> The Upper Tribunal — having already determined potato granules to be part of the extended potato universe — didn’t like this line of argument, judging that the potato starch and granules must be combined to judge overall potatitude.
Okay, I'm sold. When I have the money, I'll get a subscription to the FT.
On a less jocular note, this article is a good reminder that, contrary to most discussion here on HN, laws aren't algorithms that the powers that be execute against the world, but are rather heuristics that courts have to interpret in the context of specific cases.
intuitionist · 4h ago
The FT is well worth reading (regardless of anyone’s personal beliefs, it’s useful to get a sense of how the wealthy and powerful think by reading their papers) but note that the FT Alphaville blog, which published this piece, is free to read if you create an account (you don’t need to pay).
varispeed · 5h ago
FT occasionally publishes entertaining pieces, but make no mistake - their editorial line inherently favours the ultra wealthy and government perspectives. A classic example is their coverage of IR35, crafted to shield big consultancies from competition, not the taxpayer. They parrot government propaganda, as if their critical thinking faculties mysteriously switch off whenever they touch the topic. They favour policies and narratives that sustain the power of large players, often at the expense of small businesses, freelancers, or challengers. Don't feed the beast.
twic · 4h ago
> IR35, crafted to shield big consultancies from competition, not the taxpayer
I think this is a crank belief, and my guess is that you are an aggrieved ex-contractor. But i would definitely be interested to hear more about this theory.
varispeed · 3h ago
IR35 only applies if the worker owns the business delivering the work. Big consultancies are completely exempt — even when their staff do the same job, in the same client seat, for years. The legislation funnels work away from independents toward large firms - it’s a structural outcome of how the rules are written, all under the false banner of tax fairness. At its core, IR35 was about consolidating control over skilled labour, locking clients into corporate pipelines, and eliminating independent operators who could undercut on price and offer better quality.
cjs_ac · 4h ago
As much as I agree with many of the biases of the Grauniad, I feel increasingly irritated by the blatant pandering to my sensibilities. The 'what happened' part of the article is so short on details it's barely there and the 'analysis' part is almost always just telling me who are the goodies and who are the baddies. If they quote experts, it's always an explanation of the most basic shit, because that's all the journalist understood. All of the non-elite media is like this: the analytics seem to have told them that ragebait is the only thing that gets ad revenue.
I just want to know what's going on in the world, and interesting analysis. I don't want analysis that tells me that I'm a good person, I want analysis that tells me something interesting about the world, even if I don't agree with it. If I have to pay a Bond villain to get that, so be it.
jarym · 4h ago
So, so, true. Even more irksome when the country is faced with massive economic challenges and the politicians make choices that they seek to avoid justifying and do not appear to be in the national interest.
Do you have a recommendation of where one should read?
sph · 6h ago
Reminds me of McVitie's challenge to get the Jaffa Cake on the zero VAT tariff for cakes, even if technically it's a biscuit (that carries a higher VAT rate).
McVitie's won with the astute argument that, unlike other biscuits, when a Jaffa Cake goes stale it becomes hard like a cake, not soft.
In the first tribunal Walkers argued that Sensations are not crisps because:
> They are not ready for human consumption
I understand why they made the argument but I couldn't understand how. I tracked down the judgement from last year:
> Walkers initially argued that the products were designed to be used with dips, chutneys and pickles, and as a side with a meal. On this basis, they contended that the products required further preparation before consumption and so did not fall within Note 5.
> In the hearing, Walkers accepted that there was nothing on the consumer packaging that stated that any preparation was required. It was agreed that the packaging would be required to state any such necessary preparation. We also noted that Walkers’ own promotional material showed people eating the product directly from the package, without any dips etc, and without a meal. On that basis, and in the light of case law on ‘preparation’ in this context, Walkers agreed that they were no longer relying on this argument.
fanf2 · 2h ago
There’s a similar thing with chocolate: cooking chocolate is zero-rated, but VAT is due on eating chocolate. They are basically the same products: the main differences are the packaging (presence or absence of cooking instructions) and where they are shelved (with the cake ingredients or with the sweets).
TheOtherHobbes · 5h ago
I have no comment on the legalities, but I have to insist that the lime and coriander variety are amazing.
comrade1234 · 5h ago
I wonder why the UK has a 20% tariff on potato chips, er I mean crisps. Is it to stop from being overrun by clearly superior Irish crisps (O'Donnells Ballymaloe Relish and Cheddar in particular)?
StevenWaterman · 5h ago
Are you getting confused between tariffs and VAT? VAT is the equivalent of sales tax.
From what I can tell, the tariff on "Potatoes, Thin slices, fried or baked, whether or not salted or flavoured, in airtight packings, suitable for immediate consumption" from Ireland is 14%, reduced to 0% if they originate in Ireland https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/20052020...
fredoralive · 3h ago
It's Value Added Tax, which is basically a sales tax[1], not a tariff (unless you're a certain president who thinks it is?).
The idea is that VAT was supposed to apply to everything equally (AFAIK in most EU countries it does?), but applying it to some things like food, children’s clothes or books was seen as kinda a bad idea when they brought it in for the UK in the 1970s, so they don't have it (technically the do, but at a 0% rate which is a technicality only accountants care about). But with food they didn't want to apply to frivolous luxuries. Which in some cases is fairly obvious (alcohol has VAT), and snacks like crisps are also bourgeois luxuries, so get the full 20% (oh, for the days of 17.5%...). This split does lead to some interesting tax tribunal decisions, so a chocolate covered biscuit does have VAT, but a cake with a chocolate topping doesn't, leading to the famous Jaffa Cake case, or this case about rather crisp like Poppadoms made by a crisp company.
[1] Except a lot more confusing.
petesergeant · 5h ago
> by clearly superior Irish crisps
Here is a map of where they're available in the UK[0]. I think you under-estimate the cut-throat nature and absolute consumer abundance of good crisps in the wider British Isles...
Damn you, that’s going be stuck in my head all day.
comrade1234 · 6h ago
I always thought poppadoms were made from fermented lentil dough, so I looked it up and they're made with basically anything - even potato!
arprocter · 4h ago
My assumption was chickpeas, but evidently anything starchy works
kjellsbells · 4h ago
A papad-like thing can be made from potato flour, but I struggle to equate it to a poppadom since potatoes are not native to the subcontinent. The classic papad is made from urad lentil flour. They are infamously tricky to make from scratch. Anecdotally, all the Indians whose houses I've been to use the brand that has the little boy photo on the sleeve and Lijjat papad brand in Hindi script in big letters across the front.
fredoralive · 3h ago
I suspect the potato choice from Walkers is just because they're a crisp / snack company so it keeps their ingredient pipeline simple.
I probably wouldn't really count these are "real" poppadoms, they're poppadom inspired mostly potato based snacks[1], sold in the crisps isle.
"Ingredients: Corn, vegetable oil (corn and/or canola oil), and salt."
Some of you may have read my story of the Olive Section at Carrefour in Catalonia. The same thing had happened with the same friend when she visited me in Phoenix. She had heard tell of a vast selection of crisp flavours. So we went to the convenience store/Subway/gas station on the corner, where half of the store shelves are chips, dip, and salty snacks. She was impressed and chose two bags, including a chili lime flavour.
And here I sit with the Kalamata olives and the Manchego cheese. Jamón Serrano is not easy to come by; sometimes I settle for Prosciutto.
normie3000 · 7h ago
This article implies that Discos are not crisps. Surely this is madness?
> I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["potato crisps"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the [delicious snack] involved in this case is [quite definitely] that
laidoffamazon · 7h ago
> I care not when you call me big poppadom
Huge credit to whoever came up with this subtitle
dp-hackernews · 2d ago
Quite an amusing account.
AStonesThrow · 4h ago
TIL that Walkers in England is different than Walker’s Shortbread, the latter being the makers of really tasty goods in attractive keepsake tins. I was going to pick one up as a commemoration of King Charles III.
Also, papadums are spelled differently by Indian restaurants around here, because it is, after all, in transliteration.
This was inevitable as mass-produced snack food is influenced and derived from foreign cuisine. Papadums served in a restaurant are about 6” diameter, puffy, thin and delicate. Caraway seeds and other bumps are often noticeable. Always need a good chutney to dip into.
The Indian groceries also sell shelves full of savory crispy snacks that run the gamut. I hope that Walkers can hold their niche amongst cricket fans.
fakedang · 3h ago
There's a lotta different varieties... There are the poppadoms, the small bites which are the subject of the article.
Then there are paapads, which are basically the thin, less bubbly, often nearly plate-sized North Indian variety, often dosed with a smattering of spice. These are fire toasted and are the ones you commonly get at your local Indian for appetizer.
Then there's the South Indian appalam/pappadam which is smaller, made of rice, and often bubbly. Those usually are not spiced and are fried, often to eat with rice meals and not alone.
In some parts of South India like Bengaluru and Calicut, you can even get pappadams made out of jackfruit. These are usually made into conical shapes and are eaten as snacks.
Okay, I'm sold. When I have the money, I'll get a subscription to the FT.
On a less jocular note, this article is a good reminder that, contrary to most discussion here on HN, laws aren't algorithms that the powers that be execute against the world, but are rather heuristics that courts have to interpret in the context of specific cases.
I think this is a crank belief, and my guess is that you are an aggrieved ex-contractor. But i would definitely be interested to hear more about this theory.
I just want to know what's going on in the world, and interesting analysis. I don't want analysis that tells me that I'm a good person, I want analysis that tells me something interesting about the world, even if I don't agree with it. If I have to pay a Bond villain to get that, so be it.
https://commercial.ft.com/audience/
McVitie's won with the astute argument that, unlike other biscuits, when a Jaffa Cake goes stale it becomes hard like a cake, not soft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes#Legal_status
> They are not ready for human consumption
I understand why they made the argument but I couldn't understand how. I tracked down the judgement from last year:
> Walkers initially argued that the products were designed to be used with dips, chutneys and pickles, and as a side with a meal. On this basis, they contended that the products required further preparation before consumption and so did not fall within Note 5.
> In the hearing, Walkers accepted that there was nothing on the consumer packaging that stated that any preparation was required. It was agreed that the packaging would be required to state any such necessary preparation. We also noted that Walkers’ own promotional material showed people eating the product directly from the package, without any dips etc, and without a meal. On that basis, and in the light of case law on ‘preparation’ in this context, Walkers agreed that they were no longer relying on this argument.
From what I can tell, the tariff on "Potatoes, Thin slices, fried or baked, whether or not salted or flavoured, in airtight packings, suitable for immediate consumption" from Ireland is 14%, reduced to 0% if they originate in Ireland https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/20052020...
The idea is that VAT was supposed to apply to everything equally (AFAIK in most EU countries it does?), but applying it to some things like food, children’s clothes or books was seen as kinda a bad idea when they brought it in for the UK in the 1970s, so they don't have it (technically the do, but at a 0% rate which is a technicality only accountants care about). But with food they didn't want to apply to frivolous luxuries. Which in some cases is fairly obvious (alcohol has VAT), and snacks like crisps are also bourgeois luxuries, so get the full 20% (oh, for the days of 17.5%...). This split does lead to some interesting tax tribunal decisions, so a chocolate covered biscuit does have VAT, but a cake with a chocolate topping doesn't, leading to the famous Jaffa Cake case, or this case about rather crisp like Poppadoms made by a crisp company.
[1] Except a lot more confusing.
Here is a map of where they're available in the UK[0]. I think you under-estimate the cut-throat nature and absolute consumer abundance of good crisps in the wider British Isles...
0: https://stores-ballymaloefoods.ie/tesco
Once you've seen it, it's hard to get out of your head.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QduTLFILORY
I probably wouldn't really count these are "real" poppadoms, they're poppadom inspired mostly potato based snacks[1], sold in the crisps isle.
[1] https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/264339339 for an example of the product at a shop.
https://www.pringles.com/en-us/products/pringles-the-origina...
Whilst "dried potatoes" are the top ingredient, they also contain plenty of corn, rice, and wheat products.
Surprisingly, I have found that in the States, the "purest" seeming snack food is Fritos Original Corn Chips:
https://www.pepsicoproductfacts.com/Home/product?formula=LBS...
"Ingredients: Corn, vegetable oil (corn and/or canola oil), and salt."
Some of you may have read my story of the Olive Section at Carrefour in Catalonia. The same thing had happened with the same friend when she visited me in Phoenix. She had heard tell of a vast selection of crisp flavours. So we went to the convenience store/Subway/gas station on the corner, where half of the store shelves are chips, dip, and salty snacks. She was impressed and chose two bags, including a chili lime flavour.
And here I sit with the Kalamata olives and the Manchego cheese. Jamón Serrano is not easy to come by; sometimes I settle for Prosciutto.
Huge credit to whoever came up with this subtitle
Also, papadums are spelled differently by Indian restaurants around here, because it is, after all, in transliteration.
This was inevitable as mass-produced snack food is influenced and derived from foreign cuisine. Papadums served in a restaurant are about 6” diameter, puffy, thin and delicate. Caraway seeds and other bumps are often noticeable. Always need a good chutney to dip into.
The Indian groceries also sell shelves full of savory crispy snacks that run the gamut. I hope that Walkers can hold their niche amongst cricket fans.
Then there are paapads, which are basically the thin, less bubbly, often nearly plate-sized North Indian variety, often dosed with a smattering of spice. These are fire toasted and are the ones you commonly get at your local Indian for appetizer.
Then there's the South Indian appalam/pappadam which is smaller, made of rice, and often bubbly. Those usually are not spiced and are fried, often to eat with rice meals and not alone.
In some parts of South India like Bengaluru and Calicut, you can even get pappadams made out of jackfruit. These are usually made into conical shapes and are eaten as snacks.