> On the other hand, life was secure. There were no bank loans, therefore there were no bank fees or percents. There was no real worry over one’s job or workplace; one was available for everyone. Wages were low, but fear of losing one’s job was almost nonexistent. A person pretended to work; the state pretended to pay him. Living accommodations were crowded and faint hope existed to find a better apartment, but all had a roof over their heads.There had to be, since homelessness was forbidden by law.
> Nowadays, there exist people who yearn for that mollusk-like life.
This isn't an inaccurate description, and yes, it's not exactly a utopian state to find yourself in.
But I'm not going to chuckle at the hypothetical people we're supposed to pity for wanting this; I bet there are quite a few people in the United States alone who would love to have this life, who would love to have a guaranteed job, a guaranteed roof over their heads, and the heads of their children.
sedawkgrep · 5h ago
> I bet there are quite a few people in the United States alone who would love to have this life, who would love to have a guaranteed job, a guaranteed roof over their heads, and the heads of their children.
I'd almost venture to say the majority of people, and definitely those who suffer from a disability of some sort; especially mental health, where one may not mentally function well enough from one day to the next to be able to reliably hold a job.
H8crilA · 3h ago
The problem is you'll probably live on something like $300/month, and the $ won't even be exchangeable internationally - think like food stamps but for everything. Or less. Unless you have connections in the nomenklatura, i.e. those who decide who gets which positions. University admission is handled by a similar circle.
Let me quote the text:
> An anecdote on this very topic became popular in the later Soviet Union. A young communist proclaimed victoriously: “We have founded a society where there are no rich people!” To which an old social democrat shook his head and muttered, “Actually our intention was to found a society were there were no poor people.”
Mars008 · 3h ago
> We have founded a society where there are no rich people!”
Many in the west would like this idea. Try goggle "communism support young americans".
inglor_cz · 3h ago
People in general love utopias when they weren't exposed to their real incarnations.
Same with the RETVRN types who dream of an ancient-like societal structure without realizing that they would likely be slaves.
Nevermark · 49m ago
This is like hardcore libertarians, anarchy-capitalists. If they were dropped into a stateless (failed state) area, where they would have complete formal sovereignty, any but the super wealthy (who could afford private security, water and food quality systems, etc.), would soon leave, become impoverished, or die tragically at the behest of other legally unencumbered "self-sovereign" actors.
The excuses they might make, that libertarianism requires some basically supportive context (provided by who? and in what system?) to get off the ground, also undermine the arguments of the hard-independent individual crowd.
(I happen to think that "libertarianism" is a fruitful collection of ideas and insights, but in the context of many other systems with complementary ideas and insights. On a practical level, we need the best of many systems working together.)
dlachausse · 3h ago
That is terrifying. Do they just not teach in schools how devastating every Marxist/Communist regime has been? Do people really think somehow that next time will magically be different despite all historical evidence pointing to the fact that this ideology is flawed at its very core?
throwaway3060 · 2h ago
Not in any detail. In my experience, Americans actually know very little about the Soviet Union, beyond that they were the "adversary" in the Cold War.
ahazred8ta · 1h ago
In the US, most history and social studies classes are "taught" by football coaches. Most students don't retain anything important.
ben_w · 2h ago
> Do they just not teach in schools how devastating every Marxist/Communist regime has been?
Even if they do, when you're living somewhere that's free to fail you before you're even born, the second-worst case can still look good. And also the absolute worse case is Pol Pot, and there's many examples equally awful showing that a lot of people just flat out refuse to accept humans can be that evil.
But also, basically all types of governments can demonstrate the sorts of failure mode that Communism is famous for. Holodomor and Great Leap Forward's famines were Communist failures, the Irish Potato Famine and several in India under the British were Capitalist failures.
> the fact that this ideology is flawed at its very core?
You may be surprised if you read a copy of The Communist Manifesto. Several parts of it have been considered "common sense" in capitalist nations for over a century.
Me, I think Karl Marx made the same error as Adam Smith, that both think humans free from rules are naturally amazing and they largely ignore power seeking behaviours and the consequences of that. Hence Smith is associated with laissez-faire, and "socialist" and "anarchist" were seen by the authorities of the 19th c. as being much the same*.
(I over simplify a bit, this is just a comment and not a script for a replacement idiology).
Irish potato famine wasn't a failure of capitalism. That is communist apologetics. The Holodomor was an entirely artificial famine caused by communist policies. Potato famine was caused by blight, a natural virus, and Irelands inability to handle the situation.
The usual claim that potato famine was a failure of capitalism is something like claiming that Britain should have supplied even more aid than they did, despite them doing quite communistic things like organizing massive public works programmes that employed half a million people, and providing so much aid it caused a financial panic.
So these situations aren't comparable.
Marxism and Smith are likewise not the same. Smith wrote a description of the world as he saw it. Marx wrote a description (sort of) of the world as he wanted it to be. Marxism wasn't similar to anarchism or laissez-faire economics either. Although he liked to claim that communism would eventually become a kind of utopian anarchy free of all constraints, he also insisted that getting there would require a dictatorship of the proletariat first. Actual anarcho-socialists like Mikhail Bakunin correctly pointed out that this was incoherent because once such a totalitarian state was established it would never dissolve itself.
graemep · 1h ago
Adam Smith did nit think that. He warned about the danger of business “conspiracy against the public” and thought ethics more important afield than economics. The idea the invisible hand was perfectible is a amplification of his idea
dlachausse · 2h ago
I've read The Communist Manifesto. There are indeed parts of it that are sensible in isolation. The problem is that taken as a whole, Marxism, Leninism, Maoism, etc. are deeply flawed ideologies doomed to catastrophic failure and devastating results. History has shown us this repeatedly.
To Quote Ronald Reagan...
“How do you tell a Communist? Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin.”
ben_w · 1h ago
What history has shown us is somewhat weaker than you say — for all the stuff they did badly, for all that they wildly missed their own raison d'être and became just another power structure for just another bunch of essentially aristocrats, it did also get Russia from the Tzars to orbit in 40 years.
But that aside, when you're already getting failed and the people failing you specifically hate one thing, it's very easy to reach for that thing.
To your quote: Well, I'm not a communist (unlike a previous partner)… but I'm also not a capitalist, because I see that capitalism also is a deeply flawed ideology doomed to catastrophic failure and devastating results, and that history has shown us this, too, repeatedly.
I'm also not "anti-" either of them, because I'd rather see someone take the best of both and find some new mechanism to deal with the other repeatedly observed historical fact: that a non-trivial fraction of the population are power-hungry sadistic arses. To quote, albeit from fiction: "To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." - https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/2416-the-major-problem-mdas...
(Both capitalism and communism have failure modes separate from the problem of dark triad personalities, but both sets are much easier to deal with if your society has also solved the problem of dark triad personalities, and a society does also need to solve the problem of dark triad personalities irregardless of what else it does).
scarecrowbob · 2h ago
I mean, yes, in Texas for instance that kind of propaganda is state mandated.
dlachausse · 2h ago
I guess maybe the blue cities push the Marxism/Communism propaganda, but I don’t think the rest of the state does.
Mars008 · 2h ago
I think this is the result of woke shit pushed in education.
rcakebread · 1h ago
More like MAGA rewriting US Soviet relations history.
Mars008 · 1m ago
Looks like today most people don't trust both sides. Some choose to ride one wave or another.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF · 1h ago
It's predictable backlash against the US whitewashing a lot of history. People are skeptical of the official narratives and do their own research
gambiting · 1h ago
>>University admission is handled by a similar circle.
So obviously I welcome any anecdotes to the contrary, but I was always told that in my formely communist country(Poland) university admissions were extremely fair. Everyone had equal chance if they passed exams well enough - in fact messing around with this system was guaranteed to get you in prison for corruption. And in there were many examples of poor families from very disadvantaged backgrounds sending kids to top universities because they studied hard enough to pass the entrance exams - there was no bribe you could give anyone to get you in, because the principles of fair admissions were upheld as the greatest value. I'm sure there are examples of it happening that we could find, but my understanding is that it was incredibly rare.
Now, top posts at universities - that's a different situation. To be the dean you had to be in the party and know the right people to be considered for the position. But students? Anyone could get anywhere and study completely for free.
throwaway3060 · 1h ago
I don't know about Poland, but within the USSR, a Jewish person would be unable to go to a good university without paying a bribe (which for many families was beyond their means). Jewish applicants would get a different set of test questions that would be nearly impossible to solve.
m4rtink · 1h ago
The main issue was not the general admission being itself corrupt (though I can't imagine you could not get a top party member child in if you wanted).
The main issue was that anyone the state was not comfortable with was banned from higher education, including their children.
Have any connection to the pre-communist politics, be involved in religion, be reported by your neighbors as speaking against the regime or just got in the way of someone i power - congratulation comrade, you and your children (regardless of how gifted) are now second class, can't go to university & are relegated to second class jobs, for ever!
And this basically applied to everything the communist state could miss-use to award or punish people - jobs, internal and foreign travel, housing, being able to do art or write books, etc.
And any time the single party that could never do any wrong decided to punish you - there was no recourse.
inglor_cz · 3h ago
You underestimate the inability of the Soviet regime to provide its own people with basic consumer goods.
You would have a job and some money, but your money would buy nothing, because goods were scarce. Even finding good shoes would be a challenge and you would need to cultivate relationships with warehouse clerks etc. to get some access to stuff before it was stealthily distributed by underground channels to relatives, friends etc.
Modern Americans would go absolutely ballistic if they came to a shop with empty shelves and a bored arrogant assistant who would jeer at their very question "I want to buy X".
pavel_lishin · 2h ago
> Modern Americans would go absolutely ballistic if they came to a shop with empty shelves and a bored arrogant assistant who would jeer at their very question "I want to buy X".
Reminds me of an old Russian joke. In stores, you'd typically go to one counter to get some produce weighed, then to a cashier to pay for it.
So, someone goes up to the meat counter, and asks, "Can you weigh me out half a kilo of sausage?" And the guy behind the counter replies: "Sure, bring some in, and I'll weigh it out for you."
inglor_cz · 1h ago
Yeah, the old jokes are first class.
"Capitalism is based on exploitation of a man by another man. In Communism, it is the other way round!"
01HNNWZ0MV43FF · 1h ago
America is very egalitarian these days, even the rich women are empowered to exploit the poor women!
No comments yet
spwa4 · 4h ago
At the cost that the Soviet union imposed? I doubt there's even 100.
There is nothing stopping people from living like communists in the US. There have been many communist communes here and in other countries, like famously Israel and Columbia. All but single digits have been abandoned or sold by their inhabitants.
So we've got plenty of historical evidence whether people would choose to have this life. All but a few dozen, out of hundreds of million, choose against it. Including all socialists, everyone in those demonstrations, ... demonstrating extremely clearly:
without constant terror, socialism cannot exist.
AlecSchueler · 3h ago
> There is nothing stopping people from living like communists in the US.
Capitalism stops them. The state has expectations of everyone. They will have to deal with things from outside that will force them into some level of capitalistic thinking which will ultimately eat the project from within.
> All but single digits have been abandoned or sold by their inhabitants.
The fact that the death of these experiments comes with a sale is illustrative of the point above
> without constant terror, socialism cannot exist.
Is that so? It sounds like red scare propaganda honestly, and I don't think you could reasonably make an argument for this without conceding that the same is true of capitalism.
spwa4 · 2h ago
> Capitalism stops them. The state has expectations of everyone. They will have to deal with things from outside that will force them into some level of capitalistic thinking which will ultimately eat the project from within.
This is not a difference between capitalism and communism, and so not a valid complaint. You will pay taxes in a communist system. You will have to deal with all sorts of external influences in a communist system.
> The fact that the death of these experiments comes with a sale is illustrative of the point above
No it isn't. These were voluntary sales (especially since most were abandoned, not sold. There was no profit in leaving, except in some cases). It is illustrative of the simple fact that given the choice, all but a rare exception chooses against communism.
Or to put it another way: people REALLY don't want communism, and after trying it, that becomes worse. In many cases abandoning these communes required a large-ish group of people taking the decision together. In other words: they organized themselves to destroy their little patch of communism. Which illustrates the next point:
> > without constant terror, socialism cannot exist.
> Is that so? It sounds like red scare propaganda honestly, and I don't think you could reasonably make an argument for this without conceding that the same is true of capitalism.
You just made an argument in favor of this. Your argument is that people cannot be allowed to have access to the external world, or they will abandon communism. That must be prevented, in your argument.
HOW will you prevent it? State terror.
search_facility · 1h ago
They definitely does not aware of soviet reality that “roof over head” usually is not in the place where human want to live, same with job. if student after university decided (not by student, by state distributing workforce) to go work at city on polar circle - that means that student will go live and work here, without sunlight for the rest of his life! not joking, personal story with soviet collapse as happy ending (moved to normal place after that)
ponector · 4h ago
>> This isn't an inaccurate description,
That is quite inaccurate. Or partially accurate. Accurate for white russian people.
For others it was quite easy to loose a job and get a forced psychiatric treatment or gulag trip (depends on the year).
throwaway3060 · 3h ago
I assume by "white Russian" you really mean someone of Russian ethnicity and not Belarus - which is what that phrase means to a Russian speaker - but you might want to clarify.
ponector · 2h ago
Yes. White male with Slavic face who speaks russian language without an accent because he knows no other language.
A friend of mine had a grandfather, who was born in central Asia (Samarkand) had Ukrainian parents, but also had written in his passport that he was a russian. Soviets erased his roots, history, ethnicity. He never spoke Ukrainian in his life.
Btw, that is what current russian government is doing. They have stolen thousands of Ukrainian kids and erased their identity. Few more years and some of them are ready to be sent to the frontline.
gambiting · 1h ago
Plenty of stories of people being forced to "voluntarily" accept Russian passports on the territories occupied by Russia in Ukraine too.
shakow · 3h ago
I have never seen an english speaker use “white Russians” for Belarusians – the only uses I know of this idiom are (i) for the non-red/non-green participants to the Russian civil war, and, by extensions, their diaspora, and (ii) the cocktail, which of course, is by far the most common occurence nowadays.
Many of the Russian speakers I know do this when speaking English - I'm guessing that's how they think of the phrase in Russian and want to translate it literally.
riehwvfbk · 4h ago
The matters of race occupy a much smaller percentage of the brains of people outside of the USA. I say this completely without malice. It simply means that the trauma of segregation is still too raw in American society.
The rest of your statement doesn't make any sense. One went to a gulag for opposing the Soviet government, not for having a particular ethnicity. Stalin was ethnically Georgian. Many prominent members of the politburo were Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, or Jews. In the later Soviet Union there were many politicians from the "ethnic" republics who had high-powered careers.
In fact, look at the list of Russian politicians who are currently under international sanctions and tell me with a straight face that they are all white and Russian. Well, they are Russian of course, but not in the way you meant.
pavel_lishin · 3h ago
> The matters of race occupy a much smaller percentage of the brains of people outside of the USA. I say this completely without malice.
But do you say it with first-hand experience?
Having gone back to Russia to meet with relatives, it was very clear that they considered "Tajiks" to be somewhere below them on a social ladder, and one relative directly inquired whether I felt safe living in America with all the "Africans" living in New York. (Granted, that last statement could back up your point that it only matters in America - but it didn't feel that way at the time.)
m4rtink · 1h ago
I think this might have changed for the worst since the soviet times (or at least is now less covert ?). IIRC when someone interviewed one of the warlords from Chechnya he mentioned he would probably be a high ranking officer in the soviet military by this point if the soviet union still exiated. With this no longer being possible, they ended up doing other things.
ponector · 2h ago
And don't forget Jews. Jews have always been the number one to be hated by common tovarish, as well as modern russians.
AnthonyMouse · 3h ago
> It simply means that the trauma of segregation is still too raw in American society.
It feels more calculated than that -- there are people trying to keep it alive for use as a partisan wedge issue.
Replace first past the post voting (and therefore the two-party system) with score voting and see what happens to the issue.
esseph · 2h ago
There have been a ton of states passing laws, starting in 2022 but really hitting stride in 2024/2025, where the Republican party has pushed laws or changes to state constitutions to prevent Ranked Choice Voting.
Example, in Missouri there was a ballot initiative called Amendment 7. The first part of the Amendment was to enshrine banning non-citizens from voting. I want to be clear, this was already against state law. This didn't change anything.
The second part of Amendment 7 was to ban ranked choice voting and require a plurality. That was the REAL intent of the Amendment.
Right, no etnic cleansing, no mass starvation of etnic non-russian regions. No forced deportations to the Syberia.
No one of mentioned high ranks could freely use native language.
You probably know how they called USSR the prison of nations.
kachurovskiy · 5h ago
Just so that you understand, what that inevitably brings is alcoholism, domestic violence and other depressive deformities. My grandpa died from daily drinking with his factory pals and my grand-grandma has axe damage on her wooden furniture and it was normal.
pavel_lishin · 3h ago
I'm sorry about your family history, but I have American friends who've grown up here for generations with identical family histories - alcoholism, domestic violence, depressive deformities and all.
cosmicgadget · 4h ago
We have more options for hobbies these days.
LtWorf · 3h ago
And farmers under the tzar had it better in your opinion?
SoftTalker · 4h ago
Not if that guarantee came with some miserable factory job that was mandatory.
cosmicgadget · 4h ago
Most parents would.
pavel_lishin · 3h ago
Yeah. I've had friends who went unemployed for a long time because they considered themselves to be above certain jobs. Me? If my kid needs food, the burger at the local McDonald's is gonna look very flippable real quick.
SoftTalker · 57m ago
And if you’re halfway serious and reliable you’ll get promoted into management pretty quickly and that gets you benefits.
gambiting · 1h ago
My understanding is that most of these jobs you could just slack off at and nothing would happen. They couldn't really fire you anyway.
justsomejew · 3h ago
I dont know how your life is, but my own impression is that life of many americans is worse than the life which was in the Soviet Union at least until the 80s (after Stalin). Maybe not in the sense of the capacity to buy junkfood and other junk, but as to sense of living and human relations. "Mollusk" sounds as the usual american antirussian propaganda.
throwaway3060 · 2h ago
Unless you are limiting your comparison to just the homeless in America, this is just not true. Most people don't know much about life in the Soviet Union in the first place, but even what people do know is typically limited only to life in Moscow and Leningrad. Dismissing the conditions as "capacity to buy junkfood" is uncalled for.
saubeidl · 4h ago
The descriptor "mollusk-like" for people that have different political or social preferences from the author is really dehumanizing and not okay.
pavel_lishin · 3h ago
> really dehumanizing
Yes. That was the author's point.
logical_proof · 4h ago
I think you missed the metaphors target. He was describing the lifestyle of just subsisting. Like a mollusk. This was objectively the majority of experiences under the Soviet system, not a comment on anyone’s political views.
justsomejew · 3h ago
And I think you missed something as well
matheusmoreira · 4h ago
> But I'm not going to chuckle at the hypothetical people we're supposed to pity for wanting this
We should.
What communists really want is to have their every need and desire magically provided for, as if they were fundamental rights. In other words, what they truly want is called post-scarcity: the absence of an economy.
Communism and socialism are economic models. There exists scarcity of goods and resources and therefore they must be economized. There's a system that chooses who gets access to said scarce resources.
Socialism is sold to people as
though it was post-scarcity. People think they'd be living comfortable "secure" lives where everything is guaranteed and provided for. Ah yes, the fabled memetic fully automated luxury space communism.
People who buy into this will probably end up doing forced hard labor in a field somewhere should communists actually come to power. They will not get to do what they want, they will work wherever the state puts them to work under penalty of death by firing squad. The state has no choice, anything else means mass starvation and millions of deaths.
Pity is far too lenient a reaction towards such reality distorting naïveté. If left unchecked, they will win elections and actually install socialism in your country.
We have a better chance of achieving post scarcity by collapsing capitalism with relentless automation.
only-one1701 · 4h ago
Idk the Nordics seem to be doing ok
LtWorf · 2h ago
They aren't. They're becoming fascist like the rest of EU.
matheusmoreira · 4h ago
Nordic countries are not socialist regimes. They are free economies with welfare states. Socialism implies state control of the economy, industry and the means of production.
inglor_cz · 3h ago
In the Nordics, the governments don't really try to run the economy. They provide stable environment to their local capitalists, let them do business at their leisure, and then tax their profits.
That is a huge difference from the mass experiment with central-command economy that was run in the countries of the Soviet Bloc. Unsurprisingly, ideologues and bureaucrats cannot really create and sustain a competitive economy. That requires a different sort of mentality.
dismalaf · 4h ago
They're not socialist by the classical definition. They're capitalist countries with social benefits.
animal_spirits · 3h ago
And then, these strong social safety nets seem to only work well in countries that have highly homogenous populations.
username332211 · 5h ago
The really funny part is that this is probably fairly easy to achieve in the United States. The only part of the Soviet system you'd need to implement is the migration and residency control regime.
Currently people all over the world are free to move to New York, which makes the city unaffordable. If you forbade anyone not born within it from moving there, Manhattan would be fairly affordable and homelessness would be much reduced.
All you need to do is to free yourself from that bourgeois delusion that a man from Mexico (or worse, West Virginia) has any right to live in that city.
vintagedave · 5h ago
> The only part of the Soviet system you'd need to implement is the migration and residency control regime.
Ouch: straight to being against others.
No, the part you'd need to implement to get socialised housing is socialised housing. Similarly, there are modern equivalents to guaranteed jobs. Communism believed everyone had to work: today we have different ideas of purpose than Marx had, plus are more aware of those who cannot work, or the value of non-work social contributions, and tech folks like us might believe in or hope for an upcoming post-scarcity society, with a transition period of UBI.
I expect you want to control migration and residency in order to avoid freeloaders. Freeloaders are remarkably rare, most people have self-respect and enjoy being productive, and interestingly systems that exterminate freeloaders entirely tend to be less efficient.[1] Plus, if you have a wonderful system, the best way to handle other people wanting it is to help it grow, not limit it to yourself. A better policy would be one encouraging its growth elsewhere in other countries where all those folk who are coming to your shores are coming from. The US has a long (mixed) history of that approach re democracy.
What freeloaders are you talking about? This is complete nonsense.
Residency controls exist to solve the Economic Problem. The amount of people that want to live in global cities is endless. Even if you socialize all the housing in New York, there will be people that want to live in the city but won't be able to. It is the job of the economic system to determine who gets in and who doesn't.
That's why socialized housing requires residency controls, but if those were implemented in the United States, the country could reap the specified benefits of of the Soviet system.
Finally, you speak of encouraging growth elsewhere, but what can be more productive for the growth of West Virginia, than to tell every man born in that state that he shall also die in that state. What can be better for industrial development, but a labor force that can't move away?
It's so sad to see communists cling to capitalist concepts like that. Communism has no future so long as it's supporters refuse to understand that Marx's magnificent philosophical and political system rejects borgeous human rights.
AnthonyMouse · 3h ago
> Residency controls exist to solve the Economic Problem. The amount of people that want to live in global cities is endless.
That isn't true. There are a finite number of living people and if you just kept building housing in every major city, there would be enough for everyone who wants to live there.
It might not be practical to build enough housing in one city to house the entire global population, but who is proposing that anyway? Build more housing everywhere.
> Finally, you speak of encouraging growth elsewhere, but what can be more productive for the growth of West Virginia, than to tell every man born in that state that he shall also die in that state. What can be better for industrial development, but a labor force that can't move away?
By implication you would also have an inability to import labor. And then if you don't e.g. have a local medical school, you don't have local doctors. If you have the local environment to sustain a major industry and a local population that could do 90% of the jobs, but the other 10% are specialists who would have to be paid to relocate then it can't open up there at all and you lose the other 90% of the jobs too.
Suppose you have a mining town somewhere until the mine is exhausted. What are the people who used to live there supposed to do other than move away? There is nothing there for them anymore.
username332211 · 2h ago
> That isn't true. There are a finite number of living people and if you just kept building housing in every major city, there would be enough for everyone who wants to live there.
That's sort of of neither here nor there. Sure, it's probably true, but try explaining that to anyone who hates bourgeois democracy. "If only we let the greedy property developers have it their way."
But the point that I'm trying to get across here with no small amount of irony (that I hope is fairly obvious), is that all the benefits of living in a communist dictatorship come from the dictatorship, not from the communism. Collectivized agriculture, state industries, socialized housings - all those things are worse than useless. What provided safety, stability and a guaranteed standard of life was the semi-serfdom imposed by the state.
> By implication you would also have an inability to import labor. And then if you don't e.g. have a local medical school, you don't have local doctors. If you have the local environment to sustain a major industry and a local population that could do 90% of the jobs, but the other 10% are specialists who would have to be paid to relocate then it can't open up there at all and you lose the other 90% of the jobs too.
The Soviet system did allow for movement. When a factory was opened and had to be staffed, permits were issued for the necessary people. In fact that was the only significant way for people from rural areas to be allowed the privilege to move to a city. Similarly, the problem with doctors was dealt with rather elegantly - every graduate of a medical school was assigned a specific town or village and was forced to live and practice there for decades.
The Soviet Union didn't abolish the movement of people. In fact, in the 1940s it was probably something of a champion in terms of internal migration. It's the freedom of movement that was abolished.
Reasoning · 4h ago
> Communism has no future so long as it's supporters refuse to understand that Marx's magnificent philosophical and political system rejects borgeous human rights.
Stalin couldn't have put it better himself.
saubeidl · 4h ago
That's not true and the City of Vienna proved that thesis wrong a century ago. [0].
Even today, two-thirds of Viennese residents live in public housing, the city is Europe's largest landlord and as a result, housing is extremely affordable for a world-class city. It's not without reason that Vienna tends to top worldwide quality of life rankings - it's the achievements of Red Vienna.
The city of Vienna has a fairly unique history. It used to be the capital of a massive empire that's now gone, and thus suffered a period of fairly prolonged decline.
It's population declined from 2.4 million in 1914[1] to 1.5 million in the 1980s[2]. The only reason why it's currently considered even close to a world-class city is that after the fall of the Berlin wall it was the natural financial hub for oligarchic capital.
I think we can all agree not many great and global cities have tons of free housing emptied by a prolonged period of decline. And that we can't really evaluate if the city is solving the economic problem well or badly, as right now it's simply less acute for historical reasons that have nothing to do with it's housing policy.
> I think we can all agree not many great and global cities have tons of free housing emptied by a prolonged period of decline
That is not the case in Vienna, either. The government built enough units to supply ten percent of the total market and used that leverage to drive down prices. Before that, a large portion lived in squalor.
> But from 1923 to 1934, in a period known as Red Vienna, the ruling Social Democratic Party built 64,000 new units in 400 housing blocks, increasing the city’s housing supply by about 10 percent. Some 200,000 people, one-tenth of the population, were rehoused in these buildings, with rents set at 3.5 percent of the average semiskilled worker’s income, enough to cover the cost of maintenance and operation
pavel_lishin · 3h ago
> It is the job of the economic system to determine who gets in and who doesn't.
Isn't that the point of capitalism? If you can afford to live in New York, you do. If you can't, you don't.
xyzelement · 5h ago
I was about 10 when the USSR has collapsed and have lived in the use for over 30 years yet I still see in my parents and even myself the remnants of dehumanizing ridiculousness that existed there. Eg my dad is instinctively terrified of dealing with anyone from the government even like the mailman because that person can wield their position against you even though that's not the case here at all.
Or for example I had to point out to my dad that his neighbor open carries. Like my dad is intellectually aware of the 2nd amendment but it didn't fit in his brain that people could actually exercise a freedom so his eyes were literally blind to it (obviously I drove him to the gun shop that evening)
pavel_lishin · 5h ago
> (obviously I drove him to the gun shop that evening)
Why would that be obvious?
Mars008 · 3h ago
> intellectually aware of the 2nd amendment but it didn't fit in his brain that people could actually exercise a freedom
You know what the reality is in US? Even close friends don't talk on sensitive topics. At work only woke propaganda is allowed, woke training (brainwashing) is mandatory.
LtWorf · 2h ago
Yeah but the USA wokeness is only about words, not about solving anyone's problems for real.
When I was an undergraduate working in a molecular biology lab my two mentors, Andrei and Svetlana were Russian emigrants. Andrei taught me, in the 00s, that he couldn’t do the level of molecular biology in Russia because the downstream effects decades later put them far behind in the technical and cultural knowhow. Genetics was banned.
baxtr · 6h ago
> More than 3,000 mainstream biologists were dismissed or imprisoned, and numerous scientists were executed in the Soviet campaign to suppress scientific opponents.
Scientists were executed… ok wow
cowcity · 6h ago
Almost certainly not true. Stalin's purges were in the 30s and scientists were surely executed in various contexts (same in the West) but not in the context claimed by this article.
bdamm · 6h ago
Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.
Der_Einzige · 6h ago
Of course HN has tankies.
TiredOfLife · 2h ago
And lots of them
piombisallow · 6h ago
"Same in the West" lmao, when were scientists executed in the West? The 1500s?
pavel_lishin · 6h ago
> scientists were surely executed in various contexts (same in the West)
Name one.
ponector · 4h ago
Giordano Bruno
pavel_lishin · 3h ago
As relevant to this discussion as Joan of Arc.
ponector · 2h ago
But it highlights the absurdity of the statement that West also purged scientists.
I can think about Turing, he was definitely is a victim of the system, but not because he was a scientist.
AnthonyMouse · 3h ago
How about one that doesn't predate capitalism?
LtWorf · 2h ago
So… Giordano Bruno?
ponector · 2h ago
Wasn't it a capitalism, the system Roman empire had?
gambiting · 1h ago
It had elements of capitalism, like private ownership and focus on trade via monetary means, but its economy was largely based on slavery and your position within the system was based almost entirely on where you were born and to whom. It's a pre-industrial system, capitalism isn't really the correct description for it.
ponector · 1h ago
Sounds like USA in the early days. Not a capitalism as well?
gambiting · 1h ago
I mean, obviously not? History is way more complicated than this, just because certain elements fit doesn't mean we look at it and go "yeah that's capitalism mate". Historians generally use capitalism as a description for economic systems from 19th century onwards - before then the correct answer is usually "it's complicated". I appreciate that can be frustrating if we just want to slap a simple recognizable label on things, but history doesn't always fit what we want it to be.
cowcity · 6h ago
Julius Rosenburg is an obvious one. The Nazis executed gobs of scientists. And I'm certain I could find other examples if needed, but that is off the top of my head.
pavel_lishin · 3h ago
> Julius Rosenburg is an obvious one.
Who was executed for being a spy, not for holding unorthodox scientific beliefs.
qcnguy · 27m ago
The National Socialists were socialists so that undermines not reinforces your point:
- they implemented communist policies like mass nationalization schemes with some of the resulting "companies" being amongst the largest organizations in the world
- they wanted to fully nationalize the entire economy after the war
- they passed large amounts of left wing legislation
- they, obviously, called themselves socialists constantly. Hitler said "I am a fanatical socialist".
- they openly hated capitalism. A big part of their hate for Jews was that they associated Judaism with international capital. Same reason Marx was an anti-semite.
jamiek88 · 6h ago
What? Wow. There’s a bot for every crackpot now eh?
H8crilA · 6h ago
Low quality bots are the most jarring.
Duanemclemore · 6h ago
There's a great episode of the podcast The Constant about Lysenkoism. Definitely worth a listen.
I can't find the link at the moment, apologies.
cyberax · 2h ago
> Genetics was banned.
During the 1940-s. And yet it undermined the molecular biology research in the USSR. It's very easy to destroy the institutions of scientific research.
I'm sure, nothing like this can happen in the US. It's not possible that people in power will just use theological and ideological reasons to just deny sound scientific results.
mindslight · 4h ago
Awareness of the concept has gained renewed importance in 2025.
davejagoda · 3h ago
> In their subconscious hopes that a societal formula is as simple and as universal as the famous E=mc², people are prepared to believe nonsense if it only sounds good.
I look forward to the day when the capitalist and communist eras of the 19th-21st century are analyzed coldly, in the way we look at mercantilism or medieval market towns today.
Because it really seems like both are increasingly inadequate systems for handling modernity, and the obsession with defining one as intrinsically evil and the other the obvious superior option (I’ll let you choose which is which) is such a flattening, unhelpful approach.
Personally, having moved from capitalist America to post-communist Poland, a few things seem true to me:
…the communist era in Poland was a disaster and the country today is unquestionably better off as a modified capitalist one;
…contemporary American culture really seems to be struggling under an unquestioned capitalist ethic;
…the conflict seems artificially egged on from think tanks, corporations, academics, and maybe even the simple alliteration of the letter c (i.e., you don’t hear nearly as much about Capitalism vs. Socialism, even though historically that’s a more accurate label of what governments actually were.)
…and that neither capitalism or communism has ever really been implemented in a pure sense.
Which is all a long way of saying that Mark Fisher’s quote seems more true every day, not as a pessimistic statement but just one describing a lack of imagination and the inability to transcend the debate:
“It’s easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.”
shakow · 2h ago
> having moved from capitalist America to post-communist Poland
Poland is definitely a very nice place to live right now, and improvements since the fall of the communist government is undeniable.
However, please note that not all Polish growth is just due to capitalism knocking to the door – the country is the recipient of a huge amount of EU funds[0]. To illustrate it, France, the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU budget, gives barely more than Poland receives, even though the population is a bit half as big.
Is it a bad thing? Not necessarily. But it is definitely not an illustration of a post-communist country standing by its own self.
I tend to be in the camp that believes capitalism will generally produce better results than socialism but it will not produce anything close to a utopia. However, I don't believe capitalism is a stable economic system within a democratic society. It will inevitably lead to some results that are repugnant to the electorate who will advocate for political action to prevent such outcomes from occurring in the future. This will lead to stronger government authority and increasing market manipulation which will (potentially) prevent those outcomes but simultaneously it can produce different negative outcomes[1]. In the end it seems as though despite good intentions we end up with a system that nobody understands, nobody is satisfied with, and nobody can fix. I suppose it's like software engineering in a way, we want perfection but instead we are constrained by trade-offs and we never reach a state that everyone is happy with.
[1] A classic example is rent control which tends to lead to shortages.
armchairhacker · 5h ago
IMO the problem is extremes. The best system is capitalism with some “socialist” government regulation, services, and welfare. How much and what specific policies are unknown.
titzer · 4h ago
> The best system
The best system for growth. It's important to point out that Capitalism won because it grew faster. But nothing can grow forever--certainly not exponentially--so we're now finding out how poorly late stage Capitalism copes with slowing growth and population. Oh, and that little looming thing about environmental consequences.
general1726 · 3h ago
> Capitalism copes with slowing growth and population. Oh, and that little looming thing about environmental consequences.
During communism Czech Republic lost forests over whole mountain range, because they were melted away by acid rains because it was cheaper to run brown coal power plants without any filtration.
Rivers were used as sewers for big factories. Water being brown-red under the paper mill? That's normal comrade. Having massive clumps of foam under weirs and rivers smelling like swamp and detergent? Don't complain comrade if you don't want to have problems.
Oil spills (i.e. from oil pipes) weren't cleaned, they were just covered with earth, some found decades after fall of communism.
Nobody cared about filtration in general. It was kind of normal to have a smoke cloud over an industrial city forever, unless winds were blowing strong enough to gift this poisonous present to countryside.
Is it snowing in the summer? Yeah it is not, that's just ash from factory over there. Try to catch "snowflakes" on your tongue if you would like to have cancer in few years.
Agriculture was insane as well. Forced collectivization of land and making fields as big as possible so mechanization is as effective as possible has caused erosion of soil and thus increase of usage of fertilizers which were flushed into already polluted rivers during rains.
I could go on and on. Communism has nothing to do with environmentalism.
m4rtink · 33m ago
Was talking to an archeologist recently when touring a site of a big late bronze age settlement near Brno. There was a burial ground next to the fortified settlement on the hill as well, largely undisturbed for thousands of years, under regular fields used for agriculture.
But deep plowing in the 50s and 60s, incorrect plowing gradients in the steep terrain resulted in 30-40 centimeters of fertile land lost to erosion in less than a century.
And not just that, the ancient graves were lost woth it, all the pottery and remains churned to nothing.
titzer · 2h ago
> Communism has nothing to do with environmentalism.
No one claimed it does. Basically all of what you wrote above is because of pursuit of economic growth regardless of the -ism. Environmental destruction is the inevitable result of growth of industrial society. Governments without transparency, with no environmental protections, with burgeoning eminent domain, and with corruption and backstabbing make it worse.
m4rtink · 27m ago
This was pretty much compounded in the communist era - it was the state doing the environmental destruction & it was doing it for the most holly purpose of PROGRESS and HEAVY INDUSTRY.
So if you wanted to point out we are all gonna get poisoned to death and worse, you would not only be saying the state is wrong (impossible!) but that attacking its most its most important endeavors (reactionary provocateur, shoot on sight!!).
Like, in the capitalist countries you could at least say all the mercury in the fish is causing spike in birth defects without ending up in gulag.
ivan_gammel · 2h ago
Correlation does not mean causation. In that historical period environmental consequences of industrialization were not well known and greener solutions did not exist. Communist governments chose the easiest and fastest path back then. We do not know what would be their choice or how it would complicate establishing communist regimes today.
general1726 · 1h ago
The most egregious ones were absolutely known, but fixing them would not fulfil 5 years plans, so it was not done. We absolutely knew what is a scrubber and that burning brown coal will release sulfur which will fall down as sulfurous acid. But comrade, can the power plant work without a scrubber and filtration system? Yes it can. So build it without it.
Chernobyl had exactly same problem - no containment around reactor. Why would you build it when power plant can work without it?
The main problem of communism vs environmentalism is that to get environmentalism working you need to question and complain to authorities and demand solutions for obvious problems which authorities are causing - there were no private enterprises, everything was owned by the state. But if secret police will just threaten the complainer with punishment, then you have solved the problem. No complain = no problem. Welcome to everyday realities of communism comrade.
m4rtink · 25m ago
I think this broken feedback cycle is one of the biggest isues for communist regimes, yet I don't see it mentioned often. :P
animal_spirits · 2h ago
I will point out that in capitalist systems, the money saved by the efficiencies can be put towards more environmentally positive products and technologies. Electric cars for example were very expensive, and it was the wealthy that were able to demand them, drive the market, push prices down so more middle class families can afford them. This is happening again with compostable plastics, B-corps that are more circular, efficient/recyclable packaging solutions, and other parts of our industry.
cosmicgadget · 4h ago
That's where a proactive government comes in.
chihuahua · 4h ago
You should check out how Communism treated the environment.
littlestymaar · 5h ago
> Because it really seems like both are increasingly inadequate systems for handling modernity, and the obsession with defining one as intrinsically evil and the other the obvious superior option (I’ll let you choose which is which) is such a flattening, unhelpful approach
As the post-soviet Russian joke went:
everything the communists said about communism was false, everything they said about capitalism was true.
nradov · 6h ago
I can imagine a lot. In every possible scenario, the end of capitalism means disaster for the entire human race.
keiferski · 6h ago
This is exactly the kind of low effort, no imagination response that I was referring to. No discussion of alternatives, no acknowledgement that maybe there are some issues with the current capitalist system, etc.
Just apocalyptic language, with no openness to the idea that yeah, communism was a terrible system, but maybe that doesn’t automatically imply that contemporary capitalism is inherently the best system.
qcnguy · 16m ago
Improving capitalism is possible in the abstract. The reason it's hard to imagine is that "capitalism" is not a real thing that exists concretely. It is a term used by communists to refer to the natural state of affairs that they wished to destroy.
To see this, get two people together and try to get them to agree on when capitalism started, or even what a country needs to be considered a capitalist country. Is it merely markets? If so then the Roman Empire was capitalist. Is it stock markets? Limited liability companies? Private property rights? All of the above? Who invented capitalism? If nobody did then is does it make sense to propose a replacement or is that like trying to propose a replacement for evolved things like natural wildlife ecosystems?
Once you realize that capitalism is just the naturally evolved system of mechanisms used to coordinate any advanced economy, the problem of discussing alternatives becomes clear. It doesn't make sense to try and propose a full alternative because capitalism is only really definable as "the thing that's not communism", so it's unclear what exactly you'd be proposing an alternative to.
As a naturally evolved system, the alternative to capitalism is therefore capitalism+some minor tweak. Not a radical overhaul.
vintagedave · 5h ago
Although I would argue with you that the communist governments were socialist -- they were not, at least under our current understanding of socialism (says one person contradicting another on the internet, this is opinion, I know :)) -- you're right about the intellectual blindness about other possibilities.
I find Chesteron's distributism an interesting one, and personally really admire cooperative societies.
nradov · 6h ago
Do you have anything constructive to offer or are you going to stick with low effort criticism without even proposing an alternative? So far all you have are weak complaints, totally disconnected from objective reality.
nilamo · 6h ago
That seems awfully defeatist and with a very negative view of the human spirit.
I can imagine the end of Capitalism, and it looks like Star Trek.
socalgal2 · 6h ago
Star Trek ignores real estate. Who gets the penthouse and who gets the first floor apartment next to the noisy space port. who gets the house with the beach view and who just get views of the wall of the neighboring building.
m4rtink · 21m ago
I guess if you press the post scarcity peddal hard enough youncould solve even that - space habitats potentially give so muc living space to make these issues moot.
Ekaros · 3h ago
Who does all the really shit and boring jobs. Say mining or construction. And can they just take vacation in middle of project and let it hang for a few years? It is really distorted universe where either you have automation or do not... And timeline as whole really does not work...
m4rtink · 19m ago
I guess for projects people consider themselves important this could be done via personal honor system or even just interpersonal relation - I promised my friend the launch loop will be done by equinox & he would sad if I don't hold my word.
dfedbeef · 5h ago
Yeah just let the military run everything
cheeseomlit · 5h ago
So all its gonna take to end capitalism is matter replicators, FTL travel, interstellar colonization, and unifying under a one world government after a decade of horrifying eugenics wars fought between genetically enhanced supermen- And after all that Picard gets to live on a nice vineyard in France while thousands of voyager doctor clones toil away in the dilithium mines
nilamo · 4h ago
Dang, you're so right, a post-scarcity society is obviously not feasible without renacting a fictional story.
Y'all took the example, and dove right onto the wackiest parts of that example, huh? We also haven't met a continuum of godlike sycophants, so I guess space travel isn't possible for us at all yet lmao
nradov · 3h ago
It's hilarious how anyone would consider a series of cheesy scifi stories by a collection of hack writers as a basis for discussion of economic systems. Regardless of technology, a post-scarcity is obviously not feasible. Sure we can make staple foods and mass manufactured products incrementally cheaper through automation. But the things that people really want as signaling mechanisms for social status will always be scarce. For example, prime real estate in geographically favorable areas.
krapp · 4h ago
If you're going to present Star Trek as a plausible example of what a post-scarcity, post-capitalist society looks like, it's fair to point out all of the BS behind Star Trek's portrayal. In the real world, we can't have free energy. In the real world, we can't have warp drives or replicators that can instantly and perfectly assemble anything from nothing.
And I think it's fair to point out that every vision of utopia necessarily comes at a high cost in blood and violence because you have to do something about the people who don't agree with the vision. Star Trek handwaves this away by saying humanity just "evolved" beyond their base desires and flaws and fully voluntarist socialism just works.
But without the Treknobabble and magitech, what's does the end of capitalism actually look like in a world where there are no easy solutions, and no benevolent space-elves descending from the heavens to save us from ourselves?
nradov · 6h ago
Nothing in Star Trek even makes any sense. It's a completely artificial universe, constructed as a background for telling fun stories. From the perspective of alternative economic systems it's no different than children's fairy tales.
I am an optimist and capitalism looks like success. It's the exact opposite of defeatism.
m4rtink · 15m ago
Yeah, even how they apply technology makes no sense - they have gravity control and yet they still care about planets ? Where are large scale habitats or for the record actually any mega scale engineering projects ?
saubeidl · 4h ago
Capitalism looks like exploited third world children in sweatshops making your t-shirts and phones.
It's easy to see an exploitative system as success as long as one is on the side that does the exploiting.
nradov · 3h ago
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it is the reverse.
ponector · 4h ago
Communism looks like exploited people stripped of their history and culture in gulag building useless inefficient projects.
bdangubic · 3h ago
You should take a look at how capitalism works, I’d start with like USA, see how many kids go to bed hungry, have no health insurance, etc. then I’d go to like inner City Philly or Chicago, then South to like Jackson Mississippi, check out how great all that shit is :)
ponector · 2h ago
Or you can go to Zurich, take a look how capitalism looks there. And go check how socialism in North Korea works.
People are people, top rich minority always finds ways to exploit poor majority under any system.
bdangubic · 1h ago
Switzerland ….
Switzerland has mandatory universal health insurance where everyone must purchase basic coverage. The government provides premium reduction subsidies for lower-income individuals and families to ensure affordability.
The unemployment insurance system provides benefits for up to 400 days (about 18 months) for those who lose their jobs, with the amount based on previous earnings. There are also programs for job retraining and placement assistance.
Switzerland’s public pension system that provides retirement benefits starting at age 64 for women and 65 for men. It also includes survivor benefits for spouses and children.
Comprehensive coverage for people with disabilities, including rehabilitation services, vocational training, and financial support for those unable to work.
Monthly child allowances are provided to families for each child until age 16 (or 25 if in education or training). Additional birth and adoption allowances are also available.
Social Assistance via means-tested program that provides financial support for basic living needs when other social insurance benefits are insufficient. This serves as the ultimate safety net.
Mandatory coverage for all employees that covers medical costs and income replacement for work-related and non-work-related accidents.
Paid maternity leave for 14 weeks at 80% of salary, along with job protection during this period.
Switzerland’s system is notable for combining mandatory insurance schemes with income-based contributions and government subsidies to ensure broad coverage while maintaining work incentives.
So maybe not mention Switzerland… Any of the examples would be called “far-left” (or worse) in the US of A
m4rtink · 12m ago
And all it took to esablish all this was just ending up with all the treasure plundered from Holocaust ending ub being stored in the Swiss bank vaults...
saubeidl · 4h ago
That's soviet communism. Yugoslav communism looked like people with high standards of living and the strongest passports in the world, free to travel wherever they wanted and celebrating their history.
nec4b · 2h ago
>> Yugoslav communism looked like people with high standards of living
You're just making things up as you go, aren't you?
More then a million Yugoslavs left the country as "Gastarbeiters" to be able to feed themselves and their families. Inflation was high and people had to convert their salaries into German marks the same day they got pay checks, otherwise the money was worthless the next day. Basic goods were unattainable. People had to smuggle coffee, bananas and jeans across the border. Of course if you were a part of the red nobility, your life was easier as you got access to special stores and got to enjoy the fruits of the labor of your fellow equals.
No comments yet
saubeidl · 4h ago
This is what ideological indoctrination looks like - it's worse than even amongst the CCP cadres.
simlevesque · 6h ago
Can you prove that capitalism isn't gonna end the entire human race ?
I'm sure you can imagine anything but that's not really helpful.
nradov · 6h ago
Can you prove that any other economic system isn't going to end the entire human race.
simlevesque · 5h ago
You're the one saying that capitalism is better. I didn't claim anything. Never said I knew what's best for the world.
You said you do. So, tell us ! Claims require evidences.
whycome · 7h ago
> Recent Russian studies put the count of lost lives and unborn children as high as 170 million people.
wait, does this just mean pregnancies that didn't reach full term? Or like, a hypothetical number of kids that could have been born?
zdragnar · 6h ago
The Bolsheviks were the first to get a country to legalize elective abortion in 1920. They did so as a temporary measure because so many women would have difficulty raising a child in the post-war environment.
It got to the point where hospitals were overwhelmed and they started setting up dedicated clinics.
They tried making it illegal again in the 30s but brought it back in 1955 because there was such demand.
So, presumably this 170 million number is written by someone who believes a fetus is a unique human life and the prevalence of elective abortion was so high as to be a not insignificant number of "lost lives".
jonah · 5h ago
By what actual scientific definition is a fetus, not a unique human life? They have their own unique DNA, brain, circulatory system, fingerprints, etc, etc.
In my understanding, any definition that discounts there individuality is primarily there to depersonalize them and thus justify their killing.
unnamed76ri · 5h ago
To justify their killing and assuage the conscience of any who have had one/had their wife/girlfriend have one.
totallynothoney · 4h ago
That's a philosophical discussion, not scientific fact. (The scientific facts of fetal development are of course important for the discussion) I'm sure we would entirely disagree when a fetus gets qualia or becomes a human being, but that doesn't necessarily mean one of us is ignoring science.
Unique DNA is irrelevant (a clone would be a person), lacking a viable circulatory system or fingerprints doesn't mean lack of personhood. Someone completely braindead a person or closer to a cadaver? Not everybody agrees on the same.
>In my understanding, any definition that discounts there individuality is primarily there to depersonalize them and thus justify their killing.
That's bad faith. Let me try one myself, all anti-choice people are just useful fools in the ultra-conservative campaign to maintain authoritarian control of the relationships and bodies of the people. In my country divorce was illegal until 2004, the same party that maligned it's legalization took condoms out of UN care packages after an earthquake. They would absolutely prohibit Plan B, limit condoms to married couples and make homosexuality illegal if they in had the power.
In the US, the poor will be kept barefoot and pregnant, while the Republican senator and the megapastor will get an abortion for their mistress.
Well, that's easy. Just think everyone else is evil and stupid :^)
justsomejew · 3h ago
The fact that you cannot even see how ridiculuous this piece of propaganda is, says also about your ability to reason. The great demographic drop in the Soviet Union happened after the WWII (you remember that Soviet Union defeated the nazis, right?), but even that was not "170 million people" and was due to the war started by the nazis (whatever your propaganda claims about that).
j4coh · 7h ago
Lost lives and lost potential is how I read it.
Spooky23 · 6h ago
You can play with the scope to tell the story you want. If you scope in WW2 losses as well, about 30M Soviets died. Some other number were injured or disabled. If you look at fertility rates at the time, you can project how many children would have been born, and I’m sure you could be at that number.
Additionally, the after effects of the war and Stalin persisted - the loss of men resulted in higher numbers of childless women.
I lack the information to assess whether 170M is a meaningful number, but on a relative basis, the United States and even China didn’t contend with the sheer destruction and oppression that Soviet people did, and had higher fertility rates. It’s not a “pro” or “anti” Soviet/Russian discussion - the nation’s people suffered in various ways, which had an end result.
mc32 · 7h ago
The 170MM figure is referring to all losses of life like the purges, man-made famines (Holodomor), inept ww ii strategies, as well as “unborn” children. This last one has no reference so it’s impossible to know what that means or how many people they attribute to that.
That said, the problem is a cultural one. The communists poured gas on the tendencies of the Tsars and modern Russia suffers from that legacy still. The legacy is a peasant (serf) : master way of thinking.
Culture is hard to cure and the change has to come from within. Japan had a similar problem but most of the sharp edges were dulled when they made a deal (surrender) with the Americans.
You also see this tendency to cling to bad cultural habits by some enclaves of immigrants. It can take decades of new generations to wipe some of those bad tendencies away. Some people see that as erasure of culture as a bad thing but it can also bring good.
H8crilA · 6h ago
I don't know who is downvoting this comment, but the comment is correct. Russia is a state, not a nation. The Kremlin, in all incarnations - the Tsars, Stalin, the Communist Party, Putin, even the Mongols that used to run it before Moscow, have always been perceived more like an alien force that has landed onto this land, and now one has to submit to it, without questions. This is a lesson that parents pass onto their children, implicitly or explicitly. It could become a nation-state in a relatively short order, though that's certainly going to be bloody. And nukes could be on the table as well - this is why the US was actually opposed to the USSR collapse, a fact that's not widely known today.
ivan_gammel · 2h ago
It’s a bold and unsubstantiated claim. In English language there’s a lot of confusion because the same word Russian is used both for citizenship and ethnicity, but in Russian they are different and such confusion doesn’t exist. If you run polls in Russia, ethnic minorities won’t say that they are Russians using the word for ethnicity, but they will certainly confirm that they are Russian citizens belonging to the same cultural space (and in that sense some may even use the word for ethnicity, e.g. “I’m Tatar, but I’m Russian too”). Nation is defined not by the government but by shared history and culture and may cross ethnic boundaries. Russia is big, but its people have developed the shared culture, the pride, the sense of belonging which qualify it for a nation. This comes on top of all geographical and ethnic identities, which make the picture more diverse and complex, but those identities are rarely stronger (even in regions like Chechnya).
hagendaasalpine · 5h ago
historians have described the USSR as an 'affirmitive action empire', a contradictory one
Reminds me a bit of the “Power of the Powerless” by Václav Havel.
kibwen · 6h ago
> While nazism and its crimes were condemned after World War II, making the return of this form of totalitarianism impossible
Even written in 2021 rather than today, it's difficult to take the OP seriously after this. Both Hitler's nazism and Stalin's communism are manifestations of the deeper authoritarian sympathies that infect the human psyche and to which the modern world is quickly succumbing.
sublimefire · 4h ago
> deeper authoritarian sympathies
It is not that but systematic destruction of any institution standing in the way. Once that is done it is easier to wield power and suppress people to do stuff. Just look at Russia today, where dissent is extremely risky to you and people around you, where shitnews television is pumping people with weird narratives, etc. Similarly T.Snyder argues that a precursor to the atrocities (not the war per se) in WWII were the destruction of the institutions.
justsomejew · 3h ago
Communism was quite different from nazism, whatever they tell and told you in the west. You just did not live there, and some people rewrote the history for you. Equating communism and nazism is one of the most abominable aspects of western propaganda
nec4b · 2h ago
They are both the same. One wants one true race society and the the other one true class society. The only way tho achieve one or the other state is by eliminating those who don't conform (Holocaust and Holodomor). It's despicable some pretend one is better then the other.
divan · 5h ago
Important to understand that these are "absurdities" only when viewed from the angle of market economy and democratic society. For people living in Soviet Union this was just a "state of the world".
Communist values (or lack of values) shaped the political and social systems in which people were born and raised.
First we shape systems, then systems shape us.
bevr1337 · 4h ago
This was written and edited by folks who lived in the USSR, so we know that these people held complexity. More than "just..."
Just is a great word. It alerts the author and reader that there's little substance in the claim. Just trust me!
throwaway3060 · 3h ago
Many were aware of the absurdities. The issue is that when one is inundated with absurdities around them, identifying what is true is impossible.
justsomejew · 3h ago
Well, the very real absurdities and nightmare of your "way of life", you don't see them as well.
What happens now in Gaza? Do you "see" it?
AnimalMuppet · 3h ago
People were shaped by the rules they lived under. That doesn't make the rules any less insane.
divan · 1h ago
Yes. What I was trying to say that people who live within those rules (and keep propagating/making them!) can't just live in the constant congitive dissonance state. They rationalize this state of the world, they tell stories (to themselves and to each other) to make sense of these rules, so it doesn't feel insane.
binary132 · 5h ago
I’m the farthest thing imaginable from a Bolshevik sympathizer but I often wonder whether big-C Communism could have survived and how it would have fared if the United States hadn’t engaged in sustained economic warfare against it. I imagine it might look something a bit like Chinese Communism does today, although perhaps those days came and went in the later eras of the Party system.
qcnguy · 9m ago
Communism depended on the west and was sustained by it. Obviously they exported raw materials to purchase the many things they failed to produce themselves including food. But also particularly, the Soviets had no way to set prices in their centrally planned economy that actually worked, so they kept the show on the road by copying prices from western free market economies.
This is one reason the USSR was always lagging behind western economies despite being scientifically advanced. They had to wait for the west to develop products and do price discovery, because GOSPLAN didn't have any way to price things properly themselves.
nradov · 5h ago
What economic warfare? Even after WWII the USA literally sold food to the USSR. Without that their food shortages would have been even worse.
flyinghamster · 5h ago
People who got too serious about communism tended to get eliminated by Stalin, and then the people in charge of the elimination (Yagoda, Yezhov, Beria) were in turn eliminated in later purges.
unnamed76ri · 5h ago
Chinese communism survives because the US spends an insane amount of money on their goods each year. It would have collapsed by now if not for the US demand for stuff.
sublimefire · 4h ago
The premise of its “success” was based on half the population working for free in the camps for the other half. Many major projects were executed with little thought for the slaves/workers that perished, all for the goals of socialism. Then oligarchy followed, without the way to increase worker productivity. The only well funded programmes were in the defence sector which bankrupted the country eventually
Entertaining, but not to be taken too seriously. The author himself says that it’s very subjective and not thoroughly fact-checked. Even then, the digs at the Kievan Rus’ are… well, absurd. Also, I don’t know of any European country without its share of demented and paranoid rulers. But England is not Henry VIII and Germany is not Hitler.
Also, this
> But let us start with the Communist Manifesto which is the holiest tome of communist ideology and can be called the red gospel.
is a pearl of unintended absurd humour. In this case, when someone applies their beliefs and frame of mind to a foreign object without actually understanding it.
In the end I agree with the author that all life if absurd, it’s just a matter of point of view.
inglor_cz · 2h ago
One thing that only the "survivors" realize is just how materialistic the Soviet Bloc societies were.
And I don't mean philosophically materialistic, like "there is no soul". That too, but I mainly mean that in the shortage of everything (and there usually was a shortage of everything) people would become fixated on owning relatively banal objects.
Girls would prostitute themselves for a nice pair of Western jeans, people would snitch and steal, break the law, run illegal smuggling rings while bribing the police, take bribes themselves etc., over things such as stockings, tires or calculators.
I was not able to persuade one young American that not paying a fat bribe to a doctor could have fatal consequences back then. "But in socialism, there must be a common free healthcare for everybody!" - Yeah, lad, on paper. Paper tolerates everything. The one thing that was never in shortage were slogans, propaganda, red flags and red stars.
csours · 5h ago
I feel like some people are trying for the sequel right now.
Moral relativism is like digging a latrine. Almost nobody wants to do it for somebody else, it's a chore to do it for one's self, but pretty much everyone appreciates when it's already done for them.
Anyway, I feel like 'liberalism' is under broad attack by both conservatives and progressives, largely because it is very unsatisfying right now.
Speaking for myself, liberalism is a way to understand the world. Liberalism in this sense does not especially imply progressivism or conservatism, and can be practiced by anyone. To re-phrase the Robustness Principle: "be opinionated in what you do, be open minded in what you accept from others".
I feel like the stronger you push your opinions into your understanding of the world, the harder it gets to actually understand what is going on in the world. As Colbert said: "reality has a well-known liberal bias". This statement makes more sense if run in reverse: "An open-minded understanding of the world is more likely to be durably and broadly true than a strongly opinionated understanding".
Unfortunately, it has become VERY difficult to talk about what is going on in the world right now, largely because a lot of disparate groups are pushing their opinions into their understanding very very hard. There are many people who currently disagree with their own in-group, but are restricted in what they can say because of social loyalty constraints. If you can't be the first person to speak up, consider being the second.
The absolute strongest superpower that humans have is the the ability to tell another story. Don't get stuck in the first satisfying story you hear.
----
If you are satisfied with blame, try examining the situation closer. If you are satisfied that a whole political party is evil, try examining the situation closer.
Here are some questions:
What is the person or organization doing
socially
economically
emotionally
political as in policy objectives
political as in electoral strategy
political as in internal power structure - is the internal power structure sound or fragmented?
When a person or organization says something, is it
complete
accurate
satisfying (to anyone? to someone? to me?)
Sometimes, it is a trap to fight the obvious fight. Perhaps the other side is fine with losing the obvious fight for some reason.
People don't believe crazy things because of correct facts, they believe them because of satisfying stories.
---
May I humbly ask 2 things of you:
1. Please don't assume I'm saying or implying something beyond what I've said here. You may feel free to go beyond what I've said, just don't put it on me.
2. Please don't join a death cult. You can look up the characteristics of a high control group; a death cult is all that plus their definition of morality narrows over time, excluding more and more people. Death cults ramp up anger over time. It's very easy to fall into one right now, and they are not exclusive to either side of the political spectrum. It's better to endure a little moral dissatisfaction than to join a high control group.
matheusmoreira · 6h ago
> While nazism and its crimes were condemned after World War II [...] this has not happened with communism.
This resonates quite deeply. In my country nazis go straight to jail but communists walk our soil completely unpunished. They have half a dozen political parties, are well coordinated, are popular and are constantly elected by the population when they promise them heaven on earth. This is especially ironic since nazism is short for national socialism.
Communism is alive and well in Latin America. Brazilian president Lula declared to CNN his intention to install communism in my country not even a week ago. It has been his intention for over 40 years. He and his party has been in power for over 20 years. Yet people act as though it was fake news.
cosmicgadget · 4h ago
A specific, racist form of fascism can't really be compared to an economic ideology.
matheusmoreira · 4h ago
It absolutely can. Nazis, like socialists, centralized control of the economy in the state. It's just that they did it in order to further the goals of the so called Aryan nation as a whole. That's why it's called national socialism.
cosmicgadget · 4h ago
"Naziism had economic principles therefore it is a peer of any general economic system." Nah. Capitalism and communism don't have all those racist tenets. Nor the expansionism.
matheusmoreira · 3h ago
Principles have nothing to do with it. The key feature is totalitarian government control over the economy and the means of production. Nazi Germany certainly had it.
cosmicgadget · 2h ago
Does communism require totalitarianism?
ivan_gammel · 1h ago
Accelerated transition to it likely does. Gradual transition probably doesn’t. In social market economies redistribution is relatively strong but it can become even stronger, to the point where it’s indistinguishable from socialism. If done carefully while rewarding entrepreneurial initiative and penalizing rent seeking, it may be even not that bad.
matheusmoreira · 20m ago
> Gradual transition probably doesn’t.
My country's current president had the exact same idea: install socialism in Brazil slowly to get people used to it so they don't launch a counter-revolution.
We are currently a dictatorship of the judiciary and very much en route to become a Venezuela tier country.
People work nearly half a year just to pay taxes and I'm not even accounting for inflation.
The future already seems hopeless and bleak and he hasn't even fully won yet.
> If done carefully while rewarding entrepreneurial initiative and penalizing rent seeking
"Careful" is the understatement of the century. Many a socialist has tried, only to discover they are on the wrong end of the Laffer curve.
Nobody really enjoys being utterly crushed by taxes in order to pay for the welfare of people they couldn't care less about.
Taxes are tolerated because people believe they will indirectly benefit from it. Taxpayers expect taxes to be converted into useful infrastructure and services for everyone, themselves included.
Socialism in practice is actually just wealth redistribution: taking from productive people to give to the poor and unproductive. Quite literally. Very often they find a way to exclude you based on your means. If you're rich or even middle class, it's not for you.
Productive people obtain approximately zero benefits from socialism. They will literally pack up and leave for better countries if they can.
matheusmoreira · 40m ago
Of course. How else could you compel vast amounts of people to do hard labor for the benefit of others?
nec4b · 1h ago
Of course, how else can you achieve classless society. Do you expect people to freely give everything they have to the state, so it can redistribute their wealth around? Don't you know the concept of a class enemy and why so much of mass murdering was going on in communist countries?
cosmicgadget · 42m ago
Catholic clergy do this.
justsomejew · 3h ago
Nazis had racial laws. As you did, by the way, just not towards jews, remember? Something which the communists have not done. And I think it ruins your theory, as well as the communusm equals nazism equation, so beloved by your propaganda
ivan_gammel · 2h ago
> Something which the communists have not done.
Except when they effectively enslaved people on the basis of their ethnicity (the reality of being Soviet German, Crimean Tatar or Chechen in 1940-early 1950s). My German grandfather was taken into Labor Army (forced labor institution) as soon as he turned 16 (in 1952). He obviously wasn’t a Nazi collaborator. He was fully rehabilitated only in 1990.
Soviet communist policies towards ethnic minorities often did involve oppression and almost genocidal treatment. That fact of course should not be used to paint an all-black picture. Late USSR wasn’t bad at all for our family, creating a lot of opportunities.
matheusmoreira · 42m ago
The original statement was "they cannot be compared". I said they could be compared. In order to demonstrate that, I drew parallels between both ideologies.
I never claimed they were equal. Not once.
throwaway3060 · 3h ago
That's because the communists found a workaround; they were the first to invent the idea that they could just officially target discrimination against "Zionists" and "cosmopolitans" and just lob that accusation against any Jew, effectively legalizing state antisemitism under a different name.
cosmicgadget · 1h ago
It amuses me that the libertarians are bearing this torch now.
simlevesque · 6h ago
It's not fake news it's good news.
nikanj · 6h ago
Nazi Germany never put up fences to stop their people from leaving. The Soviet Union did. That’s my metric for the standard of living in them
chihuahua · 3h ago
I'm virulently opposed to communism and the Soviet Union, as well as Nazism, and it is tempting to say that the Soviet Union was worse than Nazi Germany.
In some ways that's true if you look at the number of their own citizens that were killed by Stalin vs Hitler. On the other hand, Stalin had a longer period of time for his mass murder than Hitler did. But Hitler caused the almost complete destruction of Germany with the war he started.
In terms of living conditions, you are probably correct; although again, Hitler's starting point in terms of economy, civilization, and living conditions was much better than Stalin's, and we didn't see Nazism play out over decades.
Nazi Germany's soldiers on the advance engaged in systematic killing and regarded most of the population of the conquered territories as vermin; Soviet soldiers merely raped most of the women and did not engage in systematic killing campaigns, with some exceptions (e.g. Katyn massacre)
I'd say it's difficult to say which is more deplorable: Hitler killing millions just because of their ancestry, or Stalin killing millions in the Gulag because of paranoia and because it was a convenient source of labor.
If we're just looking at the success of the economic systems, leaving aside the mass murder and the devastating war, then what you're saying is correct.
throwaway3060 · 2h ago
IMO, when thinking about this question it's useful to look at the full scope of their objectives. We don't know much about what else Stalin planned, but given the time he had it probably would not fundamentally change the order of magnitude. On the other hand, we do know some of what the Nazis planned to do if they had won, and it was on a scale far beyond even the millions they did murder.
seiferteric · 5h ago
Except for the ones around the concentration camps.
wormius · 5h ago
1. Black Book of Communism
2. "Unborn"
Yeah, no.
I'm not saying USSR was a panacea or that Stalin did nothing wrong (Tankies are the fucking worst. I hung out on /r/communism for a while, and, as the kids used to say "gross").
I take writing like the OP with a HUGE grain of salt.
There are plenty of crimes and problems with what happened in the Soviet Union. Some of these were intentional by the leadership both before, during, and after Stalin. Some of these were self-owns (War Communism much?) some of these were forced errors (when doing battle one makes tough choices, and this includes in ideological/economic/actual war). Some of these were straight up evil policies (gulags, great purges, Katyn, etc...)
If someone can do real analysis I'm down, but once you start quoting Black Book of Communism, I know you're coming with an agenda and it's hard for me to take you in good faith. Especially if you're counting "The Unborn" - go on, just call the US a "Nazi Nation with the unborn holocaust" (I grew up in that shit, so saw the propaganda first hand).
nec4b · 1h ago
>>1. Black Book of Communism
Are you contending existence of mass murders under almost any communist regime? What agenda are you talking about? You are making it sound communism is a noble idea, which someone is trying to discredit undeservingly.
>>2. "Unborn"
It was about an estimation of how much more people would Soviet Union have in time if it hadn't murdered so many of its citizens. Imagine children of children of missing 20 million people.
loloquwowndueo · 7h ago
> death toll of communist terror
I don’t think this was the fault of that socioeconomic system known as “communism”. Yet the article tries to push that assumption a few times.
> Hitler as the biggest criminal and murderer of the 20th century. It is hard to believe that, actually, Stalin murdered significantly more. Not only are the crimes of communism not condemned, but they are by and large not known.
Right, so it was this particular implementation of communism, epitomized by Stalin’s policies.
kkrs · 5h ago
That wasn't the only issue with communism. It was so inefficient it failed to make enough food. Soviet style central planning was popular in India as well, which was a democracy. Resulting shortages and low economic growth led to what was avoidable deaths and malnutriton. Once you take price out of the picture, society stops being self-organizing and has to be told what to do. That socioeconomic system failed horribly and yet people keep trying to spin fantasies about it.
inglor_cz · 2h ago
Don't try this at live human beings again. I don't care about your nice theory that could theoretically work.
Just don't. I was born in such a miserable system and I certainly don't want to die in one.
One century of hell was enough.
rwmj · 6h ago
Ah ha, didn't have to wait long for "we've not tried real communism yet".
dvfjsdhgfv · 6h ago
But if we want to be precise, he is right - in theory, it wasn't the fault of that socioeconomic system itself, and logically you can't exclude the possibility that in the future there might be a communist system without causing millions of deaths, unfortunately in practice all such systems, including the one in Russia and China, had enormous toll.
The reason for it, in my opinion, stems from the origin: in an ideal world, the whole population would agree the system is fantastic and introduce it, based on mutual respect. What actually happens is that crowds get furious and start killing and introduce a new system by violence, so it's hard to expect a nice fruit from a rotten seed.
endoblast · 5h ago
I think you've got it the wrong way around. All ideology is wrong, incorrect and fails in contact with reality. The true purpose of ideology (or 'the system') is to provide its adherents with the excuse they need to act badly. It could be relatively mild attempts to increase social status through hypocrisy and virtue-signalling. Or it could be to commit murder, torture and so on.
As Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn put it:
Ideology—that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others’ eyes, so that he won’t hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors.
What obscures matters is that evil tends to operate in layers with each layer deceived by the layer above it in the hierarchy (or below it, if you prefer a lowerarchy). So at the bottom there is a multitude of relatively decent people who don't want to kill and really do believe in the system.
rwmj · 6h ago
You almost had it right there at the end. Communism isn't compatible with how humans normally act. You can't introduce a system which is incompatible with humans and expect it to work.
Anyway next time you experiment with utopias, try not to bring along hundreds of millions of unwilling participants.
seiferteric · 5h ago
I think Communism is a 19th century pseudoscience idea like phrenology. There’s no evidence these things are real but phrenology was easy to discount while many people still choose to believe in Communism despite lack of evidence of it working long term.
dvfjsdhgfv · 5h ago
> Communism isn't compatible with how humans normally act.
A correction: most humans. There are a few who like communism. Why not them live their lives as they want? Communities like the Longo Maï are a living proof this is absolutely possible on a tiny scale when a willing subset is involved.
GauntletWizard · 6h ago
The theory is a perfectly spherical cow - impossible in practice, laughable in imagination. We have a firm understanding from historical data of how it fails, even if it doesn't match the imagination of its proponents.
nradov · 6h ago
Genocide is the inevitable result of communism. There is no plausible way to avoid this outcome.
dwb · 5h ago
Communism is very widely defined as a classless, moneyless, stateless society. So no, it has not existed in any modern society. Criticise the Soviet Union all you like – any good Marxist should do the same – but this is a very weak put-down.
> Nowadays, there exist people who yearn for that mollusk-like life.
This isn't an inaccurate description, and yes, it's not exactly a utopian state to find yourself in.
But I'm not going to chuckle at the hypothetical people we're supposed to pity for wanting this; I bet there are quite a few people in the United States alone who would love to have this life, who would love to have a guaranteed job, a guaranteed roof over their heads, and the heads of their children.
I'd almost venture to say the majority of people, and definitely those who suffer from a disability of some sort; especially mental health, where one may not mentally function well enough from one day to the next to be able to reliably hold a job.
Let me quote the text:
> An anecdote on this very topic became popular in the later Soviet Union. A young communist proclaimed victoriously: “We have founded a society where there are no rich people!” To which an old social democrat shook his head and muttered, “Actually our intention was to found a society were there were no poor people.”
Many in the west would like this idea. Try goggle "communism support young americans".
Same with the RETVRN types who dream of an ancient-like societal structure without realizing that they would likely be slaves.
The excuses they might make, that libertarianism requires some basically supportive context (provided by who? and in what system?) to get off the ground, also undermine the arguments of the hard-independent individual crowd.
(I happen to think that "libertarianism" is a fruitful collection of ideas and insights, but in the context of many other systems with complementary ideas and insights. On a practical level, we need the best of many systems working together.)
Even if they do, when you're living somewhere that's free to fail you before you're even born, the second-worst case can still look good. And also the absolute worse case is Pol Pot, and there's many examples equally awful showing that a lot of people just flat out refuse to accept humans can be that evil.
But also, basically all types of governments can demonstrate the sorts of failure mode that Communism is famous for. Holodomor and Great Leap Forward's famines were Communist failures, the Irish Potato Famine and several in India under the British were Capitalist failures.
> the fact that this ideology is flawed at its very core?
You may be surprised if you read a copy of The Communist Manifesto. Several parts of it have been considered "common sense" in capitalist nations for over a century.
Me, I think Karl Marx made the same error as Adam Smith, that both think humans free from rules are naturally amazing and they largely ignore power seeking behaviours and the consequences of that. Hence Smith is associated with laissez-faire, and "socialist" and "anarchist" were seen by the authorities of the 19th c. as being much the same*.
(I over simplify a bit, this is just a comment and not a script for a replacement idiology).
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_anarchism_and_li...
The usual claim that potato famine was a failure of capitalism is something like claiming that Britain should have supplied even more aid than they did, despite them doing quite communistic things like organizing massive public works programmes that employed half a million people, and providing so much aid it caused a financial panic.
So these situations aren't comparable.
Marxism and Smith are likewise not the same. Smith wrote a description of the world as he saw it. Marx wrote a description (sort of) of the world as he wanted it to be. Marxism wasn't similar to anarchism or laissez-faire economics either. Although he liked to claim that communism would eventually become a kind of utopian anarchy free of all constraints, he also insisted that getting there would require a dictatorship of the proletariat first. Actual anarcho-socialists like Mikhail Bakunin correctly pointed out that this was incoherent because once such a totalitarian state was established it would never dissolve itself.
To Quote Ronald Reagan...
“How do you tell a Communist? Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin.”
But that aside, when you're already getting failed and the people failing you specifically hate one thing, it's very easy to reach for that thing.
To your quote: Well, I'm not a communist (unlike a previous partner)… but I'm also not a capitalist, because I see that capitalism also is a deeply flawed ideology doomed to catastrophic failure and devastating results, and that history has shown us this, too, repeatedly.
I'm also not "anti-" either of them, because I'd rather see someone take the best of both and find some new mechanism to deal with the other repeatedly observed historical fact: that a non-trivial fraction of the population are power-hungry sadistic arses. To quote, albeit from fiction: "To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." - https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/2416-the-major-problem-mdas...
(Both capitalism and communism have failure modes separate from the problem of dark triad personalities, but both sets are much easier to deal with if your society has also solved the problem of dark triad personalities, and a society does also need to solve the problem of dark triad personalities irregardless of what else it does).
So obviously I welcome any anecdotes to the contrary, but I was always told that in my formely communist country(Poland) university admissions were extremely fair. Everyone had equal chance if they passed exams well enough - in fact messing around with this system was guaranteed to get you in prison for corruption. And in there were many examples of poor families from very disadvantaged backgrounds sending kids to top universities because they studied hard enough to pass the entrance exams - there was no bribe you could give anyone to get you in, because the principles of fair admissions were upheld as the greatest value. I'm sure there are examples of it happening that we could find, but my understanding is that it was incredibly rare.
Now, top posts at universities - that's a different situation. To be the dean you had to be in the party and know the right people to be considered for the position. But students? Anyone could get anywhere and study completely for free.
The main issue was that anyone the state was not comfortable with was banned from higher education, including their children.
Have any connection to the pre-communist politics, be involved in religion, be reported by your neighbors as speaking against the regime or just got in the way of someone i power - congratulation comrade, you and your children (regardless of how gifted) are now second class, can't go to university & are relegated to second class jobs, for ever!
And this basically applied to everything the communist state could miss-use to award or punish people - jobs, internal and foreign travel, housing, being able to do art or write books, etc.
And any time the single party that could never do any wrong decided to punish you - there was no recourse.
You would have a job and some money, but your money would buy nothing, because goods were scarce. Even finding good shoes would be a challenge and you would need to cultivate relationships with warehouse clerks etc. to get some access to stuff before it was stealthily distributed by underground channels to relatives, friends etc.
Modern Americans would go absolutely ballistic if they came to a shop with empty shelves and a bored arrogant assistant who would jeer at their very question "I want to buy X".
Reminds me of an old Russian joke. In stores, you'd typically go to one counter to get some produce weighed, then to a cashier to pay for it.
So, someone goes up to the meat counter, and asks, "Can you weigh me out half a kilo of sausage?" And the guy behind the counter replies: "Sure, bring some in, and I'll weigh it out for you."
"Capitalism is based on exploitation of a man by another man. In Communism, it is the other way round!"
No comments yet
There is nothing stopping people from living like communists in the US. There have been many communist communes here and in other countries, like famously Israel and Columbia. All but single digits have been abandoned or sold by their inhabitants.
So we've got plenty of historical evidence whether people would choose to have this life. All but a few dozen, out of hundreds of million, choose against it. Including all socialists, everyone in those demonstrations, ... demonstrating extremely clearly:
without constant terror, socialism cannot exist.
Capitalism stops them. The state has expectations of everyone. They will have to deal with things from outside that will force them into some level of capitalistic thinking which will ultimately eat the project from within.
> All but single digits have been abandoned or sold by their inhabitants.
The fact that the death of these experiments comes with a sale is illustrative of the point above
> without constant terror, socialism cannot exist.
Is that so? It sounds like red scare propaganda honestly, and I don't think you could reasonably make an argument for this without conceding that the same is true of capitalism.
This is not a difference between capitalism and communism, and so not a valid complaint. You will pay taxes in a communist system. You will have to deal with all sorts of external influences in a communist system.
> The fact that the death of these experiments comes with a sale is illustrative of the point above
No it isn't. These were voluntary sales (especially since most were abandoned, not sold. There was no profit in leaving, except in some cases). It is illustrative of the simple fact that given the choice, all but a rare exception chooses against communism.
Or to put it another way: people REALLY don't want communism, and after trying it, that becomes worse. In many cases abandoning these communes required a large-ish group of people taking the decision together. In other words: they organized themselves to destroy their little patch of communism. Which illustrates the next point:
> > without constant terror, socialism cannot exist.
> Is that so? It sounds like red scare propaganda honestly, and I don't think you could reasonably make an argument for this without conceding that the same is true of capitalism.
You just made an argument in favor of this. Your argument is that people cannot be allowed to have access to the external world, or they will abandon communism. That must be prevented, in your argument.
HOW will you prevent it? State terror.
That is quite inaccurate. Or partially accurate. Accurate for white russian people.
For others it was quite easy to loose a job and get a forced psychiatric treatment or gulag trip (depends on the year).
A friend of mine had a grandfather, who was born in central Asia (Samarkand) had Ukrainian parents, but also had written in his passport that he was a russian. Soviets erased his roots, history, ethnicity. He never spoke Ukrainian in his life.
Btw, that is what current russian government is doing. They have stolen thousands of Ukrainian kids and erased their identity. Few more years and some of them are ready to be sent to the frontline.
The rest of your statement doesn't make any sense. One went to a gulag for opposing the Soviet government, not for having a particular ethnicity. Stalin was ethnically Georgian. Many prominent members of the politburo were Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, or Jews. In the later Soviet Union there were many politicians from the "ethnic" republics who had high-powered careers.
In fact, look at the list of Russian politicians who are currently under international sanctions and tell me with a straight face that they are all white and Russian. Well, they are Russian of course, but not in the way you meant.
But do you say it with first-hand experience?
Having gone back to Russia to meet with relatives, it was very clear that they considered "Tajiks" to be somewhere below them on a social ladder, and one relative directly inquired whether I felt safe living in America with all the "Africans" living in New York. (Granted, that last statement could back up your point that it only matters in America - but it didn't feel that way at the time.)
It feels more calculated than that -- there are people trying to keep it alive for use as a partisan wedge issue.
Replace first past the post voting (and therefore the two-party system) with score voting and see what happens to the issue.
Example, in Missouri there was a ballot initiative called Amendment 7. The first part of the Amendment was to enshrine banning non-citizens from voting. I want to be clear, this was already against state law. This didn't change anything.
The second part of Amendment 7 was to ban ranked choice voting and require a plurality. That was the REAL intent of the Amendment.
People got duped, badly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_Un...
No one of mentioned high ranks could freely use native language.
You probably know how they called USSR the prison of nations.
Yes. That was the author's point.
We should.
What communists really want is to have their every need and desire magically provided for, as if they were fundamental rights. In other words, what they truly want is called post-scarcity: the absence of an economy.
Communism and socialism are economic models. There exists scarcity of goods and resources and therefore they must be economized. There's a system that chooses who gets access to said scarce resources.
Socialism is sold to people as though it was post-scarcity. People think they'd be living comfortable "secure" lives where everything is guaranteed and provided for. Ah yes, the fabled memetic fully automated luxury space communism.
People who buy into this will probably end up doing forced hard labor in a field somewhere should communists actually come to power. They will not get to do what they want, they will work wherever the state puts them to work under penalty of death by firing squad. The state has no choice, anything else means mass starvation and millions of deaths.
Pity is far too lenient a reaction towards such reality distorting naïveté. If left unchecked, they will win elections and actually install socialism in your country.
We have a better chance of achieving post scarcity by collapsing capitalism with relentless automation.
That is a huge difference from the mass experiment with central-command economy that was run in the countries of the Soviet Bloc. Unsurprisingly, ideologues and bureaucrats cannot really create and sustain a competitive economy. That requires a different sort of mentality.
Currently people all over the world are free to move to New York, which makes the city unaffordable. If you forbade anyone not born within it from moving there, Manhattan would be fairly affordable and homelessness would be much reduced.
All you need to do is to free yourself from that bourgeois delusion that a man from Mexico (or worse, West Virginia) has any right to live in that city.
Ouch: straight to being against others.
No, the part you'd need to implement to get socialised housing is socialised housing. Similarly, there are modern equivalents to guaranteed jobs. Communism believed everyone had to work: today we have different ideas of purpose than Marx had, plus are more aware of those who cannot work, or the value of non-work social contributions, and tech folks like us might believe in or hope for an upcoming post-scarcity society, with a transition period of UBI.
I expect you want to control migration and residency in order to avoid freeloaders. Freeloaders are remarkably rare, most people have self-respect and enjoy being productive, and interestingly systems that exterminate freeloaders entirely tend to be less efficient.[1] Plus, if you have a wonderful system, the best way to handle other people wanting it is to help it grow, not limit it to yourself. A better policy would be one encouraging its growth elsewhere in other countries where all those folk who are coming to your shores are coming from. The US has a long (mixed) history of that approach re democracy.
[1] https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fra...
Residency controls exist to solve the Economic Problem. The amount of people that want to live in global cities is endless. Even if you socialize all the housing in New York, there will be people that want to live in the city but won't be able to. It is the job of the economic system to determine who gets in and who doesn't.
That's why socialized housing requires residency controls, but if those were implemented in the United States, the country could reap the specified benefits of of the Soviet system.
Finally, you speak of encouraging growth elsewhere, but what can be more productive for the growth of West Virginia, than to tell every man born in that state that he shall also die in that state. What can be better for industrial development, but a labor force that can't move away?
It's so sad to see communists cling to capitalist concepts like that. Communism has no future so long as it's supporters refuse to understand that Marx's magnificent philosophical and political system rejects borgeous human rights.
That isn't true. There are a finite number of living people and if you just kept building housing in every major city, there would be enough for everyone who wants to live there.
It might not be practical to build enough housing in one city to house the entire global population, but who is proposing that anyway? Build more housing everywhere.
> Finally, you speak of encouraging growth elsewhere, but what can be more productive for the growth of West Virginia, than to tell every man born in that state that he shall also die in that state. What can be better for industrial development, but a labor force that can't move away?
By implication you would also have an inability to import labor. And then if you don't e.g. have a local medical school, you don't have local doctors. If you have the local environment to sustain a major industry and a local population that could do 90% of the jobs, but the other 10% are specialists who would have to be paid to relocate then it can't open up there at all and you lose the other 90% of the jobs too.
Suppose you have a mining town somewhere until the mine is exhausted. What are the people who used to live there supposed to do other than move away? There is nothing there for them anymore.
That's sort of of neither here nor there. Sure, it's probably true, but try explaining that to anyone who hates bourgeois democracy. "If only we let the greedy property developers have it their way."
But the point that I'm trying to get across here with no small amount of irony (that I hope is fairly obvious), is that all the benefits of living in a communist dictatorship come from the dictatorship, not from the communism. Collectivized agriculture, state industries, socialized housings - all those things are worse than useless. What provided safety, stability and a guaranteed standard of life was the semi-serfdom imposed by the state.
> By implication you would also have an inability to import labor. And then if you don't e.g. have a local medical school, you don't have local doctors. If you have the local environment to sustain a major industry and a local population that could do 90% of the jobs, but the other 10% are specialists who would have to be paid to relocate then it can't open up there at all and you lose the other 90% of the jobs too.
The Soviet system did allow for movement. When a factory was opened and had to be staffed, permits were issued for the necessary people. In fact that was the only significant way for people from rural areas to be allowed the privilege to move to a city. Similarly, the problem with doctors was dealt with rather elegantly - every graduate of a medical school was assigned a specific town or village and was forced to live and practice there for decades.
The Soviet Union didn't abolish the movement of people. In fact, in the 1940s it was probably something of a champion in terms of internal migration. It's the freedom of movement that was abolished.
Stalin couldn't have put it better himself.
Even today, two-thirds of Viennese residents live in public housing, the city is Europe's largest landlord and as a result, housing is extremely affordable for a world-class city. It's not without reason that Vienna tends to top worldwide quality of life rankings - it's the achievements of Red Vienna.
[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/magazine/vienna-social-ho...
It's population declined from 2.4 million in 1914[1] to 1.5 million in the 1980s[2]. The only reason why it's currently considered even close to a world-class city is that after the fall of the Berlin wall it was the natural financial hub for oligarchic capital.
I think we can all agree not many great and global cities have tons of free housing emptied by a prolonged period of decline. And that we can't really evaluate if the city is solving the economic problem well or badly, as right now it's simply less acute for historical reasons that have nothing to do with it's housing policy.
[1] https://ww1.habsburger.net/en/chapters/growing-city-vienna-e... [2] https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/20107/vien...
That is not the case in Vienna, either. The government built enough units to supply ten percent of the total market and used that leverage to drive down prices. Before that, a large portion lived in squalor.
> But from 1923 to 1934, in a period known as Red Vienna, the ruling Social Democratic Party built 64,000 new units in 400 housing blocks, increasing the city’s housing supply by about 10 percent. Some 200,000 people, one-tenth of the population, were rehoused in these buildings, with rents set at 3.5 percent of the average semiskilled worker’s income, enough to cover the cost of maintenance and operation
Isn't that the point of capitalism? If you can afford to live in New York, you do. If you can't, you don't.
Or for example I had to point out to my dad that his neighbor open carries. Like my dad is intellectually aware of the 2nd amendment but it didn't fit in his brain that people could actually exercise a freedom so his eyes were literally blind to it (obviously I drove him to the gun shop that evening)
Why would that be obvious?
You know what the reality is in US? Even close friends don't talk on sensitive topics. At work only woke propaganda is allowed, woke training (brainwashing) is mandatory.
When I was an undergraduate working in a molecular biology lab my two mentors, Andrei and Svetlana were Russian emigrants. Andrei taught me, in the 00s, that he couldn’t do the level of molecular biology in Russia because the downstream effects decades later put them far behind in the technical and cultural knowhow. Genetics was banned.
Scientists were executed… ok wow
Name one.
I can think about Turing, he was definitely is a victim of the system, but not because he was a scientist.
Who was executed for being a spy, not for holding unorthodox scientific beliefs.
- they implemented communist policies like mass nationalization schemes with some of the resulting "companies" being amongst the largest organizations in the world
- they wanted to fully nationalize the entire economy after the war
- they passed large amounts of left wing legislation
- they, obviously, called themselves socialists constantly. Hitler said "I am a fanatical socialist".
- they openly hated capitalism. A big part of their hate for Jews was that they associated Judaism with international capital. Same reason Marx was an anti-semite.
I can't find the link at the moment, apologies.
During the 1940-s. And yet it undermined the molecular biology research in the USSR. It's very easy to destroy the institutions of scientific research.
I'm sure, nothing like this can happen in the US. It's not possible that people in power will just use theological and ideological reasons to just deny sound scientific results.
This is an interesting insight on human nature.
Because it really seems like both are increasingly inadequate systems for handling modernity, and the obsession with defining one as intrinsically evil and the other the obvious superior option (I’ll let you choose which is which) is such a flattening, unhelpful approach.
Personally, having moved from capitalist America to post-communist Poland, a few things seem true to me:
…the communist era in Poland was a disaster and the country today is unquestionably better off as a modified capitalist one;
…contemporary American culture really seems to be struggling under an unquestioned capitalist ethic;
…the conflict seems artificially egged on from think tanks, corporations, academics, and maybe even the simple alliteration of the letter c (i.e., you don’t hear nearly as much about Capitalism vs. Socialism, even though historically that’s a more accurate label of what governments actually were.)
…and that neither capitalism or communism has ever really been implemented in a pure sense.
Which is all a long way of saying that Mark Fisher’s quote seems more true every day, not as a pessimistic statement but just one describing a lack of imagination and the inability to transcend the debate:
“It’s easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.”
Poland is definitely a very nice place to live right now, and improvements since the fall of the communist government is undeniable.
However, please note that not all Polish growth is just due to capitalism knocking to the door – the country is the recipient of a huge amount of EU funds[0]. To illustrate it, France, the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU budget, gives barely more than Poland receives, even though the population is a bit half as big.
Is it a bad thing? Not necessarily. But it is definitely not an illustration of a post-communist country standing by its own self.
[0] https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-...
What shaped Poland into something acceptable as a NATO member was USAID - the program Musk and Big Balls axed.
USAID allowed Poland to join NATO and later the EU. I've snatched the 188-pages long PDF[0] (English/Polish) before it was publicly erased.
[0] https://sysartist.com/usaid-and-the-polish-decade.pdf
[1] A classic example is rent control which tends to lead to shortages.
The best system for growth. It's important to point out that Capitalism won because it grew faster. But nothing can grow forever--certainly not exponentially--so we're now finding out how poorly late stage Capitalism copes with slowing growth and population. Oh, and that little looming thing about environmental consequences.
During communism Czech Republic lost forests over whole mountain range, because they were melted away by acid rains because it was cheaper to run brown coal power plants without any filtration.
Rivers were used as sewers for big factories. Water being brown-red under the paper mill? That's normal comrade. Having massive clumps of foam under weirs and rivers smelling like swamp and detergent? Don't complain comrade if you don't want to have problems.
Oil spills (i.e. from oil pipes) weren't cleaned, they were just covered with earth, some found decades after fall of communism.
Nobody cared about filtration in general. It was kind of normal to have a smoke cloud over an industrial city forever, unless winds were blowing strong enough to gift this poisonous present to countryside.
Is it snowing in the summer? Yeah it is not, that's just ash from factory over there. Try to catch "snowflakes" on your tongue if you would like to have cancer in few years.
Agriculture was insane as well. Forced collectivization of land and making fields as big as possible so mechanization is as effective as possible has caused erosion of soil and thus increase of usage of fertilizers which were flushed into already polluted rivers during rains.
I could go on and on. Communism has nothing to do with environmentalism.
But deep plowing in the 50s and 60s, incorrect plowing gradients in the steep terrain resulted in 30-40 centimeters of fertile land lost to erosion in less than a century.
And not just that, the ancient graves were lost woth it, all the pottery and remains churned to nothing.
No one claimed it does. Basically all of what you wrote above is because of pursuit of economic growth regardless of the -ism. Environmental destruction is the inevitable result of growth of industrial society. Governments without transparency, with no environmental protections, with burgeoning eminent domain, and with corruption and backstabbing make it worse.
So if you wanted to point out we are all gonna get poisoned to death and worse, you would not only be saying the state is wrong (impossible!) but that attacking its most its most important endeavors (reactionary provocateur, shoot on sight!!).
Like, in the capitalist countries you could at least say all the mercury in the fish is causing spike in birth defects without ending up in gulag.
Chernobyl had exactly same problem - no containment around reactor. Why would you build it when power plant can work without it?
The main problem of communism vs environmentalism is that to get environmentalism working you need to question and complain to authorities and demand solutions for obvious problems which authorities are causing - there were no private enterprises, everything was owned by the state. But if secret police will just threaten the complainer with punishment, then you have solved the problem. No complain = no problem. Welcome to everyday realities of communism comrade.
As the post-soviet Russian joke went:
everything the communists said about communism was false, everything they said about capitalism was true.
Just apocalyptic language, with no openness to the idea that yeah, communism was a terrible system, but maybe that doesn’t automatically imply that contemporary capitalism is inherently the best system.
To see this, get two people together and try to get them to agree on when capitalism started, or even what a country needs to be considered a capitalist country. Is it merely markets? If so then the Roman Empire was capitalist. Is it stock markets? Limited liability companies? Private property rights? All of the above? Who invented capitalism? If nobody did then is does it make sense to propose a replacement or is that like trying to propose a replacement for evolved things like natural wildlife ecosystems?
Once you realize that capitalism is just the naturally evolved system of mechanisms used to coordinate any advanced economy, the problem of discussing alternatives becomes clear. It doesn't make sense to try and propose a full alternative because capitalism is only really definable as "the thing that's not communism", so it's unclear what exactly you'd be proposing an alternative to.
As a naturally evolved system, the alternative to capitalism is therefore capitalism+some minor tweak. Not a radical overhaul.
I find Chesteron's distributism an interesting one, and personally really admire cooperative societies.
I can imagine the end of Capitalism, and it looks like Star Trek.
Y'all took the example, and dove right onto the wackiest parts of that example, huh? We also haven't met a continuum of godlike sycophants, so I guess space travel isn't possible for us at all yet lmao
And I think it's fair to point out that every vision of utopia necessarily comes at a high cost in blood and violence because you have to do something about the people who don't agree with the vision. Star Trek handwaves this away by saying humanity just "evolved" beyond their base desires and flaws and fully voluntarist socialism just works.
But without the Treknobabble and magitech, what's does the end of capitalism actually look like in a world where there are no easy solutions, and no benevolent space-elves descending from the heavens to save us from ourselves?
I am an optimist and capitalism looks like success. It's the exact opposite of defeatism.
It's easy to see an exploitative system as success as long as one is on the side that does the exploiting.
People are people, top rich minority always finds ways to exploit poor majority under any system.
Switzerland has mandatory universal health insurance where everyone must purchase basic coverage. The government provides premium reduction subsidies for lower-income individuals and families to ensure affordability.
The unemployment insurance system provides benefits for up to 400 days (about 18 months) for those who lose their jobs, with the amount based on previous earnings. There are also programs for job retraining and placement assistance.
Switzerland’s public pension system that provides retirement benefits starting at age 64 for women and 65 for men. It also includes survivor benefits for spouses and children.
Comprehensive coverage for people with disabilities, including rehabilitation services, vocational training, and financial support for those unable to work.
Monthly child allowances are provided to families for each child until age 16 (or 25 if in education or training). Additional birth and adoption allowances are also available.
Social Assistance via means-tested program that provides financial support for basic living needs when other social insurance benefits are insufficient. This serves as the ultimate safety net.
Mandatory coverage for all employees that covers medical costs and income replacement for work-related and non-work-related accidents.
Paid maternity leave for 14 weeks at 80% of salary, along with job protection during this period.
Switzerland’s system is notable for combining mandatory insurance schemes with income-based contributions and government subsidies to ensure broad coverage while maintaining work incentives.
So maybe not mention Switzerland… Any of the examples would be called “far-left” (or worse) in the US of A
You're just making things up as you go, aren't you? More then a million Yugoslavs left the country as "Gastarbeiters" to be able to feed themselves and their families. Inflation was high and people had to convert their salaries into German marks the same day they got pay checks, otherwise the money was worthless the next day. Basic goods were unattainable. People had to smuggle coffee, bananas and jeans across the border. Of course if you were a part of the red nobility, your life was easier as you got access to special stores and got to enjoy the fruits of the labor of your fellow equals.
No comments yet
I'm sure you can imagine anything but that's not really helpful.
You said you do. So, tell us ! Claims require evidences.
wait, does this just mean pregnancies that didn't reach full term? Or like, a hypothetical number of kids that could have been born?
It got to the point where hospitals were overwhelmed and they started setting up dedicated clinics.
They tried making it illegal again in the 30s but brought it back in 1955 because there was such demand.
So, presumably this 170 million number is written by someone who believes a fetus is a unique human life and the prevalence of elective abortion was so high as to be a not insignificant number of "lost lives".
In my understanding, any definition that discounts there individuality is primarily there to depersonalize them and thus justify their killing.
Unique DNA is irrelevant (a clone would be a person), lacking a viable circulatory system or fingerprints doesn't mean lack of personhood. Someone completely braindead a person or closer to a cadaver? Not everybody agrees on the same.
>In my understanding, any definition that discounts there individuality is primarily there to depersonalize them and thus justify their killing.
That's bad faith. Let me try one myself, all anti-choice people are just useful fools in the ultra-conservative campaign to maintain authoritarian control of the relationships and bodies of the people. In my country divorce was illegal until 2004, the same party that maligned it's legalization took condoms out of UN care packages after an earthquake. They would absolutely prohibit Plan B, limit condoms to married couples and make homosexuality illegal if they in had the power.
In the US, the poor will be kept barefoot and pregnant, while the Republican senator and the megapastor will get an abortion for their mistress.
Well, that's easy. Just think everyone else is evil and stupid :^)
Additionally, the after effects of the war and Stalin persisted - the loss of men resulted in higher numbers of childless women.
I lack the information to assess whether 170M is a meaningful number, but on a relative basis, the United States and even China didn’t contend with the sheer destruction and oppression that Soviet people did, and had higher fertility rates. It’s not a “pro” or “anti” Soviet/Russian discussion - the nation’s people suffered in various ways, which had an end result.
That said, the problem is a cultural one. The communists poured gas on the tendencies of the Tsars and modern Russia suffers from that legacy still. The legacy is a peasant (serf) : master way of thinking.
Culture is hard to cure and the change has to come from within. Japan had a similar problem but most of the sharp edges were dulled when they made a deal (surrender) with the Americans.
You also see this tendency to cling to bad cultural habits by some enclaves of immigrants. It can take decades of new generations to wipe some of those bad tendencies away. Some people see that as erasure of culture as a bad thing but it can also bring good.
Even written in 2021 rather than today, it's difficult to take the OP seriously after this. Both Hitler's nazism and Stalin's communism are manifestations of the deeper authoritarian sympathies that infect the human psyche and to which the modern world is quickly succumbing.
It is not that but systematic destruction of any institution standing in the way. Once that is done it is easier to wield power and suppress people to do stuff. Just look at Russia today, where dissent is extremely risky to you and people around you, where shitnews television is pumping people with weird narratives, etc. Similarly T.Snyder argues that a precursor to the atrocities (not the war per se) in WWII were the destruction of the institutions.
Communist values (or lack of values) shaped the political and social systems in which people were born and raised.
First we shape systems, then systems shape us.
Just is a great word. It alerts the author and reader that there's little substance in the claim. Just trust me!
This is one reason the USSR was always lagging behind western economies despite being scientifically advanced. They had to wait for the west to develop products and do price discovery, because GOSPLAN didn't have any way to price things properly themselves.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44843605
Also, this
> But let us start with the Communist Manifesto which is the holiest tome of communist ideology and can be called the red gospel.
is a pearl of unintended absurd humour. In this case, when someone applies their beliefs and frame of mind to a foreign object without actually understanding it.
In the end I agree with the author that all life if absurd, it’s just a matter of point of view.
And I don't mean philosophically materialistic, like "there is no soul". That too, but I mainly mean that in the shortage of everything (and there usually was a shortage of everything) people would become fixated on owning relatively banal objects.
Girls would prostitute themselves for a nice pair of Western jeans, people would snitch and steal, break the law, run illegal smuggling rings while bribing the police, take bribes themselves etc., over things such as stockings, tires or calculators.
I was not able to persuade one young American that not paying a fat bribe to a doctor could have fatal consequences back then. "But in socialism, there must be a common free healthcare for everybody!" - Yeah, lad, on paper. Paper tolerates everything. The one thing that was never in shortage were slogans, propaganda, red flags and red stars.
Moral relativism is like digging a latrine. Almost nobody wants to do it for somebody else, it's a chore to do it for one's self, but pretty much everyone appreciates when it's already done for them.
Anyway, I feel like 'liberalism' is under broad attack by both conservatives and progressives, largely because it is very unsatisfying right now.
Speaking for myself, liberalism is a way to understand the world. Liberalism in this sense does not especially imply progressivism or conservatism, and can be practiced by anyone. To re-phrase the Robustness Principle: "be opinionated in what you do, be open minded in what you accept from others".
I feel like the stronger you push your opinions into your understanding of the world, the harder it gets to actually understand what is going on in the world. As Colbert said: "reality has a well-known liberal bias". This statement makes more sense if run in reverse: "An open-minded understanding of the world is more likely to be durably and broadly true than a strongly opinionated understanding".
Unfortunately, it has become VERY difficult to talk about what is going on in the world right now, largely because a lot of disparate groups are pushing their opinions into their understanding very very hard. There are many people who currently disagree with their own in-group, but are restricted in what they can say because of social loyalty constraints. If you can't be the first person to speak up, consider being the second.
The absolute strongest superpower that humans have is the the ability to tell another story. Don't get stuck in the first satisfying story you hear.
----
If you are satisfied with blame, try examining the situation closer. If you are satisfied that a whole political party is evil, try examining the situation closer.
Here are some questions:
What is the person or organization doing
When a person or organization says something, is it Sometimes, it is a trap to fight the obvious fight. Perhaps the other side is fine with losing the obvious fight for some reason.People don't believe crazy things because of correct facts, they believe them because of satisfying stories.
---
May I humbly ask 2 things of you:
1. Please don't assume I'm saying or implying something beyond what I've said here. You may feel free to go beyond what I've said, just don't put it on me.
2. Please don't join a death cult. You can look up the characteristics of a high control group; a death cult is all that plus their definition of morality narrows over time, excluding more and more people. Death cults ramp up anger over time. It's very easy to fall into one right now, and they are not exclusive to either side of the political spectrum. It's better to endure a little moral dissatisfaction than to join a high control group.
This resonates quite deeply. In my country nazis go straight to jail but communists walk our soil completely unpunished. They have half a dozen political parties, are well coordinated, are popular and are constantly elected by the population when they promise them heaven on earth. This is especially ironic since nazism is short for national socialism.
Communism is alive and well in Latin America. Brazilian president Lula declared to CNN his intention to install communism in my country not even a week ago. It has been his intention for over 40 years. He and his party has been in power for over 20 years. Yet people act as though it was fake news.
My country's current president had the exact same idea: install socialism in Brazil slowly to get people used to it so they don't launch a counter-revolution.
We are currently a dictatorship of the judiciary and very much en route to become a Venezuela tier country.
People work nearly half a year just to pay taxes and I'm not even accounting for inflation.
The future already seems hopeless and bleak and he hasn't even fully won yet.
> If done carefully while rewarding entrepreneurial initiative and penalizing rent seeking
"Careful" is the understatement of the century. Many a socialist has tried, only to discover they are on the wrong end of the Laffer curve.
Nobody really enjoys being utterly crushed by taxes in order to pay for the welfare of people they couldn't care less about.
Taxes are tolerated because people believe they will indirectly benefit from it. Taxpayers expect taxes to be converted into useful infrastructure and services for everyone, themselves included.
Socialism in practice is actually just wealth redistribution: taking from productive people to give to the poor and unproductive. Quite literally. Very often they find a way to exclude you based on your means. If you're rich or even middle class, it's not for you.
Productive people obtain approximately zero benefits from socialism. They will literally pack up and leave for better countries if they can.
Except when they effectively enslaved people on the basis of their ethnicity (the reality of being Soviet German, Crimean Tatar or Chechen in 1940-early 1950s). My German grandfather was taken into Labor Army (forced labor institution) as soon as he turned 16 (in 1952). He obviously wasn’t a Nazi collaborator. He was fully rehabilitated only in 1990.
Soviet communist policies towards ethnic minorities often did involve oppression and almost genocidal treatment. That fact of course should not be used to paint an all-black picture. Late USSR wasn’t bad at all for our family, creating a lot of opportunities.
I never claimed they were equal. Not once.
In some ways that's true if you look at the number of their own citizens that were killed by Stalin vs Hitler. On the other hand, Stalin had a longer period of time for his mass murder than Hitler did. But Hitler caused the almost complete destruction of Germany with the war he started.
In terms of living conditions, you are probably correct; although again, Hitler's starting point in terms of economy, civilization, and living conditions was much better than Stalin's, and we didn't see Nazism play out over decades.
Nazi Germany's soldiers on the advance engaged in systematic killing and regarded most of the population of the conquered territories as vermin; Soviet soldiers merely raped most of the women and did not engage in systematic killing campaigns, with some exceptions (e.g. Katyn massacre)
I'd say it's difficult to say which is more deplorable: Hitler killing millions just because of their ancestry, or Stalin killing millions in the Gulag because of paranoia and because it was a convenient source of labor.
If we're just looking at the success of the economic systems, leaving aside the mass murder and the devastating war, then what you're saying is correct.
2. "Unborn"
Yeah, no.
I'm not saying USSR was a panacea or that Stalin did nothing wrong (Tankies are the fucking worst. I hung out on /r/communism for a while, and, as the kids used to say "gross").
I take writing like the OP with a HUGE grain of salt.
There are plenty of crimes and problems with what happened in the Soviet Union. Some of these were intentional by the leadership both before, during, and after Stalin. Some of these were self-owns (War Communism much?) some of these were forced errors (when doing battle one makes tough choices, and this includes in ideological/economic/actual war). Some of these were straight up evil policies (gulags, great purges, Katyn, etc...)
If someone can do real analysis I'm down, but once you start quoting Black Book of Communism, I know you're coming with an agenda and it's hard for me to take you in good faith. Especially if you're counting "The Unborn" - go on, just call the US a "Nazi Nation with the unborn holocaust" (I grew up in that shit, so saw the propaganda first hand).
Are you contending existence of mass murders under almost any communist regime? What agenda are you talking about? You are making it sound communism is a noble idea, which someone is trying to discredit undeservingly.
>>2. "Unborn" It was about an estimation of how much more people would Soviet Union have in time if it hadn't murdered so many of its citizens. Imagine children of children of missing 20 million people.
I don’t think this was the fault of that socioeconomic system known as “communism”. Yet the article tries to push that assumption a few times.
> Hitler as the biggest criminal and murderer of the 20th century. It is hard to believe that, actually, Stalin murdered significantly more. Not only are the crimes of communism not condemned, but they are by and large not known.
Right, so it was this particular implementation of communism, epitomized by Stalin’s policies.
Just don't. I was born in such a miserable system and I certainly don't want to die in one.
One century of hell was enough.
The reason for it, in my opinion, stems from the origin: in an ideal world, the whole population would agree the system is fantastic and introduce it, based on mutual respect. What actually happens is that crowds get furious and start killing and introduce a new system by violence, so it's hard to expect a nice fruit from a rotten seed.
As Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn put it:
Ideology—that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others’ eyes, so that he won’t hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors.
What obscures matters is that evil tends to operate in layers with each layer deceived by the layer above it in the hierarchy (or below it, if you prefer a lowerarchy). So at the bottom there is a multitude of relatively decent people who don't want to kill and really do believe in the system.
Anyway next time you experiment with utopias, try not to bring along hundreds of millions of unwilling participants.
A correction: most humans. There are a few who like communism. Why not them live their lives as they want? Communities like the Longo Maï are a living proof this is absolutely possible on a tiny scale when a willing subset is involved.