I don't think the current shareholders care about sales/sales growth right now. They're discounting cash flow from robotaxi/optimus dreams.
Whether that makes sense is pretty subjective. Personally I think they're overly optimistic and that's why I'm not a Tesla shareholder.
neepi · 19h ago
Correct. They don't. They're throwing cash in because they're running on faith and marketing. There's a lot of TSLA promotional noise from influencers (Lutnick included) to buy buy buy. This is of course because the institutional investors are getting out and want you to buy so they don't make the loss when it collapses.
The whole market is totally insane at the market, inflated on promises not delivery. There's only one way it's going.
msgodel · 19h ago
This kind of thing goes in the same bucket (at least in my mind) as the traders who think UHC and PLTR are part of some great deep state conspiracy.
Those things do happen from time to time but especially when they become popular they create an opportunity for counter elites to disrupt you. Competent leaders seem to (I'd argue appropriately) consider these a liability more than an asset. I think the market is going to be neutral on them for that reason.
I also think conspiracies are much more rare than people like to think. A lot of them turn out to just be similar people thinking the same thing.
throitallaway · 20h ago
Still waiting on that coast-to-coast FSD that was supposed to happen in 2017. Elon is a fantastic showman.
darth_avocado · 19h ago
I’m just waiting for the promised FSD to be delivered before whatever else he’s promised
ajross · 19h ago
Drove 200 miles on FSD just yesterday. It's been months, maybe more than a year since I've had to intervene with the system for any reason beyond convenience ("I the human am smarter about lane selection so I'll drive" -- even then it's only about 50/50 that I'm actually right).
Obviously in the current environment it's not worth having the fight. Musk's brand implosion will be studied for decades as probably the biggest preventable destruction of shareholder value in history.
Nonetheless the cars remain great cars, even if it's no longer appropriate to say so. FWIW: used values have dropped too. If you don't want to line DOGE pockets or whatever, you can get a great deal on one from Carvana et. al.
davidcbc · 19h ago
I don't want more anecdotes from beta testers or massaged numbers from Tesla. I want truly independent verification. For every anecdote about how great it is there's another video showing a Tesla swerve into a tree or turn onto train tracks for no reason
modeless · 15h ago
The video of swerving into a tree was caused by the driver turning the wheel and disengaging FSD. It's clear and unambiguous in the crash report data. You should check the news sources you're relying on.
What ultimately matters is the statistics, and while the statistics Tesla has released are not very convincing, we can at least be sure that supervised FSD is not dramatically more dangerous than human drivers. That would definitely have been obvious in the statistics by now.
ajross · 17h ago
It's very clear that what you don't want is a Tesla, period. And I accept that. The externalities of the current environment are such that this is no longer a winnable fight about cars.
But nonetheless they are and remain really great, frankly transformational vehicles and they remain easily accessible if you want to investigate for yourself.
CobrastanJorji · 20h ago
I think there was also a very sensible "they also run the U.S. government" value, although that seems less true in recent weeks.
taurath · 19h ago
He got all the contracts and contacts he needs from his time kissing trumps ass while terrorizing charity workers. He was in the Middle East and all over getting signed commitments for starlink.
The military will pay him because there are no alternatives. So will many countries.
$TSLA isn’t a car company anymore, it’s $ELON and he’s trying to be a trillionaire and be more powerful than heads of state. Gilded age indeed.
Fun fact, John D. Rockefeller at his peak of wealth was equivilent to 3% of the GDP of the United States. That 3% figure right now would be $870B.
nickthegreek · 13h ago
Musk just tweeted that people need to call their representatives and kill the bill. We see how DOGE treats contracts it doesn’t like. It would be some delicious irony if those new contracts find the way to the shredder.
solid_fuel · 20h ago
Musk already has a LONG history of undelivered promises. Full-self-driving has been "coming next year" for a decade.
Now, he seems to be spending his days on ketamine fueled posting binges and fist fights in the white house instead of running Tesla and SpaceX.
If I was a tesla investor I would want out immediately.
disillusioned · 19h ago
The Robotaxi "trial" in Austin has a chance to be supremely embarrassing and potentially ruinous, depending on just how weird it gets. Waymos get stuck doing weird stuff sometimes, which makes the news, but broadly speaking, they've completed 10 million paid, driverless rides, and their accident/injury rate is provably lower than human drivers, and there have been, to my recollection, essentially no catastrophic Waymo-faulted pedestrian interactions (ala the original Uber issues).
Owing to the difference in sensor suite, I'm curious if Tesla FSD will be able to truly keep that same margin of safety, but I'm not super confident, and having to pause or rollback the trial would be a big hit in the underlying "value" of TSLA, I reckon.
lynx97 · 19h ago
In other words, cars will be full-self-driving when Linux hits the desktop.
AndrewDucker · 17h ago
Waymo have had self-driving taxis for years now.
lynx97 · 7h ago
Well, friends of mine use Linux as a desktop since more then 10 years now. So my point is pretty much confirmed.
I'll believe the self-driving taxi hype when I am every able to drive own to my place of brith. I am pretty confident that is not going to happen before I die.
rtkwe · 12h ago
Yes but they have LIDAR which Musk has steadfastly refused to have in Teslas (probably becasue if it does turn out to be required he's in deep shit for all the cars he's sold so far without it they could be forced to upgrade).
more_corn · 19h ago
Robotaxi will flop. The only saving grace would be a merger with Xai which would be batshit but it’s just the sort of batshit that he specializes in.
throitallaway · 19h ago
Xai has acquired X, so why not also acquire Tesla? That would give him what he wants (full control of Tesla.) The shell game continues.
CommenterPerson · 20h ago
The parking lot of a nearby struggling mall is full of new unsold Teslas. It's a beautiful sight, and hope the parking fee continues to help the mall.
throitallaway · 20h ago
Is this mall active or abandoned?
reaperducer · 16h ago
He wrote "struggling," so it sounds like it's in between.
hadlock · 19h ago
When it was time to replace the old family car in April 2025, we very explicitly went and bought an ICE hybrid Toyota at an enormous premium, despite multiple test drives and planning for years on buying a Tesla electric BEV, due to recent events.
tzs · 13h ago
ICE hybrids are interesting. If you take a lot of road trips energy costs can actually be lower with a good ICE hybrid than with an EV.
For example if the DC chargers on a road trip are $0.25/kWh and an EV averages 4 mi/kWh then a Toyota Prius will do that road trip for less if gas averages under $3.50/gal. Gas is under that in most states.
If you have to pay $0.40/kWh than a Prius will beat an EV if gas is under $5.60, which I believe is currently the case even in California.
If you don't do road trips and can charge at home (which in most places should be a lot less than commercial DC charging) then EVs win in most states, although there are a few where due to high home electricity costs and low gas costs hybrids win even against home charging.
hadlock · 13h ago
We're definitely not taking any extended road trips in something as small as a Prius if we can help it
ofjcihen · 20h ago
I’m just not surprised given the flood of videos showing ridiculous manufacturing issues and Musks desire/need to reinvent the wheel unnecessarily.
I had considered getting a Tesla for years but there’s no way I can make that purchase make sense now.
duxup · 20h ago
I think Tesla managed to really tap into that "something new" in the world of cars where things are very homogenized. Fans were happy to be the beta testers, for a long time.
Having said that, I'm with you, for me my car takes me from place to place, that's all I want.
throwanem · 20h ago
Tesla's done the same brilliant job GM did in the 80s of demonstrating why ostentatious novelty in the auto industry tends rare, and I think for most of the same reasons.
halfnormalform · 19h ago
It has come full circle. Now I see a Tesla supercharger full of 95% identical vehicles and think they are too homogeneous.
some-guy · 19h ago
Working at an office park in the Bay Area, literally, and I mean literally, 50% of the cars are Teslas in the parking lot (mostly model 3 and Y).
abeppu · 19h ago
... but now, the "something new" isn't that new anymore. The model 3 looks similar today to how it looked in 2018 right? And in some places, they're everywhere.
I can see how the more recently released EV models from other manufacturers feel newer, haven't had the same quality control PR disasters as Tesla, and don't have a CEO who is a giant political liability.
duxup · 19h ago
Yeah I agree, they came out with the truck and ... everything else is just same old same old.
jajko · 19h ago
Well, I mean would you be willingly sponsoring high profile nazi sympathizer who yearns for totalitarian dictatorship and mocks people speaking about freedom and democracy, all over the world?
Absolutely nothing changed (and people generally don't change, not for the better at least), he is still same pos he was globally considered few months ago. Still same person who was making up pedophile claims of a french diver who actually rescued kids trapped in cave, not some boasting of submarine who would be too little too late, if ever. I know people love to quickly forget bad parts of people they admire or worship, but I don't see a reason why.
Competition offers a lot, people don't have to be ashamed to drive it or be afraid to let it be parked anywhere.
DesiLurker · 20h ago
seriously just put door handles like a normal car, both inside and out, wtf is wrong with this guy. also drop the freaking wind doors for X, they are tacky, annoying and full of issues.
SAI_Peregrinus · 19h ago
Or for door handles, if you really don't want drag, use an over-center mechanism like in a retracting pen: press in to get it to pop out, purely mechanical. Include an actuator to allow automatic extension of the handles via software, but let the user mechanically actuate it as a fallback. These sorts of mechanisms aren't new, or difficult.
leesec · 20h ago
Please link to recent "ridiculous manufacturing issues" on their best selling cars ( model y and 3 )
Nobody mentions that the cars themselves have gotten less appealing.
No dashboard, no stalks, everything on the central touchscreen. It is not minimalist elegance, it is cheap cost-cutting. Even the s/x are cheapified.
modeless · 16h ago
This take makes zero sense. Central touchscreen, minimalist design, and and no dashboard display has been the design since the Model 3 first came out. None of that changed. It didn't stop the Model Y from becoming the best selling vehicle of any kind worldwide. The stalk thing is new but the new Model Y has the turn signal stalk added back (actually it was never removed from the Y), so they are backing down on that.
jq-r · 16h ago
I test drove 3 and Y recently and was very impressed. They are very comfortable to ride, be in, silent, roomy and simple to operate which I cannot say the same for German cars in the same range. Those seem to be stuck in "we've built these cars for decades, let's just put an electric motor, add eye candy, high price and call it electric cars". Teslas are considerably cheaper to buy than german cars with the same amount of kit in my country. You always have a feeling they are nickel and diming you for every single thing.
mrtksn · 15h ago
I don't think the German cars are the concern in this case. The Chinese and the Koreans are.
jq-r · 15h ago
They've taxed Chinese cars to hell in EU (unfortunately), so I'm sure people are reluctant to buy a car (as a big expense) of a Chinese company with no well known track record compared to established players.
m463 · 13h ago
makes perfect sense to me.
previous generation Model S with a dashboard and stalks is much nicer to control than the new s/x/3/y/truck.
You can flash your headlights, you can control details of autopilot, you can shift quickly into forward/reverse when doing a tricky parking maneuver, you can separate controls on center screen from info on the dashboard. direct wiper controls. There is a place to rest your finger while hunting for a control on the central screen. navigation highlights upcoming turns ahead of you on the screen.
then 3 takes away dashboard. The smaller central display has extremely cluttered information along the left edge. The controls require attention, and hard right from the direction you should be looking to drive.
And each generation this seems to go a little further. Removing the stalks is too far imho.
the cybertruck main screen where you adjust everything is just a wall of on-screen touch areas.
I personally think all of this is the classic presales vs postsales dilemma.
Something that looks clean and modern in the store only ends up showing its shortcomings when in daily use.
Just my opinion. Personally I think tesla should add a $2k option for stalks, a dashboard and a couple dedicated buttons. I'll bet it would help with sales.
modeless · 11h ago
The 3 and Y were not just Tesla's most successful products, the Y was literally the most successful product in the entire vehicle industry. They never had a dashboard display and they always had a touchscreen as the primary interface. Bonkers to suggest that as a reason for a decline this year. The stalks, sure, but Y never had the blinker stalk removed so it's still not a reason.
jqpabc123 · 17h ago
I'm starting to entertain conspiracy theories with regard to TSLA stock.
Simply because there is no other way to really explain it.
No rational basis for a P/E of 180. No reason for the stock price to increase while sales and earnings decline. No reason for industry analysts to maintain a buy rating on a stock that is clearly WAY over bought.
Unless they have some undisclosed incentive for putting their reputation on the line to do so.
There's very obvious ways to explain it, you should at least consider what would happen if they do what they say what they are going to do
jqpabc123 · 15h ago
If if they do what they say they are going to --- even if they steal all of Uber and Waymo's business --- the current price of TSLA stock still can't be justified.
Uber is just minimally profitable --- without investing large sums in autos or assuming liability for their operation. No way Telsa can do so, undercut them on price and be crazy profitable all at the same time.
BonoboIO · 7h ago
Enron 2.0
Analemma_ · 20h ago
I think Tesla's situation is actually even worse than the quarterly numbers suggest. I'm reasonably happy with my Model 3, but I will never give Tesla another cent. The three other Tesla owners I know all feel the same way, and I know two more people who were considering buying Teslas but completely abandoned those plans this year (both got Hyundai Ioniqs instead and report they are pleased with them).
It will take a while for stories like this to filter to the top-line numbers because car replacement cycles are so long, but just on anecdotes I really don't see Tesla returning to growth anytime soon. The brand is absolutely toxic now.
baggachipz · 19h ago
I had to go a step further and sell my Tesla outright. I couldn't be associated with the brand anymore, it made me ill. I figured the best thing I could do is contribute to the glut of Teslas on the market, thus driving down demand and prices ever so slightly.
addaon · 19h ago
> but I will never give Tesla another cent
Is there a mature independent repair shop market yet? What is third-party part availability like? I've talked with a bunch of folk who have considered getting a used Tesla given how dirt cheap they are, but no one was confident they could operate a Tesla without giving the company money.
Analemma_ · 19h ago
Sorry, I didn’t phrase that accurately: I intend to drive this car until it dies, and will give Tesla repair money where absolutely necessary. But I certainly won’t be a repeat buyer.
atum47 · 19h ago
I'm still holding though. I bought shares at a low price and I'm expecting to double my money on it. Fingers crossed!
Mr_Eri_Atlov · 18h ago
I can't imagine how begging for Trump to turn the white house lawn into a used car lot for your dipshit dumpster mobile did not in fact turn your continued sales deficit around.
more_corn · 19h ago
I’d say I did Nazi that coming but it’d be a lie.
daft_pink · 20h ago
It’s really sad that people are giving up high quality reasonably priced electric vehicles over politics. I’ve driven a Prius for years, because it’s obviously to me that sending money to shady petro states all over the world is just a bad idea and the volatility of oil prices isn’t worth it and the overall maintenance and reliability of my hybrid vehicle is incredible.
I probably will replace it with a Tesla, but I’m hoping they release a 3 row with a reasonable 3rd row seat that would be great for my family and there’s no rush because I don’t really drive too much.
That being said, I think Tesla’s are obviously incredible engineering feats that everyone should want. Politics aside.
rising-sky · 20h ago
> really sad that people are giving up high quality reasonably priced electric vehicles over politics
> obviously to me that sending money to shady petro states all over the world is just a bad idea
Do you not see the contradiction, in the same sentence?
keybored · 20h ago
Our regime: let’s not politicize with our wallets here
Their regime: not sending them money is just the sensible thing to do
Well they did mention several other non-political reasons.
toyg · 19h ago
Yeah but MY politics are right, and THEIR politics are wrong... /s
Yet Tesla market cap is four times that of Toyota's.
Unbelievable.
I had to stay out of TSLA after the first year or so because the valuation made no sense to me. Other than a FOMO / YOLO play like BTC.
I'm shocked that the valuation continues to remain so high after so many lies and mediocre results. Was the Cybertruck a success? There definitely are not a million Tesla robotaxis on the road as Elon suggested there would be by 2020.
neepi · 20h ago
P/E ratio says meme stock all over it. Private equity are pulling out. They are selling off to ETFs (who don't care) and bag holders.
jdross · 20h ago
I'm not saying this doesn't hold, but this includes every first-run first-model car from Tesla (5-10 years old cohort), and decade+ old refined models from every other brand.
Admittedly just a hunch, but I suspect the data for the more recent cohorts and Tesla models is much better than this data shows
davidcbc · 20h ago
Given the quality issues of their most recently released vehicle, a truck that makes the Ford Pinto look respectable, I'm skeptical
mjamesaustin · 20h ago
The politics is a symptom of a greater problem with Musk's companies, which is that they ultimately only care about his bottom line.
As a current owner, I wouldn't buy again because of the abysmal customer service and repair experience. This car is a huge computer, and has plenty of glitches appearing now that it's out of warranty.
The main benefit of a Tesla vs other electric cars was the supercharging network, but with the adoption of NACS across most manufacturers, that advantage is gone.
There are plenty of high quality reasonably priced electric vehicles people can buy – they're just not Teslas.
Kon-Peki · 20h ago
Toyota had announced a 3-row EV to begin production this year, in Kentucky. Who knows if it will be delayed or cancelled. If you go read the CEO section of the earnings call transcripts from last year, you’ll get an idea of what near(ish) future EVs from Ford are going to look like - to be built in Tennessee and Michigan.
Which is all to say that what you want is much more likely to come from Toyota or Ford or Hyundai or Kia than it is from Tesla.
notwhereyouare · 20h ago
there have been video after video about how they aren't high quality. both on the software front and the build quality
therobot24 · 20h ago
would rarely put "high quality" and "tesla" next to each other
Unfettered by high quality, Tesla shipped the first Cybertruck…
So easy. ;-)
SoftTalker · 20h ago
Four years ago (or whenever it was that Musk was still thouoght a hero around these parts) you would have been downvoted into oblivion on this site for critiquing Tesla quality, so let's just all admit it's about politics.
hightrix · 19h ago
Ok. It is about politics.
I and many others will not support the megolmaniac that took a chainsaw to our federal government. Musk not only hired a bunch of palantir, ballet machine hackers, but he also ensured the many lawsuits against him were dropped, the investigations into his companies that should have cost him billions were dropped, and that his companies get $100s of millions of no competition government contracts.
Correct. I will not support Musk ever again, regardless of his current PR bombardment. Musk has shown who he is and now he will reap the rewards of that reputation.
davidcbc · 19h ago
100% true, although even if Musk wasn't toxic I wouldn't get a Tesla because of the poor build quality, touchscreen controls, and the overpromise/underdeliver history.
leesec · 18h ago
Insane this fake conspiracy stuff is all over hnews now. It's becoming reddit
nickthegreek · 13h ago
use grok, i bet even it will tell you what each of those statements were about.
hightrix · 15h ago
What part of what I said is a conspiracy or not true?
All of this is backed by evidence. Easily searchable on your favorite search engine.
ofjcihen · 20h ago
That also marks the time that videos started coming out regarding the poor quality of Teslas.
The extravagantly botched release of the long delayed Cyber Truck as well.
So given that information I feel like a decision to purchase a Tesla is actually more due to politics than a decision to not purchase one.
throitallaway · 19h ago
The infamous tent-built Model 3s were in 2017. Quality concerns have been known since at least then.
otikik · 16h ago
Yeah and we liked Twitter quite a lot too.
I wonder if there's a connection there.
9283409232 · 20h ago
Tesla has always had very bad quality control and you can find stories about this for at least 8 years now. Here is one from 2020[0] and one from 2018[1]. Quality control has always been Tesla's weak point. It takes no effort to find these instead of being easily proven wrong.
I think the tension here is that (1) Teslas have more and better technology that other cars, and (2) they have more mechanical problems than other brands.
So they're both better and worse technology, depending on what you focus on.
MangoToupe · 20h ago
I would love a BYD. I absolutely agree that politics is interfering with the electric car market.
a4isms · 20h ago
> everyone should want
Leaving everything else you've written aside... Really‽ You believe that it's possible to make a single kind of car with minimal variation in styles and capabilities that will appeal to the entire world, at every price point, every demographic?
I suggest you are over-extrapolating your own confirmation bias. I drive a Volvo, it is not possible for Tesla to sell me a vehicle with a single flat screen to replace my buttons, screen, digital gauge cluster, and heads-up display. It is not possible to sell me a Model Y or Model X to replace my wagon. I am obviously not Tesla's market for Tesla's current product lineup, period.
My neighbour has a cottage and owns a truck they use for all sorts of hauling things around. I have spoken with them, it is not possible to sell them a CyberTruck, they are interested in the F150 Lightning, a vehicle designed for truck owners who want to electrify. My neighbour is not Tesla's market either.
Tesla is not into broad market segmentation. Tesla is into having a well-defined market and offering a handful of models to that market. You're in that market and you're happy with your Tesla. Ok. But come on, do you understand that the rest of the 7 billion people on this planet make up a wide variety of humans with a wide variety of wants and needs where a vehicle is concerned?
And that literally ZERO manufacturers can make a handful of cars that everyone will want?
tzs · 14h ago
> It’s really sad that people are giving up high quality reasonably priced electric vehicles over politics
It's not 5 years ago. There are now quite a few makers of quality reasonably priced EVs. If someone decides to avoid one particular maker over politics there are plenty of other choices.
duxup · 20h ago
People looking just for "high quality reasonably priced" likely go with your Prius or something more in that price range.
somerandomqaguy · 19h ago
It's not just that; competition has arrived as well. Mach E, F150 Lightning, Blazer, Equinox, Ariya, Silverado EV, Ioniq 5 and 6, EV6 and EV9. Toyota has announce new BEV models as well.
And that's just North America. BYD and NIO have extremely compelling options outside of this side of the planet.
cogman10 · 19h ago
BYD makes some of the best EVs on the planet and CATL some of the best batteries. The only reason they aren't dominating in the US is because of trade agreements keeping them out.
My current car is a 2018 tesla, I'll drive it until the wheels fall off. My next EV won't be. Primarily because I can't support a Nazi.
tchalla · 20h ago
Yes, people see keeping aside politics aside and buying better vehicles like BYD. It’s really sad to not recognise it and instead blame it on “politics”.
tene80i · 19h ago
It’s not just politics. It’s also that Musk is a colossal prick and plenty of people don’t want anything to do with him or his brand(s).
os2warpman · 19h ago
>because it’s obviously to me that sending money to shady petro states all over the world is just a bad idea
The US has been a net exporter of oil for several years now and what it does import is mainly (>70%) production from Canada and Mexico. As far as crude oil goes, in 2024 the US imported 6.48 million barrels per day and exported 4.06 million. Of those 2.42 million barrels of crude oil, approximately 1.7 million came from oilfields in Canada and Mexico.
While we as a society should transition away from fossil fuels as quickly as practical, there is actually a very small chance a gallon of gasoline pumped into a vehicle originated in a shady petrostate.
>Tesla’s are obviously incredible engineering feats that everyone should want
Teslas were impressive, technologically, to normal consumers ten years ago.
Having driven every single model of Tesla ever made they are not for me except for the Roadster; their dynamics more closely resemble a heavily laden minivan with fantastic acceleration than a fun-to-drive car and their styling is design-by-committee bland.
triceratops · 20h ago
Hyundai EVs are pretty decent.
neepi · 20h ago
As a former Model S P100D owner, buy another Prius.
drcongo · 17h ago
In Europe and Asia "American built car" is synonymous with "appalling build quality", and yet somehow Tesla managed to lower that bar.
etchalon · 19h ago
They were a feat of engineering, ten years ago. Maybe even five years ago.
But for what they actually offer (excluding the "betas" and "Muskian Promises"), most manufacturers make a car that's comparable / better depending on your needs.
And if things are comparable, than you can bring in other things to make a decision. And the politics of the company's outspoken CEO is certainly something you could consider.
pcardoso · 20h ago
There are now plenty of other high-quality BEV to choose from.
And Tesla had an edge but it has been eroding with some idiotic decisions (like the no stalks model 3) and Elon's recent behavior completely destroyed the brand to those mostly likely to buy one.
throitallaway · 19h ago
These cars are cost-optimized to the bare-bones. The bull-headed decision to use cameras for everything, including for sensing rain, isn't giving them any favors. All other manufacturers in the space use a combination of radar/lidar and cameras for self-driving capabilities, and as a result are much safer.
mjmsmith · 19h ago
Conversely, I think it's really sad that people are financing the incredibly destructive extra-curricular activities of a ketamine-fueled billionaire over a car.
But I think a functioning democracy is something that everyone should want, incredible engineering feats aside.
Whether that makes sense is pretty subjective. Personally I think they're overly optimistic and that's why I'm not a Tesla shareholder.
The whole market is totally insane at the market, inflated on promises not delivery. There's only one way it's going.
Those things do happen from time to time but especially when they become popular they create an opportunity for counter elites to disrupt you. Competent leaders seem to (I'd argue appropriately) consider these a liability more than an asset. I think the market is going to be neutral on them for that reason.
I also think conspiracies are much more rare than people like to think. A lot of them turn out to just be similar people thinking the same thing.
Obviously in the current environment it's not worth having the fight. Musk's brand implosion will be studied for decades as probably the biggest preventable destruction of shareholder value in history.
Nonetheless the cars remain great cars, even if it's no longer appropriate to say so. FWIW: used values have dropped too. If you don't want to line DOGE pockets or whatever, you can get a great deal on one from Carvana et. al.
What ultimately matters is the statistics, and while the statistics Tesla has released are not very convincing, we can at least be sure that supervised FSD is not dramatically more dangerous than human drivers. That would definitely have been obvious in the statistics by now.
But nonetheless they are and remain really great, frankly transformational vehicles and they remain easily accessible if you want to investigate for yourself.
The military will pay him because there are no alternatives. So will many countries.
$TSLA isn’t a car company anymore, it’s $ELON and he’s trying to be a trillionaire and be more powerful than heads of state. Gilded age indeed.
Fun fact, John D. Rockefeller at his peak of wealth was equivilent to 3% of the GDP of the United States. That 3% figure right now would be $870B.
Now, he seems to be spending his days on ketamine fueled posting binges and fist fights in the white house instead of running Tesla and SpaceX.
If I was a tesla investor I would want out immediately.
Owing to the difference in sensor suite, I'm curious if Tesla FSD will be able to truly keep that same margin of safety, but I'm not super confident, and having to pause or rollback the trial would be a big hit in the underlying "value" of TSLA, I reckon.
I'll believe the self-driving taxi hype when I am every able to drive own to my place of brith. I am pretty confident that is not going to happen before I die.
For example if the DC chargers on a road trip are $0.25/kWh and an EV averages 4 mi/kWh then a Toyota Prius will do that road trip for less if gas averages under $3.50/gal. Gas is under that in most states.
If you have to pay $0.40/kWh than a Prius will beat an EV if gas is under $5.60, which I believe is currently the case even in California.
If you don't do road trips and can charge at home (which in most places should be a lot less than commercial DC charging) then EVs win in most states, although there are a few where due to high home electricity costs and low gas costs hybrids win even against home charging.
I had considered getting a Tesla for years but there’s no way I can make that purchase make sense now.
Having said that, I'm with you, for me my car takes me from place to place, that's all I want.
Absolutely nothing changed (and people generally don't change, not for the better at least), he is still same pos he was globally considered few months ago. Still same person who was making up pedophile claims of a french diver who actually rescued kids trapped in cave, not some boasting of submarine who would be too little too late, if ever. I know people love to quickly forget bad parts of people they admire or worship, but I don't see a reason why.
Competition offers a lot, people don't have to be ashamed to drive it or be afraid to let it be parked anywhere.
https://capitalmotorcars.com/tesla-model-y-reliability/
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No dashboard, no stalks, everything on the central touchscreen. It is not minimalist elegance, it is cheap cost-cutting. Even the s/x are cheapified.
previous generation Model S with a dashboard and stalks is much nicer to control than the new s/x/3/y/truck.
You can flash your headlights, you can control details of autopilot, you can shift quickly into forward/reverse when doing a tricky parking maneuver, you can separate controls on center screen from info on the dashboard. direct wiper controls. There is a place to rest your finger while hunting for a control on the central screen. navigation highlights upcoming turns ahead of you on the screen.
then 3 takes away dashboard. The smaller central display has extremely cluttered information along the left edge. The controls require attention, and hard right from the direction you should be looking to drive.
And each generation this seems to go a little further. Removing the stalks is too far imho.
the cybertruck main screen where you adjust everything is just a wall of on-screen touch areas.
I personally think all of this is the classic presales vs postsales dilemma.
Something that looks clean and modern in the store only ends up showing its shortcomings when in daily use.
Just my opinion. Personally I think tesla should add a $2k option for stalks, a dashboard and a couple dedicated buttons. I'll bet it would help with sales.
Simply because there is no other way to really explain it.
No rational basis for a P/E of 180. No reason for the stock price to increase while sales and earnings decline. No reason for industry analysts to maintain a buy rating on a stock that is clearly WAY over bought.
Unless they have some undisclosed incentive for putting their reputation on the line to do so.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/buying-teslas-stock-ahead-...
Uber is just minimally profitable --- without investing large sums in autos or assuming liability for their operation. No way Telsa can do so, undercut them on price and be crazy profitable all at the same time.
It will take a while for stories like this to filter to the top-line numbers because car replacement cycles are so long, but just on anecdotes I really don't see Tesla returning to growth anytime soon. The brand is absolutely toxic now.
Is there a mature independent repair shop market yet? What is third-party part availability like? I've talked with a bunch of folk who have considered getting a used Tesla given how dirt cheap they are, but no one was confident they could operate a Tesla without giving the company money.
I probably will replace it with a Tesla, but I’m hoping they release a 3 row with a reasonable 3rd row seat that would be great for my family and there’s no rush because I don’t really drive too much.
That being said, I think Tesla’s are obviously incredible engineering feats that everyone should want. Politics aside.
> obviously to me that sending money to shady petro states all over the world is just a bad idea
Do you not see the contradiction, in the same sentence?
Their regime: not sending them money is just the sensible thing to do
Well they did mention several other non-political reasons.
Unbelievable.
I had to stay out of TSLA after the first year or so because the valuation made no sense to me. Other than a FOMO / YOLO play like BTC.
I'm shocked that the valuation continues to remain so high after so many lies and mediocre results. Was the Cybertruck a success? There definitely are not a million Tesla robotaxis on the road as Elon suggested there would be by 2020.
Admittedly just a hunch, but I suspect the data for the more recent cohorts and Tesla models is much better than this data shows
As a current owner, I wouldn't buy again because of the abysmal customer service and repair experience. This car is a huge computer, and has plenty of glitches appearing now that it's out of warranty.
The main benefit of a Tesla vs other electric cars was the supercharging network, but with the adoption of NACS across most manufacturers, that advantage is gone.
There are plenty of high quality reasonably priced electric vehicles people can buy – they're just not Teslas.
Which is all to say that what you want is much more likely to come from Toyota or Ford or Hyundai or Kia than it is from Tesla.
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2024-us-init...
So easy. ;-)
I and many others will not support the megolmaniac that took a chainsaw to our federal government. Musk not only hired a bunch of palantir, ballet machine hackers, but he also ensured the many lawsuits against him were dropped, the investigations into his companies that should have cost him billions were dropped, and that his companies get $100s of millions of no competition government contracts.
Correct. I will not support Musk ever again, regardless of his current PR bombardment. Musk has shown who he is and now he will reap the rewards of that reputation.
All of this is backed by evidence. Easily searchable on your favorite search engine.
The extravagantly botched release of the long delayed Cyber Truck as well.
So given that information I feel like a decision to purchase a Tesla is actually more due to politics than a decision to not purchase one.
I wonder if there's a connection there.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24708233
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16547802
So they're both better and worse technology, depending on what you focus on.
Leaving everything else you've written aside... Really‽ You believe that it's possible to make a single kind of car with minimal variation in styles and capabilities that will appeal to the entire world, at every price point, every demographic?
I suggest you are over-extrapolating your own confirmation bias. I drive a Volvo, it is not possible for Tesla to sell me a vehicle with a single flat screen to replace my buttons, screen, digital gauge cluster, and heads-up display. It is not possible to sell me a Model Y or Model X to replace my wagon. I am obviously not Tesla's market for Tesla's current product lineup, period.
My neighbour has a cottage and owns a truck they use for all sorts of hauling things around. I have spoken with them, it is not possible to sell them a CyberTruck, they are interested in the F150 Lightning, a vehicle designed for truck owners who want to electrify. My neighbour is not Tesla's market either.
Tesla is not into broad market segmentation. Tesla is into having a well-defined market and offering a handful of models to that market. You're in that market and you're happy with your Tesla. Ok. But come on, do you understand that the rest of the 7 billion people on this planet make up a wide variety of humans with a wide variety of wants and needs where a vehicle is concerned?
And that literally ZERO manufacturers can make a handful of cars that everyone will want?
It's not 5 years ago. There are now quite a few makers of quality reasonably priced EVs. If someone decides to avoid one particular maker over politics there are plenty of other choices.
And that's just North America. BYD and NIO have extremely compelling options outside of this side of the planet.
My current car is a 2018 tesla, I'll drive it until the wheels fall off. My next EV won't be. Primarily because I can't support a Nazi.
The US has been a net exporter of oil for several years now and what it does import is mainly (>70%) production from Canada and Mexico. As far as crude oil goes, in 2024 the US imported 6.48 million barrels per day and exported 4.06 million. Of those 2.42 million barrels of crude oil, approximately 1.7 million came from oilfields in Canada and Mexico.
While we as a society should transition away from fossil fuels as quickly as practical, there is actually a very small chance a gallon of gasoline pumped into a vehicle originated in a shady petrostate.
>Tesla’s are obviously incredible engineering feats that everyone should want
Teslas were impressive, technologically, to normal consumers ten years ago.
Having driven every single model of Tesla ever made they are not for me except for the Roadster; their dynamics more closely resemble a heavily laden minivan with fantastic acceleration than a fun-to-drive car and their styling is design-by-committee bland.
But for what they actually offer (excluding the "betas" and "Muskian Promises"), most manufacturers make a car that's comparable / better depending on your needs.
And if things are comparable, than you can bring in other things to make a decision. And the politics of the company's outspoken CEO is certainly something you could consider.
And Tesla had an edge but it has been eroding with some idiotic decisions (like the no stalks model 3) and Elon's recent behavior completely destroyed the brand to those mostly likely to buy one.
But I think a functioning democracy is something that everyone should want, incredible engineering feats aside.