Back in school I was often told the lead pipes in Roman aqueducts likely played a key role in the fall of Roman. We know lead is a poison with negative long term effects on cognition.
The aqueducts were also responsible for Romes ability to proliferate and grow. Lead was both a blessing and a curse.
I wonder what future generations will say about our highly enriched and processed diets. Calories have never been cheaper and food is ubiquitous. However I believe our food is playing a huge role in our degraded health.
It’s not surprising that most studies looking at the consumption of unprocessed food, fresh fruit and vegetables show benefits to our health.
The challenge is how do we get this food in the hands of those who need it cheaply and without sacrificing the nutritional (and microbial) content.
papercrane · 2h ago
The lead pipes theory is mostly just pop-science. Romans were likely getting more lead exposure from using lead cooking vessels and utensils.
didgeoridoo · 2h ago
Plus literally “flavoring” their wine on purpose with lead acetate.
MengerSponge · 1h ago
And that was the first and last time that no-calorie sweeteners had deleterious population-level effects
lotsofpulp · 1h ago
High calorie sweeteners have deleterious population-level effects.
Is there any evidence that modern low calorie sweeteners have deleterious population-level effects, and what are they compared to high calorie sweeteners?
briankelly · 4m ago
I wonder if any Romans evidence had any evidence of population-level delirium from lead consumption...
cjbgkagh · 22m ago
Anecdotally I get gut dybiosis (microbiome imbalance) that notably only occurs when using artificial sweeteners and stops when I stop taking it, I’ve talked to many others who have noticed the same thing. Gut dysbiosis can cause chronic systemic inflammation which is rather bad for the body, not sure if it’s worse than the sugar it replaces, but it shouldn’t be assumed that the problem is solved by low calories. I think it’s important to limit both, preferably to near zero.
edwardbernays · 2h ago
So is the idea that widespread lead exposure led to the decline of the Roman empire largely pop science? Are you saying that's not accurate, or that the source of the lead exposure is miscounted?
Quarrel · 1h ago
Yes, that is the modern understanding. Widespread lead exposure had very little / nothing to do with the decline the Roman Empire.
Isamu · 51m ago
Plus to prove the lead connection you have to discount the centuries of Roman dominance and growth during which lead exposure was common.
Etheryte · 25m ago
The lead pipe thing is one of the best known urban legends that's both completely false and also constantly making rounds on the internet.
SapporoChris · 5m ago
Not sure where you get completely false. Like most urban legends it's a little truth and a lot of falsehoods. Lead pipes are a known health hazard. Lead pipes didn't lead to the fall of the Roman Empire.
giantg2 · 1h ago
"Back in school I was often told the lead pipes in Roman aqueducts likely played a key role in the fall of Roman. We know lead is a poison with negative long term effects on cognition."
I highly doubt there was much effect from the pipes. They would quickly be sealed in mineral scale. Cups or utensils - maybe, but would be more about specific important people using them rather than being widespread.
MengerSponge · 1h ago
Wine (and grape juice) was cooked in lead vessels, which generates Lead(II) Acetate aka Sugar of Lead. They lead poisoned themselves coming and going.
It should be noted that juice is a highly-processed food. It concentrates the sugar, vitamin, mineral, and water content of a plant while removing the fiber.
As to your last question, part of it may be rethinking the profit motive in food production. Food waste to keep prices high is a huge issue.
ulf-77723 · 1h ago
Some time ago I read the book Complete Guide to Sports Nutrition by Anita Bean, which does also emphasize on not using antibacterial mouthwash since it removes the beneficial bacteria in the mouth which convert nitrate to nitrite.
I‘m drinking beetroot juice since 3 years now and asked myself if beetroot capsules might be an alternative.
dinfinity · 1h ago
For people who don't like drinking beetroot juice, you can also regularly (French) kiss with people with healthy oral microbiomes [0][1]. Best to really get in there.
Ok but what happens when unhealthy kisses healthy? Does it balance out?
If it's not risky, I'm about to embark on a mission.
fhars · 1h ago
How would capsules affect the mouth biome, though?
ulf-77723 · 31m ago
Not sure, probably it doesn’t - in this regard the capsules might just be snake oil if they are not good in any other way
stepanhruda · 35m ago
I recommend using a mouthwash based on xylitol which kills strains like streptococcus mutans but does not impair these nitrate reducers.
1970-01-01 · 1h ago
Comfortable and uninterrupted sleeping, eating mostly plants, and getting your heart rate up and muscles moving for half an hour per day.
Anything else is going from 90% healthy to 99%.
dinfinity · 1h ago
I'd like to add: Stretching or some other kind of flexibility improving activities. Muscles moving for half an hour a day doesn't (necessarily) do anything for that (may even make it worse if you're doing heavy stuff).
The effects on quality of life of a bit of flexibility are huge. Back pain, knee pain, shoulder pain, "RSI", and so many other ails are often just pretty much permanently cramped muscles negatively affecting ligaments and nerves.
pstorm · 48m ago
Being flexible is important, but the latest research shows that heavy lifting improves flexibility about as much as a dedicated stretching program: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9935664/
underlipton · 44s ago
Biphasic sleep was probably more common before artificial light, and you really need to be moving every 30-45 minutes. Even just a couple of minutes of walking or doing some chore counts.
baxtr · 40m ago
This + avoiding cigarettes, alcohol and any other drug as much as possible.
djtango · 2h ago
I can't remember where (maybe here) that you shouldn't use mouthwash after working out because of the effects on your oral microbiome. That fact shocked me just like this article does because it was unintuitive that your oral microbiome could have such an impact on your physiology.
The effect may actually be a similar one because nitrates do sound familiar...
christophilus · 2h ago
You shouldn’t use mouthwash at all ever. It’s a nuke to the microbes in your mouth. There was a long, rambling discussion with a functional dentist on the Primal Podcast[0] that goes into this.
There are situations where mouthwashes are beneficial, such as with injuries... Just not the stuff you buy at the store. The best mouthwash for those situations is just warm salty water.
DuzAwe · 2h ago
Alcohol or just fluoride?
I have an aversion to the alcohol washes after reading years ago that the change to your mouth biome may lead to the issues that they are meant to stop.
ta988 · 1h ago
fluoride with no kind of antibacterial is fine (careful with thymol etc). Check your toothpaste for anti bacterial as well. you want to remove food and plaque, not good bacteria.
bufordtwain · 9m ago
I wonder if they could test this by comparing blood pressures of older folks in Australia with those in other countries since I hear they really like beetroot there :)
treetalker · 1h ago
Is there a material difference between drinking beetroot juice and just eating a mess of beets?
hotpotat · 2h ago
If you have trouble in bed, ask yourself if you use Listerine. It kills your mouth’s microbiome and lowers your Nitric Oxide production [0].
I don't use Listerine but I didn't get this: trouble in bed of what kind? I couldn't get it from the linked article.
I never knew high blood pressure correlates with bad sleep or bad sex (if anything, meds for high blood pressure come with negative effects on that).
Workaccount2 · 1h ago
Nitric oxide relaxes your blood cells, letting blood flow easier into parts that erect themselves with blood.
Try taking arginine for a week if you want to experience the effect first hand.
hotpotat · 1h ago
The physical performance kind. Conversely beet root, L-Citruline, and supplemental NO are commonly used for ED. That’s why medications like tadalafil and sildenafil work. NO relaxes your blood vessels and increases blood flow generally.
giantg2 · 1h ago
And get sun exposure since your body will synthesize it.
mariusor · 1h ago
I think this is also one of the latest "marginal gains" advantages the cycling pro peloton is making use of. After races you can see them all chug a 150-200ml bottle of beetroot juice as a recovery drink while making the afferent faces. :D
cowmoo728 · 1h ago
beetroot juice was a few years ago and it's for a different purpose - nitric oxide to relax smooth muscle in the airways. the red recovery drink at recent events is tart cherry juice, which is thought to aid in muscle recovery.
silenced_trope · 7m ago
I started consuming Beet Chews recently. I'm not convinced of it though.
I think it's just one of those things where I see a YouTube video and go to Amazon to add a new supplement to my life. Then once the supply of the supplement is up I choose not to re-up on it. That's what I'm planning for the Beet Chews too.
I wonder really how much it really lowers BP and what quantity to consume?
The linked article doesn't specify how much was consumed? A single cup? A liter? Likewise I'm just consuming 2 Beet Chews per day per the suggested serving size. But who knows if that really is the "minimum effective dose". There is value to the placebo effect of course, I'm taking something in order to convince myself I'm healthier.
healsdata · 2h ago
Isn't nitrates what makes processed meats so unhealthy? Does this mean the bacon that claims to be cured with celery juice is actually on to something?
mrob · 2h ago
The main preservative for processed meats, and the one that reacts with other compounds to form carcinogens, is nitrites not nitrates. Nitrates are sometimes used too, especially for meats that are cured for a long time, because some bacteria will reduce them to nitrites, making them effectively work as a sustained release form of nitrite. See:
But the article paints this bacterial conversion of nitrates as beneficial. It’s unclear whether the conversion into nitric acid implies the conversion into nitrites. To me it seems likely the NO benefit may come with nitrosamine production, which may raise colon cancer risk.
I think nitrosamines aren’t exclusively formed in the gut, but are present in cured meat beforehand, though. As far as I know, vitamin C prevents the nitrite to nitrosamine reaction, so fresh nitrate rich vegetable juices may not be inherently harmful through secondary nitrosamine production from converted nitrites. Additionally, their amino acid content is probably low, so as long as they are not consumed with a meal, production may be limited.
xyzzy_plugh · 2h ago
No, you're thinking of nitrites. Celery juice is very high in nitrates, which then get converted to nitrites, which they don't have to put on the label. It's entirely marketing. Nothing has materially changed.
cobbal · 2h ago
Celery is just a "natural" source of nitrates/nitrates. This makes it legal somehow to lie and claim "no added nitrates" on the label.
Workaccount2 · 1h ago
I can't believe the tiktok health cult hasn't caught on to this yet.
Seed oils are the devil but "uncured" meats? All good!
morninglight · 1h ago
Yes, this creates real confusion. Does this mean that you can eat a dozen hotdogs if you wash them down with a glass of beetroot juice?
If you are still not confused read this:
"Although prevalent in the diet, nitrates have been viewed negatively because they chemically form carcinogenic nitrosamines in acidic environments, e.g. stomach, purportedly leading to gastric cancer as well as neoplasia of the intestine, brain, pancreas, and contributing to Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. "
> Does this mean that you can eat a dozen hotdogs if you wash them down with a glass of beetroot juice?
No. Beeting your meat is not the solution to that particular problem.
thallium205 · 49m ago
One of the problems with beetroot though is that it is loaded with sugar.
nradov · 2h ago
That's interesting. I had always assumed that the effect was due to vasodilation but perhaps not.
giantg2 · 1h ago
It is. The article is about how the beet juice affects the microbiome in a way that increases the conversion of nitrate to vasodialating nitric oxide.
mythrwy · 1h ago
For those who don't like beets, I eat beet regularly by dropping a few chunks in a fruit smoothie. Makes it nice and pink and the earthy flavor is much diluted.
The aqueducts were also responsible for Romes ability to proliferate and grow. Lead was both a blessing and a curse.
I wonder what future generations will say about our highly enriched and processed diets. Calories have never been cheaper and food is ubiquitous. However I believe our food is playing a huge role in our degraded health.
It’s not surprising that most studies looking at the consumption of unprocessed food, fresh fruit and vegetables show benefits to our health.
The challenge is how do we get this food in the hands of those who need it cheaply and without sacrificing the nutritional (and microbial) content.
Is there any evidence that modern low calorie sweeteners have deleterious population-level effects, and what are they compared to high calorie sweeteners?
I highly doubt there was much effect from the pipes. They would quickly be sealed in mineral scale. Cups or utensils - maybe, but would be more about specific important people using them rather than being widespread.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate
As to your last question, part of it may be rethinking the profit motive in food production. Food waste to keep prices high is a huge issue.
I‘m drinking beetroot juice since 3 years now and asked myself if beetroot capsules might be an alternative.
[0] https://www.adelaide.edu.au/newsroom/news/list/2024/02/20/mo...
[1] https://microbiomejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186...
If it's not risky, I'm about to embark on a mission.
Anything else is going from 90% healthy to 99%.
The effects on quality of life of a bit of flexibility are huge. Back pain, knee pain, shoulder pain, "RSI", and so many other ails are often just pretty much permanently cramped muscles negatively affecting ligaments and nerves.
The effect may actually be a similar one because nitrates do sound familiar...
[0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jNrm-9sp-RQ
I have an aversion to the alcohol washes after reading years ago that the change to your mouth biome may lead to the issues that they are meant to stop.
[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31709856/
I never knew high blood pressure correlates with bad sleep or bad sex (if anything, meds for high blood pressure come with negative effects on that).
Try taking arginine for a week if you want to experience the effect first hand.
I think it's just one of those things where I see a YouTube video and go to Amazon to add a new supplement to my life. Then once the supply of the supplement is up I choose not to re-up on it. That's what I'm planning for the Beet Chews too.
I wonder really how much it really lowers BP and what quantity to consume?
The linked article doesn't specify how much was consumed? A single cup? A liter? Likewise I'm just consuming 2 Beet Chews per day per the suggested serving size. But who knows if that really is the "minimum effective dose". There is value to the placebo effect of course, I'm taking something in order to convince myself I'm healthier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curing_salt
I think nitrosamines aren’t exclusively formed in the gut, but are present in cured meat beforehand, though. As far as I know, vitamin C prevents the nitrite to nitrosamine reaction, so fresh nitrate rich vegetable juices may not be inherently harmful through secondary nitrosamine production from converted nitrites. Additionally, their amino acid content is probably low, so as long as they are not consumed with a meal, production may be limited.
Seed oils are the devil but "uncured" meats? All good!
If you are still not confused read this:
"Although prevalent in the diet, nitrates have been viewed negatively because they chemically form carcinogenic nitrosamines in acidic environments, e.g. stomach, purportedly leading to gastric cancer as well as neoplasia of the intestine, brain, pancreas, and contributing to Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. "
https://www.memphis.edu/healthsciences/pdfs/martin-asnh.pdf