Payment Processor Fun 2025 – Making Your Own Merchant Service Provider

134 progval 91 8/16/2025, 3:01:20 PM voidfox.com ↗

Comments (91)

sschueller · 1h ago
The only correct solution is something like the Brasilian pix. No fee paid for by taxes and the central bank just like the management of cash.

A digital alternative to cash offered by the central banks which are the ones responsible to enable financial transactions. Since so many are moving to cashless it is important for the central bank to retain control of the currency alternative to cash.

We can not allow this explosion of middle men all taking a cut of something they should not be part off especially since they now have such power that they decide what you can and cannot buy instead of the laws of the land.

Voultapher · 50m ago
Yep. The EU has also enacted various regulations to enable cheap bank to bank transfers and online payments but pix seems even better - haven't use it though. 3% transaction fees are ridiculous and only possible because Visa/MC have successfully - until now - lobbied against any good alternative in the US.

Privatizing water supply is an awful deal for citizen - ask the UK - since the incentives are anti-consumer and public infrastructure is more often than not a monopoly by definition. I'd count transferring money online as public infrastructure and it should get the same treatment.

sschueller · 14m ago
Switzerland has a huge conflict of interest with the banks and a similar P2P service (TWINT) that isn't free for merchants. This service is owned by the same banks that are supposed to by law implement instant IBAN to IBAN but of course those same banks have added fess to this.
meagher · 1h ago
In 2018, Patreon almost got kicked off of Stripe because Mastercard objected to NSFW content (probably because of PACs and/or “moralizing busybodies”). Patreon booted most of the NSFW creators and OnlyFans scooped them up. OnlyFans is now significantly bigger than Patreon.
FinnKuhn · 55m ago
Just to add to this. OnlyFans also uses Stripe as their payment processor.
jameskilton · 18m ago
To be clear, Stripe is one of multiple payment processors OnlyFans uses. I don't know what the other ones are but they do have a processor that is more favorable for NSFW content, and all related payments go through that/those processors. Safer payments go through Stripe, at least last I checked.
mansa10 · 33m ago
What is the explanation for this? Does it all come down to politics, connections and random chance like iOS app store review differences?
meagher · 11m ago
Bit dated, but from my experience, yes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24291790

meindnoch · 45m ago
And how come the card companies aren't objecting to OnlyFans?
prasadjoglekar · 34m ago
They grew too fast too quickly. Now the gravy train is too yummy to object to from within.
appease7727 · 5m ago
Gravy train might not be the best choice of words, here
elric · 1h ago
American hate for wire transfers will never sound anything other than irrational to me. Why don't you have an equivalent of Europe's Instant Payments?

The author mentions the storefront pocketing the money, that seems implausible? If an unscrupulous storefront can pocket money that would be wired, it could also pocket money that would be paid by CC.

And then there's the weird thing about payment volumes...that's been a solved problem for half a century?

toast0 · 55m ago
US banking has wire transfers, but they cost $15-$40 and can only be reversed with the cooperation of the receiving bank. We use them to transfer large sums of money and for transfers that need to be settled immediately; most often for house purchases where both apply.

We do have ACH (single nightly batch), same day ACH (four? batches throughout the day), and the new FedNow (immediate). But all of those involve providing account numbers and we don't like to provide those. Also, there's not a consistent way to link a payment/debit with an invoice, because memo fields don't necessarily show up with the payment.

Also, credit card purchases can be reversed without the cooperation of the merchant. Most issuers are generous with chargebacks (at least historically). You could take a merchant to court if you did a wire transfer, but that's expensive and time consuming.

thfuran · 51m ago
>American hate for wire transfers will never sound anything other than irrational to me.

I'm assuming "wire transfer" means something different to you than what it means in America. In the US, a wire transfer is when you call up your bank, give them a routing number and account number, tell them to wire however much money to it, agree to pay like $20 or something for the transfer, and then they tell you the transfer will happen tomorrow morning because it's 3:30 PM and the last batch gets handled at 3:00. They're not so much hated as pretty much entirely irrelevant to everyone. I've made one wire transfer in my life, and that was for buying a house.

notpushkin · 2m ago
Wow. I was assuming Americans pay that much for wire transfers (vs ACH) because they are fast?
maccard · 14m ago
We have “faster payments” in EU/UK. You enter a bank account number and sort code, confirm it, and it transfers instantly in 99% of situations. 0 fees, it’s faster than card payments and available to anyone with a bank account. If you want to go down the clearing route you can do CHAPS which is the same as a US wire.
Esophagus4 · 53m ago
I’m going to assume this is a good faith comment, but I encourage you to understand the Europe and the US are different places, with significantly different ecosystems.

I also encourage you to read about Chesterton’s Fence. Make sure you understand why something exists before you think about how to replace it, then maybe you won’t see Americans’ use of credit cards as “irrational,” but instead, reasonable under the circumstances that exist.

That said… the US did roll out FedNow (similar to SEPA) but because the US banking ecosystem is more fragmented, adoption takes a while.

Wire transfers here are expensive and don’t provide consumer benefits (cash back, credit options, consumer protections like fraud and chargeback, or merchant coupons). In your example, if an unscrupulous store pockets the credit card payment, the credit card / issuer will often reimburse your purchase. (This is a law in the US.)

maccard · 18m ago
> In your example, if an unscrupulous store pockets the credit card payment, the credit card / issuer will often reimburse your purchase.

This is true in the EU too. It’d also why you don’t tend to pay for goods and services via transfer unless it’s a very high value item and you have a contract to go alongside it.

palmfacehn · 56m ago
>it could also pocket money that would be paid by CC.

No.

The card processor will return the customer's funds for various reasons. In many cases, "no reason" is sufficient for a chargeback, especially if you are dealing in intangibles, such as software licenses or digital media. In addition to returning the customer's funds, the merchant is typically penalized a "chargeback fee". This means as a merchant, if your chargeback fee is $25 and the product is $5, one chargeback can set you back 6 sales.

For these reasons, as well as other minimum rates, certain price levels are untenable. Consequently, many products are either not sold at all or sold at a much higher price.

The conditions make it more sensible for the merchant to sell high priced items to less troublesome customers. The percentage of the card processor's fees are relatively less. The probability of a chargeback is lower. As you have less customers, you can more easily provide support and contact them directly.

elric · 46m ago
In the case of fraud (like the article's example of a thieving storefront), banks can simply reverse the transfer. This is not an all-or-nothing deal where CCs are always safe because of theoretical chargebacks, and bank transfers are not.

Also: no-reason chargebacks are absolute BS. I worked on a PSP for a largeish adult entertainment business, and I remain convinced that most porn chargebacks are a case of "post nut clarity".

toast0 · 27m ago
> In the case of fraud (like the article's example of a thieving storefront), banks can simply reverse the transfer. This is not an all-or-nothing deal where CCs are always safe because of theoretical chargebacks, and bank transfers are not.

US wire transfers generally can't be reversed --- sometimes, if an error is noted immediately, and the destination bank cooperates, they'll send the money back; but the recipient can pull cash out immediately or wire the funds somewhere else immediately, and then your recourse is through the courts. ACH transactions are like checks; they can be reversed, but only if there was a mistake or they were unauthorized, not because of a service complaint; again, if you have a service problem, recourse is through the courts.

palmfacehn · 37m ago
I'm not sure how that works on the continent for transfers, but with cards or PayPal the chargeback/dispute policies are usually pretty clear. Basically, the merchant is always wrong for even being in the neighborhood of a disputed transaction. If you don't have a signed delivery confirmation for your card-not-present transaction, you're out of luck.
warkdarrior · 27m ago
Banks in US take 30-60 days to review a complaint and maybe reverse a transfer. This means that you don't get your money back for months at a time.
FinnKuhn · 1h ago
While I'm not the biggest fan of crypto overall this is definitely one instance where you could actually use it in a way that makes sense by offering people to pay with it instead. Only issue is converting it afterwards into fiat currency.
kaishiro · 1h ago
That's not actually the only issue, unfortunately. Steam did in fact accept Bitcoin for a while, but it was dropped in 2017, with Newell stating:

> “We had problems when we started accepting cryptocurrencies as a payment option. 50% of those transactions were fraudulent, which is a mind-boggling number. These were customers we didn’t want to have.” [1]

[1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/steam-co-founder-reveals-why-...

Feeble · 1h ago
That's quite interesting, I wonder how they were fraudulent as bitcoin transactions dont have chargebacks etc. In the article they also mention that the price for the game would fluctuate which seems to indicate they actually priced the games in Bitcoin. Normally price would be Euro, USD etc and price conversion to Bitcoin would be done at check out. I guess these were the early days though =)
udev4096 · 1h ago
2017 was definitely not early. Bitcoin gained a lot of traction since 2014
cosmic_cheese · 1h ago
Seems like a catch-22. Crypto can’t be used like legitimate currency because it’s not used like legitimate currency, and fraud can’t be addressed because there’s no regulation and no mechanisms by which to make victims whole.

There are parts of me that can see some appeal in cryptocurrency but I can’t see any way around this, at least not without impacting what made it appealing in the first place.

hippich · 1h ago
While volatility indeed can be a problem (depending on how the whole thing is setup), I fail to come up with scenario of 50% fraudulent transactions... Does anyone have links to more details on what kind of fraud they meant?
buzer · 1h ago
AlienRobot · 1h ago
I think this is the biggest problem with crypto that it will never be able to solve. Every year there are millions of dollars lost in crypto due to scams (the "send me crypto and I'll give you money" kind). The instant you have a digital good people can actually buy with crypto and sell for real money, it becomes a money laundering machine.

Like you could get money from ransomware, buy a ton of games on steam, then sell the account to a third party.

udev4096 · 1h ago
That's a lie. How can you even make a fraudulent bitcoin transaction?
buzer · 1h ago
By spending your coins twice. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30478262
udev4096 · 53m ago
Who in their right mind would not wait for at least 2-3 confirmations before approving the transaction? It sounds like a skill issue
warkdarrior · 23m ago
I, as Steam user, want to pay for and play my game right now, not in 30-60 minutes.
victorbjorklund · 1h ago
Fraudlent is accoriding to the law. If I steal your bitcoin I spend them on Steam it is fraudlent. I know cryptobros think stealing bitcoins are OK and shouldnt count as fraud but law isnt written by cryptobros.
Almondsetat · 1h ago
If you like fake money, we have that already: Steam wallet cards
tonyhart7 · 1h ago
"I'm not the biggest fan of crypto"

You know crypto is mainstream and already here when US president literally launched his own coin

times changes old man

FinnKuhn · 57m ago
None of that has anything to do with me liking it. There are enough things that are mainstream that you probably don't like either.
Shank · 1h ago
I think you really need to make a card that isn’t a Visa or MasterCard or a QR payments system that’s wired to common banks. I don’t think anyone has suggested creating a payment processor without this, because the issue is with Visa/MasterCard, not with the middleman.

I think Valve could actually find a bank to work with to run a QR payments scheme for the gaming industry (SteamPay perhaps?) that’s “topped up” via ACH. Just ignore the whole card part, since it’s online you don’t even need it. Require biometrics and you can make the fraud burden easier.

Of course this would cost a lot of money, but it’s at least in the realm of possible versus a PayFac etc.

tmcz26 · 19m ago
About a month ago this topic came up and I commented this about “just” creating a new Visa: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44611807
c0balt · 1h ago
That was an interesting read. The core issue unfortunately appears to boil down to being a deeply complex of net of trast and risk distribution.

The issue being a "human"/societal problem, instead of technology, makes me wonder if this could be slowly changed over a few generations. The amount of momentum required would be quite high tough.

bob1029 · 1h ago
> In short, just making your own payment processor is hilariously difficult and far beyond the means of Valve let alone Itch. Depending on what the speaker means by "Payment Processor", they may be suggesting making your own bank, or somehow convincing a bank to let Itch shove payments through them; who will eventually do the exact same thing as what happened here. There's no winning play there.

PCI-DSS compliance wasn't even mentioned and it is easily able to overwhelm organizations like Valve and Itch on its own. The hardest part of payment processing is the network. Connecting the acquirers to the issuers in such a way that everyone is happy with the arrangement. Just like the hardest part of the power grid is the transmission infrastructure. The endpoints are far more trivial to replace. If you want to use the existing network, you have to play by all of the rules. The only real way out of this system is to use a completely different kind of currency.

ta12653421 · 14m ago
For shops like Valve only if they need SAQ-D in case they want to store the credit card numbers on their own, I'd say? SAQ-A til SAQ-C is doable for any e-commerce company.
debo_ · 1h ago
I've built a payfac before, and while I think this author is overstating the difficulty of doing so in 2025, I agree that it wouldn't help Valve to do so. We weren't the ones that decided it was too risky to deal with specific merchant categories; our processor did that for us. It wasn't even a discussion. (Nevermind such policies like "all of Puerto Rico is too risky to deal with.")
stego-tech · 1h ago
The solution to this issue is regulation, pure and simple. It doesn’t even have to be a complicated bill, either:

“Financial institutions and financial services providers are barred from blocking, interfering with, restricting, or refusing any consensual transaction that complies with laws regarding content, materials, goods, or services.”

Admittedly in the USA this tees up a 1A case over whether companies have freedom of speech (they shouldn’t), but in other jurisdictions it could be the game changer needed to unshackle commerce from the control of a handful of boardroom puritans and risk-adverse compliance departments. If porn has a high rate of chargebacks, then stop allowing them without a higher burden of proof on the person requesting them, for instance. There’s ample room to enforce accountability on consumers and processors without upending the proverbial produce cart.

dlcarrier · 1h ago
Unfortunately the US has a history of doing the opposite, and using regulation of payment processors to prevent them from allowing some business to operate, when the Constitution doesn't allow the federal government to directly limit those businesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_Internet_Gambling_Enf...
landl0rd · 1h ago
There are two main reasons companies will block types of payments: material downside, like high chargeback risk, and reputational damage. It completely makes sense that certain things should be relegated to working with pmt processors who have structures designed to manage and be compensated for that risk. We shouldn’t socialize those costs onto the processors or, via higher fees, everyone who accepts credit cards. Instead, we should expect the companies who engage in those activities to shoulder their own burdens rather than pushing that risk off to others.
greatgib · 51m ago
Just to be noted, we are in this situation especially because there are a lot of terrible regulation in banking that force them to police every single use of your money or take very big risks.
9dev · 1h ago
Instead of tailoring this to financial service providers, create conditions for essential service operators that must ensure service delivery neutrality. That way, the legislation applies to all kinds of infrastructural services, and you don’t even open up the can of worms that is freedom of speech, since the affected companies don’t get to have a say in who they want to do business with.
stego-tech · 58m ago
For the US specifically (I can’t speak to other countries), that could be an excellent use case for the USPS: digital money orders. Pay with cash or debit card at the post office, claim it back to a bank account. Other postal services could reciprocate/honor those orders in that specific currency (or offer conversion at a publicized daily rate). Since it’s cash only (no credit), it significantly reduces chargebacks - and because it’s through national postal services, it still allows checking/tracking by governments to keep tabs on illicit transactions.

Thing is, that would absolutely be blocked by current payment providers and their lobbyists. I fully agree with you, though.

EDIT: Hah, I’m late to this party. Physical international money orders have already been discontinued by the USPS as of last year and are dwindling globally thanks to FinTech. The lack of a digital equivalent is definitely frustrating, as their flat fees and discretion were rather appealing.

palmfacehn · 42m ago
This is basically Western Union. They have a worldwide network of offices, but I haven't seen an integration for online billing and sales from them. It would be ideal for selling online products to the unbanked or underbanked.
NoahZuniga · 1h ago
> If you're making your own PayFac, you're suddenly responsible for getting and securely storing that information and handing it up to your sponsoring Acquirer. You're also responsible for verifying it, ...

My understanding is that steam already has to do this? Like when I buy a game on steam it goes to steam, who then redistributes the funds to themselves, developer and tax man. Since they are holding the money, are they not defacto already a Payment Facilitator?

ta12653421 · 12m ago
Most of the companies store tokens for CC numbers etc., apart from not beeing allowed to store the number itself, it doesnt bring any good to you since every hacker will be pleased to stop by; If someone is stealing the tokens, they can't use it for much.
Crackula · 1h ago
afaik games are not considered money. and steam points are not considered money either. only withdrawable credits (casinos/online payment apps) are considered as money
Shank · 1h ago
Steam pays developers their cut from sales, which is probably what they’re referring to.
NoahZuniga · 29m ago
Yes, steam isn't holding the customers money, but the developers money.
elevenoh4 · 1h ago
there's an avalanche of money waiting for more competition to Stripe

i've seen too many businesses destroyed by sudden "your account is closed" with no human contact

Keyframe · 1h ago
If it's as difficult as they say it is, how did Stripe do it?
danielmarkbruce · 1h ago
They worked at it for a long time before launch, started with a very narrow product and only had customers they actually knew (reduces fraud a lot), worked like crazy, operated in a market where the competition was abysmal.
danielmarkbruce · 1h ago
There's an avalanche of money waiting for more competition to Nvidia too....

The problem is, many folks have absolutely no comprehension of how difficult it is to build a payment processor that can serve lots of customers they don't personally know. The fraud is just insane. The regulation is insane. The card network rules are insane.

gavinray · 44m ago
I tried to build a SaaS for niche fetish content creators to connect with fans

Got as far as several emails to vendors who all replied they wouldn't facilitate the payments, and saying "Good luck" trying to find one that would

Absolutely stupid system if you ask me.

ta12653421 · 6m ago
There are "dediacated P0rn billing" companies, reach out to them.
palmfacehn · 1h ago
Cryptocurrencies are many different things to different people. Putting aside the speculative mania, the payment processor problem is one of the main problems private cryptocurrencies solve.

Stablecoins are not without issues, but they've largely solved the problem of price volatility. Objections around issuance and backing might be raised, but this is more interesting for trading and less relevant for merchant transactions.

Yes, there are no chargebacks with cryptocurrencies. This is an advantage for the merchant. Before anyone goes off the deep end here, let's recall the context of the discussion: one time payments to reputable merchants for trivial amounts. Game purchases do not require life changing amounts of currency to change hands. Steam and Itch are well known brands.

So what is left to object to? My impression is that there is excessive cultural and political baggage.

From the article:

>Capitalism sucks. The economic ecosystem sucks. People unrelated to transactions in any way except "They have the tech to facilitate them" deciding that entire industries don't get to make money and feed their staff because "It's risky to handle these payments" suck. That these entities can also be attacked by PACs and shamed into being the morality police sucks.

...

>But I still hate crypto.

Note that even though the author correctly observes the high regulatory overhead and political, non-market forces, they still manage to blame "Capitalism".

throwanem · 1h ago
So Valve buys Itch cheap in a year or two?
udev4096 · 1h ago
> Crypto: lmao

What is that supposed to even mean? There is no central authority. You are your own bank. Grow up, POW is necessary to keep the network secure

scyclow · 27m ago
> POW is necessary to keep the network secure

It's certainly a way to keep the network secure. At best it's marginally better than POS. At worst, it's a ticking time bomb security budget cliff.

thunderfork · 54m ago
The actual experience of actually selling or buying actual things with crypto is nearly untenable, and doesn't actually free you from all the legal requirements that make payfac hard