> During a group date, my date's friend wanted to go to a bar. He asked if I could get in without ID because he didn't think I was living here legally. One moment I felt like I belonged with them. The next, I was reminded that I'm not really part of the group. It made me sad to hear that question.
I'm not sure what type of self-hatred this is. Someone wants to go to a bar, unsure of the legal status of another, color plays a factor but we know nothing about their socioeconomic status or if this writer is in California, the friend of the date asks not as if he is looking for something to get the writer on but rather to make sure they won't have issues.
This does not imply anything about his opinions of the writer, and seeing how he is ok with the writer's presence I doubt that this is an issue of "patriotism", it's a legal concern.
Patriotism in America is about uniting under the flag and it's values; it's not about if you are a certain color. There's a reason why we have American patriots of all races; you don't really see that too often in other places. If you don't have those values, then you aren't one of us, that's what patriotism is by definition in this country and our context.
invalidOrTaken · 6m ago
No, this is insane. I will make a thousand people uncomfortable on group dates if that's what it takes to have an actual country.
Are people hurt? Are things unfair? Would it be kinder and more humane if we could see each others' souls, and trust prevailed? Absolutely.
But we can not. And there is an asymmetry to civilization---it is easier to destroy than to build. This makes division (other names: protection, safeguarding, immune system, comment moderation) practical and essential. Do you want your startup's bank account "united and standing together" with some other startup's bank account? Division allows good things to remain good.
None of this is to say all gatekeepers are honest, all standards are fair, or that injustice doesn't exist. Everything is a work in progress. But if the worst you have to complain about is an inconsequential misunderstanding on a group date, count yourself lucky.
PaulHoule · 31m ago
To the contrary internationalist left movements have failed to appreciate that nationalistic feeling means something to people and you wind up with own goals like
It's not like you have a choice between nationalism and enlightmentment, anomie is a likely outcome too.
nielsbot · 15m ago
I more read it as blind patriotism is limiting.
catigula · 16m ago
>There are groups I'm not part of. This makes me sad. I want to be part of those groups.
Yes, but that inherently dilutes the very conception of a group. This is pretty basic stuff. Groups must be exclusive or they have no meaning.
I understand this will make some people sad and, unfortunately, that's okay.
It makes me sad that I will never be Japanese. What a beautiful country. Man, am I sad. But that's alright, isn't it?
_def · 3m ago
Is it alright? Do you live in Japan? Otherwise this comparison is pointless.
catigula · 1m ago
Why? The premise of the post is that we're all world citizens.
Why does it matter where I live?
I need only simply desire to live somewhere and be something and my wish should be granted lest I be sad, which the Japanese must obviously take very, very seriously. They must ensure I am not sad.
In fact, the comparison is even more apt because it becomes more obviously absurd.
tevon · 16m ago
To me, Nationalism and Patriotism mean different things.
At least to me:
Patriotism: the belief in the ideals of your country, in its people and its ability to strive towards that ideal state.
Nationalism: A strong identity tied to ones nation as it exists today (or in the past) at the exclusion of others or other thought
nielsbot · 13m ago
I agree with your definition, but I don't think the author is using "patriotism" literally this way.
cozyman · 21m ago
the author sounds like an incel, just replace women with america.
_def · 6m ago
Both topic complexes are about structural societal problems, yes. So called "incels" suffer from toxic masculinity traits/roles and the pressure that comes out of that; a similar, but much more out of control suffering happens for people with immigration history and nationalism.
nielsbot · 14m ago
Are you saying not being able to relate to woman well is the same as being made to feel like an outsider?
PaulHoule · 8m ago
It's a condition that can make one feel like an outsider.
I'm not sure what type of self-hatred this is. Someone wants to go to a bar, unsure of the legal status of another, color plays a factor but we know nothing about their socioeconomic status or if this writer is in California, the friend of the date asks not as if he is looking for something to get the writer on but rather to make sure they won't have issues. This does not imply anything about his opinions of the writer, and seeing how he is ok with the writer's presence I doubt that this is an issue of "patriotism", it's a legal concern.
Patriotism in America is about uniting under the flag and it's values; it's not about if you are a certain color. There's a reason why we have American patriots of all races; you don't really see that too often in other places. If you don't have those values, then you aren't one of us, that's what patriotism is by definition in this country and our context.
Are people hurt? Are things unfair? Would it be kinder and more humane if we could see each others' souls, and trust prevailed? Absolutely.
But we can not. And there is an asymmetry to civilization---it is easier to destroy than to build. This makes division (other names: protection, safeguarding, immune system, comment moderation) practical and essential. Do you want your startup's bank account "united and standing together" with some other startup's bank account? Division allows good things to remain good.
None of this is to say all gatekeepers are honest, all standards are fair, or that injustice doesn't exist. Everything is a work in progress. But if the worst you have to complain about is an inconsequential misunderstanding on a group date, count yourself lucky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk
It's not like you have a choice between nationalism and enlightmentment, anomie is a likely outcome too.
Yes, but that inherently dilutes the very conception of a group. This is pretty basic stuff. Groups must be exclusive or they have no meaning.
I understand this will make some people sad and, unfortunately, that's okay.
It makes me sad that I will never be Japanese. What a beautiful country. Man, am I sad. But that's alright, isn't it?
Why does it matter where I live?
I need only simply desire to live somewhere and be something and my wish should be granted lest I be sad, which the Japanese must obviously take very, very seriously. They must ensure I am not sad.
In fact, the comparison is even more apt because it becomes more obviously absurd.
At least to me:
Patriotism: the belief in the ideals of your country, in its people and its ability to strive towards that ideal state.
Nationalism: A strong identity tied to ones nation as it exists today (or in the past) at the exclusion of others or other thought