While the foundational principle holds true, Facebook has proven that anonymity is not a required component of this equation.
try_the_bass · 11h ago
A true gift, and one that keeps on giving. Was profound at the time, and still is!
9x39 · 14h ago
The essay was about 10 people who self-selected into an interview study based on online negativity and 'problematic' speech.
Online spaces have always sort of transcended the filters that exist in person. The insulation from individuals' physical identities and body language enables or maybe even causes interesting behaviors that to occur that wouldn't otherwise. We saw this originally in "Deviance in the Dark" from the 70s, but anyone who's had experience with extremely online realms knows this to be the case as well. We even have pop TV shows exploring this phenomenon.
I think what probably would be more interesting is an exploration to what clusters of personalities tend to develop or emerge in virtual worlds, across platforms, etc than attempting to make a research paper out of comments that escaped profanity filters. Come to think of it, a taxonomy of unfiltered speech and its source demographic might be interesting.
atmavatar · 10h ago
I'm fascinated by the amount of abuse the study participants seem to take without doing anything about it (e.g., blocking people, leaving groups, etc.).
Taking one example: were I a healer in a raid, especially one showing top healing numbers, and anyone started off on a slur-filled tantrum against me in voice chat, I'd immediately leave voice chat and the raid. If the response from guild mates was anything but disapproval of the tantrum, or it was allowed to happen more than once, I'd leave the guild.
There are plenty of people/guilds who don't behave like complete assholes to choose from in any online game.
episteme · 7h ago
Unless it's so dramatic that the raid cannot continue without you, it might not make sense.
You put aside your evening to raid with friends, to progress your character or to experience something new that you have maybe worked weeks or months for. Leaving means you get none of that and the other person gets to continue the raid as they like, feeling like they have 'won'.
Even then, you might not know for sure which one of you the group will side with. It's easy to say that there are plenty more fish in the sea but it's not easy to find fish that you actually want to spend time with regularly, even if one or two of them are bad apples.
ddmf · 8h ago
Could be sunk cost fallacy in play - you've maybe spent weeks/months/years with this guild and not had any issues (or it's not been directed at you) - or even a raid night after a few hours, especially if it's been hard for you to get in. Sometimes easier to just weather and ignore the dickhead.
Which is probably why they go on to do it again and again.
I'm sure I remember an addon that allowed you to give feedback on players, but it was quickly used to grief decent players.
carom · 14h ago
It is interesting because there are a large number of players who feel at home in the Call of Duty voice lobbies. Some people's banter and camaraderie is other people's toxicity.
motohagiography · 14h ago
the way guys chirp each other, those aren't slurs, they are intimacy. I'd challenge it a step further and say the people who try to police the language are trying to police and supervise relationships. the critical ideas they use are the lever, but what they are fundamentally lacking is consent and desire.
that view is more than reaction, or backlash, I think we're in a period after one of suppressed volatility, and sublimated desire. my pet theory is that generationally it was much easier for millennials to not be racist because almost none of them drive. in intimate, physically dangerous, or unmediated relationships, these words have no lasting meaning, but in neurotic, artificial, and affected relationships, the words are all they have. the shared intensity of gaming is intimacy. what are slurs to an outsider are terms of affection to someone who is a participant- and not merely a critic.
ryandv · 13h ago
> the way guys chirp each other, those aren't slurs, they are intimacy.
This relies on an antiquated model of bilateral communication that requires both context and intent. Recent [0] developments [1] have demonstrated that neither context nor intent are necessary for establishing the meaning or value judgment of language; "intent and impact are not equivalent" [0], and certain words inherently have (negative) impact, independent of the way in which they are used.
This viewpoint also has the advantage of letting an outsider unilaterally read whatever meaning they want into any words whatsoever, since context and intent are no longer necessary determinants of meaning - only the impact on the audience.
Hence those foreign to gaming culture seeing these words and imposing their own outsider value judgments onto a culture that they are not participants in.
> I'd challenge it a step further and say the people who try to police the language are trying to police and supervise relationships.
Those who speak the policed and controlled tongue will become indistinguishable from LLMs and AI, and will be the first to be competed out of the cognitive marketplace. Forget Worldcoin; so-called "problematic speech" and "perceived-negative behavior" will soon become the only reliable markers of humanity in a dead internet of sanitized LLMs. You cannot build relationships based on sterile language bereft of emotional impact or value.
I am reminded of "the Savage's" climactic conversation with Mustapha Mond in Huxley's Brave New World:
"[...] We flood the whole system with adrenin. It's the complete physiological equivalent of fear and rage. All the tonic effects of murdering Desdemona and being murdered by Othello, without any of the inconveniences."
"But I like the inconveniences."
"We don't," said the Controller. "We prefer to do things comfortably."
"But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin."
> Recent [0] developments [1] have demonstrated that neither context nor intent are necessary for establishing the meaning or value judgment of language;
Necessary, and for establishing to whom, other than the strawmen of your model? I'd recommend a cognitive defrag. rethink it and make it brief and pointful.
ryandv · 12h ago
Just get an LLM to summarize it for you in that case.
Supermancho · 12h ago
> Those who speak the policed and controlled tongue will become indistinguishable from LLMs and AI
This is a strawman. All conversation will become indistinguishable by design, regardless.
BlueTemplar · 14h ago
drive ? (Also, how is this different for zoomers ?)
paulryanrogers · 14h ago
Glad to see folks studying this. I had a friend who loved to gloat and since he always won, it became tiresome. I certainly have my own issues to work out. Yet there is something about bragging and celebrating a win that can feel like salt in the wound.
Once games moved online behaviors like tea-bagging and racist rants really ruined it for me. With cheating and grieving I've just given up on all PvP games, unless I know the other players.
Abuse exists between humans, be it in game environments, or other places. What else is new? As-if such behavior as cherry-picked in this study is not prevalent at home with family members, or at work with colleagues.
This is why you have free will and a choice. You don't like the place you're at and the toxic people yelling at you. Leave. If people stay and take the abuse, does that say something about humans in general or games in particular? Not really, happens everywhere, that is why you have Stockholm Syndrome explained back in the 70s.
eska · 1h ago
A lot of games don’t let you leave such interactions anymore. LAN is removed, split screen is removed, online matchmaking with random team mates and opponents is forced upon you. You will only see the people you played with one time.
alphazard · 13h ago
The use of the word "problematic" tells you everything you need to know about the quality of this research.
beanjuiceII · 13h ago
you can't even /spit on people in the game anymore who the hell wants to play a game like that
thrance · 13h ago
And what is that, exactly?
cosmicgadget · 13h ago
It is a lazy catch-all for things people might take issue with. If the language is obscene, call it obscene. If it is bigoted, call it bigoted.
add-sub-mul-div · 13h ago
Is "bad weather" a lazy catch-all for times when one isn't specifically talking about rain or snow or hail? What makes discussion of a topic at a given level of a taxonomy lazy? Why isn't "obscene" lazy compared to more specifically sexual obscenity or language obscenity?
cosmicgadget · 13h ago
Boy, it sure is bad weathering out there, you had better put on appropriate clothing!
rainonmoon · 8h ago
Great, now even categories are considered woke.
politician · 14h ago
It's good to see that the report identified raiding, and raid leaders in particular, as the principle origin and context of abuse.
Raid leaders are symptomatic of broken game design.
schlipity · 14h ago
> Raid leaders are symptomatic of broken game design.
In just about every sport, the teams have coaches. So no, having leaders do not indicate broken game design.
pvg · 14h ago
Raid leaders are symptomatic of broken game design.
That's 50 dkp minus.
9x39 · 14h ago
Are there any high achieving groups that lack a hierarchy?
squigz · 10h ago
> Raid leaders are symptomatic of broken game design.
https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboa...
Online spaces have always sort of transcended the filters that exist in person. The insulation from individuals' physical identities and body language enables or maybe even causes interesting behaviors that to occur that wouldn't otherwise. We saw this originally in "Deviance in the Dark" from the 70s, but anyone who's had experience with extremely online realms knows this to be the case as well. We even have pop TV shows exploring this phenomenon.
I think what probably would be more interesting is an exploration to what clusters of personalities tend to develop or emerge in virtual worlds, across platforms, etc than attempting to make a research paper out of comments that escaped profanity filters. Come to think of it, a taxonomy of unfiltered speech and its source demographic might be interesting.
Taking one example: were I a healer in a raid, especially one showing top healing numbers, and anyone started off on a slur-filled tantrum against me in voice chat, I'd immediately leave voice chat and the raid. If the response from guild mates was anything but disapproval of the tantrum, or it was allowed to happen more than once, I'd leave the guild.
There are plenty of people/guilds who don't behave like complete assholes to choose from in any online game.
You put aside your evening to raid with friends, to progress your character or to experience something new that you have maybe worked weeks or months for. Leaving means you get none of that and the other person gets to continue the raid as they like, feeling like they have 'won'.
Even then, you might not know for sure which one of you the group will side with. It's easy to say that there are plenty more fish in the sea but it's not easy to find fish that you actually want to spend time with regularly, even if one or two of them are bad apples.
Which is probably why they go on to do it again and again.
I'm sure I remember an addon that allowed you to give feedback on players, but it was quickly used to grief decent players.
that view is more than reaction, or backlash, I think we're in a period after one of suppressed volatility, and sublimated desire. my pet theory is that generationally it was much easier for millennials to not be racist because almost none of them drive. in intimate, physically dangerous, or unmediated relationships, these words have no lasting meaning, but in neurotic, artificial, and affected relationships, the words are all they have. the shared intensity of gaming is intimacy. what are slurs to an outsider are terms of affection to someone who is a participant- and not merely a critic.
This relies on an antiquated model of bilateral communication that requires both context and intent. Recent [0] developments [1] have demonstrated that neither context nor intent are necessary for establishing the meaning or value judgment of language; "intent and impact are not equivalent" [0], and certain words inherently have (negative) impact, independent of the way in which they are used.
This viewpoint also has the advantage of letting an outsider unilaterally read whatever meaning they want into any words whatsoever, since context and intent are no longer necessary determinants of meaning - only the impact on the audience.
Hence those foreign to gaming culture seeing these words and imposing their own outsider value judgments onto a culture that they are not participants in.
> I'd challenge it a step further and say the people who try to police the language are trying to police and supervise relationships.
Those who speak the policed and controlled tongue will become indistinguishable from LLMs and AI, and will be the first to be competed out of the cognitive marketplace. Forget Worldcoin; so-called "problematic speech" and "perceived-negative behavior" will soon become the only reliable markers of humanity in a dead internet of sanitized LLMs. You cannot build relationships based on sterile language bereft of emotional impact or value.
I am reminded of "the Savage's" climactic conversation with Mustapha Mond in Huxley's Brave New World:
[0] https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/pull/2690[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20221219160303/https://itcommuni...
Necessary, and for establishing to whom, other than the strawmen of your model? I'd recommend a cognitive defrag. rethink it and make it brief and pointful.
This is a strawman. All conversation will become indistinguishable by design, regardless.
Once games moved online behaviors like tea-bagging and racist rants really ruined it for me. With cheating and grieving I've just given up on all PvP games, unless I know the other players.
This is why you have free will and a choice. You don't like the place you're at and the toxic people yelling at you. Leave. If people stay and take the abuse, does that say something about humans in general or games in particular? Not really, happens everywhere, that is why you have Stockholm Syndrome explained back in the 70s.
Raid leaders are symptomatic of broken game design.
In just about every sport, the teams have coaches. So no, having leaders do not indicate broken game design.
That's 50 dkp minus.
How so?