The main problem is that once you minimally need only one app which is only available for smartphones (banking, whatsapp, etc.) it's game-over. It's all or nothing.
For example, my bank requires that you install an app on your phone to approve any online purcharse. Game over.
piqufoh · 1d ago
Another ridiculous use case is paying for tickets in car parks, some require a smartphone (with no cash or alternative options).
And UK primary schools - catching up with the kids homework, messages from the teacher - requires an app and a smartphone!
It's so frustrating!
lrvick · 1d ago
In those cases I just park and pay the ticket if I get one... which I can always pay online without an app. They always make collecting tickets easy. Once you know the non-advertized online web portal you can normally pay for spaces that way next time.
ljf · 1d ago
While I agree that you don't need an app - you still need a smart phone to be able to buy that ticket from the website - unless you are carrying a tablet or laptop with a network connection.
lrvick · 1d ago
I do sometimes carry a pocket wifi-only laptop in cities for working on the go which has gotten the job done in the past to prove I could.
In practice if they do not make it easy to pay then I just park without paying. The 1/10 times I actually get a fine works out to be cheaper than paying for parking up front.
ljf · 1d ago
Fair enough - you are lucky there - in the UK lots of city and council owned parking has ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) - just by driving onto the lot and by the sign you are deemed to have agreed to their conditions. If you don't buy a ticket you'll get an automatic fine through the post a week or so later.
That said, roadside parking is far more hit and miss for ticketing, but as a source of revenue, most councils take it fairly seriously here for the free money.
lrvick · 14h ago
So your city/council actually have laws that require you to agree to the data sharing agreements with US companies like Google or Apple in order to use one of their devices to install an app in order to park?
And if you don't pay hundreds of pounds for a smartphone, you are not allowed to park? Or if your battery is dead? Or if your religion prohibits the use of smartphones?
If true, I bet framing it that way to the public would help get people on board with some law reform.
No one should be depending on Google or Apple at a government or city or educational level in any way, including in the US.
antisol · 1d ago
What happens when you tell them you don't have a smartphone and won't be getting one?
FirmwareBurner · 1d ago
>some require a smartphone
Mandating the need of smartphone apps to access critical services and basic life necessities like payments, parking, refueling, charging your car, public transport tickets, etc should be banned under accessibility laws.
All this only benefits the service provider, not the consumer, since if the service is broken in some way (LTE/internet issue, payment processor issue, backend/cloud outage, etc) or has terrible UX, then the externalities and negative effects of that are all on the customer to deal with. Because what else are you gonna do on the spot? Not charge your car? Leave it in the middle of the road? Not board the bus to get to work? The problem they caused becomes your problem to deal with even though you have the money to pay but no easy way to do it because of their crap.
Governments need to hold service prodivers accountable for the misery they cause and have them offer payment solutions and alternatives to smartphone apps for such critical services.
Fredkin · 1d ago
^This 100%. And sometimes I get the argument back: they've become so commonplace now that you're just being unreasonable.
I'm required to wear clothes in public (Indecent exposure laws) and I need to have at least a pen or pencil to sign documents and do tax returns demanded by law. But I have a vast array of options when it comes to clothes and stationery, and most importantly I'm not required to agree to a foreign company's EULA to use them, unlike smartphones.
go_elmo · 1d ago
Its like trying to ban cars to stay with horse cariages. The wheels of time wont be turned back. Imo the issue is not Smartphones but addicting UX patterns implemented - those should be banned. Its possible to make Smartphone usage non addictive - add friction to "candy" eg uninstall social media apps (use web only) use a quiet launcher (no app icons), remove all notifications except emergency ones etc.
veddox · 1d ago
Replacing stable, working "low-tech" solutions with less user-friendly, unstable "high-tech" approaches is not "progress"!
Just because something is newer doesn't mean it's better. Obviously, the reverse is also true, but there is so much tech naiveté going around that this needs saying repeatedly. We'd have saved our society a lot of trouble if we'd first thought about draw-backs of new technology, before hooking everything in our lives up to it.
antisol · 1d ago
> the issue is not Smartphones
Cool, so I assume you'll be able to tell me which smartphone and doesn't require agreeing to a EULA?
FirmwareBurner · 1d ago
We're talking about different things here I think. What does phones and apps being addictive have to to do with the fact that a parking lot requires me to install an app to park my car or charge my car? There are a million other issues here than addictive apps. The internet connection could be down, he backend of the app could be down, etc. This shouldn't stop people from being able to use an important service like parking, charging, refueling, transportation, etc. You should be able to slot in some coins in a machine, get a paper ticket out, and that's it, you're in.
>The wheels of time wont be turned back.
They can be turned back by laws if the direction they've been turning by the unregulated free market lead us to a bad place that's discriminatory and causing misery to consumers, especially for critical services.
We've been able to park and refuel cars fast and efficient for decades with no issues before apps and smartphones. Not all progress is good progress. Sometimes progress is just for the sake of cutting corners to increase profits for businesses at the expense of consumers. I don't want an "Bezos-fication" or "Musk-fication" of essential services.
lrvick · 1d ago
Everyone says their bank or doctor, or favorite restaurant, or whatever requires an app. It is basically NEVER true. You just have to insist you do not own a compatible device and do not want one as you do not wish to accept the terms of service of Google or Apple, and/or say it is against your undisclosed religion. Works every time. Even at theme parks like Disney that insist you need an app for the map or fast pass... a manager can always override that requirement and give you the magic edge case privileges.
Source: Not had a cell phone carrier or carried a phone in 5 years and never been restricted from doing anything I did previously, as a frequently traveling tech business owner.
chrismorgan · 1d ago
I had cause to need WhatsApp a bit over a year ago: it requires a device that runs iOS, or Android with Google Play. I just assumed I could get past this, but the signup flow refused to run on LineageOS with MicroG via Waydroid on my laptop—wanted an authentic, Google-approved environment. Maybe that can be worked around; I don’t know. Subsequently you can run WhatsApp Web… but you can’t make calls that way, and if you don’t run it on an actual phone for two weeks, it’ll boot you.
u_sama · 1d ago
In Europe, in order to be compliant with the new banking rules, you need to have a kind of external confirmation which is, ding ding ding your smartphone. You literally need to open your bank app in order to approve online transactions.
And increasingly things are being digitalised thus you need will have an increasing need for smartphone because of such proposals.
The alternative is that the bank sneds you a clunky OTP machine with a code every time you want to make a purchase or transaction.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF · 1d ago
It seems another alternative is to build a scheme that works with a universal second factor like a yubikey.
card_zero · 1d ago
Or SMS.
thibaultamartin · 1d ago
It's exactly that. And I also have come to the realization that I don't have to give up the convenience my smartphone offers. I only need to add friction for what causes distractions.
I’ve thought about this, because I’ve been meaning to make the switch. The solution isn’t that hard, just keep the smartphone in your desk drawer and use it for OTPs and banking apps. It’s annoying to have two phones and two numbers, but it can be done.
ale42 · 1d ago
Why do you even need a number on the smartphone? It can just work over wifi without SIM card. When you need an SMS to activate an app, you receive it on the dumbphone and type in the auth code on the "smart" one.
nalinidash · 1d ago
All UPI apps here(in India) register to bank in an automated way using Sim verification.It is baked to the app,you can't do the verification manually.
lrvick · 1d ago
You do not even need it for OTPs and banking apps. Even if employees tell you it is, they are always wrong in my experience.
That QR code you are always shown when you setup an OTP? It usually uses the TOTP algorithm supported by a dozen password managers or hardware keychain devices that will generate codes for you on demand without a phone.
Say you do not have a compatible phone and the app requirement can be waived by a manager.
Not had a smartphone in 5 years. It is never a blocker.
zihotki · 1d ago
Or they will simply give a corporate one to you and tell to use it and carry it during working hours
lrvick · 1d ago
Many employers have tried. I activate it, throw it in a drawer to let the battery die never to be turned on again.
People quickly find I am reachable at my desk and otherwise am always driving, in a shower, swimming, in a theater, it has a dead battery, every single time. Even in leadership roles.
My time away from my desk is my time, and people learn to respect that, and even empower some of them to do the same.
ale42 · 1d ago
My bank requires it too. Except that if you call the customer service and tell them that well, you have no smartphone, then they switch you to SMS auth for that.
mattbee · 1d ago
Get a tablet? A really big, underpowered one? You can still use Android & iOS but if it's not in your pocket, that achieves some of the same goals without sacrificing those "compulsory" apps.
_Algernon_ · 1d ago
You can get pretty far by "dumbiphying" your smartphone. Uninstall / disable the web browser, social media, but keep 2fa apps and other essentials.
puttycat · 1d ago
Right, but since we're dealing with addiction, I'd just reinstall it after 30 minutes.
Aerbil313 · 1d ago
There are 2 bypass-free self-restriction (or self-liberation!) solutions for the iPhone.
The first is is supervised MDM. If you have a Mac you can do it yourself (though you need to learn iPhone MDM). You can also pay companies like TechLockdown, they'll give you a customized remote-controlled profile to install that is not removable at a weak moment. You can set a lock with delay. When you need to wait 6 hours to change the settings, you won't be changing your settings to allow $ADDICTIVE_APP.
The second option is much more complicated and has some caveats, like an inability to update apps, but I'll explain it since nobody seem to know about it.
There is a way to turn an iPhone into a dumbphone, while keeping your banking app, without a Mac, for free.
Go to Settings > Screen Time:
- Set up a PIN for Screen Time. You’ll be asked to provide a recovery account. Create another Apple account with a password hard to memorize, like sjhr3762962826. Write that down.
- In Content Restrictions > App Store, Media, Web, & Games > Web Content, set it to Only Approved Websites. Add all the websites you need to use in your daily life. Start simple, you'll quickly discover which ones you actually need. I'll let you in on a little secret: You don't need news.ycombinator.com in your pocket.
- In Content Restrictions > iTunes & App Store purchases, disallow Installing Apps.
- Personally, I also delete all apps that have any sort of infinite online content (even Wikipedia).
- Set up Downtime for when you are supposed to be asleep.
- Set up Always Allowed for critical apps which you might need even during your usual sleep hours (Health app, WhatsApp, Google Maps, etc.)
- Final step: Let a very close person (like family member) change the Screen Time PIN, and let him write it down somewhere safe. Then give the password and the PIN to the person for safekeeping.
When you need to change the settings (you want to add another allowed website, you want to install a new app, etc.) ask that person to make the change.
There is a way you can not rely on another person, too. I won't detail it here, but it involves timelocking the Apple account's password and the Screen Time PIN. See https://github.com/rayanamal/timelock
With this setup, you can’t change the Screen Time settings yourself, and you can’t reset the PIN using “I forgot the PIN” button either.
puttycat · 18h ago
Oh wow thank you, I've been searching for something like this for a long time.
emberfiend · 1d ago
Yeah, a smartphone with no dopamine feeds installed on it seems like the sane middle path here.
binarymax · 1d ago
Only works if you can also remove the browser.
jen729w · 1d ago
Done this.
Re-installed the browser.
const_cast · 11h ago
Yes, me too.
It's an addiction, plain and simple. I used to throw away my pack of cigs every single day for months. Months! Always bought one the next day. Very expensive. Crazy how quick the mind changes it's mind.
jangrahul · 1d ago
Another eg of this: Approve two factor login with microsoft authenticator app. Game over.
noufalibrahim · 1d ago
There are compromise solutions that make it a pain to use which goes a long way to defeating addiction. Here are a few
1. Make the screen monochrome. It greatly reduces the appeal of the entire system.
2. Increase the font size so that things don't look as pretty and slick. You deliberately cripple the UX.
3. As much as possible, use a browser instead of an "app" (e.g. X, Amazon etc.) and then set a limit for the time you can use your browser per day.
A combination of these has helped me reduce my attachment to the phone. There are also lots of times when I don't take it with me.
antisol · 1d ago
It sounds like you need to switch banks
ekianjo · 1d ago
It's even worse than banking there are some stores that only accept app-based payments these days (no credit card either) which should be completely illegal
lrvick · 1d ago
Never experienced this in 5 years of shopping all over the world. I just say I do not have a compatible phone, am traveling, against my religion, or whatever, and they get a manager who can bust out some non-advertized alternative.
Take the time to do this so others do not have to.
I make restaurants print me menus, and I make theme parks get me a paper map and accept cash so I maintain my privacy.
antisol · 1d ago
Which stores?
It sounds like maybe you should go to a different one.
hrudham · 1d ago
Many dumbphones only support technologies (2G, 3G, etc.) that are actively being deprecated at the moment. If you are using a modern one, you still get rid of many useful things like maps, Signal and WhatsApp (the latter I've found is sometimes critical for interacting with some companies that have migrated their support there, like my ISP). Are there dumbphones that support just those two features? If not, then I don't feel like moving over to one is realistic.
Rather, just don't install whatever application is distracting you, and try simply turning notifications off. I still can't believe how many people simply don't have the willpower to do this.
On the battery life point, when you remove a lot of this cruft, you'd be surprised how much gain back as well, since you're also not staring at the thing with the screen on all the time. I'm on a 5 year old iPhone mini that I'm still regularly getting two days out of.
Another pet peeve: graphs should have axes that start at zero, or clearly point out why they are zoomed in. It's to easy to mislead readers otherwise, and great for making something sensational.
yyx · 1d ago
> TikTok, Instagram Shorts, YouTube Reels
Just don't install these apps? There are tons of useful apps that don't require your constant attention.
puttycat · 1d ago
The OP correctly mentions that we're dealing with real addiction here. Telling an addict to "just not do it" is futile.
card_zero · 1d ago
Where does the unattributed, axis-doesn't-start-at-zero chart of declining attention span come from? It looks like there were five sample years since 2000, but who was sampled, and "attention span" was measured how? "As the chart shows, attention spans are plummeting" is not very impressive when the chart is just a line that goes down and some mysterious times in seconds. Tineye had nothing.
Damn, I guess I skimmed the article with my short attention span :). He's right, but the title is clickbaity.
sceptic123 · 1d ago
But not installing/using or blocking those apps is as much of an alternative as using a dumb phone.
const_cast · 11h ago
Sure, in the same was as "eat less" is a viable alternative for the obesity epidemic.
But it's not a solution. Obviously, that just won't work for people who have a propensity to over-consume, or people who have a propensity to scroll in this case. If it were that easy, then everyone would do it. Then we'd all hold hands and sing Kumbaya.
jiehong · 1d ago
Maybe give parental control to a friend for your phone so you’re limited in what can be done.
Or maybe companies could provide a lock down mode that you can’t change for 1 year at a time, like a locked bank account or something.
huksley · 1d ago
But how I will post to reels and stories how great my life is
sceptic123 · 1d ago
Just start a blog instead
freehorse · 1d ago
All this sounds great, but it makes little sense when the primary way of communication with others nowadays is through chatting apps (WhatsApp signal l etc) rather than SMS or phone calls. I could as well not have a phone at all or leave it home.
lrvick · 1d ago
I use Matrix because, among other reasons, it does not require you to be a cell service subscriber, which I am not.
I asked my friends if they were seriously asking me to sign a contract with Apple and Google and Meta etc against my personal beliefs about privacy rights in order to be friends with them.
They respected it and installed matrix and many even use that now between each other because auditable end to end encryption sounds better than not.
Social graphs can pull both ways, and ethics are on your side.
Would you stop being friends with someone that went vegan?
Stick up for the rights for -anyone- to be an integrated member of society without signing data sharing agreements with a cell carrier, apple, or google.
ale42 · 1d ago
Well, maybe that also needs to change. Try to check how much time you need to spend to solve something with chatting, vs. how much it takes with a phone call. In many cases the call is 10 times quicker, and it's a more natural interaction. Sure, chats have their uses cases too and are a great function to have in addition to calling, but the fact that people now tend to use chats for just everything IMHO needs to be reconsidered.
herbst · 1d ago
For me chatting and not calling is about distraction. Very few people are allowed to distract me on their own terms. Sounds weird but I got used to it after a burnout and plenty of travelling.
The thing is that a call disrupts me whatever I am doing while on a chat I can answer whenever I have time physically and mentally. Usually the next time I run by my phone.
I would not want to go back
linsomniac · 1d ago
My wife is a nurse and is basically unreachable via voice while she is working, but texting she can get back to me when she isn't actively with a patient.
A company was trying to follow up on a contact form. They called me while I was in a meeting, I used my "screen call" feature to tell them to call me back in 2 hours. They called me back in 1.5 hours when I was in another meeting, didn't leave a voice mail or call me back. A simple text of "When are you available to speak" would have been 1000x more productive.
Yes, there are definitely cases where a phone call is faster than text. But the opposite is also true.
freehorse · 1d ago
Well I partially agree (I prefer asynchronous modes of communication until it gets to what you describe and is faster resolved with a call) but calls (and video calls) _also_ happen through such chat apps nowadays, at least for me.
aboringusername · 1d ago
Phone calling is great and all, however, for complaince, safety and monitoring purposes having things in writing as a direct evidence trail is, sadly, something that is essential.
Too many people like to use phone calls as a way of bypassing GDPR (especially around consent to record calls). I know businesses that rely on phone calls as a primary method of communication as they know it's easier to bypass some degree of record keeping.
So I'll take my emails/letters/writing over phone calls any day.
antisol · 1d ago
that's only because you choose to use those methods. Which of your friends is unable to receive an SMS message?
INTPenis · 1d ago
In some countries I'm sure you can get away with it.
But I have a friend here in Sweden who tries hard to avoid our eID monopoly "BankID", and also doesn't use credit cards, and I see how he struggles with everyday things.
I wasn't put on this earth for a short time to struggle with such mundane things.
lrvick · 1d ago
Fight for the right to opt out of toxic business practices to make it easier for the disabled or those that cannot advocate for themselves.
That is giving society value.
card_zero · 1d ago
I use a dumbphone, but it's not because I'm worried I might be having too much fun, or because I want to have any healthy relationships or pay attention to things around me. It's just that every damn business wants to install its app in my pocket, often for flimsy reasons. It seems proper to resist. For instance my local shopping mall used to have maps, on physical boards. Then it installed big touchscreens. Do they display the map, and update every day? No! The only thing they show when touched is a giant QR code to get shoppers to install the app that has the map on it (and presumably ads and tracking too).
whitehexagon · 1d ago
I found the data on attention span really interesting and quite shocking.
I'm also driving a 'dumbphone' but disappointed with HMD's / Nokia's definition. It still has a fb app, yuk! and tries to do things with data connection (I had to get a sim with data disabled, not so easy these days). The few games on there trigger some kind of billing charge if you play them a few times. Oh and no developer SDK.
What is nice is the peace and silence it has brought me. I was quite unsure at first, especially having been an App developer for many years. But now I am very happy to have escaped notification hell.
I also dont want to live in a world where I have to carry a 'smart' tracking device around to be able to partake in society. When my bank insisted on an App I waved my dumb phone, and suddenly I was able to continue without.
I am hoping it will be enough to avoid being forced into a digital-euro tracking currency. But too many people take the easy option, and so I am sure I fight a losing battle. But I wonder at what point carrying a smartphone will become a legal requirement? provided by the government? or appear in public libraries for us odd-balls that value privacy. Probably they just make the dumbphones smarter, or illegal, like cash seems to be heading.
card_zero · 1d ago
I found the data on attention span uncited and meaningless, but yes, certainly shocking. I wonder who made that chart and how the times were measured and who participated. Still, shocking, so I guess it did its job.
veddox · 1d ago
I've been thinking about moving to a dumb phone again for the past few months, but so far I've decided against it, for three reasons:
1. Signal/Whatsapp/Threema: biggest reason by far - while I message much less than many others, these platforms are just the way a lot of (group) communication works nowadays. It is possible to go without, but it causes so much hassle when organising things or trying to stay up to date with what's happening in a group, and would disrupt my international friendships.
2. Maps & public transport apps: are just super useful to have available, especially if you regularly travel in places you don't know (well).
3. Camera: This one I'm still a bit undecided on, but I think I would miss not having it at hand.
However, I do try to actively give my phone as little space in my life as possible. I have no social networks on it (I don't have any left by now, anyway), and no other apps that involve scrolling. And I continue to think about how I can avoid distractions from it.
nehal3m · 1d ago
I’m always tempted by the idea. I like the focus on attention span, compartmentalizing functionality (a phone is just a phone, not a notebook, camera, movie theater and encyclopedia) and less tracking by third parties. The thing is modern smartphones are just so damn useful. I find it hard to swallow that I’d have to let go of all that usefulness because it’s detrimental in some respects. Setting it up such that it works only in your favor is relatively simple (grey scale, notifications off, insert strategy here) but then keeping it that way and preventing feature creep back to square one is hard. It requires constant vigilance. It feels like the ol’ “adversarially wrestling usefulness out of a trillion dollar company”.
TruffleLabs · 21h ago
I believe phones can be addictive.
I do want to point out =>
"The attention span myth - No, the average human attention span is not 1 second less than that of the goldfish."
I know someone who doesn’t use food delivery apps, doesn’t shop online, and lives very minimally. For them, a dumbphone works just fine.
But for most of us, life is already deeply tied to apps: banking, transport, messaging, work. A lot of things aren't even optional anymore — many services expect you to use an app.
Once you go convenient, it’s really hard to go back. You don’t just lose access to entertainment — you lose infrastructure.
lrvick · 1d ago
You can use webapps for all of those things. You do not need Android or iOS for anything. A appless browser on a laptop or linux tablet will do just fine.
debuggerson · 1d ago
But when come to phone, webapp is much more troublesome to use, not friendly for phone user. But after all, it’s the lifestyle that you choose that decide it.
lrvick · 14h ago
You can save most webapps to your home screen and they then look/feel similar to native apps if you really want to go that route.
Bonus: they also work on non android/iOS platforms
redcannon218 · 1d ago
The claims about privacy are, at best, dubious.
While it's true that there are less opportunities to track you through leaky / malicious apps, "dumbphones" remain, well, phones, with data retention laws in almost all countries in the world (and the subsequent leaks / hacks, see the recent Salt typhoon events for a good example) plus extra vulnerabilities due to poorly-developed Operating Systems.
veddox · 1d ago
That depends on what threat scenario you're looking at. If your government wants to track you, they'll find a way, regardless of what phone you're using (or not).
But the privacy gains of not installing a load of third-party apps from a dozen different data-selling businesses (or using an operating system built by the mother of all data-selling businesses) are very substantial.
jfritsch1984 · 1d ago
I‘ve got an iPhone and I use the focus mode and App Limits to great success. If I start Instagram during the day, for example, a gray screen appears and reminds me to think again. It works great against my reflexes. Also no push notifications from these apps.
Probably not for total addicts, but it got me back into focus mode for the last 6 months. I built 3 apps while working a main job.
huksley · 1d ago
Social media apps can have notifications turned off, so you check them when you voluntarily go and open them.
Unfortunately for email the problem still persists, tons of newsletters and updates and other not so important emails and really urgent ones get drowned in that.
What I typically do is I snooze everything for 2 hours and have a productive session without interruption.
crypt1d · 1d ago
In general I support this but the idea starts to fall apart real quick if your primary place of work is in front of a computer.
Fredkin · 1d ago
I've never had a smart phone and all my work is in front of computers. I was a bit worried during COVID lockdowns that I'd be forced to get one, but didn't have to in the end. Occasionally it can be annoying in other ways for example:
1) you buy a piece of hardware (printer, cctv cameras etc.) that can only be set up with a phone or you have to work harder to find the web interface.
2) Banks - banks really suck.
3) Companies I work for who use VPNs where you need a SMS or authenticator, however this is usually easy to get around with a web authenticator and some companies have let me use a YubiKey instead which is actually much less hassle.
4) Car parking meters where they discriminate - I tend to avoid these ones.
5) QR code restaurant menus - hate these but usually can get around it by just asking somebody for a paper menu.
6) Phasing out of 3G causing low reception - this is annoying because there are fewer good dumbphones that have 4G modems. Also I hate Android and Android based phones which come with facebook app and social media stuff installed so I'm a bit more limited in options. However, I managed to get an Alcatel flip phone which has 4G and it's a bit buggy but reception is now good.
I'm surprised that I'm able to get by, given the enormous pressure everyone is put under to use a smart phone, but it gives me hope that it hasn't worked and you can still get by in society without them. It would be pretty terrible if everyone HAD to agree to a google or Apple EULA just to be a functioning citizen.
ale42 · 1d ago
You mean because you can access the same kind of attention-damaging content from the computer?
herbst · 1d ago
I have a weird relationship to notifications. They kinda stress me, but I know as long as there are no notifications all systems are working fine and I can do whatever I want.
What I would need is a dump smart watch with SIM card and proper battery lifetime and proper API so I can build from scratch and not start with android pushing everything on me.
magic_hamster · 1d ago
Social media is horrible, and I rarely use them. However there are some truly necessary apps on my smartphone that I just can't deal without, namely an authenticator that lets me log into services, and Whatsapp which lots of businesses and some government offices use for formal support and contact.
kennu · 1d ago
I don't really know what to do with a dumbphone, since I don't get any phone calls or text messages any more. Everything goes through apps, email or web nowadays.
WindyMiller · 1d ago
I was drawn to this idea but then I realised that the number of phone calls/texts I made/received was so low I would essentially be carrying the phone in case of emergencies. Or, more accurately, because I didn't feel comfortable being without a phone for any length of time. (Remember when people used to complain about all mobile phones, because they felt they shouldn't be contactable all the time? Kind of remarkable that the same device is now the 'disconnected' option!)
Now I carry an Android phone with an epaper display and a physical keyboard, which feels like a really good middle ground to me. It's good at the things that are important to me (reading, writing, communication), can do whatever other essentials I need it to in a scrape, and is absolute dogshit at scrolling through nonsense. The device itself feels rather less polished than the Pixel I was using before, but since I'm using it much less that doesn't seem like a problem. My old pre-smartphone phones always felt kind of janky too!
lrvick · 1d ago
In a home emergency I pick up one of many DECT wireless phones around the house
In an emergency in public, I yell "Help!" and 20 phones come out.
In a major emergency when cell phone lines are down I can tune to the frequency of my local police and yell at them all to come to me. They never deploy any useful encryption on those things.
So far so good. Even when I totaled a vehicle. Always reliably other people around with emergency phones so I do not need one.
jhrmnn · 1d ago
One thing that'd be hard to give up is the camera. I have two small kids. I captured so many beautiful moments only thanks to a camera always being around.
lrvick · 1d ago
I just have cheap digital cameras laying around the house anyone can use. If anything you may get -more- pictures this way.
yyx · 1d ago
One simple solution is to buy a cheap used phone. Every app is made for flagships now. You'll still be able to use the apps, but everything will lag.
Milpotel · 1d ago
> the battery life of a dumbphone is LEGENDARY. You literally only need to charge it once every three days at most
But the battery of my cheap debloated Xiaomi lasts 5 days...
brador · 1d ago
My sooution: If the phone is face down it’s work time. Brain automatically associates.
ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 · 1d ago
My solution: make your phone hard to open. if you use a long password that is difficult to enter, you will use it much less.
then on the phone, you can use other apps to help modify your behavior, firefox with leechblock, etc.
brador · 1d ago
This doesn’t work, on the streets you need access fast. Transit, shopping, even camera to record something fast. Typing a long pass simply takes far too long at the wrong times.
ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 · 1d ago
Yeah, I enable quicker forms of authentication if I know I am going to need to access my phone often (like when using maps, or the camera). Then I set it back when I notice it doesn't prompt for a password.
I think it is a good practice from a security perspective as well.
I am used to doing these things though. For example, I use NoScript in the browser with deny all as the default setting. To me, it is worth taking some extra steps to prevent unwanted alteration of my behavior.
lrvick · 1d ago
I spend plenty of time on streets of lots of cities, with no cell phone at all, so I hardly see a slow-access phone as limiting either.
I could get a camera maybe, or one of the tiny emergency 911 keychain phones that do not require a cell phone plan... but a smartphone? Why is that needed?
I use planes, trains, taxis, rideshare, hotels all over the world and shop all over the world and never been denied anything for not having a phone.
ivape · 1d ago
you actually start listening to the person in front of you
As shocking as this will sound, there really is no person in front of many people. The human is desperately trying to feel part of a body of people, but the solutions we have (social media, internet media diet) is the least nutrient rich thing imaginable.
lrvick · 1d ago
People can go to a board game night, hiking, swimming, classes, interest events, etc. The ways people met in person before the internet still all exist. There are always ways to meet other human beings unless you are medically bound to a bed or have to travel a lot, in which case find internet friends.
People you follow are not friends.
magic_hamster · 1d ago
This always makes me chuckle because way before smartphones, cheeky teenagers would defiantly ignore anyone and everyone. Having a screen in your face is just an excuse for some people to completely ignore their environment.
And UK primary schools - catching up with the kids homework, messages from the teacher - requires an app and a smartphone!
It's so frustrating!
In practice if they do not make it easy to pay then I just park without paying. The 1/10 times I actually get a fine works out to be cheaper than paying for parking up front.
That said, roadside parking is far more hit and miss for ticketing, but as a source of revenue, most councils take it fairly seriously here for the free money.
And if you don't pay hundreds of pounds for a smartphone, you are not allowed to park? Or if your battery is dead? Or if your religion prohibits the use of smartphones?
If true, I bet framing it that way to the public would help get people on board with some law reform.
No one should be depending on Google or Apple at a government or city or educational level in any way, including in the US.
Mandating the need of smartphone apps to access critical services and basic life necessities like payments, parking, refueling, charging your car, public transport tickets, etc should be banned under accessibility laws.
All this only benefits the service provider, not the consumer, since if the service is broken in some way (LTE/internet issue, payment processor issue, backend/cloud outage, etc) or has terrible UX, then the externalities and negative effects of that are all on the customer to deal with. Because what else are you gonna do on the spot? Not charge your car? Leave it in the middle of the road? Not board the bus to get to work? The problem they caused becomes your problem to deal with even though you have the money to pay but no easy way to do it because of their crap.
Governments need to hold service prodivers accountable for the misery they cause and have them offer payment solutions and alternatives to smartphone apps for such critical services.
I'm required to wear clothes in public (Indecent exposure laws) and I need to have at least a pen or pencil to sign documents and do tax returns demanded by law. But I have a vast array of options when it comes to clothes and stationery, and most importantly I'm not required to agree to a foreign company's EULA to use them, unlike smartphones.
Just because something is newer doesn't mean it's better. Obviously, the reverse is also true, but there is so much tech naiveté going around that this needs saying repeatedly. We'd have saved our society a lot of trouble if we'd first thought about draw-backs of new technology, before hooking everything in our lives up to it.
Cool, so I assume you'll be able to tell me which smartphone and doesn't require agreeing to a EULA?
>The wheels of time wont be turned back.
They can be turned back by laws if the direction they've been turning by the unregulated free market lead us to a bad place that's discriminatory and causing misery to consumers, especially for critical services.
We've been able to park and refuel cars fast and efficient for decades with no issues before apps and smartphones. Not all progress is good progress. Sometimes progress is just for the sake of cutting corners to increase profits for businesses at the expense of consumers. I don't want an "Bezos-fication" or "Musk-fication" of essential services.
Source: Not had a cell phone carrier or carried a phone in 5 years and never been restricted from doing anything I did previously, as a frequently traveling tech business owner.
The alternative is that the bank sneds you a clunky OTP machine with a code every time you want to make a purchase or transaction.
In particular, the Personal Time mode of iOS has been a game changer for me: https://ergaster.org/til/ask-smartphone-attention/
That QR code you are always shown when you setup an OTP? It usually uses the TOTP algorithm supported by a dozen password managers or hardware keychain devices that will generate codes for you on demand without a phone.
Say you do not have a compatible phone and the app requirement can be waived by a manager.
Not had a smartphone in 5 years. It is never a blocker.
People quickly find I am reachable at my desk and otherwise am always driving, in a shower, swimming, in a theater, it has a dead battery, every single time. Even in leadership roles.
My time away from my desk is my time, and people learn to respect that, and even empower some of them to do the same.
The first is is supervised MDM. If you have a Mac you can do it yourself (though you need to learn iPhone MDM). You can also pay companies like TechLockdown, they'll give you a customized remote-controlled profile to install that is not removable at a weak moment. You can set a lock with delay. When you need to wait 6 hours to change the settings, you won't be changing your settings to allow $ADDICTIVE_APP.
The second option is much more complicated and has some caveats, like an inability to update apps, but I'll explain it since nobody seem to know about it.
There is a way to turn an iPhone into a dumbphone, while keeping your banking app, without a Mac, for free.
Go to Settings > Screen Time:
- Set up a PIN for Screen Time. You’ll be asked to provide a recovery account. Create another Apple account with a password hard to memorize, like sjhr3762962826. Write that down.
- In Content Restrictions > App Store, Media, Web, & Games > Web Content, set it to Only Approved Websites. Add all the websites you need to use in your daily life. Start simple, you'll quickly discover which ones you actually need. I'll let you in on a little secret: You don't need news.ycombinator.com in your pocket.
- In Content Restrictions > iTunes & App Store purchases, disallow Installing Apps.
- Personally, I also delete all apps that have any sort of infinite online content (even Wikipedia).
- Set up Downtime for when you are supposed to be asleep.
- Set up Always Allowed for critical apps which you might need even during your usual sleep hours (Health app, WhatsApp, Google Maps, etc.)
- Final step: Let a very close person (like family member) change the Screen Time PIN, and let him write it down somewhere safe. Then give the password and the PIN to the person for safekeeping.
When you need to change the settings (you want to add another allowed website, you want to install a new app, etc.) ask that person to make the change.
There is a way you can not rely on another person, too. I won't detail it here, but it involves timelocking the Apple account's password and the Screen Time PIN. See https://github.com/rayanamal/timelock
With this setup, you can’t change the Screen Time settings yourself, and you can’t reset the PIN using “I forgot the PIN” button either.
Re-installed the browser.
It's an addiction, plain and simple. I used to throw away my pack of cigs every single day for months. Months! Always bought one the next day. Very expensive. Crazy how quick the mind changes it's mind.
1. Make the screen monochrome. It greatly reduces the appeal of the entire system.
2. Increase the font size so that things don't look as pretty and slick. You deliberately cripple the UX.
3. As much as possible, use a browser instead of an "app" (e.g. X, Amazon etc.) and then set a limit for the time you can use your browser per day.
4. I use this as a launcher on my phone https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.qqlabs.min... which prevents has "mindfulness delays" for selected apps and other features that make the usage less smooth.
A combination of these has helped me reduce my attachment to the phone. There are also lots of times when I don't take it with me.
Take the time to do this so others do not have to.
I make restaurants print me menus, and I make theme parks get me a paper map and accept cash so I maintain my privacy.
It sounds like maybe you should go to a different one.
Rather, just don't install whatever application is distracting you, and try simply turning notifications off. I still can't believe how many people simply don't have the willpower to do this.
On the battery life point, when you remove a lot of this cruft, you'd be surprised how much gain back as well, since you're also not staring at the thing with the screen on all the time. I'm on a 5 year old iPhone mini that I'm still regularly getting two days out of.
Another pet peeve: graphs should have axes that start at zero, or clearly point out why they are zoomed in. It's to easy to mislead readers otherwise, and great for making something sensational.
Just don't install these apps? There are tons of useful apps that don't require your constant attention.
But it's not a solution. Obviously, that just won't work for people who have a propensity to over-consume, or people who have a propensity to scroll in this case. If it were that easy, then everyone would do it. Then we'd all hold hands and sing Kumbaya.
Or maybe companies could provide a lock down mode that you can’t change for 1 year at a time, like a locked bank account or something.
I asked my friends if they were seriously asking me to sign a contract with Apple and Google and Meta etc against my personal beliefs about privacy rights in order to be friends with them.
They respected it and installed matrix and many even use that now between each other because auditable end to end encryption sounds better than not.
Social graphs can pull both ways, and ethics are on your side.
Would you stop being friends with someone that went vegan?
Stick up for the rights for -anyone- to be an integrated member of society without signing data sharing agreements with a cell carrier, apple, or google.
The thing is that a call disrupts me whatever I am doing while on a chat I can answer whenever I have time physically and mentally. Usually the next time I run by my phone.
I would not want to go back
A company was trying to follow up on a contact form. They called me while I was in a meeting, I used my "screen call" feature to tell them to call me back in 2 hours. They called me back in 1.5 hours when I was in another meeting, didn't leave a voice mail or call me back. A simple text of "When are you available to speak" would have been 1000x more productive.
Yes, there are definitely cases where a phone call is faster than text. But the opposite is also true.
Too many people like to use phone calls as a way of bypassing GDPR (especially around consent to record calls). I know businesses that rely on phone calls as a primary method of communication as they know it's easier to bypass some degree of record keeping.
So I'll take my emails/letters/writing over phone calls any day.
But I have a friend here in Sweden who tries hard to avoid our eID monopoly "BankID", and also doesn't use credit cards, and I see how he struggles with everyday things.
I wasn't put on this earth for a short time to struggle with such mundane things.
That is giving society value.
I'm also driving a 'dumbphone' but disappointed with HMD's / Nokia's definition. It still has a fb app, yuk! and tries to do things with data connection (I had to get a sim with data disabled, not so easy these days). The few games on there trigger some kind of billing charge if you play them a few times. Oh and no developer SDK.
What is nice is the peace and silence it has brought me. I was quite unsure at first, especially having been an App developer for many years. But now I am very happy to have escaped notification hell.
I also dont want to live in a world where I have to carry a 'smart' tracking device around to be able to partake in society. When my bank insisted on an App I waved my dumb phone, and suddenly I was able to continue without.
I am hoping it will be enough to avoid being forced into a digital-euro tracking currency. But too many people take the easy option, and so I am sure I fight a losing battle. But I wonder at what point carrying a smartphone will become a legal requirement? provided by the government? or appear in public libraries for us odd-balls that value privacy. Probably they just make the dumbphones smarter, or illegal, like cash seems to be heading.
1. Signal/Whatsapp/Threema: biggest reason by far - while I message much less than many others, these platforms are just the way a lot of (group) communication works nowadays. It is possible to go without, but it causes so much hassle when organising things or trying to stay up to date with what's happening in a group, and would disrupt my international friendships.
2. Maps & public transport apps: are just super useful to have available, especially if you regularly travel in places you don't know (well).
3. Camera: This one I'm still a bit undecided on, but I think I would miss not having it at hand.
However, I do try to actively give my phone as little space in my life as possible. I have no social networks on it (I don't have any left by now, anyway), and no other apps that involve scrolling. And I continue to think about how I can avoid distractions from it.
I do want to point out =>
"The attention span myth - No, the average human attention span is not 1 second less than that of the goldfish."
https://uxpsychology.substack.com/p/the-attention-span-myth
But for most of us, life is already deeply tied to apps: banking, transport, messaging, work. A lot of things aren't even optional anymore — many services expect you to use an app.
Once you go convenient, it’s really hard to go back. You don’t just lose access to entertainment — you lose infrastructure.
Bonus: they also work on non android/iOS platforms
While it's true that there are less opportunities to track you through leaky / malicious apps, "dumbphones" remain, well, phones, with data retention laws in almost all countries in the world (and the subsequent leaks / hacks, see the recent Salt typhoon events for a good example) plus extra vulnerabilities due to poorly-developed Operating Systems.
But the privacy gains of not installing a load of third-party apps from a dozen different data-selling businesses (or using an operating system built by the mother of all data-selling businesses) are very substantial.
Probably not for total addicts, but it got me back into focus mode for the last 6 months. I built 3 apps while working a main job.
Unfortunately for email the problem still persists, tons of newsletters and updates and other not so important emails and really urgent ones get drowned in that.
What I typically do is I snooze everything for 2 hours and have a productive session without interruption.
1) you buy a piece of hardware (printer, cctv cameras etc.) that can only be set up with a phone or you have to work harder to find the web interface.
2) Banks - banks really suck.
3) Companies I work for who use VPNs where you need a SMS or authenticator, however this is usually easy to get around with a web authenticator and some companies have let me use a YubiKey instead which is actually much less hassle.
4) Car parking meters where they discriminate - I tend to avoid these ones.
5) QR code restaurant menus - hate these but usually can get around it by just asking somebody for a paper menu.
6) Phasing out of 3G causing low reception - this is annoying because there are fewer good dumbphones that have 4G modems. Also I hate Android and Android based phones which come with facebook app and social media stuff installed so I'm a bit more limited in options. However, I managed to get an Alcatel flip phone which has 4G and it's a bit buggy but reception is now good.
I'm surprised that I'm able to get by, given the enormous pressure everyone is put under to use a smart phone, but it gives me hope that it hasn't worked and you can still get by in society without them. It would be pretty terrible if everyone HAD to agree to a google or Apple EULA just to be a functioning citizen.
What I would need is a dump smart watch with SIM card and proper battery lifetime and proper API so I can build from scratch and not start with android pushing everything on me.
Now I carry an Android phone with an epaper display and a physical keyboard, which feels like a really good middle ground to me. It's good at the things that are important to me (reading, writing, communication), can do whatever other essentials I need it to in a scrape, and is absolute dogshit at scrolling through nonsense. The device itself feels rather less polished than the Pixel I was using before, but since I'm using it much less that doesn't seem like a problem. My old pre-smartphone phones always felt kind of janky too!
In an emergency in public, I yell "Help!" and 20 phones come out.
In a major emergency when cell phone lines are down I can tune to the frequency of my local police and yell at them all to come to me. They never deploy any useful encryption on those things.
So far so good. Even when I totaled a vehicle. Always reliably other people around with emergency phones so I do not need one.
But the battery of my cheap debloated Xiaomi lasts 5 days...
then on the phone, you can use other apps to help modify your behavior, firefox with leechblock, etc.
I think it is a good practice from a security perspective as well.
I am used to doing these things though. For example, I use NoScript in the browser with deny all as the default setting. To me, it is worth taking some extra steps to prevent unwanted alteration of my behavior.
I could get a camera maybe, or one of the tiny emergency 911 keychain phones that do not require a cell phone plan... but a smartphone? Why is that needed?
I use planes, trains, taxis, rideshare, hotels all over the world and shop all over the world and never been denied anything for not having a phone.
As shocking as this will sound, there really is no person in front of many people. The human is desperately trying to feel part of a body of people, but the solutions we have (social media, internet media diet) is the least nutrient rich thing imaginable.
People you follow are not friends.