This would be a lot better if they cited their sources. As it stands it’s interesting but a bit too easy to dismiss as SEO fodder.
pedalpete · 9h ago
I was considering that, but then I was also wondering what sources I'd be linking to, and what would people actually read.
The point isn't SEO, we're trying to get people to change their thinking around how we approach sleep.
There is links to research in slow-wave enhancement on our website, but the entire post "could" links to references.
But I take your feedback, and I'll be more conscious of adding links to references in future posts.
florbnit · 2h ago
> I was also wondering what sources
General best practice is to link to the sources that you have used. You don’t have to wonder what people might or might not read.
florbnit · 2h ago
> If you’re ready to stop measuring sleep by the clock, and start enhancing the restorative function of sleep, join the waitlist and be the first to experience what functional sleep health can really mean.
Feels like a tldr is “Hi I read some stuff about sleep please give me your e-mail”
al_borland · 9h ago
The author spent a lot of time trashing the idea of 8 hours of sleep, but at least that is something actionable people can do. I can’t set an alarm to wake me up when I’ve had enough spindle activity for the night. 8 hours is given as a benchmark, because that’s how long it takes most people’s brains to adequately do the things mentioned.
If an article is telling me to throw out the rule book on sleep, it needs to offer new and actionable rules. Otherwise, I’m not sure what the point of this was, other than means to harvest email addresses.
pedalpete · 8h ago
What I was attempting to do was change the conversation around sleep. It's a long road.
I'm regularly answering questions from people on Reddit who are saying "I got 8 hours, but I still feel horrible", or "what's going to happen if I don't get 8 hours of sleep". We need to change this entire conversation.
I get the frustration around “where are the new rules", and I probably could have done a better job at recommending a focus on bio-markers, etc. What I’m trying to do is make space for a new direction focused on functional sleep health. That’s what we’re actively building toward.
I wrote this post to explain why we’re working on what we’re working on, and to engage with people who see the world as we do, or open their eyes to a new way of looking at the sleep.
I appreciate you taking the time to comment, is it safe to say the idea struck a nerve, but that you were wanting more?
Just so you know, this isn't a "let's throw up a web-page and see if we can harvest emails", we've been developing this technology for almost 5 years, and it is being used by researchers in clinical studies.
al_borland · 8h ago
Biomarkers are all well and good, but how can those actually be measured on a nightly basis? When I think of measuring these things it involves a lot of sensors and tends to be in a lab environment. Home sleep trackers as we know them today are pretty blunt instruments, and I find even a simple wrist based tracker makes it harder for me to fall asleep, I become very aware of it.
Even if all these markers are measured somehow, what can a person do with that information? I can’t work harder to do any of this stuff, it all happens automatically while sleeping. You mention alcohol can disturb certain systems, but that goes back to standard sleep hygiene rules, which the article was looking to dismiss and move beyond.
So I’m left wondering where all this is going? I’ve struggled with sleep my entire life. The start of the article seemed like it was going to make some big promises, and I’m left with nothing but questions. You’re looking to change the conversation, but I still don’t know what the intended destination looks like.
pedalpete · 7h ago
Great feedback Al, and you hit the nail right on the head "what am I going to do with this information", though, tbh, for many people the data from their sleep tracker leaves them with the same question... "so I didn't get enough deep sleep, what can I do about that".
We have developed a headband that monitors sleep in real-time and increases restorative function. So less of a "what can I change", we ensure the sleep you get is as restorative as possible.
My next post (I think) is going to be about sleep hygiene, and where the current "rules" fit in.
The gist of my thinking here is that sleep hygiene rules don't define how restorative your sleep will be any more than your warm-up defines how good your workout will be. The current thinking around wind-down periods, diet recommendations, etc is the same as a warm-up or fueling yourself for a workout.
We're focused on the workout itself. What makes sleep actually restorative.
Does that make sense?
I've also struggled with sleep my entire life, which is how I got into this space.
I'm sorry the article let you down, but I completely get what you're saying. I had the same concerns before I published it, "am I really saying anything", but I think it's important for us to open this conversation, even though we don't have a solution for YET! We're close, and part of this is to understand who our tribe are, who's looking for this solution, or are we off the mark with the language.
When I speak to many people about what we do, I often hear back "oh, you help people fall asleep", or "you make people get more sleep", it's REALLY hard to get people out of the mentality that more sleep means better sleep.
al_borland · 6h ago
I also find the elaborate wind down routines to be overdone, and most of the ones online seem very performative. Though I do think general lifestyle (diet, activity, etc) likely play a large role and could be looked at through the lens of sleep hygiene.
How is the headband going to increase restorative sleep? Is it expected to compensate for lifestyle issues that could be leading to many issues that people have? You mention you don’t have the solution yet, is the headband more of a hypothesis at this point?
pedalpete · 5h ago
Sorry I wasn't clear, it's not a hypothesis, we have based our technology on over a decade and 50+ papers of peer-reviewed published research, and our tech is currently being used in clinical trials. We link to some of the research on our website, though there is lots more, I'll be redoing the website prior to opening pre-sales, and providing more of the research links there.
When I said "I don't have the solution yet", I meant, we are not for sale in the market yet, so I don't have anything that can help you today.
If you're suggesting "lifestyle issues" are things like, "I've got young children, and the demands of parenthood disrupt my sleep", or "I'm over 40 and my sleep quality just isn't what it used to be", then yes, this is where our capabilities shine. There is currently an issue with our capabilities in the shift-work population, but we may be able to address that prior to launch.
I like to consider these "sleep issues related to lifestyle", than "lifestyle issues".
Is that the sort of thing you were thinking of?
One of the reasons we need to speak of "restorative function" rather than "sleep quality" is that in sleep medicine they refer to sleep quality based on time metrics.
On the sleep hygiene side of things, I don't want to suggest that sleep hygiene isn't important. I used to hate it and think it was over-stated, and I think it is, when you talk about restorative function. However, if you can't get to sleep, you don't have the opportunity for restorative function. Sleep hygiene is the bus that takes you to the gym, it's not the workout.
Nevermark · 1h ago
On the linked page and here you are very wordy about existing advice not being the right way to think about things.
You could use far fewer words by just explaining what you know and are doing explicitly instead of obliquely.
People don’t need to “think differently”, they just need to know what you are doing and why in non-abstract terms.
I don’t know if this is a writing habit issue or a staged reveal issue, but I suggest just being direct.
> Sleep hygiene is the bus that takes you to the gym, it's not the workout.
What am I supposed to do with stuff like this? Nobody would disagree. All the abstract and indirect communication isn’t necessary. It’s just fluff. (IMHO)
However, like millions of other, I am very glad to hear of any activity like yours to find other ways to address sleep issues. I wish you great success.
The point isn't SEO, we're trying to get people to change their thinking around how we approach sleep.
There is links to research in slow-wave enhancement on our website, but the entire post "could" links to references.
But I take your feedback, and I'll be more conscious of adding links to references in future posts.
General best practice is to link to the sources that you have used. You don’t have to wonder what people might or might not read.
Feels like a tldr is “Hi I read some stuff about sleep please give me your e-mail”
If an article is telling me to throw out the rule book on sleep, it needs to offer new and actionable rules. Otherwise, I’m not sure what the point of this was, other than means to harvest email addresses.
I'm regularly answering questions from people on Reddit who are saying "I got 8 hours, but I still feel horrible", or "what's going to happen if I don't get 8 hours of sleep". We need to change this entire conversation.
I get the frustration around “where are the new rules", and I probably could have done a better job at recommending a focus on bio-markers, etc. What I’m trying to do is make space for a new direction focused on functional sleep health. That’s what we’re actively building toward.
I wrote this post to explain why we’re working on what we’re working on, and to engage with people who see the world as we do, or open their eyes to a new way of looking at the sleep.
I appreciate you taking the time to comment, is it safe to say the idea struck a nerve, but that you were wanting more?
Just so you know, this isn't a "let's throw up a web-page and see if we can harvest emails", we've been developing this technology for almost 5 years, and it is being used by researchers in clinical studies.
Even if all these markers are measured somehow, what can a person do with that information? I can’t work harder to do any of this stuff, it all happens automatically while sleeping. You mention alcohol can disturb certain systems, but that goes back to standard sleep hygiene rules, which the article was looking to dismiss and move beyond.
So I’m left wondering where all this is going? I’ve struggled with sleep my entire life. The start of the article seemed like it was going to make some big promises, and I’m left with nothing but questions. You’re looking to change the conversation, but I still don’t know what the intended destination looks like.
We have developed a headband that monitors sleep in real-time and increases restorative function. So less of a "what can I change", we ensure the sleep you get is as restorative as possible.
My next post (I think) is going to be about sleep hygiene, and where the current "rules" fit in.
The gist of my thinking here is that sleep hygiene rules don't define how restorative your sleep will be any more than your warm-up defines how good your workout will be. The current thinking around wind-down periods, diet recommendations, etc is the same as a warm-up or fueling yourself for a workout.
We're focused on the workout itself. What makes sleep actually restorative.
Does that make sense?
I've also struggled with sleep my entire life, which is how I got into this space. I'm sorry the article let you down, but I completely get what you're saying. I had the same concerns before I published it, "am I really saying anything", but I think it's important for us to open this conversation, even though we don't have a solution for YET! We're close, and part of this is to understand who our tribe are, who's looking for this solution, or are we off the mark with the language.
When I speak to many people about what we do, I often hear back "oh, you help people fall asleep", or "you make people get more sleep", it's REALLY hard to get people out of the mentality that more sleep means better sleep.
How is the headband going to increase restorative sleep? Is it expected to compensate for lifestyle issues that could be leading to many issues that people have? You mention you don’t have the solution yet, is the headband more of a hypothesis at this point?
When I said "I don't have the solution yet", I meant, we are not for sale in the market yet, so I don't have anything that can help you today.
If you're suggesting "lifestyle issues" are things like, "I've got young children, and the demands of parenthood disrupt my sleep", or "I'm over 40 and my sleep quality just isn't what it used to be", then yes, this is where our capabilities shine. There is currently an issue with our capabilities in the shift-work population, but we may be able to address that prior to launch.
I like to consider these "sleep issues related to lifestyle", than "lifestyle issues".
Is that the sort of thing you were thinking of?
One of the reasons we need to speak of "restorative function" rather than "sleep quality" is that in sleep medicine they refer to sleep quality based on time metrics.
On the sleep hygiene side of things, I don't want to suggest that sleep hygiene isn't important. I used to hate it and think it was over-stated, and I think it is, when you talk about restorative function. However, if you can't get to sleep, you don't have the opportunity for restorative function. Sleep hygiene is the bus that takes you to the gym, it's not the workout.
You could use far fewer words by just explaining what you know and are doing explicitly instead of obliquely.
People don’t need to “think differently”, they just need to know what you are doing and why in non-abstract terms.
I don’t know if this is a writing habit issue or a staged reveal issue, but I suggest just being direct.
> Sleep hygiene is the bus that takes you to the gym, it's not the workout.
What am I supposed to do with stuff like this? Nobody would disagree. All the abstract and indirect communication isn’t necessary. It’s just fluff. (IMHO)
However, like millions of other, I am very glad to hear of any activity like yours to find other ways to address sleep issues. I wish you great success.