I'm sure loosening restrictions is all part of the Make America Healthy Again plan, right?
jajuuka · 10m ago
Considering vaping is an effective means to get people off cigarettes, I would guess so. MAHA is garbage but this is a good change.
nashashmi · 38m ago
Restrictions placed by govt is not a part of MAHA, and is anti MAGA.
bigyabai · 26m ago
If the federal government can't implement and enforce restrictions then it has no authority at all.
Why do you think we have tariffs?
nashashmi · 16m ago
It is not so much about what the govt can’t do. It is more about what it should not do. It is the philosophy of govt that is in the MAGA political discourse.
I am not of the opinion that govt should not be placing restrictions. That is literally the definition of laws. I am of the opinion that govt should not regulate how someone can do something.
Loosening a ban on menthol, not because it was harmful, but because it was causing addictions, was an overreach. It should have banned the Tobacco and nicotine instead.
whycome · 58m ago
> ~ Original and Menthol
I'll never understand why adults partaking in a particular vice can't enjoy different flavours (unless the vice is alcohol).
evanjrowley · 47m ago
Various U.S. institutions of authority took the position that flavors were not for adults, but instead, a strategy to attract minors.
No, they took the stance that this crusade against good flavors should specifically and only apply to Juul. Maybe deservedly given Juul's behavior in marketing to teenagers. Today, you can go to gas stations in most states and buy Cherry Ice Lemonade Cotton Candy Mr Fog vapes, or Geekbars, or whatever brand shipped straight from China is popular this month. To be honest, even if Juul were allowed to bring Mango back, I'm not sure anyone would buy it; compared to the actual desserts you can smoke today, Juul Mango doesn't hold a candle.
In other words: Our government utterly decimated an American company just to make room in the market for Chinese competitors to dominate.
Freak_NL · 47m ago
Do you mean why vapes aren't allowed to be sold in exciting flavours in a lot of countries?
Because what happened there was that 'strawberry kiwi', 'banana ice', and 'miami mint', and whatever fruity flavour in a colourful package you can come up with, turned vaping from something adults did to quit smoking tobacco into the biggest hype amongst teenagers since fidget spinners. Only they get addicted to nicotine as a bonus, and switch to 'proper' tobacco in their senior years.
Even with a complete ban on those the damage is done, and all across the globe society is now dealing with a huge profitable underground Snapchat-enabled market geared solely at selling the equivalent of a pack-a-day habit in nicotine to kids. (The ban helps to gradually denormalise vaping again, so it is good to have in place.)
whycome · 27m ago
Vapes aren't just for adults to quit smoking tobacco. They're a nicotine-delivery system. It's a way to use a legal stimulant. The flavors would make it potentially more enjoyable.
I don't think vape kids are ever switching to tobacco - that doesn't fit the model that they want at all: its an electronic device that delivers a stimulant.
Why is alcohol something that's okay to market to kids? (The new supergirl is a drunk party girl). Isn't alcohol much more harmful?
Freak_NL · 6m ago
> Why is alcohol something that's okay to market to kids?
It's not in many places. Where is it OK? There is a reason abstinence from alcohol is getting normalised for under 18s.
> I don't think vape kids are ever switching to tobacco […]
Demographic research polling suggests otherwise. Besides, it is gradually becoming more apparent that vaping is very much not a healthy thing to do¹.
Interesting, what evidence is there that people switch from e-cigarettes to tobacco? I hadn’t heard of that before.
Freak_NL · 32m ago
In the Netherlands the scientific Trimbos Institute has been reporting this based on their regular demographic research polls, but health care professionals are drawing this conclusion too. Near the end of high school vaping is something the kids do. To be really cool, you gotta smoke — and as this group of unfortunate kids is already addicted to nicotine…
funkyfourier · 16m ago
As a former smoker and vaper for 12 years this is unfathomable to me. Vaping is just better in every way. It takes some getting used to when coming straight from cigarettes, but after that the flavor of tobacco is just pure stench when compared to vanilla, strawberries etc.
Freak_NL · 3m ago
That's the problem with a not yet fully developed prefrontal cortex; cool now is way more important than healthy later.
whycome · 24m ago
You're saying they leave high school and because they vaped they will switch to smoked tobacco?
Freak_NL · 12m ago
No, what is reported is that older high school kids who vape take up smoking tobacco because vaping is perceived as childish by that time.
This is from a Dutch newspaper article interviewing one of the researchers from the Trimbos Institute:
> De overstap naar sigaretten met tabak is vervolgens snel gemaakt, zegt Croes. „We horen ook dat de jonkies op het schoolplein vapen, maar dat in de bovenbouw niet meer stoer vinden. Dan gaan ze roken, wat in hun ogen nu weer een positief imago heeft gekregen.” Zo vormen e-sigaretten volgens haar een „enorme tegenkracht” voor campagnes die jongeren van roken moeten weerhouden.¹
(Tobacco) smoking is cool again. The young kids vape, so to be really cool and adult…
Every single person I've known who switched from tobacco to e-cigarettes has switched back to tobacco. They all say it's better for one reason or another.
justinrubek · 16m ago
And every person I know that vapes did so to quit tobacco and hasn't gone back. Unfortunately, I don't know anywhere near enough people to have significant conclusions based on that.
whycome · 25m ago
That's switching 'back'. People that want vapes/ecigarettes want them for specific reasons and smoked tobacco has way too many other problems.
UncleEntity · 16m ago
You don't know me but...
I switched to vaping, IDK, 10 or so years ago from an off and (mostly) on cigarette habit and haven't looked back. There was a point where I was spending more on 'cheap' Chinese vape gear than I was on cigarettes but, other than that, no regrets.
And, yes, I'm a middle-aged adult who likes to vape flavors a well.
Perhaps the only downside, if you can even call it that, is I never tried to quit vaping as I enjoy it and it (probably) won't kill me before the lingering effects of a couple decades of smoking, environmental hazards of invading Iraq twice, the skin cancer and whatever else comes up due to my general lack of concern over living a healthy lifestyle.
meepmorp · 35m ago
Former smokers switching back is one thing, but how often do people start out with vaping and then move to smoking tobacco?
cwmoore · 40m ago
Central planning saviors to the rescue, keeping everyone safe from themselves or else in jail or public supervision. So no, it is not "good to have in place".
LeifCarrotson · 12m ago
Rules around fruity flavors (trying to target sales that disproportionately go to kids) are one thing. Rules around menthol are another, only slightly less heinous thing.
About 85% of African Americans who smoke use menthol cigarettes, compared to a rate of less than 30% menthol use among white Americans. [1] They're disproportionately advertised and were (in the past) literally given away in poor Black communities to get people addicted.
Basically, policy makers can target their regulations to a specific group by specifying flavor. Sure, an individual white adult might like fruity flavors or menthols, a black adult might like originals, and some kids might prefer original or menthols, but there's a strong statistical bias.
When health departments are trying to address a particular health concern - say, young children smoking - they can do so by targeting fruity flavors. Conversely, when tobacco company marketing departments are trying to advertise their products to Black users without drawing unwanted attention from disproportionately white regulators, they can achieve their goals by promoting menthols. An individual from any population might have any flavor preference, but the dice are shockingly heavily weighted when you're looking at large groups.
Because of the belief that making them desirable to adults is a method to sell them to kids. It also makes them less desirable which keeps cigarette sales up. Tobacco lobby is still going strong with its influence.
kevin_thibedeau · 50m ago
The candy flavors were marketed to children.
chucksta · 42m ago
Who is 99 banana's and maddog 20/20 marketed to?
hellotomyrars · 32m ago
To be fair 99 Bananas still tastes like ass with a hint of incredible artificial banana.
Also the cultural aspect is just different. It is generally harder for kids to get alcohol in my experience and also you (usually) don’t carry a bottle of 99 bananas and swig it every few minutes out in public.
Perhaps most importantly is that alcohol doesn’t contain nicotine. People get addicted to alcohol but not in the same way people get addicted to nicotine.
esseph · 34m ago
Please tell me who MD 20/20 is marketing to, I would love to know.
whycome · 22m ago
ban the marketing to children.
or limit the ads to in between all the ads for the different betting platforms.
LeifCarrotson · 7m ago
Regulators have no control over who looks at a given billboard or television ad.
It's a new phenomenon that they might (might) be able to tell TikTok or Youtube to estimate the age of individual viewers and limit which topics can appear in advertisements to different age groups.
The existence of the candy flavors and any public marketing of those flavors (even on the label in the store aisle) is implicitly marketing to children.
Barrin92 · 35m ago
>unless the vice is alcohol
there is no exception to alcohol for this. Anybody who was a teenager or older in the aughts remembers "alcopops" (might have had a different name depending on where you're from). Lots of countries regulated or raised taxes on mixed drinks because they were seen (probably justifiably so) as targeting teenagers. In Germany it resulted in Smirnoff Ice and some Bacardi mix drink largely going off the shelves.
doctorpangloss · 50m ago
Alcohol is no exception, Fourloco was banned!
jjice · 42m ago
I believe that was for the high alcohol content mixed with the high caffeine content
doctorpangloss · 12m ago
the point is that as far as they are permitted to be sold and consumed with regulations for largely cultural reasons, alcohol and tobacco are both subject to cultural (fluid) regulations, and inconsistencies between them are a matter of the speed and power of diffuse cultural forces, not some sort of big conspiracy against libertarians
chucksta · 42m ago
Its still for sale, just without caffeine
xnx · 12m ago
In some objective analysis I wouldn't be surprised if drinking a bottle of Coke daily is worse than vaping once daily, even for teens.
consp · 6m ago
Sugar is bad, but not that addictive and has no withdraw symptoms.
Nicotine is highly addictive and bad for you health. You pretty much have a customer for life ... which is the point. So next to having something which is bad for you, inhaling glycerol, combined with a substance which is addictive and bad for your health, you also are at a financial loss for life.
And it's targeted at teens ...
bgwalter · 37m ago
It is already known that E-Cigarettes cause lung damage:
Let me preface by saying that I'm not a fan of the evolution of e-cigs since they ended up being more of an entry point than a transition out of nicotine. Probably half of my friends started by vaping and moved to cigarettes.
That said, tons of other vapes are allowed on the market, so why should Juul specifically be banned?
jajuuka · 5m ago
Juul was particularly problematic for marketing designs they made. However it's not an unforgivable sin. Just needed a corrective action. Which threatening to shut them down seems to have done.
Ah, marketing and design. That's fair. I appreciate the link.
jasonthorsness · 18m ago
Targeting kids and teens with addictive substances (actually targeting anyone with addictive substances) is normalized evil. Also, addictive experiences (shorts...). Normally I lean libertarian but there has to be some allowance/mechanism for defending people from predatory corporations. Vaping was absolutely a huge problem in schools; legally "intentional" or not it was somehow getting picked up by kids.
No comments yet
paulddraper · 26m ago
Bizarre that we even have an FDA.
Tobacco products are insanely harmful.
Alcohol kills hundreds of thousands a year in the US.
Why do you think we have tariffs?
I am not of the opinion that govt should not be placing restrictions. That is literally the definition of laws. I am of the opinion that govt should not regulate how someone can do something.
Loosening a ban on menthol, not because it was harmful, but because it was causing addictions, was an overreach. It should have banned the Tobacco and nicotine instead.
I'll never understand why adults partaking in a particular vice can't enjoy different flavours (unless the vice is alcohol).
https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/e-cigarettes/why-youth-vape.html
https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/ctp-newsroom/misleading...
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6663555/
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2018/05/...
https://www.drugs.com/news/study-finds-powerful-sweetener-va...
In other words: Our government utterly decimated an American company just to make room in the market for Chinese competitors to dominate.
Because what happened there was that 'strawberry kiwi', 'banana ice', and 'miami mint', and whatever fruity flavour in a colourful package you can come up with, turned vaping from something adults did to quit smoking tobacco into the biggest hype amongst teenagers since fidget spinners. Only they get addicted to nicotine as a bonus, and switch to 'proper' tobacco in their senior years.
Even with a complete ban on those the damage is done, and all across the globe society is now dealing with a huge profitable underground Snapchat-enabled market geared solely at selling the equivalent of a pack-a-day habit in nicotine to kids. (The ban helps to gradually denormalise vaping again, so it is good to have in place.)
I don't think vape kids are ever switching to tobacco - that doesn't fit the model that they want at all: its an electronic device that delivers a stimulant.
Why is alcohol something that's okay to market to kids? (The new supergirl is a drunk party girl). Isn't alcohol much more harmful?
It's not in many places. Where is it OK? There is a reason abstinence from alcohol is getting normalised for under 18s.
> I don't think vape kids are ever switching to tobacco […]
Demographic research polling suggests otherwise. Besides, it is gradually becoming more apparent that vaping is very much not a healthy thing to do¹.
1: Just one example of reporting on this issue: https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/sep/08/vapi...
This is from a Dutch newspaper article interviewing one of the researchers from the Trimbos Institute:
> De overstap naar sigaretten met tabak is vervolgens snel gemaakt, zegt Croes. „We horen ook dat de jonkies op het schoolplein vapen, maar dat in de bovenbouw niet meer stoer vinden. Dan gaan ze roken, wat in hun ogen nu weer een positief imago heeft gekregen.” Zo vormen e-sigaretten volgens haar een „enorme tegenkracht” voor campagnes die jongeren van roken moeten weerhouden.¹
(Tobacco) smoking is cool again. The young kids vape, so to be really cool and adult…
1: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2024/10/01/beginnen-met-een-sigare...
I switched to vaping, IDK, 10 or so years ago from an off and (mostly) on cigarette habit and haven't looked back. There was a point where I was spending more on 'cheap' Chinese vape gear than I was on cigarettes but, other than that, no regrets.
And, yes, I'm a middle-aged adult who likes to vape flavors a well.
Perhaps the only downside, if you can even call it that, is I never tried to quit vaping as I enjoy it and it (probably) won't kill me before the lingering effects of a couple decades of smoking, environmental hazards of invading Iraq twice, the skin cancer and whatever else comes up due to my general lack of concern over living a healthy lifestyle.
About 85% of African Americans who smoke use menthol cigarettes, compared to a rate of less than 30% menthol use among white Americans. [1] They're disproportionately advertised and were (in the past) literally given away in poor Black communities to get people addicted.
Basically, policy makers can target their regulations to a specific group by specifying flavor. Sure, an individual white adult might like fruity flavors or menthols, a black adult might like originals, and some kids might prefer original or menthols, but there's a strong statistical bias.
When health departments are trying to address a particular health concern - say, young children smoking - they can do so by targeting fruity flavors. Conversely, when tobacco company marketing departments are trying to advertise their products to Black users without drawing unwanted attention from disproportionately white regulators, they can achieve their goals by promoting menthols. An individual from any population might have any flavor preference, but the dice are shockingly heavily weighted when you're looking at large groups.
[1]: https://datatools.samhsa.gov/das/nsduh/2019/nsduh-2019-ds000...
Also the cultural aspect is just different. It is generally harder for kids to get alcohol in my experience and also you (usually) don’t carry a bottle of 99 bananas and swig it every few minutes out in public.
Perhaps most importantly is that alcohol doesn’t contain nicotine. People get addicted to alcohol but not in the same way people get addicted to nicotine.
It's a new phenomenon that they might (might) be able to tell TikTok or Youtube to estimate the age of individual viewers and limit which topics can appear in advertisements to different age groups.
The existence of the candy flavors and any public marketing of those flavors (even on the label in the store aisle) is implicitly marketing to children.
there is no exception to alcohol for this. Anybody who was a teenager or older in the aughts remembers "alcopops" (might have had a different name depending on where you're from). Lots of countries regulated or raised taxes on mixed drinks because they were seen (probably justifiably so) as targeting teenagers. In Germany it resulted in Smirnoff Ice and some Bacardi mix drink largely going off the shelves.
Nicotine is highly addictive and bad for you health. You pretty much have a customer for life ... which is the point. So next to having something which is bad for you, inhaling glycerol, combined with a substance which is addictive and bad for your health, you also are at a financial loss for life.
And it's targeted at teens ...
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi...
On the rare occasions of exposure by a user exhaling in public next to me I found it worse than passively inhaling cigarette smoke.
That said, tons of other vapes are allowed on the market, so why should Juul specifically be banned?
No comments yet
Tobacco products are insanely harmful.
Alcohol kills hundreds of thousands a year in the US.
But heaven forbid you flavor your nicotine.
What is the actual criteria for FDA approval?