I'm not even going to try addressing separate things.
My problem with the post is that the claims are too broad to refute, but too FUD to not respond to.
Some of the details are still being ironed out. The beauracracy is real! Even so, I guess the first emails will go out late next week.
How much does—or did, recently—the United States federal government invest in scientists in the USA? Is it ~$70 billion a year? [0]
Europe can achieve America's (past) results when Europe starts talking with money. Science migration has historically gone in one direction across the Atlantic, and it is 100% about who pays better. The EU isn't remotely close to funding its own scientists properly—let alone attract new ones from abroad!
If European science benefits from the ongoing government implosion in the USA, that'd be entirely due to the US' unforced error. EU's politicians deserve no credit.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_policy_of_the_United_S... ("Science policy of the United States")
I asked ChatGPT:
"Combining both EU-level and national R&D expenditures, the total R&D spending across the EU in 2023 was approximately €505 billion." But that appears to be total, both government and industry.
Spending by national government was apparently around € 123 billion. In addition, the EU spent ~ € 13 billion a year. So a total of € 136 billion in government spending.
https://www.eureporter.co/economy/eurostat-economy/2024/08/0...
https://eufunds.me/what-is-the-budget-of-horizon-europe/
irony alert
https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20246/cross-national-compariso... ("Cross-National Comparisons of R&D Performance" (2024))
In the NSF's specific definition, the US greatly outspends the EU even normalizing by GDP—3.46% of GDP in the USA, against 2.16% in the EU-27.
(Notably, China also recently surpassed the EU, at 2.43%).
Now that was 2015, but the number is very similar the EU figure of €136 billion.
There will be be differences, but the point stands that comparing the tiny delta provided by this specific program to total spending is not serious.
The nsf.gov page has a breakdown table, too, of government vs. industry spending.
The other numbers are valuable, since they come from actual sources.
My problem is the statement from chatgpt. I have seen it invent enough bullshit that if it was a person I would have labeled them as untrustworthy a long time ago. Yes yes, it's also amazing and all that jazz, but I still don't know how to trust a 'Chatgpt told me this' - quote.
Of course a 'Chatgpt told me this' disclaimer does indicate something, i.e. either that person has no clue about the topic and is unable to verify the answer at least to some extent on their own and is just blindly copy pasting something and/or believes that anything LLMs say is inherently credible on its own without extra verification.
The Guardian found a article attributed to them, generated (not "written") by chatgpt.
A silly lawyer got into trouble trying to use chatgpt-generated precedences in court.
Everything chatgpt prints out is made up, and that includes links.
Seriously, heed the warning the company itself prominently prints I app and in the webui.
Chatgpt may print out mostly true made-up sentences, but by definition, because oh how it works, it doesn't generate truth. It generates tokens that make up words.
Chatgpt is not a RAG, come on, it's 2025!
"Really trust"? Nope. But I think it gives me a good ballpark estimate and ways to check if that estimate is about right or not.
Checking the answer is quicker and potentially less error-prone than compiling the answer.
Chatgpt is a glorified autocomplete. Don't share it's output unverified like that was some sort of an oracle.
If you really HAVE TO resort to "AI", at least use Perplexity.
From a purely financial perspective, a country like Denmark for example, would need to pay more than the US to be as attractive, to account for the fact that it is a tiny country where the main language is not English and where the overall career prospects are more limited.
For people who value money over everything else
Consider a post doc or junior professor who do not know if they will ever get a tenure position or if you even want to remain in academia their whole life. Their plan B is to get an job in industry. Now consider having access to the whole US job market vs. having access to one tiny EU country. Not to mention that when you bias for cutting edge industry R&D there are industries which only have a significant presence in the US.
People value not having to step over the homeless to get to work, lower crime, free healthcare, no risk of deportation for having a view on Palestine etc etc
The US isn't that pleasant of a place to live.
Only if they are EU citizens.
> People value not having to step over the homeless to get to work
Better stay away from Paris, then.
Such is life when you can't infinitely print money for being the world reserve currency. When the whole world is buying your debt no questions asked, it's much easier to write some larger checks you know.
My cousin studied at Ecole Polytechnique, then did a phd at another top french school and become a professor there.
He has 6 articles publishes in the top 3 Math/CS/AI conferences.
He was literally paid 45k€ a year, before taxes and other things, that's 2300€ a month after taxes, his rent was 1100€ because it's Paris, now Polytechnique has one of the hardest math/physics entrance exams in the world, and he published more papers and in more prestigious conferences than most of his colleagues.
He took a couple months to leetcode then got the fuck out to the US, his salary now is legit an order of magnitude higher than what it was, doesn'r have to think about food, transportation, still gets to do research, etc.
I mean you can be as patriotic as you want but when it's that different who's gonna stay here...
Not just for this, same for finding startups, helping Ukraine or Palestine.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o.amp
- Europe has, sadly, also been the main sender of aid to, effectively, Hamas. I wish they would stop.
I don’t have an answer, but there has to be some other option.
It's a marriage of convenience between states that know they are ignored if they speak on their own. But each of them sees all others as a way to amplify their own voice but surely not have an independent thought. It's the penultimate example of trying to herd cats.
Europe is good at commerce because it has to, the member states want to sell to each other. In the same way, it's bad at politics, military and vision because it still can afford to.
Anyway, I think this is smart. I live in Berlin and I noticed a bit of an uptick in the amount of US people coming this way lately. The politics in the US might have something to do with that. There's definitely an interest for people to leave there.
Also, the US has been leaning a lot on foreigners to keep its research departments going for decades now. Indians, Chinese, and indeed Europeans. If you look at Silicon Valley, there are a lot of immigrants running companies there. With all the madness around immigration in the US, it has become a bit less attractive as a country to move to. I think this is as much about making the EU a more attractive place to that group of people than it is about luring actual US citizens this way.
The EU has its own issues on immigration. But it's there and there are a lot of opportunities here. I noticed a sharp uptick in Indian job applications recently. There's a lot of talk about money. But most academics aren't on the huge fees you would need to sustain yourself in places with extremely high cost of living on the East and West coast.
Academics don't earn a lot in Europe. I used to be one. But you can live well on what you earn nevertheless.
If you want to get paid, by American standards, lower middle class wages, then sure, come to Europe. You can also enjoy arcane organizations and bureaucratic nightmares.
> an investment of 500 million euros between 2025 and 2027
That seems like nowhere near enough money, though. But I suppose it's better than nothing.
When Russian scientists were escaping the horrible realities of Putin's regime, had someone in Europe attempted to "lure" them? No, they were fired by hundreds [1] and students were not allowed anymore [2]. Not counting the immense indirect pressure like closing their bank accounts and not prolonging their existing residence documents even when they had jobs.
When Ukrainian scientists tried to escape the horrible war of aggression and cruelty that Russia brought on them, did someone try to "lure" them in? No, they had some charity help and some temporary programs, but mostly they get "emergency temporary" permits with the condition they have to go home afterwards. These temporary protection measures are now being phased out [3] and many Ukrainian scientists will be shown the door.
Now, American scientists are escaping the horrible realities of their regime. But for them, EU is much more friendlier and welcoming.
What is the difference?
[1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/science/cern-to-expel-500-russi...
[2] https://t-invariant.org/2024/12/swiss-cross-on-russian-stude...
[3] https://www.icmpd.org/blog/2025/phasing-out-temporary-protec...
I am a Russian scientist too (not CERN affiliated). I live in a European country since 2005. I donated many thousands dollars to Ukrainian causes, and brought hundreds of thousands of value with donations I organized. Now, my bank account is blocked just for the reason of my nationality, and my residence permit is not being renewed. Meanwhile, Russian oligarchs continue managing shadow fleets from European countries, and exchange millions of dollars freely (e.g. with Raiffeisen bank), and everybody knows that (I am not allowed, of course, to open any bank account, neither in Raiffeisen, not anywhere else in Europe). And many EU countries still pay hundreds of millions for Russian natural gas, and this money directly finance Russian military power.
I personally know Ukrainian scientists who lost their temporary protection permits too. Some of them moved back to war-thorn Ukraine, others went to other countries to try their luck there.
You can say "well, tough luck". But tough luck will be for many other people. Some Americans are now wondering why they are being turned away, asking "but we never voted for him!" And they weren't indeed. Judging people by their nationality is not good for everyone involved.
Neither Russia nor Ukraine are currently known for their bleeding-edge scientific research, and I'm saying this as a Russian myself. I'm sorry but almost everyone who was worth their salt left both countries long before 2022.
Maybe the difference is the fact that russia invaded Ukraine and is murdering, raping and pillaging there? Or maybe the fact that most of russian society is actively supporting that invasion? But those are just my opinion. I guess we'll never now what's the difference :)
No, "Russian society" is not a monolith supporting the war of aggression. Just like American society is not all like their government officials and quite many people there do not support the autocratic course. Though yes, even here on Hacker News you can meet supporters of both. Sadly.
Yes, it is alarming that many people in Russia support their government. Just as it is alarming for the US. Or any other autocratic country. This isn't a blanket permission to call "all Russians" or "all Americans" or "all Israeli" or "all Palestinians" or "all immigrants" (insert your pejorative of the day).
But non-citizens, especially those who are being pushed to self-deport (or worse)...? I feel like something like this will be an easy sell for them.
Europe keeps a ton of jobs gated behind language requirements. Sure, you'll get the most desperate people who need a visa this way, but Europe isn’t attracting top of the crop like the US this way.
Also, the red tape is brutal and everything requires six layers of bureaucracy. Even Amazon orders and customer service suck, but that's beside the point. It's way easier to get into a great US university and get funding for research. It's also easier to get a job afterward. The sheer number of opportunities, combined with the lack of a language barrier and less bureaucracy, makes the US better than all the other alternatives despite the poor transportation, weak social safety net, and terrible healthcare.
The language fragmentation certainly is an issue in the general workplace. But academia does use English as its lingua franca throughout most of the EU, though it might depend on the country. Certainly in places I've worked in academia - and yes, that has been in multiple countries in the EU - I've never had to utter a single word in something other than English in the workplace. But it is International English alright, which may be somewhat of a novelty to the native English speaker if they haven't been exposed.
> Even Amazon orders
That's wholly Amazon's problem. If I order something from BOL or Coolblue it arrives within 12-24 hours. Even small pop-and-mom webstores usually deliver within 1-2 business days. It's only Amazon that somehow manages to average more than a week (my last order at Amazon only arrived after 2 months. Guess why I no longer use their service).
I have the same trajectory as you -- multiple countries in the EU, working in academia -- but different experiences for sure. Or at least a mixed bag.
Let me list them in order of how much English sufficed:
1. The Netherlands -- common knowledge is that their English is top notch and anecdotally it was the case as well, I also got by purely with English.
2. Germany -- their English is also good but I needed German in edge cases. One edge case was finding an apartment (not speaking German simply pushed you down the list of candidates, even with a full time job in academia). Another one were university rules and announcements; not every email was in English, but arguably easy to get by with modern translation tools.
3. Czechia & Poland -- English is good among the professors but the percentage of locals at the university level is so high that most internal meetings, announcements, local seminars take place in the local language. In my experience, non-faculty university staff (department secretaries, payroll, entrance security) usually strongly dislike speaking English or outright do not speak it at all.
---
I've omitted some more cases where local languages are required. If you live in a country, you will eventually interact with the healthcare sector, where the language experience will likely mimic the experience at the workplace (for the countries above, it would be in the same order for the healthcare sector).
Another case is government bureaucracy. For most of the EU countries I've been to, the official language of the country is their local language and only their local language. This means that government employees are not required to speak any other language other than the official one to you, plus you might be required to fill in forms and communicate in the official language if you want to talk to them.
In my experience, the helpful/good ones may try to communicate with you in English but if you need something from them or if the bureaucrat had a bad day, you better start talking in the official language.
This is true, and something I have indeed experienced. However, this is likely true for _any_ country where English is not the official language, not just those in the EU. Besides, understanding bureaucratic lingo is not just a matter of pure linguistics. Governmental concepts rarely translate 1:1 to another nation, even those with the same official language. If you migrate to another country, part and parcel of the experience is that you _must_ contend with bureaucratic principles, rules and institutes with which you are not familiar. There is no escaping that.
That said, at least here in the Netherlands, there is certainly a movement to provide more and more governmental information in English as well. I'm not going to dox myself, but for example my muni's English website looks nigh-identical to the Dutch one.
Not where it isn't strictly necessary and I believe it is a good thing but I've seen english being used whenever people from multiple european countries are working with each other.
It is the case in IT and definitely the case in research too. Even 27 years ago when I was an intern in France, my office was next to the office of some mathematicians, I believe one japanese, a russian and another one I don't remember and they were all speaking in english.
There are plenty of European countries that do use English as the working language for technical fields, if there is not enough domestic talent.
What you say about the US research ecosystem may have been true until January 2025 but it is unfortuantely no longer the case. At the same time, the EU is finally getting its act together in both defense AND research funding. So I would forecast a sunnier future in Europe for scientists than the the US, at least for the next generation.
Care to elaborate? Last time I was in the US my prime order took over a week to be delivered because it had to get shipped from a warehouse in rural Ohio to San Diego. Here in Germany you get absolutely everything next day because the country is about the size of an average US state.
Indeed: German is the most common first language of the EU, and French is the second-most common first language of the EU. [1] Let's from now on decide that all EU citizens have to speak one of these two languages. Language fragmentation problem solved. :-)
Or are you one of the nerds who lobbies for the idea that everybody should speak Esperanto.
Concerning the idea that "everybody in the EU should speak English": since UK left the EU, there exists no EU country anymore in which English is the only official language: only in Ireland and Malta, English is one of the official languages.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Unio...
My problem with the post is that the claims are too broad to refute, but too FUD to not respond to.