The majority seems too trusting that the government will appeal its losses.
Strategically, the government could enact a policy affecting a million people, be sued, lose, provide relief to the named plaintiffs, and then not appeal the decision. The upper courts never get the opportunity to make binding precedent, the lower courts do not get to extend relief to non-plaintiffs, and the government gets to enforce its illegal policies on the vast majority of people who did not (likely could not) sue.
DarknessFalls · 41m ago
This administration does not really care about the rule of law. It cares to some degree about public perception. The timing of this ruling is about revoking birthright citizenship, which is a huge Constitutional trampling. There were opportunities four years ago for the SC to step in and they refused to intercede. For example, why didn't they rule in favor of executive authority when President Biden he tried to forgive student loan debt and a Federal Judge in Texas deemed it "unlawful"?
Now we get to see Americans have their legitimacy removed so they can be sent to "Alligator Alcatraz", the new prison being built just for them in the Everglades.
paulvnickerson · 54m ago
This had to happen. The state of affairs prior to this ruling is that any of 700 district judges could unilaterally block the president from exercising his authority under the constitution pending a review, including matters of national security, based on their own subjective politics. It broke the proper functioning of the government. This restores a proper functioning balance of powers.
tshaddox · 43m ago
I'm personally much less worried about genuine national security matters getting temporarily blocked than I am about general authoritarianism from the President (any President). Given the impotence of Congress, what checks on executive power are we left with?
In this case, the president does not have the authority under the constitution to purport to invalidate the citizenship of natural-born citizens. It is the executive that broke the proper functioning of the government.
thatfrenchguy · 36m ago
I know words are just words, but trying to re-interpret "subject to the jurisdiction" is such a ridiculous over-reach.
Enjoy the chaos though, because some later administration as a revenge will very likely strip the rights of folks who can't show a naturalization certificate in the same way.
indil · 17m ago
Your news sources have woefully misinformed you. Trump's argument is that it's not enough to be born here, you have to also be a charge of the country:
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
Note the "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof". Trump's argument is that people born in America to tourist parents here for a few weeks (for example) aren't subject to the jurisdiction of America. It's a valid argument to make, even if you come down on a different side. Even the author of the 14th amendment said that was the point of that clause. Even in logical terms it makes sense: You can't just let anyone in to give birth and then collect benefits; it's unsustainable.
However, this case wasn't about citizenship. It was about the broader issue of lower courts issuing restraining orders outside their jurisdictions. It's a recipe for chaos. There's a reason why there are multiple jurisdictions, and courts are limited to their jurisdictions. What happens when two lower courts issue conflicting nationwide orders? The only court in the US that has jurisdiction over the entire country is the Supreme Court. This was a losing battle.
There's a right way and a wrong way to go about addressing problems. Court cases are sometimes more about the core issues involved than the concrete circumstances. Sure, birthright citizenship was the reason for the suit, but the core issue was judicial overreach. Don't get mad because the way your side was "winning" was by cheating, and they were stopped. Try having an actual good argument, and doing things the right way by arguing the actual case in a court.
acoustics · 3m ago
The OP said that the courts were preventing the president from exercising his power under the constitution, I replied that he does not have this power under the constitution. That's all.
There's a right way and a wrong way to go about addressing problems. If the president wants to exclude children of illegal immigrants from citizenship, he can lead an effort to amend the constitution.
EasyMark · 1m ago
It's not valid. When you're in a country you are subject to it's laws, whether it's the USA or Somalia
ceejayoz · 16m ago
> Trump's argument is that people born in America to tourist parents here for a few weeks (for example) aren't subject to the jurisdiction of America. It's a valid argument to make…
I suspect, if they commit a crime or overstay their visa, we'll suddenly decide we have a little jurisdiction after all.
EasyMark · 2m ago
I really don't understand why they didn't turn the case into a 14th amendment case. I guess they wanted to provide more slack and time for their benefactor and political ally (SCOTUS conservatives <--> Trump)
everforward · 4m ago
From my reading and understanding, they still can, it just involves an _immense_ amount more paperwork. The ruling is basically that judges can only provide injunctions for the named party in a case, not universal injunctions. So instead of one injunction, each person impacted by the EO will have to file for their own injunction. Which will likely be granted due to similar injunctions already granted.
So it reads to me like we've ended up in a similar spot, but with the requirement that an insane amount of paperwork happens.
pjc50 · 31m ago
You're just stating that the President, and his federal government, should be above the rule of law again.
elAhmo · 4m ago
Not a single decision so far was related to national security. The checks and balances exist and they are/were working, and this is an attempt to circumvent that.
Almondsetat · 41m ago
Any judge in the country based on their own subjective politics can also create a precedent by ruling a certain way, and that single precedent might be used even a hundred years later. So by the same logic, this also should go away since it means any judge anywhere at any time can basically sediment history with their opinion
williamdclt · 39m ago
Many people do think this should go away yes. Common law VS statutory law is a constant debate
Almondsetat · 32m ago
Arguing for or against common law wasn't the point (personally I'm not a fan of it). The point is that the same reasoning calls for the abolition of common law, so GP should take that into consideration
BriggyDwiggs42 · 15m ago
In practice we’ve had the opposite problem, plain and simple.
EasyMark · 3m ago
but instead of a few cases, now there will be dozens of cases because now each state/district has to fight Trump's authoritarian tendencies, and in the meantime he can imprison (just for starters) illegal immigrants in "3rd countries" known for torture and the worst prison conditions impossible, and seemingly he prefers to do that.
jayd16 · 38m ago
> based on their own subjective politics.
You mean like under their own judgement?
Amezarak · 29m ago
It's astonishing how many people fail to address the legal argument in the SCOTUS opinion, disregard the legal question altogether, and apparently want the courts to decide how things "should" be, regardless of legality.
IANAL but I read SCOTUS opinions regularly and this one is hard to argue with. If things should be different then we need legislative/constitutional changes.
magicalist · 19m ago
> If things should be different then we need legislative/constitutional changes
lol, yes, like birthright citizenship written plainly into the constitution.
What good are your further legislative/constitutional changes worth if the executive can just ignore them except for the single individuals who file suit?
aaomidi · 40m ago
The balance of powers have been broken for over a century at this point with ever increasing “emergency” declarations that don’t go away, giving the executive branch immense power.
moogly · 41m ago
I don't think you understand what the word "balance" means.
thatfrenchguy · 39m ago
"balance" is when the people you agree with get more power than they should right?
vkou · 47m ago
The state of affairs is that:
1. The executive is doing something illegal to hundreds of thousands of people.
2. Dozens and hundreds of people sue them.
3. The executive loses in court.
4. The executive does not appeal to the supreme court the cases it lost.
5. Thus, no binding precedent that stops the illegal action in #1 is set.
This is actual lawless lunacy, and this enshrines it as SOP going forward. Is this the country you want to live in? Do you think this is how it should run?
Here's a wild idea. If the executive disagrees with the federal courts on the merits of whether or not its decisions are illegal, it can appeal up to SCOTUS, and win a case on its merits. It can't do that because even under this SCOTUS, their case has no merits.
> exercising his authority under the constitution pending a review
That is the entire bloody point of checks and balances. You are cheer-leading the complete destruction of them. The government, when challenged on the legality of what its doing, needs to win their case in court, because the courts are the final arbiters of written law.
firesteelrain · 19m ago
I get the concern, but this ruling doesn’t stop courts from checking illegal executive action. It just says injunctions should only apply to the actual parties in the case.
Nationwide injunctions were never clearly authorized by statute, and letting any one of 700 district judges block a federal policy everywhere created chaos and forum shopping.
If a policy is truly unconstitutional, the proper path is a class action or taking it up to the Supreme Court
Not giving individual judges a veto over national law.
lostapathy · 9m ago
> It just says injunctions should only apply to the actual parties in the case.
So every person wronged by the government should sue individually?
vkou · 14m ago
> Not giving individual judges a veto over national law.
It's not a veto, it's a delay until appeal. If the lower court is wrong, SCOTUS has never had any issue with settling the question.
The fact that the government isn't appealing means that they know they can't win on appeal, and what they are doing is illegal.
firesteelrain · 9m ago
Right, it’s a delay, not a final veto. But when that delay applies nationwide, it functions like a veto until SCOTUS steps in, which can take months or years
If the executive avoids appeals to dodge precedent, that’s a separate (and valid) concern. But the solution isn’t to stretch injunction power beyond its legal limits
It is about who gets to block national policy for everyone, based on one local case. That kind of sweeping relief was never authorized by Congress
umbra07 · 31m ago
> The state of affairs is that:
Yes, this has been going on for decades at various levels of government.
It's very common when it comes to gun rights. The government (local/state and federal) will frequently avoid appealing if they think they might then lose the case, setting a wide precedent for millions of people.
Hnrobert42 · 23m ago
But the difference is that now the government can continue to enforce its policy against anyone who has not sued.
stateaffairs · 41m ago
Of course, because innocent until proven guilty.
The POTUS doesn't need to ask for permission to politicized local judges
esseph · 8m ago
Its "politicized" when it's something someone doesn't like.
It can't just be, I don't know, a plain reading of the fucking law.
It's time to Balkanize.
vkou · 39m ago
> Of course, because innocent until proven guilty.
The purpose of courts litigating the legality of executive actions is not establishing innocence or guilt, so what you're saying is completely irrelevant.
The president doesn't go to prison because some court found that he signed an illegal executive order. (But it sounds like you maybe think that should be the case. It's hard to tell, because you aren't saying anything coherent.)
> The POTUS doesn't need to ask for permission to politicized local judges
Let's play a simple game. If he signs a blatantly unconstitutional and illegal EO ordering the US Marshals to have you and your family arrested, tortured, and shot tomorrow, whose permission do you think he should need? Which parts of the government would be able to stop him?
You seem to think that no 'politicized'[1] judge should be allowed to say "Whoa, hold on there, that may be illegal."
---
[1] What the hell does 'politicized' mean? Is there a single person in government who is not 'politicized'? Is SCOTUS somehow not 'politicized'? Is the executive?
anigbrowl · 11m ago
It's not worth replying to incoherent comments. Just DV or flag them.
stefan_ · 52m ago
Thats why the government can just skip ahead and call the Supreme Court, and then the Supreme Court lifts it because apparently being unable to do illegal things is Irreparable Harm (actually makes a mockery of the concept of course).
In the meantime, when I sue John Doe and get an injunction, they are enjoined from their conduct everywhere; but when I sue the government, it should only apply to me? Makes no sense.
jonstewart · 33m ago
Judges have never been able to make rulings based on their own subjective politics. They must justify their rulings under the law.
I could extend some merit to the idea that injunctions should be limited in complex cases where case law is thin and the law is less than clear. When executive orders are clearly unconstitutional, however, I do not then see any reason for limits.
raincom · 16m ago
Judges make use of reasonableness, superset of rationality, all the time. The issue is what is reasonable to 30% is not reasonable to another 25%. As long as there is a political backing for their reasonable decisions, they are fine. One can call it subjective or political. That’s why judges do judge and provide good reasons that can be defendable by 20% of those who vote and have political sway.
ReptileMan · 25m ago
>They must justify their rulings under the law.
The law that states that growing wheat on your own land is interstate commerce.
root_axis · 40m ago
> The state of affairs prior to this ruling is that any of 700 district judges could unilaterally block the president from exercising his authority under the constitution pending a review
This ruling does not "restore" a functioning balance, it damages it. This has never been a problem in the past because previous administrations (regardless of politics) didn't take illegal actions daily. Framing it as "politics" is disingenuous as many of the judges ruling against Trump were appointed by him.
The system was working as intended to check an executive acting outside of the law, but once again, the supreme court continues to empower the executive.
tw04 · 36m ago
When the Supreme Court has multiple members who have and continue to openly break the law themselves, they have a vested interest in keeping a party in power who is also openly corrupt.
dayofthedaleks · 54m ago
This is functionally equivalent to the Enabling Act of 1933. [0]
You only need a basic understanding of the ruling today and the Enabling Act to understand how untrue this is, to the point that the comparison must have been made in bad faith.
macawfish · 52m ago
Only eerily not legislated
tshaddox · 41m ago
Our legislature willingly gave up its power quite a while ago.
> Instead, the Government says, it should be able to apply the Citizenship Order (whose legality it does not defend) to everyone except the plaintiffs who filed this lawsuit.
If that’s the case, I’m curious if it could be fixed with a class action, so everyone (or everyone born in the US) is a plaintiff? If that’s legally a thing.
AndrewKemendo · 2h ago
>class action
What you describe is voting
We’re in this mess because people are not interested enough, educated enough, or engaged enough politically to make their position explicit to drive the direction of legislation and executive action.
Citizens of The United States have every tool available to to work together to shape their communities. The reality is the overwhelming majority do not do that, and you can come up with a lot of reasons why, which are structural in many cases, but the fact remains that the majority of people are not involved in the political process at all, have no desire to be an actively reject any opportunity to be.
Assuming that citizens would all of a sudden become involved because it requires a lawsuit, means that there’s the capacity to do so, which does not exist, and all we need is a catalyst.
If the number of possible catalysts that have already happened in the last decade we’re not sufficient then nothing short of a literal terminator Skynet scenario is going to cause people to take action and I’m increasingly doubtful that even that would do it.
Based on my observation from my work position, people are ready to just roll over onto their backs and have robots slice them from the belly up, because it’s easier than actually doing something that would prevent it.
hakunin · 2h ago
I think this often gets confused. Voting a president in doesn't give them a blank mandate to do whatever they want, such as break the law. And knowingly doing things that might not get approved by courts, but veiling it in a "novel legal theory" disguise is still breaking the law. Just because slow and thorough processes need to take place to adjudicate these actions doesn't mean that these actions aren't worth adjudicating. So while voting is important, keeping the voted-in president accountable is important too.
jfengel · 1h ago
According to the Supreme Court, that's exactly what it does. The President simply isn't accountable.
I would not have thought that this is what the Constitution says, but the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of what the Constitution says. That's not in the Constitution, either, but they've appropriated that job for two centuries, so we let them get away with it. The "it's not illegal if the President does it" part is new, though they've been leading up to it for decades, so it's not really surprising.
timr · 1h ago
Or, more charitably: the Supreme Court has says that the president has this authority, in this specific area, and your characterization of this as "breaking the law" is not correct.
Edit: actually, even that is overstating it. This is an extremely narrow ruling that is mainly about the powers of federal judges. It's the sort of ruling that the "other side" will trumpet as settled law when they're the ones in power again.
ceejayoz · 1h ago
Less charitably, the Supreme Court has said that this president has this authority.
Forgive student loans? No authority!
End birthright citizenship? Well, he's the boss!
timr · 1h ago
That's nice rhetoric, but they're not the same issue at all.
ceejayoz · 56m ago
Yes, there's always some reason it's different when Dems are President with this crew.
You're right, though, it is different; birthright citizenship is spelled out, very clearly, in the Constitution. It's an even plainer wrong.
It's Calvinball.
xienze · 52s ago
The second amendment is “very clearly” spelled out in the Constitution yet many roadblocks to gun ownership are thrown up in various states and people STILL make tired arguments about how the amendment “should” be interpreted. For example, the old argument that the founding fathers could have never conceived of AR-15s and thus their legality under the second amendment is debatable.
Likewise, in 1868 the writers of the fourteenth amendment probably couldn’t conceive of rapid international travel and the possibility that pregnant women could just show up weeks before their due date and their newborn child should “obviously” be an American citizen.
The amendment was quite obviously targeted at Native Americans and slaves, not any and all pregnant women the world over who manage to reach the US before giving birth. But as you’re noticing, there’s multiple ways people can interpret laws. It’s rarely as cut and dry as “this is obviously against the law!!!”
timr · 54m ago
There's nothing in the ruling that says it only applies to Republican administrations.
ceejayoz · 52m ago
Of course there isn't.
There's no written rule that the boss's son is gonna get the cushy VP slot, but everyone knows it.
Well, that's very cynical and maybe you'll be right, but for now the California AG agrees with me. Per a quote in the WSJ [1]:
> California Attorney General Rob Bonta, a co-plaintiff, looked for a silver lining: Red states, which sought universal injunctions to stymie Biden administration policies, would encounter obstacles pursuing that strategy under a future Democratic president, he said.
Call me a crazy, glass-half-full centrist, but I prefer to look at this as a clawing back of extremely broad powers from rather partisan judges. It's been maddening that circuit court judges in a few hyper-partisan districts basically push every decision to the Supreme Court.
> California Attorney General Rob Bonta, a co-plaintiff, looked for a silver lining…
Sure, and Susan Collins thinks Trump "learned his lesson" with his first impeachment. Looking for the silver lining is what we sometimes call "cope". He lost. As a politician, he's obliged to put some spin on it.
> It's been rather maddening that circuit court judges basically push every decision to the Supreme Court.
It is. This sort of thing should've died before ever becoming an EO, and at every level of the judiciary as clearly unconstitutional. That it didn't is a big problem.
timr · 7m ago
Well, if we're predicting the future, here's mine: since they're already basically telegraphing it (and also because it's pretty clear-cut), I predict that they'll overturn the whole thing in a future case, and then the left will be crowing about how mean-ol Mr. Trump was taught a lesson in capital-D Democracy by our powerful system of government.
TimorousBestie · 42m ago
There’s also nothing in the ruling that binds the Supreme Court to uphold it when and if there’s another Democratic administration.
No, stare decisis is not binding. Nor does it still exist.
timr · 37m ago
> No, stare decisis is not binding. Nor does it still exist.
If it was not binding, did it ever exist?
Anyway, there's nothing that binds any Supreme Court to do anything at all. This argument terminates in noise. It's just partisan fretting.
TimorousBestie · 15m ago
> There's nothing that binds any Supreme Court to do anything at all.
We agree. So your remark about “nothing in the ruling says. . .” was actually irrelevant to the broader point. From a lacuna in a decision we can conclude nothing.
timr · 11m ago
We agree that if you assume a world where there's no precedent at all, then our system of government doesn't work.
Beyond that, no. We also don't agree that that world is the one that we live in.
watwut · 44m ago
That is actually what is going on and how right wing justices think.
burkaman · 51m ago
I think that comment is referring to Trump v. United States, where the court said that a president cannot be held accountable for using a Constitutional authority to break the law. It is very literally "a blank mandate to break the law".
For example, a president is granted authority to command the military and issue pardons. They have absolute immunity for any act performed using these authorities, including illegal acts such as assassinating or deporting a political opponent or accepting bribes in return for pardons. This is not a matter of opinion or a controversial interpretation, these consequences were discussed during the case and in the opinion, and the court accepted them.
Amezarak · 38m ago
This was also discussed in the Constitutional Convention, where the participants decided the impeachment process, and failing that, four-year terms, were a sufficient remedy.
tshaddox · 35m ago
Surely the President could simply prevent congresspeople from voting to impeach via various means.
Amezarak · 26m ago
Sure, that was a concern: a sufficiently large faction of Senators might combine to protect a bad President, or destroy a good one unjustly.
> Mr. MADISON, objected to a trial of the President by the Senate, especially as he was to be impeached by the other branch of the Legislature, and for any act which might be called a misdemeanor. The President under these circumstances was made improperly dependent. He would prefer the Supreme Court for the trial of impeachments, or rather a tribunal of which that should form a part.
> Mr. PINKNEY disapproved of making the Senate the Court of impeachments, as rendering the President too dependent on the Legislature. If he opposes a favorite law, the two Houses will combine agst. him, and under the influence of heat and faction throw him out of office.
Ultimately it was decided that "in four years he can be turned out", so it was not worth addressing further. Indeed some argued that the President should not be impeachable at all because of this.
> Mr. KING expressed his apprehensions that an extreme caution in favor of liberty might enervate the Government we were forming. He wished the House to recur to the primitive axiom that the three great departments of Govts. should be separate & independent: that the Executive & Judiciary should be so as well as the Legislative: that the Executive should be so equally with the Judiciary. Would this be the case, if the Executive should be impeachable? It had been said that the Judiciary would be impeachable. But it should have been remembered at the same time that the Judiciary hold their places not for a limited time, but during good behaviour. It is necessary therefore that a forum should be established for trying misbehaviour. Was the Executive to hold his place during good behaviour? The Executive was to hold his place for a limited term like the members of the Legislature: Like them particularly the Senate whose members would continue in appointmt the same term of 6 years he would periodically be tried for his behaviour by his electors, who would continue or discontinue him in trust according to the manner in which he had discharged it. Like them therefore, he ought to be subject to no intermediate trial, by impeachment. He ought not to be impeachable unless he held his office during good behaviour, a tenure which would be most agreeable to him; provided an independent and effectual forum could be devised. But under no circumstances ought he to be impeachable by the Legislature. This would be destructive of his independence and of the principles of the Constitution. He relied on the vigor of the Executive as a great security for the public liberties.
teraflop · 1h ago
The Supreme Court has pointedly not ruled or said that the president has the authority to redefine birthright citizenship. What they have actually done is to put very stringent requirements on how the president's authority can be challenged in lower courts.
And notably, exactly the same Republican-nominated Supreme Court judges did not do anything to interfere with exactly the same legal process (nationwide injunctions) when they were aimed at a Democratic president. See, e.g. Biden's student loan forgiveness executive order.
timr · 55m ago
> The Supreme Court has pointedly not ruled or said that the president has the authority to redefine birthright citizenship.
Yep, agreed. I already added an edit saying exactly the same thing.
tiahura · 50m ago
Because they weren’t challenged on that basis.
ReptileMan · 20m ago
>According to the Supreme Court, that's exactly what it does. The President simply isn't accountable.
The president absolutely is accountable. The problem is the Congress for their own reasons refuse to hold it to account. The Congress could remove any president in less than 24 hours with simple majority for no reason whatsoever.
tiahura · 51m ago
Incorrect. Congress has a multitude of means to check the president.
tshaddox · 38m ago
Also, any time anyone actually brings up any details about Presidential elections you'll quick get many people rushing to explain how the people do not in fact directly elect the President and how this is such an incredibly brilliant idea.
cmurf · 44m ago
Except voting this person to the presidency has given just over 1000 convicted criminals a pardon, as promised in advance. It’s an unlimited and irreversible power.
The Court has long considered that the president has a duty to follow the law, but also that the Court can’t compel the president to follow the law. That is a political question. Congress alone can stop a president by impeaching and removing them from office. Not only can’t the Court initiate impeachments, impeachment is unreviewable by the Court.
If there’s a servile Congress, it means voters can elect a law breaker as president. They are going to get a president who breaks the law.
And this is what’s happening. People voted for an abuser, a rapist, a felon, a conspiracy theorist who lies about the outcome of elections, lies that VPOTUS can and should overturn them, and even sent a mob to have that VPOTUS assassinated for refusing to comply with that illegal order. Then boasted he’d pardon all those criminals who were in his service. And despite all of this, people voted for him again.
The people got exactly what they voted for.
tshaddox · 31m ago
It's so silly to blame the American people though, considering the vastly greater resources required to politically organize millions of people to counter the what a handful of people in the executive branch or a couple dozen people in the legislative branch can do with a flick of the wrist.
kevin_thibedeau · 1h ago
I vote but have little influence because I won't join a party and live in a state with closed primaries where the real selection process is carried out. If the remaining 30 closed states cared about civic engagement they'd switch to one of the established open primary models.
root_axis · 15m ago
Voting and engagement is not the issue. Trump would have won even if all eligible voters voted.
The problem is that Dems are just culturally irrelevant. Most people don't care about issues, policy or the economy, they just want to cheer for a team and will justify everything their team does regardless of efficacy or outcome. Trump is the fun underdog team that everyone is talking about, the Dems are the boring party-pooper team we all love to hate. During covid, that boring became a source of needed stability, but after boring stewarded us through the crisis, nobody wanted to be associated with them again.
LorenPechtel · 41m ago
What *meaningful* action would you have people take?
Remember, force is out of the question because it will provide justification for the oppression and make people more willing to accept it.
esseph · 3m ago
Force is never out of the question.
The illusion some want you to believe, is that it is.
shams93 · 54m ago
There is also the damage done by the Supreme Court ending the Voting Rights Act, had the act been in place in 2024, Kamalah would have won by a landslide. Millions of minority voters were targeted for disenfranchisement in 2024.
ada1981 · 1h ago
There is some compelling research from Princeton that for 90%+ of the American voting population, there opinions have zero impact on federal policy. It's all lobby driven money.
“The preferences of the average American appear to have only a miniscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.”
That’s not quite an accurate description of the Princeton Study. What the study actually shows, if I’m thinking of the correct one, is that for the most part average americans agree with the elite. The results of the study are driven by the fact that when elites and average americans disagree, the politicians tend to side with the elites.
A prime example of this is the immigration system. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/podcasts/the-daily/electi... (“On the Ballot: An Immigration System Most Americans Never Wanted”). Americans never asked to import tens of millions of people from the third world. When Congress reformed the immigration system in 1965, they promised that wouldn’t happen. But for decades, there’s been a coalition of pro-foreigner liberals and pro-cheap-labor conservatives that have facilitated massive immigration that average americans never asked for.
Trump, ironically, is a reaction to the very thing the Princeton study identified.
Retric · 51m ago
> is that for the most part average americans agree with the elite. The results of the study are driven by the fact that when elites and average americans disagree, the politicians tend to side with the elites.
The case when everyone agrees doesn’t tell you anything. It’s only when people disagree that you can find who has actual power and in this case the general public has effectively zero actual meaningful power day to day.
Systematic voter suppression plus gerrymandering etc may win you rigged elections, but ultimately voting isn’t about the system in place it’s avoidance unrest. We’re entering uncharted territory with how strongly people disagree with what the government is doing, which is where the general public actually has a say, namely by destroying the existing power structures rather than voting. It’s not even a question of insurrection, not having kids plus 60’s style dropping out at scale is ruinous.
rayiner · 36m ago
> The case when everyone agrees doesn’t tell you anything. It’s only when people disagree that you can find who has actual power and in this case the general public has effectively zero actual meaningful power day to day.
It does tell you something. For example, if people mostly disagreed with the elites, but the elites got their way anyway, that would be a different situation.
> We’re entering uncharted territory with how strongly people disagree with what the government is doing
You’re overestimating how much people care about any of this stuff. I’m in a blue state and I hear almost nothing about it other than from some overly empathetic people on facebook. The “protests” recently were tepid and nearly all elderly liberals with nothing better to do.
A big chunk of the country really wants mass deportations, and for the most part, folks in the broader left don’t care much to oppose it.
scarface_74 · 45m ago
What people don’t want to admit is that this is exactly what more then half the people wanted. Because if the way the electoral college works as far as the President, gerrymandering with the House and 2 seats per state in the Senste, more people voting who disagree wouldn’t do any good.
You can’t shape your community to overcome the power of the federal government.
Henchman21 · 2h ago
I’m reminded of the quote from Thomas “TNT” Todd at the beginning of Public Enemy’s classic Fight the Power:
“Yet our best-trained, best-educated, best-equipped, best-prepared troops refuse to fight. Matter of fact it's safe to say that they would rather switch than fight.”
However, I am reasonably certain we could rouse the public to action by shutting off the thing that keeps us all distracted, unable to organize, and helpless: the Internet.
Not expecting a positive reaction from this crowd, as we’re pretty much responsible for the creation of this monster. Just my 2 cents.
ericras · 2h ago
If your contribution is to quote an old rap song and make a meta complaint about how people will react to you, then you're right - you don't deserve a positive reaction.
benreesman · 2h ago
I did two things this year that had nontrivial effects on my state of mind.
1. I quit drinking for the time being. This had a modest but real effect on my mood and general wellbeing. It has pros and cons, but on balance it's a win for where I'm at and what I'm trying to do. I might choose differently in the future.
2. I installed GrapheneOS and built NixOS, from source, with fairly extreme choices about networking. This had a staggering effect on every aspect of how I think and feel: cutting the surveillance capitalism at the network level is like having a mass of rage and angst and blurry confusion taken out of my head. I will never, ever go back to that.
Its time for everyone to cut the cord. Get a Pixel, an 8a open box at best buy can be 200-300, install Lineage or Calyx or Graphene, and reclaim ownership of your brain.
BryantD · 1h ago
CASA Inc. in Maryland is in fact refiling its broader lawsuit as a class action case, and has asked for a wider injunction on that basis. So we'll see.
UncleMeat · 2h ago
It could be fixed for the class with a class action. But the courts have also don't their damndest to make that hard too. Requiring a class action means that courts have the additional opportunity to say "nope that's not a valid class" (WalMart v Dukes being a rather famous example).
bluecalm · 3h ago
I don't think class action lawsuit is needed here.
It's enough for one case to get to SCOTUS and then we will hear their opinion about how 14th amendment should be interpreted.
It will be an interesting case I think both 4-5 against and 5-4 in favor of changing the interpretation is possible (with 3-6 and 6-3 less likely outcomes).
matthewowen · 2h ago
The problem (which Sotomayor raises in her dissent, pages 94 and 95 of the PDF) is that it may never reach the supreme court:
> There is a serious question, moreover, whether this Court will ever get the chance to rule on the constitutionality of a policy like the Citizenship Order. Contra, ante, at 6 (opinion of KAVANAUGH, J.) (“[T]he losing parties in the courts of appeals will regularly come to this Court in matters involving major new federal statutes and executive actions”). In the ordinary course, parties who prevail in the lower courts generally cannot seek review from this Court, likely leaving it up to the Government’s discretion whether a petition will be filed here. These cases prove the point: Every court to consider the Citizenship Order’s merits has found that it is unconstitutional in preliminary rulings. Because respondents prevailed on the merits and received universal injunctions, they have no reason to file an appeal. The Government has no incentive to file a petition here either, because the outcome of such an appeal would be preordained. The Government recognizes as much, which is why its emergency applications challenged only the scope of the preliminary injunctions
bluecalm · 1h ago
That's a good point.
I was under the impression that the current administration thinks it can win a case about 14th amendment in case both parents are not legally in US with current majority but if they are in fact not appealing it would mean they think they would lose.
Tadpole9181 · 1h ago
Wait, doesn't this just... End the constitution as a whole? So long as the current executive wants some unconstitutional thing, they get that unconstitutional thing in every state on their side in perpetuity? The constitution is now... per-litigant?
eschaton · 52m ago
That’s the end goal. And to take over the other states too.
Tadpole9181 · 41m ago
Oh, of course. Because it's federal law, being in a state with an injunction isn't actually a protection. A federal LEO can detain & relocate you, charging you with violating a law in another state where there is no such injunction.
This is a whole-sale shredding of the constitution.
eschaton · 12m ago
And everyone needs to recognize and treat it as such, for all it’s worth.
sbohacek · 2h ago
The administration does not need to appeal to the supreme court. I don't think they would appeal it since it is being enforced as desired.
Indeed, this is one of the concerns of the dissenting opinions.
axus · 2h ago
I'm worried about the trend of civil rights going unprotected until after a Supreme Court ruling.
throwaway48476 · 2h ago
That's what laws are for. Courts aren't supposed to write them.
pjc50 · 26m ago
Realistically, and this is a serious problem, many critical rights in the US only exist because of the court going against the voters. Like, say, the legalization of interracial marriage.
drdeca · 18m ago
You do kind of need courts to rule that something in fact violated a law.
scarface_74 · 1h ago
The law was written - in the Constitutuon - the judiciary interrupts them and the executive branch was suppose to enforce it.
throwaway48476 · 1h ago
Most law, and most law courts deal with is federal law, not constitutional law. A lot of the most contentious recent court issues could be addressed with federal laws. It's just congress is lazy and doesn't want to go on record.
georgeecollins · 57m ago
Yes, but things like rights listed in the constitution have been protected by the supreme court regardless of laws. Things like your Miranda rights don't exist because of any law, they existed because of a supreme court ruling.
fzeroracer · 1h ago
And where is federal law derived from? What does the court weigh against federal law when considering if it's enforceable or not?
treetalker · 3h ago
It may not be surprising to learn that over the past several decades conservative Congresses (through the so-called Class Action Fairness Act and its ilk) and Supreme Court decisions have all but eliminated class actions.
sega_sai · 2h ago
Interesting paragraph from dissenting opinion:
"No right is safe in the new legal regime the court creates. Today, the threat is to birthright citizenship. Tomorrow, a different administration may try to seize firearms from law-abiding citizens or prevent people of certain faiths from gathering to worship. The majority holds that, absent cumbersome class-action litigation, courts cannot completely enjoin even such plainly unlawful policies unless doing so is necessary to afford the formal parties complete relief. That holding renders constitutional guarantees meaningful in name only for any individuals who are not parties to a lawsuit. Because I will not be complicit in so grave an attack on our system of law, I dissent."
tiahura · 48m ago
So, quite literally, FUD.
scarface_74 · 41m ago
The President is literally taking away citizenship. What can be more fundamental than that?
ljsprague · 6m ago
Giving citizenship away to millions in order to, in effect, "elect a new people", should be considered treason.
FirmwareBurner · 4m ago
Who's citizenship did Trump take away?
Was it taken away illegally?
Without arguments to that, it IS FUD.
wdb · 4h ago
Sounds like you now need to start lawsuits in every state?
dragonwriter · 2h ago
> Sounds like you now need to start lawsuits in every state?
Every federal judicial district (that's one per state in smaller states, but more in larger states—California has four.)
2. Request an injunction type that's more appropriate
Given the number of babies being born every day it shouldn't be hard to do.
The thing is, the US doesn't issue citizenship papers. So I suppose they need to apply for an SSN and get denied (since the baby is a non-citizen), which will show immediate harm.
It also begs the question: if that baby is illegal can it be deported?
crooked-v · 2h ago
> and get denied
The thing here is that instead of officially denying it, the administration will just "coincidentally" slow-walk everything indefinitely, then illegally exile the baby to Sudan when ICE notices they don't have proof of citizenship.
mannyv · 1h ago
Even a short delay in issuing an SSN may be harm, because it can be required for insurance purposes.
The administration isn't going to slow down processing for everyone, because actual citizens will have issues as well. That will be even more problematic.
treetalker · 3h ago
One upshot may be that the law will be drastically different in the several circuits and (unless SCOTUS plans to handle everything on the emergency docket — as it did here) it will stay that way so long as SCOTUS lets the issues percolate through them (using them as laboratories, as Justice O'Connor was fond of saying).
bluecalm · 3h ago
My understanding is that the administration's position is that at least one of the parents needs to be a citizen or a legal resident.
If that's the case the answer to your question is: yes - together with the parents.
PleasureBot · 3h ago
I suppose the recourse the Supreme Court is offering is that the baby (or more likely the parents) can sue when the citizenship is denied. At which point I'd just expect ICE to arrest and deport them when they show up to court for their lawsuit.
dontlikeyoueith · 2h ago
And if the parents are on valid non-resident visas? Suddenly the child has no status?
Moreover, there is literally no mechanism to prove that your parents are citizens.
Millions of citizens will be at the whim of whatever racist thug decides to hurt them that day.
Welcome to Fascist America.
bluecalm · 1h ago
Most of the world doesn't have unconditional birth right citizenship.
It somehow functions and is not fascist.
cjk · 56m ago
The bit that’s fascist is that birthright citizenship is guaranteed in the US Constitution, and the current administration is openly flouting it.
Amezarak · 34m ago
The debate is over what "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means, it's misleading to simply announce it's guaranteed - the whole legal argument is over whether it is guaranteed.
ceejayoz · 24m ago
If these folks aren't subject to our jurisdiction, how does one manage to deport them?
magicalist · 25m ago
> it's misleading to simply announce it's guaranteed.
Let's not pretend all assertions are equally worth entertaining. Maybe it's "misleading" if you're Stephen Miller, but every court case where it's ever been heard and the legislative record at the time of adopting the 14th amendment show that citizenship is guaranteed. The Trump administration hasn't even raised it in appeals!
Amezarak · 19m ago
The author of the clause didn't think it applied to the children of aliens, so it doesn't seem crazy to me.
> Howard said that the clause "is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States."[30] He added that citizenship "will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons"[30]—a comment which would later raise questions as to whether Congress had originally intended that U.S.-born children of foreign parents were to be included as citizens.[32]
ceejayoz · 10m ago
> The author of the clause…
That'd be a deeply ironic thing to cite as evidence for this court.
"Textualism is a formalist theory in which the interpretation of the law is based exclusively on the ordinary meaning of the legal text, where no consideration is given to non-textual sources, such as intention of the law when passed, the problem it was intended to remedy, or significant questions regarding the justice or rectitude of the law."
Legislative intent didn't save the Voting Rights Act, or the EPA.
themaninthedark · 2h ago
I would assume that the child would be registered with the embassy that the parents are citizens of and there would be an application for a non-resident visa that would be fast tracked.
Greenland, Finland, Norway and Sweden all have no concept of Jus Soli and as far as I know, kids born to non-residents aren't being deported from the hospital.
>Moreover, there is literally no mechanism to prove that your parents are citizens.
I would think a birth certificate would work....
ceejayoz · 45m ago
> I would think a birth certificate would work....
You'd probably be wrong.
> Still, Immigration and Customs Enforcement kept Watson imprisoned as a deportable alien for nearly 3 1/2 years… Watson was correct all along: He was a U.S. citizen.
Bonus: They held him long enough the statute of limitations to sue expired.
> On Monday, an appeals court ruled that Watson, now 32, is not eligible for any of that money — because while his case is "disturbing," the statute of limitations actually expired while he was still in ICE custody without a lawyer.
> A US-born Marine veteran who served in Afghanistan had his US passport, a REAL ID driver’s license, a military ID card, and his US Marine Corps dog tags with him when he was arrested by police in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which held him for three days before his lawyer demanded his release, according to the ACLU of Michigan.
> In her study, she found that, on average, U.S. citizens detained by ICE spent 180 days behind bars.
20after4 · 16m ago
> I would think a birth certificate would work
Without birthright citizenship, a birth certificate no longer implies citizenship.
jandrewrogers · 24m ago
> I would think a birth certificate would work....
Many Americans have no birth certificate. My mother, for example.
slater · 1h ago
>I would think a birth certificate would work....
Remember when the whole entirety of the US right-wing lost their goddamned minds for a year or so re: a sitting president's birth certificate?
NoMoreNicksLeft · 38m ago
>And if the parents are on valid non-resident visas? Suddenly the child has no status?
From where would those parents be, that the child wouldn't automatically inherit their status?
If the Trump administration limited this policy to those people who wouldn't be made stateless, would that soothe your gripes?
>Moreover, there is literally no mechanism to prove that your parents are citizens.
This isn't all that big of a deal. Supposing one can get to the point that they are allowed the opportunity to present such evidence (in front of a judge, or even in front of an administrative arbiter of some sort who is playing fair), then it should be rather trivial to prove this in 99.99% of cases to the standard of proof used in judicial settings.
rawgabbit · 2h ago
What about children born to those on work Visas such as H1B. Does this apply to them?
stevenwoo · 2h ago
Citizen or immigration status does not matter, it depends if they are in a state with the case being litigated in federal court or if they live one of the twenty eight states that did not join the case. The Trump admin can make up whatever rule they want for the other twenty eight states. The Supreme Court just narrowed the specifity of injunctions to solely the litigants which opens up a huge can of worms in American legal system.
insane_dreamer · 2h ago
Federal judges' can't block EOs indefinitely. The WH can appeal to a circuit court, and so on up to the Supreme Court. But it does prevent the Admin from implementing an unconstitutional EO while they wait to be challenged in all states/districts.
I'm not particularly happy about nationwide injunctions, but this is much worse if you have a president who is not shy to "break the law now and fight it in court later". And now that Trump has shown the way, you can be sure future presidents will follow.
Another terrible outcome is that you then have federal orders applied differently from state to state (or more accurately, federal district to district). If you're in Nevada you won't get citizenship, but in Oregon you will.
This is right up there with the Presidential Immunity in terms of terrible decisions by this SCOTUS.
No comments yet
nine_zeros · 3h ago
Now, the administration will keep doing illegal things, and every individual affected will have to file lawsuits to invalidate the illegal thing - after the damage is already done - because nothing is preventing the government from doing illegal things.
redczar · 2h ago
According to Justice Barrett a child born tomorrow in one district in the United States will not have U.S. citizenship but a child born in another one will. Will ICE deport the “noncitizens” born in one district while being prevented from doing so in districts that happen to have a judge that issues an injunction?
This ruling is idiotic even if you are generally opposed to nationwide injunctions. Birthright citizenship is a fundamental and clear cut right. Any attempts to overturn that must meet a high burden of justification. Temporarily suspending such attempts until the matter can firmly be decided causes the least amount of harm and should be allowed.
NoMoreNicksLeft · 24m ago
> Birthright citizenship is a fundamental and clear cut right.
This simply isn't true. It may be a constitutional right in the United States, but even lefty Europe doesn't agree that it is a fundamental right. If it is a constitutional right, one might ask whether it should be or not. It seems as if it might be abused so that some people can ignore and sidestep our immigration laws. One need not apply for a visa at all if you can step across the border and squirt out an infant before ICE can send you back.
I might even argue that this isn't a constitutional right at all... if (as commonly refrained) no one is illegal, then the United States has no legitimate power over them. They're not subject to our jurisdiction in a meaningful way, and thus birthright citizenship doesn't work as most people expect (or apparently want). You might advise expectant immigrant mothers to commit an unignorable crime as soon as they get here, so that they are subject to US jurisdiction.
20after4 · 9m ago
What are you even talking about? I can't make any sense of your argument.
mannyv · 1h ago
The answer is "yes."
That's literally how the court system works. Each circuit has different rules until things are unified by the Supremes.
Just because you haven't paid attention doesn't mean it's idiotic. It allows the judicial system to see what real effects are before having to make a decision.
If someone is going to be deported they can file a case and stop the deportation. It mostly works that way now, and there's no real reason to change it.
pjc50 · 24m ago
Quite difficult to file a lawsuit from a prison in El Salvador.
czbot · 53m ago
Before today’s ruling nationwide injunctions were granted. Not sure how you can now claim “that’s how the court system works” when nationwide injunctions were fine before today’s ruling.
A President can now issue blatantly unconstitutional executive orders and the burden for obtaining relief will rest on each individual person (or small class of people). Prior to today rules/laws that caused harm could be temporarily prevented from being enforced while the matter is litigated. Now parties that will be harmed are much more likely to be harmed before the matter is resolved. This is a sad state of affairs.
If the next President issues an order confiscating guns from people the champions of today’s ruling will want nationwide relief while the matter is litigated.
If someone is going to be deported they can file a case and stop the deportation.
And you accuse OP of not paying attention!
eschaton · 48m ago
Also, just because you did pay attention doesn’t mean it’s not idiotic. The patchwork of interpretations and requirement to sue is a guarantee of unequal treatment under the law, which is exactly what autocrats want.
yieldcrv · 3h ago
Judges were using injunctions to avoid putting their name behind a ruling.
They can absolutely still strike down a law or executive branch policy.
This forces judges to actually do their job., instead of a nationwide injunction while they decide if they want to do their job later.
It doesn’t actually alter some fabric of our democracy or checks and balances, because the judges had already gone beyond what the constitution and congress prescribed.
Every issue that any partisan has with this country is because one branch isn’t doing their job.
The disruptive aspect of this - with concern to the birthright case that hasnt been ruled on yet - is just another example of this. Judges not doing their job.
Supermancho · 3h ago
> Every issue that any partisan has with this country is because one branch isn’t doing their job.
It's impractical to rule on a subject before allowing parties to formulate coherent prepared arguments. Ruling on circumstantial evidence is a temporary stop, leaving the ruling up to an appellate which will invalidate it due to it being founded on circumstantial evidence. The injunctions were the practical way to allows all parties to formulate their case and make a legal reasoning for a ruling. Written law has to be incremental and narrow for interpretation. Otherwise it's an interpretive dance free for all in every case.
You have repeatedly implied that the jobs of Judges are something other than what you they are. Ofc you don't think they are doing what you think they should be. That's inconsequential.
LorenPechtel · 36m ago
How are they not doing their job?
A judge's job is to *judge*. They have basically zero ability to gather evidence, that is the responsibility for the parties to the case.
Would you have them issue a ruling before being presented with evidence? That makes no sense. But at the same time harm can come from not issuing a ruling. Thus we have injunctions--if a judge feels a case is likely to prevail they can issue an injunction prohibiting actions which inflict harm that can't be remedied by the resolution of the case.
kurikuri · 3h ago
> Judges were using injunctions to avoid putting their name behind a ruling.
What? That makes no sense. You can lookup which court and judge (or panel of judges) issued the injunctions. I do not understand why this non-existent anonymity would motivate a judge to issue an injunction.
> They can still strike down a law or executive branch policy.
Federal courts will only look at cases if there is a party with standing who engages in a lawsuit. If someone is being deported without due process, it will be hard for them to bring suit.
> This forces judges to actually do their job., instead of a nationwide injunction while they decide if they want to do their job later.
In general there are two reasons why these temporary restraining orders which have been issued. The first being that not doing so would cause irrevocable (or ridiculously difficult to revoke) harm (e.g., deporting people to a foreign jail). The second is that the TRO is used to stop something which seems illegal on its face (e.g. deporting people to countries from which they have never been).
> It doesn’t actually alter some fabric of our democracy or checks and balances, because the judges had already gone beyond what the constitution and congress prescribed.
It does alter the power dynamic of our democracy. Now, the executive branch can repeatedly perform illegal acts and only needs to stop its behavior in cases which have been decided. This checks and balances isn’t about stopping each other branch in a vacuum, the intent is to stop the government from overreaching on its citizenry. By crippling all of the lower courts, the Supreme Court has created a bureaucratic bottleneck for itself, allowing the executive branch to effectively DDoS the judicial system with case after case.
> The disruptive aspect of this - with concern to the birthright case that hasnt been ruled on yet - is just another example of this. Judges not doing their job.
No, it was the judge telling the executive branch that the executive branch must recognize the citizenship of children born on US soil. Instead of actually appealing the TRO on grounds of the legality of their actions, the executive branch has decided to complain about the legality of a court telling the executive branch to stop.
Who is supposed to tell the executive branch to stop doing something illegal, congress? Part of the point of the executive branch was to allow for some expedience, congress is slow. A judge is in a perfect position to tell the executive branch to stop, they don’t need to wait on committee and are not beholden to the president. Without the ability, the executive branch can quite literally do whatever the president wants.
mistrial9 · 3h ago
this seems more emphatic than convincing.. Can you rewrite this so that it addresses the legal principles at hand, instead of repeating "judges dont do their jobs" ?
yieldcrv · 3h ago
I read the ruling, my post is an accurate summary including my opinion of the circumstances
acoustics · 2h ago
Comparatively, how vulnerable is America to an executive gone wild compared to its peer countries?
The US has a three-tiered judiciary that moves slowly, Congress has a very high threshold for impeachment and removal (and a slow process), and the order of succession is basically locked in for four years. The people are not easily moved to action, and it's doubtful how much they could realistically accomplish.
Universal injunctions were a Band-Aid fix, one of the very few avenues our system permitted for there to be any rapid institutional response to illegal and immediately harmful policy. But that is no more.
As an exercise, what happens if a president issues a "throw enemies in the woodchipper" executive order? How many hours or days would it take the other branches of government to legally nullify the order? (What they can do in practice is another question.)
It's an extreme example, but a future admin could use the current admin's reasoning to unilaterally confiscate guns and force you to be a plaintiff in federal court to get relief.
v5v3 · 1h ago
>Comparatively, how vulnerable is America to an executive gone wild compared to its peer countries?
In the USA, some judges are elected, hearings can be televised, fragmented laws nationwide, court filings often public.
In UK the opening of the judicial year happens in a church service (i.e. biblical punishment is common), many judges are freemasons,court filings not public, courts control what gets to media, the court below supreme court can, and routinely do, block cases from getting to supreme court. And More. In short UK judiciary is institutionally corrupt with the elected and unelected the one and the same but press won't say it.
vizzier · 48m ago
I feel your points are valid but don't really express enough detail. The supreme court in the UK though named the same doesn't really hold anywhere near as much power for the following reasons:
1) There is no written constitution, the supreme court in the UK is only there to interpret existing laws as written not to interpret differences between "tiers" of law
2) The UK has a system that can pass new laws, generally by simple majority so any decision rendered about existing law can be made obsolete generally fairly quickly (In contrast to the current intransigence of the current US system where it is hard to pass primary legislation and virtually impossible to modify the constitution)
3) the court was only established in 2009, and evidently we haven't done much to empower it
A better comparison country might be places like Canada or Australia who do have a written (and harder to modify) constitution.
philistine · 1h ago
You have multiple international agencies thinking of exactly those questions. Here's just one who calls the US a flawed democracy:
They tried to steal an election four years ago by sabotaging the vote certification.
Tadpole9181 · 46m ago
And an attempted, violent coup of legislator! How is this part so easily forgotten!?
msgodel · 1h ago
That ship sailed almost 100 years ago. If you really don't like it you should be campaigning for secession.
Remember: federal power is delegated from the states, not the other way around.
mariodiana · 56m ago
My understanding is that your characterization is true of the Articles of Confederation, but not true of the Constitution. The federal government's power is delegated from the people.
At the top of the Articles, it's pretty clear that the delegates of the states have come together to establish a league of states. At the top of the Constitution, it's explicitly stated that "We the People […] do ordain and establish."
msgodel · 51m ago
Individuals can't (practically) secede. And it is done via the states, for example the state governments choose senators. Right now this is done via popularity contests in every state but there's nothing in the constitution or federal law requiring that.
vel0city · 26m ago
> Individuals can't (practically) secede
Neither can states, either practically or legally.
The US constitution is outdated. There is a whole host of historical experience around totalitarian subversion of democratic constitutions of similar design to the US one. That experience has never been used to update the way the US works. In other words, the manual to overturn the system from the inside has been out there for a long time.
throwaway48476 · 2h ago
The three branch system allows any two to gang up on the third. Parliamentary systems don't have any checks like this and trend towards unitary authoritarians.
LorenPechtel · 34m ago
No. The three branch system allows any two to gang up legally against the third. But, as we are seeing, all the actual power relies with the executive. They can simply ignore the actions of the other two.
pjc50 · 21m ago
What actually happened is that all four branches were held by Republicans, so none of them is going to hold any of the others accountable.
mannyv · 1h ago
The President of the United States has a tremendous amount of authority, more than most people apparently realize.
As an example, the whole COVID shutdown of the USA was a completely unprecedented and probably illegal action. The civil rights fanatics and liberals were like "meh." So it's already happened, really.
chasd00 · 38m ago
The most depressing thing COVID made clear is even in the "land of the free and home of the brave" people will just do what they're told by the authorities.
bobsomers · 24m ago
What if those people consider what they're being told by the authorities, understand that it makes sense, and choose to take that action because it's important for the public good?
Why are people who prioritized public health during a temporary pandemic "sheep", but the President's supporters who demonstrate exceptionally cult-like behavior, "free thinking individuals"?
You can't have it both ways.
slater · 37m ago
Instead of listening to some randos on the internet who "did my own research"?
acoustics · 1h ago
In that case there seemed to be bipartisan consensus—the liberals and civil rights fanatics seemed to largely agree with President Trump's shutdown policies.
standardUser · 2h ago
This is essentially an ad hoc Constitutional Convention being carried out by 6 people, 3 of whom were hand-picked by the sitting president and another of whom is arguably the most corrupt Supreme Court Justice in our history. Nothing is off the table. Anyone who thinks the Constitution can protect them should think again.
calculatte · 2h ago
So it's better to have an ad hoc Constitutional Convention being carried out by any random activist judge appointed by any of the previous political opposition? People sure are high and mighty when their opponent subverts the constitution, but are ridiculously silent when their own party burns the constitution.
kergonath · 2h ago
No. It’s better to have a court that does its job. Reasonable people can accept a decision even if they disagree if the reasoning is not solid than “lol we can so suck it up”.
And yes, anything close to a majority nominated by the sitting president is a constitutional crisis, in a regime where one is supposed to check the other.
throwaway48476 · 2h ago
The courts only have so much power because congress is dysfunctional and kicks every issue to the courts so they don't have to be accountable to voters.
kergonath · 1h ago
Well yeah. That is a problem as well. The whole US government is a steaming mess right now, just because we cannot mention everything that’s wrong every post does not mean that we should not discuss any specific example.
Yes, congress also abdicated its power. At the moment you have an executive branch ignoring law, precedent, and court orders, the legislative branch that is subservient to the executive and a judiciary in a state of civil war. None of that is right. None of the top-level institutions are working as they should.
fzeroracer · 1h ago
The Supreme Court has literally been usurping power from Congress by refusing to read the laws they've passed as written, kicking them back or neutering them knowing that Congress is locked down.
And in this case they're refusing to do their actual job, which is defending the constitutional foundation of our country.
perching_aix · 2h ago
The "i like bagels -> oh so you hate croissants, huh?" framing strikes again.
This is what things going to shit looks like. You may be completely justified in acting the way you are, it just so happens that that's of very little help. Spiraling is pretty tough to prevent at that point.
And yes, very obviously people have an easier time understanding things when they're better aligned with their thinking.
insane_dreamer · 2h ago
> ad hoc Constitutional Convention being carried out by any random activist judge appointed by any of the previous political opposition?
yes because the admin can appeal to a higher court; it at least pauses it so it can be more thoroughly evaluated as to its constitutionality
sbuttgereit · 2h ago
[flagged]
standardUser · 2h ago
I'm talking more broadly about this court and its decisions, of which this decision is one of many that are obliterating precedent and directly empowering the sitting president.
redczar · 2h ago
Want to ban nationwide injunctions against student debt relief? Sure, I can agree with that. Want to ban nationwide injunctions against ACA enforcement or some other similar type thing? I have no problem either way.
Banning a nationwide injunction against birthright citizenship is inherently different. It’s a fundamental constitutional right we are talking about. Banning birthright citizenship should not be allowed to be enforced until SCOTIS decides the matter.
jmyeet · 2h ago
Decisions by courts are often enjoined based on a balancing test as well as the likelihood that the issue will succeed or not.
So, deporting people to a third-country (another decision SCOTUS allowed this term) has a simple balancing test: stay here and be fine or possibly deport a Chinese citizen to El Salvador, which could cause incredible harm. So even ignoring th elikelihood of how the issue is decided, the balancing test favors enjoining third-party deportation.
So in this case, we had a universal injunction against an executive order removing birthright citizenship. This fails on two fronts:
1. As justices noted, it's highly unlikely that the order will be held up as constitutional. There is case law on this. The language of the 14th amendment is clear. The exact issue was discussed at the time. This has no hope in a non-corrupt court of succeeding.
2. Given other decisions, bona fide US citizens could be deported to CECOT and detained indefinitely with no due process. So it should be stayed because of the potential harm.
What SCOTUS did today was say the order revoking birthright citizenship was unlikely to succeed but it allows the administration to proceed anyway while hte issue is litigated in the courts, which could take years.
That's how corrupt this court is.
People have been fed this propaganda that Supreme Court justices are apolitical legal scholars who come down from their tower to issue judgements and keep things in check. It couldn't be further from the truth. Supreme Court justices are political appointees that dress up their political positions in legalese.
Example 1: this court invented the "major questions doctrine" whereby the court decides a matter is large enough that the court gets to override both the administrative and legislative branches.
Example 2: they also invented the "historical traditions doctrine", which is used selectively. For example, abortion was completely legal 200+ years ago. Ben Franklin even published at-home instructions on how to perform an abortion [1].
Example 3: in the wake of the Civil War there was huge violence not from the freed slaves but from white people towards former slaves, most notably with the Colfax massacre. The Supreme Court went on a white supremacist tear during Reconstruction, notably gutting the federal government's ability to prosecute hate crimes like Colfax [2].
Example 4: The Tiney court in the 1850s made what is perhaps one of the worst decisions ever made (ie Dred Scott), arguing from a legal and constitutional perspective that black people weren't "people".
Example 5: the Roberts court decided that moeny equals speech, gutting any legislation around campaign spending, which is a big part of how we got here.
Example 6: the presidential immunity decision will go down in history as one of the 10 or even 5 worst decisions ever made. It completely invented far-reaching immunity that essentially made the president a king, in a country that was founded on the very idea of rejecting monarchs.
Example 7: in 1984, the Supreme Court decided that in any areas of ambiguity in legislation, trial courts should defer to the agency empowered by Congress to enforce that legislation. This is the so-called "Chevron deference".
More than 40 years passed through 7 presidents (4 Republican and 3 Democrat) where both parties at different times controlled Congress. Congress declined to legislate away Chevron deference despite having ample opportunity to do so. Moreso, they intentionally wrote legislation with Chevron deference in mind yet this court decided to reverse Chevron. Yet on other cases, the court has deferred to Congress's inaction as intent.
Fun fact: Chevron v Natural Resources Defense Council was previously known as Natural Resources Defense Council v. Gorsuch [3]. That's not a coincidence. The suit involved Reagan's head of dthe EPA, Anna Gorsuch, mother of current Supreme Court justice Neil Gorsuch, who was humiliated and ultimately fired from the EPA while trying to destroy it from within.
Unfortunately, the US seems to be rapidly sliding into a combination of effectively/mostly one-party rule, oligarchy, corporatocracy, and to a lesser but visible extent, theocracy.
With the US Supreme Court strongly tilted toward all four, its an extremely difficult hole to climb out of.
I don't see a dictatorship (anytime soon). Not out of any abundance of optimism, but simply that all four of those constituencies and the Supreme Court's dominant wing itself, are highly aligned with each other, and would all lose out if it goes that far.
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cmurf · 4h ago
There's no legal reasoning. If there's a D president again, this gets reversed early on.
Nationwide injunctions were saught and used by (self-proclaimed) conservatives to slow down and stop Biden immigration policies.
mannyv · 4h ago
You need to actually read the decision. There's plenty of legal reasoning. You may not agree with it, but your opinion is irrelevant.
One thing they didn't talk about was structural: the court system is split up into X circuits, and each circuit is independent. Normally each circuit uses rulings from other circuits as a basis for its judgements, but circuits are pretty independent from each other. The Supremes weigh in when the circuits conflicted with each other.
The national injunctions issued by the lower court allowed the lowest level court to have more authority than an appeals court. An appellate court's decision was only binding on its circuit. Why would a lower court have more authority than an appeals court? That makes no sense.
That's outside of all the reasoning the court used to stop this practice.
That said, if an affected individual brought a suit the may be able to get an injunction, since the court ruled that universal injunctions were inappropriate.
vharuck · 2h ago
>Why would a lower court have more authority than an appeals court? That makes no sense.
An appellate court considers the decisions of the courts below it, so it makes sense its actions would be restricted to those courts. What makes no sense is the newly possible situation in which an action violates the U.S. Constitution in one district but not another.
chasd00 · 32m ago
>an action violates the U.S. Constitution in one district but not another.
aren't those cases the point of the Supreme Court? when districts conflict it goes to the Supreme Court.
delecti · 2h ago
> What makes no sense is the newly possible situation in which an action violates the U.S. Constitution in one district but not another
That's not new. It's called a circuit split, and generally results in the cases being combined when SCOTUS hears them to sort out the difference.
15155 · 4h ago
> this gets reversed early on.
Through what legal avenue?
yongjik · 1h ago
[flagged]
AngryData · 35m ago
So what do you want 2A supporters to do exactly? Start shooting government officials? Because I guarantee you would call them nut job terrorists if they did.
yongjik · 26m ago
Yeah it's as if having your citizens armed is a bad idea, because there's very little chance it could be actually useful in a real life scenario while the society slowly slides into tyranny.
krapp · 26m ago
To be fair, that is exactly what 2A supporters have claimed they're willing, ready and able to do, and what the 2A is intended to allow. Every single time there's a mass shooting or other such event, they're the first to start lecturing people on how that violence a price worth paying to have an armed populace around keeping the government in check, and that the threat of popular violence is the only thing keeping the government in check. An armed society is a civil society, and what not.
So yeah. Do a "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants," already. The gun people were more than willing when they thought a Democrat was stealing their votes or Bill Gates was putting microchips in vaccines.
chriscrisby · 3h ago
It’s ridiculous that any President (whether he’s from your favorite team or not) has to appease 300+ judges is ridiculous. There will always be biased judges who will only rule to obstruct.
somanyphotons · 3h ago
> has to appease 300+ judges is ridiculous
They don't, they appeal straight up to the 9 judges that they actually have to appease
sjsdaiuasgdia · 2h ago
If you don't do a bunch of illegal shit that violates people's rights, you don't end up in court as much. It's not that hard to figure out.
quotemstr · 2h ago
And one guy gets to decide what's legal?
arp242 · 2h ago
Yes, this is literally the entire job description of a judge: to "judge" if someone broke the law. Details on what judges have jurisdiction over differ (in some countries they can't rule on constitutional matters), but this is basically how it works everywhere. You have appeals processes and whatnot to deal with mistakes. This is civics 101 separation of powers stuff.
sjsdaiuasgdia · 2h ago
"It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is."
- Marbury vs Madison, 1803
chasd00 · 31m ago
"judicial department", not one person.
redczar · 2h ago
What was issued was a temporary restriction from implementing the executive order until the matter is decided. No one issued an order declaring the executive order illegal.
fzeroracer · 1h ago
You mean like the President? The President of the United States of America whom is deciding that parts of our constitution, our founding legal document isn't actually legally binding?
_DeadFred_ · 2h ago
Those 300 judges are only a temporary check. They get to say 'hold on, we're going to put this on pause while we make sure it's constitutional'. The 9 people that determine what are legal can then unpause that pause at any time if it is not based on sound thought.
Do you feel that temporary checks (that can be easily reversed) to ensure the government is behaving in a constitutional way are ridiculous?
gsibble · 2h ago
And the final check today but the Supreme Court said those judges were wrong and don't get to do that anymore.
redczar · 2h ago
And they are wrong to do so. Right now a child born in one district in the U.S. will have birthright citizenship while children in every other district won’t. This is an inherently stupid state of affairs.
redczar · 2h ago
An injunction is not a judgment. It is temporary. A new rule or law is passed. It might be unconstitutional or otherwise not enforceable. Until this can be sorted out sometimes the law/rule is blocked until it is sorted out. Since the law/rule was not in place before the suit it is sometimes ok to temporarily block the rule until it’s legality can be determined. One goes by the principle of causing least harm.
It causes the least harm to block the birthright executive order until it’s legality can be determined. Therefore it should be blocked nationwide.
croes · 2h ago
So why didn’t it happen to such extent before?
monocularvision · 2h ago
It absolutely did. The Biden administration was hit with so many nationwide injunctions that they also requested that the SC limit them.
ceejayoz · 41m ago
Limiting and doing away with them aren't the same thing.
I'd love to see higher requirements for issuing them, and an expedited appeals process to review them. I'd like to see protections against judge shopping (as endorsed by both Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer: https://www.texastribune.org/2024/04/11/judge-shopping-texas...) We know SCOTUS can move very fast when they feel like it.
JacobGoodson · 14m ago
trump estimation so far: 81-103
biden estimation: 14-28
Strategically, the government could enact a policy affecting a million people, be sued, lose, provide relief to the named plaintiffs, and then not appeal the decision. The upper courts never get the opportunity to make binding precedent, the lower courts do not get to extend relief to non-plaintiffs, and the government gets to enforce its illegal policies on the vast majority of people who did not (likely could not) sue.
Now we get to see Americans have their legitimacy removed so they can be sent to "Alligator Alcatraz", the new prison being built just for them in the Everglades.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/10/us/politics/donald-trump-...
Enjoy the chaos though, because some later administration as a revenge will very likely strip the rights of folks who can't show a naturalization certificate in the same way.
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
Note the "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof". Trump's argument is that people born in America to tourist parents here for a few weeks (for example) aren't subject to the jurisdiction of America. It's a valid argument to make, even if you come down on a different side. Even the author of the 14th amendment said that was the point of that clause. Even in logical terms it makes sense: You can't just let anyone in to give birth and then collect benefits; it's unsustainable.
However, this case wasn't about citizenship. It was about the broader issue of lower courts issuing restraining orders outside their jurisdictions. It's a recipe for chaos. There's a reason why there are multiple jurisdictions, and courts are limited to their jurisdictions. What happens when two lower courts issue conflicting nationwide orders? The only court in the US that has jurisdiction over the entire country is the Supreme Court. This was a losing battle.
There's a right way and a wrong way to go about addressing problems. Court cases are sometimes more about the core issues involved than the concrete circumstances. Sure, birthright citizenship was the reason for the suit, but the core issue was judicial overreach. Don't get mad because the way your side was "winning" was by cheating, and they were stopped. Try having an actual good argument, and doing things the right way by arguing the actual case in a court.
There's a right way and a wrong way to go about addressing problems. If the president wants to exclude children of illegal immigrants from citizenship, he can lead an effort to amend the constitution.
I suspect, if they commit a crime or overstay their visa, we'll suddenly decide we have a little jurisdiction after all.
So it reads to me like we've ended up in a similar spot, but with the requirement that an insane amount of paperwork happens.
You mean like under their own judgement?
IANAL but I read SCOTUS opinions regularly and this one is hard to argue with. If things should be different then we need legislative/constitutional changes.
lol, yes, like birthright citizenship written plainly into the constitution.
What good are your further legislative/constitutional changes worth if the executive can just ignore them except for the single individuals who file suit?
1. The executive is doing something illegal to hundreds of thousands of people.
2. Dozens and hundreds of people sue them.
3. The executive loses in court.
4. The executive does not appeal to the supreme court the cases it lost.
5. Thus, no binding precedent that stops the illegal action in #1 is set.
This is actual lawless lunacy, and this enshrines it as SOP going forward. Is this the country you want to live in? Do you think this is how it should run?
Here's a wild idea. If the executive disagrees with the federal courts on the merits of whether or not its decisions are illegal, it can appeal up to SCOTUS, and win a case on its merits. It can't do that because even under this SCOTUS, their case has no merits.
> exercising his authority under the constitution pending a review
That is the entire bloody point of checks and balances. You are cheer-leading the complete destruction of them. The government, when challenged on the legality of what its doing, needs to win their case in court, because the courts are the final arbiters of written law.
Nationwide injunctions were never clearly authorized by statute, and letting any one of 700 district judges block a federal policy everywhere created chaos and forum shopping.
If a policy is truly unconstitutional, the proper path is a class action or taking it up to the Supreme Court
Not giving individual judges a veto over national law.
So every person wronged by the government should sue individually?
It's not a veto, it's a delay until appeal. If the lower court is wrong, SCOTUS has never had any issue with settling the question.
The fact that the government isn't appealing means that they know they can't win on appeal, and what they are doing is illegal.
If the executive avoids appeals to dodge precedent, that’s a separate (and valid) concern. But the solution isn’t to stretch injunction power beyond its legal limits
It is about who gets to block national policy for everyone, based on one local case. That kind of sweeping relief was never authorized by Congress
Yes, this has been going on for decades at various levels of government.
It's very common when it comes to gun rights. The government (local/state and federal) will frequently avoid appealing if they think they might then lose the case, setting a wide precedent for millions of people.
The POTUS doesn't need to ask for permission to politicized local judges
It can't just be, I don't know, a plain reading of the fucking law.
It's time to Balkanize.
The purpose of courts litigating the legality of executive actions is not establishing innocence or guilt, so what you're saying is completely irrelevant.
The president doesn't go to prison because some court found that he signed an illegal executive order. (But it sounds like you maybe think that should be the case. It's hard to tell, because you aren't saying anything coherent.)
> The POTUS doesn't need to ask for permission to politicized local judges
Let's play a simple game. If he signs a blatantly unconstitutional and illegal EO ordering the US Marshals to have you and your family arrested, tortured, and shot tomorrow, whose permission do you think he should need? Which parts of the government would be able to stop him?
You seem to think that no 'politicized'[1] judge should be allowed to say "Whoa, hold on there, that may be illegal."
---
[1] What the hell does 'politicized' mean? Is there a single person in government who is not 'politicized'? Is SCOTUS somehow not 'politicized'? Is the executive?
In the meantime, when I sue John Doe and get an injunction, they are enjoined from their conduct everywhere; but when I sue the government, it should only apply to me? Makes no sense.
I could extend some merit to the idea that injunctions should be limited in complex cases where case law is thin and the law is less than clear. When executive orders are clearly unconstitutional, however, I do not then see any reason for limits.
The law that states that growing wheat on your own land is interstate commerce.
This ruling does not "restore" a functioning balance, it damages it. This has never been a problem in the past because previous administrations (regardless of politics) didn't take illegal actions daily. Framing it as "politics" is disingenuous as many of the judges ruling against Trump were appointed by him.
The system was working as intended to check an executive acting outside of the law, but once again, the supreme court continues to empower the executive.
[0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933
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Justice Sotomayor dissents:
> Instead, the Government says, it should be able to apply the Citizenship Order (whose legality it does not defend) to everyone except the plaintiffs who filed this lawsuit.
If that’s the case, I’m curious if it could be fixed with a class action, so everyone (or everyone born in the US) is a plaintiff? If that’s legally a thing.
What you describe is voting
We’re in this mess because people are not interested enough, educated enough, or engaged enough politically to make their position explicit to drive the direction of legislation and executive action.
Citizens of The United States have every tool available to to work together to shape their communities. The reality is the overwhelming majority do not do that, and you can come up with a lot of reasons why, which are structural in many cases, but the fact remains that the majority of people are not involved in the political process at all, have no desire to be an actively reject any opportunity to be.
Assuming that citizens would all of a sudden become involved because it requires a lawsuit, means that there’s the capacity to do so, which does not exist, and all we need is a catalyst.
If the number of possible catalysts that have already happened in the last decade we’re not sufficient then nothing short of a literal terminator Skynet scenario is going to cause people to take action and I’m increasingly doubtful that even that would do it.
Based on my observation from my work position, people are ready to just roll over onto their backs and have robots slice them from the belly up, because it’s easier than actually doing something that would prevent it.
I would not have thought that this is what the Constitution says, but the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of what the Constitution says. That's not in the Constitution, either, but they've appropriated that job for two centuries, so we let them get away with it. The "it's not illegal if the President does it" part is new, though they've been leading up to it for decades, so it's not really surprising.
Edit: actually, even that is overstating it. This is an extremely narrow ruling that is mainly about the powers of federal judges. It's the sort of ruling that the "other side" will trumpet as settled law when they're the ones in power again.
Forgive student loans? No authority!
End birthright citizenship? Well, he's the boss!
You're right, though, it is different; birthright citizenship is spelled out, very clearly, in the Constitution. It's an even plainer wrong.
It's Calvinball.
Likewise, in 1868 the writers of the fourteenth amendment probably couldn’t conceive of rapid international travel and the possibility that pregnant women could just show up weeks before their due date and their newborn child should “obviously” be an American citizen.
The amendment was quite obviously targeted at Native Americans and slaves, not any and all pregnant women the world over who manage to reach the US before giving birth. But as you’re noticing, there’s multiple ways people can interpret laws. It’s rarely as cut and dry as “this is obviously against the law!!!”
There's no written rule that the boss's son is gonna get the cushy VP slot, but everyone knows it.
Where was SCOTUS when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_O%27Connor issued all his nationwide injunctions?
> California Attorney General Rob Bonta, a co-plaintiff, looked for a silver lining: Red states, which sought universal injunctions to stymie Biden administration policies, would encounter obstacles pursuing that strategy under a future Democratic president, he said.
Call me a crazy, glass-half-full centrist, but I prefer to look at this as a clawing back of extremely broad powers from rather partisan judges. It's been maddening that circuit court judges in a few hyper-partisan districts basically push every decision to the Supreme Court.
[1] https://www.wsj.com/us-news/law/scotus-birthright-citizenshi...
Sure, and Susan Collins thinks Trump "learned his lesson" with his first impeachment. Looking for the silver lining is what we sometimes call "cope". He lost. As a politician, he's obliged to put some spin on it.
> It's been rather maddening that circuit court judges basically push every decision to the Supreme Court.
It is. This sort of thing should've died before ever becoming an EO, and at every level of the judiciary as clearly unconstitutional. That it didn't is a big problem.
No, stare decisis is not binding. Nor does it still exist.
If it was not binding, did it ever exist?
Anyway, there's nothing that binds any Supreme Court to do anything at all. This argument terminates in noise. It's just partisan fretting.
We agree. So your remark about “nothing in the ruling says. . .” was actually irrelevant to the broader point. From a lacuna in a decision we can conclude nothing.
Beyond that, no. We also don't agree that that world is the one that we live in.
For example, a president is granted authority to command the military and issue pardons. They have absolute immunity for any act performed using these authorities, including illegal acts such as assassinating or deporting a political opponent or accepting bribes in return for pardons. This is not a matter of opinion or a controversial interpretation, these consequences were discussed during the case and in the opinion, and the court accepted them.
> Mr. MADISON, objected to a trial of the President by the Senate, especially as he was to be impeached by the other branch of the Legislature, and for any act which might be called a misdemeanor. The President under these circumstances was made improperly dependent. He would prefer the Supreme Court for the trial of impeachments, or rather a tribunal of which that should form a part.
> Mr. PINKNEY disapproved of making the Senate the Court of impeachments, as rendering the President too dependent on the Legislature. If he opposes a favorite law, the two Houses will combine agst. him, and under the influence of heat and faction throw him out of office.
Ultimately it was decided that "in four years he can be turned out", so it was not worth addressing further. Indeed some argued that the President should not be impeachable at all because of this.
> Mr. KING expressed his apprehensions that an extreme caution in favor of liberty might enervate the Government we were forming. He wished the House to recur to the primitive axiom that the three great departments of Govts. should be separate & independent: that the Executive & Judiciary should be so as well as the Legislative: that the Executive should be so equally with the Judiciary. Would this be the case, if the Executive should be impeachable? It had been said that the Judiciary would be impeachable. But it should have been remembered at the same time that the Judiciary hold their places not for a limited time, but during good behaviour. It is necessary therefore that a forum should be established for trying misbehaviour. Was the Executive to hold his place during good behaviour? The Executive was to hold his place for a limited term like the members of the Legislature: Like them particularly the Senate whose members would continue in appointmt the same term of 6 years he would periodically be tried for his behaviour by his electors, who would continue or discontinue him in trust according to the manner in which he had discharged it. Like them therefore, he ought to be subject to no intermediate trial, by impeachment. He ought not to be impeachable unless he held his office during good behaviour, a tenure which would be most agreeable to him; provided an independent and effectual forum could be devised. But under no circumstances ought he to be impeachable by the Legislature. This would be destructive of his independence and of the principles of the Constitution. He relied on the vigor of the Executive as a great security for the public liberties.
And notably, exactly the same Republican-nominated Supreme Court judges did not do anything to interfere with exactly the same legal process (nationwide injunctions) when they were aimed at a Democratic president. See, e.g. Biden's student loan forgiveness executive order.
Yep, agreed. I already added an edit saying exactly the same thing.
The president absolutely is accountable. The problem is the Congress for their own reasons refuse to hold it to account. The Congress could remove any president in less than 24 hours with simple majority for no reason whatsoever.
The Court has long considered that the president has a duty to follow the law, but also that the Court can’t compel the president to follow the law. That is a political question. Congress alone can stop a president by impeaching and removing them from office. Not only can’t the Court initiate impeachments, impeachment is unreviewable by the Court.
If there’s a servile Congress, it means voters can elect a law breaker as president. They are going to get a president who breaks the law.
And this is what’s happening. People voted for an abuser, a rapist, a felon, a conspiracy theorist who lies about the outcome of elections, lies that VPOTUS can and should overturn them, and even sent a mob to have that VPOTUS assassinated for refusing to comply with that illegal order. Then boasted he’d pardon all those criminals who were in his service. And despite all of this, people voted for him again.
The people got exactly what they voted for.
https://www.npr.org/2025/06/26/nx-s1-5447450/trump-2024-elec...
The problem is that Dems are just culturally irrelevant. Most people don't care about issues, policy or the economy, they just want to cheer for a team and will justify everything their team does regardless of efficacy or outcome. Trump is the fun underdog team that everyone is talking about, the Dems are the boring party-pooper team we all love to hate. During covid, that boring became a source of needed stability, but after boring stewarded us through the crisis, nobody wanted to be associated with them again.
Remember, force is out of the question because it will provide justification for the oppression and make people more willing to accept it.
The illusion some want you to believe, is that it is.
“The preferences of the average American appear to have only a miniscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.”
https://act.represent.us/sign/problempoll-fba
And they actively vote against the will of their constituents 35% of the time. http://promarket.org/2017/06/16/study-politicians-vote-will-...
A prime example of this is the immigration system. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/podcasts/the-daily/electi... (“On the Ballot: An Immigration System Most Americans Never Wanted”). Americans never asked to import tens of millions of people from the third world. When Congress reformed the immigration system in 1965, they promised that wouldn’t happen. But for decades, there’s been a coalition of pro-foreigner liberals and pro-cheap-labor conservatives that have facilitated massive immigration that average americans never asked for.
Trump, ironically, is a reaction to the very thing the Princeton study identified.
The case when everyone agrees doesn’t tell you anything. It’s only when people disagree that you can find who has actual power and in this case the general public has effectively zero actual meaningful power day to day.
Systematic voter suppression plus gerrymandering etc may win you rigged elections, but ultimately voting isn’t about the system in place it’s avoidance unrest. We’re entering uncharted territory with how strongly people disagree with what the government is doing, which is where the general public actually has a say, namely by destroying the existing power structures rather than voting. It’s not even a question of insurrection, not having kids plus 60’s style dropping out at scale is ruinous.
It does tell you something. For example, if people mostly disagreed with the elites, but the elites got their way anyway, that would be a different situation.
> We’re entering uncharted territory with how strongly people disagree with what the government is doing
You’re overestimating how much people care about any of this stuff. I’m in a blue state and I hear almost nothing about it other than from some overly empathetic people on facebook. The “protests” recently were tepid and nearly all elderly liberals with nothing better to do.
A big chunk of the country really wants mass deportations, and for the most part, folks in the broader left don’t care much to oppose it.
You can’t shape your community to overcome the power of the federal government.
“Yet our best-trained, best-educated, best-equipped, best-prepared troops refuse to fight. Matter of fact it's safe to say that they would rather switch than fight.”
However, I am reasonably certain we could rouse the public to action by shutting off the thing that keeps us all distracted, unable to organize, and helpless: the Internet.
Not expecting a positive reaction from this crowd, as we’re pretty much responsible for the creation of this monster. Just my 2 cents.
1. I quit drinking for the time being. This had a modest but real effect on my mood and general wellbeing. It has pros and cons, but on balance it's a win for where I'm at and what I'm trying to do. I might choose differently in the future.
2. I installed GrapheneOS and built NixOS, from source, with fairly extreme choices about networking. This had a staggering effect on every aspect of how I think and feel: cutting the surveillance capitalism at the network level is like having a mass of rage and angst and blurry confusion taken out of my head. I will never, ever go back to that.
Its time for everyone to cut the cord. Get a Pixel, an 8a open box at best buy can be 200-300, install Lineage or Calyx or Graphene, and reclaim ownership of your brain.
> There is a serious question, moreover, whether this Court will ever get the chance to rule on the constitutionality of a policy like the Citizenship Order. Contra, ante, at 6 (opinion of KAVANAUGH, J.) (“[T]he losing parties in the courts of appeals will regularly come to this Court in matters involving major new federal statutes and executive actions”). In the ordinary course, parties who prevail in the lower courts generally cannot seek review from this Court, likely leaving it up to the Government’s discretion whether a petition will be filed here. These cases prove the point: Every court to consider the Citizenship Order’s merits has found that it is unconstitutional in preliminary rulings. Because respondents prevailed on the merits and received universal injunctions, they have no reason to file an appeal. The Government has no incentive to file a petition here either, because the outcome of such an appeal would be preordained. The Government recognizes as much, which is why its emergency applications challenged only the scope of the preliminary injunctions
This is a whole-sale shredding of the constitution.
Indeed, this is one of the concerns of the dissenting opinions.
"No right is safe in the new legal regime the court creates. Today, the threat is to birthright citizenship. Tomorrow, a different administration may try to seize firearms from law-abiding citizens or prevent people of certain faiths from gathering to worship. The majority holds that, absent cumbersome class-action litigation, courts cannot completely enjoin even such plainly unlawful policies unless doing so is necessary to afford the formal parties complete relief. That holding renders constitutional guarantees meaningful in name only for any individuals who are not parties to a lawsuit. Because I will not be complicit in so grave an attack on our system of law, I dissent."
Was it taken away illegally?
Without arguments to that, it IS FUD.
Every federal judicial district (that's one per state in smaller states, but more in larger states—California has four.)
North and South?
https://www.caed.uscourts.gov/caednew/index.cfm/cmecf-e-fili...
https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/about-federal-...
1. File a suit in every circuit
2. Request an injunction type that's more appropriate
Given the number of babies being born every day it shouldn't be hard to do.
The thing is, the US doesn't issue citizenship papers. So I suppose they need to apply for an SSN and get denied (since the baby is a non-citizen), which will show immediate harm.
It also begs the question: if that baby is illegal can it be deported?
The thing here is that instead of officially denying it, the administration will just "coincidentally" slow-walk everything indefinitely, then illegally exile the baby to Sudan when ICE notices they don't have proof of citizenship.
The administration isn't going to slow down processing for everyone, because actual citizens will have issues as well. That will be even more problematic.
Moreover, there is literally no mechanism to prove that your parents are citizens.
Millions of citizens will be at the whim of whatever racist thug decides to hurt them that day.
Welcome to Fascist America.
Let's not pretend all assertions are equally worth entertaining. Maybe it's "misleading" if you're Stephen Miller, but every court case where it's ever been heard and the legislative record at the time of adopting the 14th amendment show that citizenship is guaranteed. The Trump administration hasn't even raised it in appeals!
> Howard said that the clause "is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States."[30] He added that citizenship "will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons"[30]—a comment which would later raise questions as to whether Congress had originally intended that U.S.-born children of foreign parents were to be included as citizens.[32]
That'd be a deeply ironic thing to cite as evidence for this court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textualism
"Textualism is a formalist theory in which the interpretation of the law is based exclusively on the ordinary meaning of the legal text, where no consideration is given to non-textual sources, such as intention of the law when passed, the problem it was intended to remedy, or significant questions regarding the justice or rectitude of the law."
Legislative intent didn't save the Voting Rights Act, or the EPA.
Greenland, Finland, Norway and Sweden all have no concept of Jus Soli and as far as I know, kids born to non-residents aren't being deported from the hospital.
>Moreover, there is literally no mechanism to prove that your parents are citizens.
I would think a birth certificate would work....
You'd probably be wrong.
> Still, Immigration and Customs Enforcement kept Watson imprisoned as a deportable alien for nearly 3 1/2 years… Watson was correct all along: He was a U.S. citizen.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/01/540903038...
Bonus: They held him long enough the statute of limitations to sue expired.
> On Monday, an appeals court ruled that Watson, now 32, is not eligible for any of that money — because while his case is "disturbing," the statute of limitations actually expired while he was still in ICE custody without a lawyer.
Even a passport isn't enough:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/hamedaleaziz/us-born-ma...
> A US-born Marine veteran who served in Afghanistan had his US passport, a REAL ID driver’s license, a military ID card, and his US Marine Corps dog tags with him when he was arrested by police in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which held him for three days before his lawyer demanded his release, according to the ACLU of Michigan.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-ice-detained-c...
> In her study, she found that, on average, U.S. citizens detained by ICE spent 180 days behind bars.
Without birthright citizenship, a birth certificate no longer implies citizenship.
Many Americans have no birth certificate. My mother, for example.
Remember when the whole entirety of the US right-wing lost their goddamned minds for a year or so re: a sitting president's birth certificate?
From where would those parents be, that the child wouldn't automatically inherit their status?
If the Trump administration limited this policy to those people who wouldn't be made stateless, would that soothe your gripes?
>Moreover, there is literally no mechanism to prove that your parents are citizens.
This isn't all that big of a deal. Supposing one can get to the point that they are allowed the opportunity to present such evidence (in front of a judge, or even in front of an administrative arbiter of some sort who is playing fair), then it should be rather trivial to prove this in 99.99% of cases to the standard of proof used in judicial settings.
I'm not particularly happy about nationwide injunctions, but this is much worse if you have a president who is not shy to "break the law now and fight it in court later". And now that Trump has shown the way, you can be sure future presidents will follow.
Another terrible outcome is that you then have federal orders applied differently from state to state (or more accurately, federal district to district). If you're in Nevada you won't get citizenship, but in Oregon you will.
This is right up there with the Presidential Immunity in terms of terrible decisions by this SCOTUS.
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This ruling is idiotic even if you are generally opposed to nationwide injunctions. Birthright citizenship is a fundamental and clear cut right. Any attempts to overturn that must meet a high burden of justification. Temporarily suspending such attempts until the matter can firmly be decided causes the least amount of harm and should be allowed.
This simply isn't true. It may be a constitutional right in the United States, but even lefty Europe doesn't agree that it is a fundamental right. If it is a constitutional right, one might ask whether it should be or not. It seems as if it might be abused so that some people can ignore and sidestep our immigration laws. One need not apply for a visa at all if you can step across the border and squirt out an infant before ICE can send you back.
I might even argue that this isn't a constitutional right at all... if (as commonly refrained) no one is illegal, then the United States has no legitimate power over them. They're not subject to our jurisdiction in a meaningful way, and thus birthright citizenship doesn't work as most people expect (or apparently want). You might advise expectant immigrant mothers to commit an unignorable crime as soon as they get here, so that they are subject to US jurisdiction.
That's literally how the court system works. Each circuit has different rules until things are unified by the Supremes.
Just because you haven't paid attention doesn't mean it's idiotic. It allows the judicial system to see what real effects are before having to make a decision.
If someone is going to be deported they can file a case and stop the deportation. It mostly works that way now, and there's no real reason to change it.
A President can now issue blatantly unconstitutional executive orders and the burden for obtaining relief will rest on each individual person (or small class of people). Prior to today rules/laws that caused harm could be temporarily prevented from being enforced while the matter is litigated. Now parties that will be harmed are much more likely to be harmed before the matter is resolved. This is a sad state of affairs.
If the next President issues an order confiscating guns from people the champions of today’s ruling will want nationwide relief while the matter is litigated.
If someone is going to be deported they can file a case and stop the deportation.
And you accuse OP of not paying attention!
They can absolutely still strike down a law or executive branch policy.
This forces judges to actually do their job., instead of a nationwide injunction while they decide if they want to do their job later.
It doesn’t actually alter some fabric of our democracy or checks and balances, because the judges had already gone beyond what the constitution and congress prescribed.
Every issue that any partisan has with this country is because one branch isn’t doing their job.
The disruptive aspect of this - with concern to the birthright case that hasnt been ruled on yet - is just another example of this. Judges not doing their job.
It's impractical to rule on a subject before allowing parties to formulate coherent prepared arguments. Ruling on circumstantial evidence is a temporary stop, leaving the ruling up to an appellate which will invalidate it due to it being founded on circumstantial evidence. The injunctions were the practical way to allows all parties to formulate their case and make a legal reasoning for a ruling. Written law has to be incremental and narrow for interpretation. Otherwise it's an interpretive dance free for all in every case.
You have repeatedly implied that the jobs of Judges are something other than what you they are. Ofc you don't think they are doing what you think they should be. That's inconsequential.
A judge's job is to *judge*. They have basically zero ability to gather evidence, that is the responsibility for the parties to the case.
Would you have them issue a ruling before being presented with evidence? That makes no sense. But at the same time harm can come from not issuing a ruling. Thus we have injunctions--if a judge feels a case is likely to prevail they can issue an injunction prohibiting actions which inflict harm that can't be remedied by the resolution of the case.
What? That makes no sense. You can lookup which court and judge (or panel of judges) issued the injunctions. I do not understand why this non-existent anonymity would motivate a judge to issue an injunction.
> They can still strike down a law or executive branch policy.
Federal courts will only look at cases if there is a party with standing who engages in a lawsuit. If someone is being deported without due process, it will be hard for them to bring suit.
> This forces judges to actually do their job., instead of a nationwide injunction while they decide if they want to do their job later.
In general there are two reasons why these temporary restraining orders which have been issued. The first being that not doing so would cause irrevocable (or ridiculously difficult to revoke) harm (e.g., deporting people to a foreign jail). The second is that the TRO is used to stop something which seems illegal on its face (e.g. deporting people to countries from which they have never been).
> It doesn’t actually alter some fabric of our democracy or checks and balances, because the judges had already gone beyond what the constitution and congress prescribed.
It does alter the power dynamic of our democracy. Now, the executive branch can repeatedly perform illegal acts and only needs to stop its behavior in cases which have been decided. This checks and balances isn’t about stopping each other branch in a vacuum, the intent is to stop the government from overreaching on its citizenry. By crippling all of the lower courts, the Supreme Court has created a bureaucratic bottleneck for itself, allowing the executive branch to effectively DDoS the judicial system with case after case.
> The disruptive aspect of this - with concern to the birthright case that hasnt been ruled on yet - is just another example of this. Judges not doing their job.
No, it was the judge telling the executive branch that the executive branch must recognize the citizenship of children born on US soil. Instead of actually appealing the TRO on grounds of the legality of their actions, the executive branch has decided to complain about the legality of a court telling the executive branch to stop.
Who is supposed to tell the executive branch to stop doing something illegal, congress? Part of the point of the executive branch was to allow for some expedience, congress is slow. A judge is in a perfect position to tell the executive branch to stop, they don’t need to wait on committee and are not beholden to the president. Without the ability, the executive branch can quite literally do whatever the president wants.
The US has a three-tiered judiciary that moves slowly, Congress has a very high threshold for impeachment and removal (and a slow process), and the order of succession is basically locked in for four years. The people are not easily moved to action, and it's doubtful how much they could realistically accomplish.
Universal injunctions were a Band-Aid fix, one of the very few avenues our system permitted for there to be any rapid institutional response to illegal and immediately harmful policy. But that is no more.
As an exercise, what happens if a president issues a "throw enemies in the woodchipper" executive order? How many hours or days would it take the other branches of government to legally nullify the order? (What they can do in practice is another question.)
It's an extreme example, but a future admin could use the current admin's reasoning to unilaterally confiscate guns and force you to be a plaintiff in federal court to get relief.
In the USA, some judges are elected, hearings can be televised, fragmented laws nationwide, court filings often public.
In UK the opening of the judicial year happens in a church service (i.e. biblical punishment is common), many judges are freemasons,court filings not public, courts control what gets to media, the court below supreme court can, and routinely do, block cases from getting to supreme court. And More. In short UK judiciary is institutionally corrupt with the elected and unelected the one and the same but press won't say it.
1) There is no written constitution, the supreme court in the UK is only there to interpret existing laws as written not to interpret differences between "tiers" of law
2) The UK has a system that can pass new laws, generally by simple majority so any decision rendered about existing law can be made obsolete generally fairly quickly (In contrast to the current intransigence of the current US system where it is hard to pass primary legislation and virtually impossible to modify the constitution)
3) the court was only established in 2009, and evidently we haven't done much to empower it
A better comparison country might be places like Canada or Australia who do have a written (and harder to modify) constitution.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/democracy...
They tried to steal an election four years ago by sabotaging the vote certification.
Remember: federal power is delegated from the states, not the other way around.
At the top of the Articles, it's pretty clear that the delegates of the states have come together to establish a league of states. At the top of the Constitution, it's explicitly stated that "We the People […] do ordain and establish."
Neither can states, either practically or legally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White
As an example, the whole COVID shutdown of the USA was a completely unprecedented and probably illegal action. The civil rights fanatics and liberals were like "meh." So it's already happened, really.
Why are people who prioritized public health during a temporary pandemic "sheep", but the President's supporters who demonstrate exceptionally cult-like behavior, "free thinking individuals"?
You can't have it both ways.
And yes, anything close to a majority nominated by the sitting president is a constitutional crisis, in a regime where one is supposed to check the other.
Yes, congress also abdicated its power. At the moment you have an executive branch ignoring law, precedent, and court orders, the legislative branch that is subservient to the executive and a judiciary in a state of civil war. None of that is right. None of the top-level institutions are working as they should.
And in this case they're refusing to do their actual job, which is defending the constitutional foundation of our country.
This is what things going to shit looks like. You may be completely justified in acting the way you are, it just so happens that that's of very little help. Spiraling is pretty tough to prevent at that point.
And yes, very obviously people have an easier time understanding things when they're better aligned with their thinking.
yes because the admin can appeal to a higher court; it at least pauses it so it can be more thoroughly evaluated as to its constitutionality
Banning a nationwide injunction against birthright citizenship is inherently different. It’s a fundamental constitutional right we are talking about. Banning birthright citizenship should not be allowed to be enforced until SCOTIS decides the matter.
So, deporting people to a third-country (another decision SCOTUS allowed this term) has a simple balancing test: stay here and be fine or possibly deport a Chinese citizen to El Salvador, which could cause incredible harm. So even ignoring th elikelihood of how the issue is decided, the balancing test favors enjoining third-party deportation.
So in this case, we had a universal injunction against an executive order removing birthright citizenship. This fails on two fronts:
1. As justices noted, it's highly unlikely that the order will be held up as constitutional. There is case law on this. The language of the 14th amendment is clear. The exact issue was discussed at the time. This has no hope in a non-corrupt court of succeeding.
2. Given other decisions, bona fide US citizens could be deported to CECOT and detained indefinitely with no due process. So it should be stayed because of the potential harm.
What SCOTUS did today was say the order revoking birthright citizenship was unlikely to succeed but it allows the administration to proceed anyway while hte issue is litigated in the courts, which could take years.
That's how corrupt this court is.
People have been fed this propaganda that Supreme Court justices are apolitical legal scholars who come down from their tower to issue judgements and keep things in check. It couldn't be further from the truth. Supreme Court justices are political appointees that dress up their political positions in legalese.
Example 1: this court invented the "major questions doctrine" whereby the court decides a matter is large enough that the court gets to override both the administrative and legislative branches.
Example 2: they also invented the "historical traditions doctrine", which is used selectively. For example, abortion was completely legal 200+ years ago. Ben Franklin even published at-home instructions on how to perform an abortion [1].
Example 3: in the wake of the Civil War there was huge violence not from the freed slaves but from white people towards former slaves, most notably with the Colfax massacre. The Supreme Court went on a white supremacist tear during Reconstruction, notably gutting the federal government's ability to prosecute hate crimes like Colfax [2].
Example 4: The Tiney court in the 1850s made what is perhaps one of the worst decisions ever made (ie Dred Scott), arguing from a legal and constitutional perspective that black people weren't "people".
Example 5: the Roberts court decided that moeny equals speech, gutting any legislation around campaign spending, which is a big part of how we got here.
Example 6: the presidential immunity decision will go down in history as one of the 10 or even 5 worst decisions ever made. It completely invented far-reaching immunity that essentially made the president a king, in a country that was founded on the very idea of rejecting monarchs.
Example 7: in 1984, the Supreme Court decided that in any areas of ambiguity in legislation, trial courts should defer to the agency empowered by Congress to enforce that legislation. This is the so-called "Chevron deference".
More than 40 years passed through 7 presidents (4 Republican and 3 Democrat) where both parties at different times controlled Congress. Congress declined to legislate away Chevron deference despite having ample opportunity to do so. Moreso, they intentionally wrote legislation with Chevron deference in mind yet this court decided to reverse Chevron. Yet on other cases, the court has deferred to Congress's inaction as intent.
Fun fact: Chevron v Natural Resources Defense Council was previously known as Natural Resources Defense Council v. Gorsuch [3]. That's not a coincidence. The suit involved Reagan's head of dthe EPA, Anna Gorsuch, mother of current Supreme Court justice Neil Gorsuch, who was humiliated and ultimately fired from the EPA while trying to destroy it from within.
[1]: https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099542962/abortion-ben-frank...
[2]: https://www.theroot.com/what-was-the-colfax-massacre-1790897...
[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Resources_Defense_Coun...
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With the US Supreme Court strongly tilted toward all four, its an extremely difficult hole to climb out of.
I don't see a dictatorship (anytime soon). Not out of any abundance of optimism, but simply that all four of those constituencies and the Supreme Court's dominant wing itself, are highly aligned with each other, and would all lose out if it goes that far.
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Nationwide injunctions were saught and used by (self-proclaimed) conservatives to slow down and stop Biden immigration policies.
One thing they didn't talk about was structural: the court system is split up into X circuits, and each circuit is independent. Normally each circuit uses rulings from other circuits as a basis for its judgements, but circuits are pretty independent from each other. The Supremes weigh in when the circuits conflicted with each other.
The national injunctions issued by the lower court allowed the lowest level court to have more authority than an appeals court. An appellate court's decision was only binding on its circuit. Why would a lower court have more authority than an appeals court? That makes no sense.
That's outside of all the reasoning the court used to stop this practice.
That said, if an affected individual brought a suit the may be able to get an injunction, since the court ruled that universal injunctions were inappropriate.
An appellate court considers the decisions of the courts below it, so it makes sense its actions would be restricted to those courts. What makes no sense is the newly possible situation in which an action violates the U.S. Constitution in one district but not another.
aren't those cases the point of the Supreme Court? when districts conflict it goes to the Supreme Court.
That's not new. It's called a circuit split, and generally results in the cases being combined when SCOTUS hears them to sort out the difference.
Through what legal avenue?
So yeah. Do a "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants," already. The gun people were more than willing when they thought a Democrat was stealing their votes or Bill Gates was putting microchips in vaccines.
They don't, they appeal straight up to the 9 judges that they actually have to appease
- Marbury vs Madison, 1803
Do you feel that temporary checks (that can be easily reversed) to ensure the government is behaving in a constitutional way are ridiculous?
It causes the least harm to block the birthright executive order until it’s legality can be determined. Therefore it should be blocked nationwide.
I'd love to see higher requirements for issuing them, and an expedited appeals process to review them. I'd like to see protections against judge shopping (as endorsed by both Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer: https://www.texastribune.org/2024/04/11/judge-shopping-texas...) We know SCOTUS can move very fast when they feel like it.
You are incorrect.