Crazy he wouldn't go for a Bolt. I just bought a 2019 Chevy Bolt w/ 11k miles for $14.5k (so a bit over 10k after federal rebate). It has a brand new battery because all the Bolts were recalled for battery issues. Has around 250m range. Feel like I won the lottery. Still plenty of them available https://www.donohooauto.com/searchused.aspx?Make=Chevrolet&M...
cosmic_cheese · 23m ago
I have a lease end coming up and the Bolt/EUV are on my radar, but one significant advantage that Leafs have is that the lower trims can have their head unit swapped out for a nice Pioneer or Sony unit from Crutchfield, just like is possible with many ICE vehicles, which can get you a nicer infotainment experience (including wireless CarPlay/AA) that isn’t encrusted with rent-seeking gunk.
Workaccount2 · 48m ago
I was so close to pulling the trigger on one of these except for 3 factors: It's driving assist platform is now deprecated and no longer receiving area expansions (I know many could care less), it's charging speed is pretty slow by today's norms, and it will likely retain almost no value as time goes on.
blank_fan_pill · 6m ago
> it will likely retain almost no value as time goes on.
If you're buying a car as an investment I have bad news for you...
nebula8804 · 31m ago
Are you saying SuperCruise on the Bolt stops working or just that they wont expand existing coverage?
This Bolt EUV car drives so damn good. I was very impressed when I drove it.
The Bose audio is also quite good. After testing several new cars, I learned that Bose audio is not implemented the same across manufacturers. For example Mazda Premium Bose is just plain mediocre.
For the price that you can pay for one, Bolt EUV is an amazing deal. Unfortunately the charge speed is a deal breaker for many. But I never forgot how well it handles.
I really hope these cars last, they are a hidden gem and I think a lot wouldnt care about resale value if that charge speed was a bit better.
wffurr · 30m ago
"driving assist platform is now deprecated and no longer receiving area expansions"
What driving assist platform? I don't think the older Chevy Bolts have any such thing. At least I'm pretty sure my 2017 doesn't.
mikepavone · 13m ago
IIRC, the EUV had an option for normal adaptive cruise control, but I don't think any ever had a Super Cruise style option
com2kid · 3m ago
The euv does have a super cruise option, the car next to the one I bought had it. Came into the showroom the day after I signed my paperwork. :(
wlesieutre · 45m ago
If you're worried about self driving features, there's always the option of a Comma AI retrofit
ambicapter · 55m ago
There still are federal rebates?
chelmzy · 50m ago
Until September 30th so better hurry.
rogerrogerr · 32m ago
Note that many HN residents probably have too much MAGI - do your diligence on that tax credit before assuming you qualify.
cosmic_cheese · 8m ago
The way dealerships roll rebates into their advertised prices is incredibly annoying if you don’t qualify. I kind of wonder if prices aren’t being inflated somewhat by dealers being able to put numbers that are ~$10k lower than reality out there.
masklinn · 10h ago
> Lack of standards: For 'L3' DC Fast Charging, the Leaf has a CHAdeMO port. Teslas and many newer EVs have NACS. Then there's CCS1 and CCS2. And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze.
Afaik in Europe, CCS2 is the standard (and mandatory these days), when I rented an EV a few weeks back there was no location which didn’t have it. And all the spots I tried charging at except Tesla accepted card payment (though there were a pair of times it was a struggle getting a card to work).
Apps / memberships will get you cheaper prices but that’s about all I saw (and I didn’t bother with any of it).
TBH the only things that annoyed me were implementation issues of the car (a polestar 4) as well as how overly wide it is. And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter, so I was not able to charge at any wallplug even though I had the opportunity to charge the car at least twice over in all (I will likely purchase one if that remains their policy and I rent more EVs).
All this is modulo it being summer and a pretty long range model so range anxiety was present but reasonably limited.
lucideer · 10h ago
Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based, but I still really felt he could've highlighted that fact more in that charging port standards section.
The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge. So much so even Tesla switched to CCS2. This doesn't help Jeff but certainly one less problem for many readers of his article.
rsynnott · 9h ago
> The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge.
Funnily enough, not for the Leaf! Though it will be on the third generation that's coming out this year. The second-gen Leaf (a ten year old design, at this point) that the author of the article bought doesn't have it. The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_; manufacturers can still sell cars without it, though I think Nissan may be the only remaining one who _does_.
masklinn · 9h ago
> The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_
Right but that’s the most important one. If you have a leaf it means you know you need an adapter always, so while it’s a bit of a hassle to waste space on that there’s no question whether you’ll get a compatible charging plug.
encom · 8h ago
Euro Leaf owner here. No CCS is indeed tiresome, but not a deal breaker. Chademo is still widely available - I haven't bothered buying an adapter.
lucideer · 7h ago
I was more referring to J1772. We don't have NACS in Europe so if you have J1772 you can always charge anywhere.
This does mean Jeff's Leaf would be limited to AC without an adapter, which isn't perfectly ideal, but still better.
randunel · 1h ago
I have a 2nd gen 2019 Leaf in Europe and it came with Type 2 and another one I've never ever used which looks like J1772, both next to each other in the front of the car. No CCS2 here, indeed.
I was under the impression Type 2 was the only European standard.
Ambroos · 10h ago
It's IEC 62196-2 Type 2 (Mennekes) and CCS2 in Europe. J1772 is the North American standard that is used in CCS1.
masklinn · 10h ago
> Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based
That was obvious from the article but given they specifically mentioned CCS2 bundled with the mess that is US charging I thought important to point that (anecdotally) the situations are quite distinct. Both in terms of charging hardware and payment.
Hamuko · 10h ago
Go to your local Mitsubishi dealership in Europe and you will find the 2025 Outlander PHEV with a CHAdeMO plug. And I believe if you buy a pre-2019 Tesla Model S or Model X, you will have to deal with Tesla's own plug.
formerly_proven · 9h ago
I'm guessing it skirts regulations by being a PHEV, since CCS2 is mandatory for DCFC otherwise. Skirting regulations is quite fitting for a PHEV, of course, as that is their raison d'etre.
Hamuko · 9h ago
The outgoing Nissan Leaf also has CHAdeMO and that's a full BEV.
formerly_proven · 9h ago
I assume that's grandfathered in by being originally homologated in 2010.
teamonkey · 7h ago
The incoming Leaf has CCS2
boznz · 19m ago
I also rented a Jeep Avenger EV a few weeks back in the UK, several smaller, out of the way vendors still required their specific App and where contactless payments were an option it more expensive at around 80 to 90 pence per KWH. A week into the hire I found I could use my Tesla app and the supercharger network to charge my rental and the max there is only 51 pence per KWH and the supercharger network is expansive just works. An EV is a good option for the UK if you prefer automatics or EV's I will certainly hire one again.
goldchainposse · 39m ago
I understand how the US and EU have different electrical outlets, voltages and frequencies. The systems developed independently, standardized on compatible versions locally, and standardizing globally would be very expensive and almost impossible to do safely.
I don't understand how North America and Europe settled on different EV charging plugs.
magicalhippo · 7h ago
> And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter
Here in Norway, new EVs are no longer allowed to be sold with AC adapters, due to the potential fire hazard. At least that's the reason I got when I purchased my current EV.
Perhaps a EU thing, wouldn't surprise me.
kingstnap · 1h ago
This seems like the kind of regulation that causes more harm than it saves in anyone's house actually burning down. I did a cursory search and didn't find any EU reports of a house fire caused by a L1 charger.
Sure you might burn a house down if you find one that has a plug which isn't correctly installed with loose connectors but the fire risk here wasn't the EV. Its the incorrectly installed wiring.
You don't tell people to get rid of their fridges because some people might have forgetten to plug theirs in and therefore they could get food poisoning from spoiled food inside.
spicybbq · 37m ago
It could also lead to people buying cheap, potentially defective chargers online instead of getting a more reliable manufacturer-included one.
dreamcompiler · 6h ago
This surprises me, given that almost every country has safer electric plugs than the US. Heat is a function of current and car chargers limit themselves to less than the current the plug is rated for. "Less than" equals 80% in the US.
masklinn · 5h ago
It might be that the average euro is less aware of continuous draw limitations since there’s so much more power normally (compared to US residential power).
Could also be that for historical reasons you could have a house wired for 10 or 13 A and not be aware if it.
‘Course you can manage that by having the chargers limit themselves to 8A default (or even always), at 1800W that’s a very slow trickle but it’s something, and even if it does not fully cover your commute it spaces out carger stops or helps condition the battery on cold mornings.
NewJazz · 1h ago
Norway is not in the EU.
stavros · 8h ago
I can confirm that, here in Greece, everything is CCS2. There are also CHAdeMO ports here and there, but I don't know what car uses those.
However, I haven't seen a station that takes card yet (or they don't advertise it). They all have their own app, which is inconvenient and a hassle.
fifilura · 7h ago
> but I don't know what car uses those
It is exactly this kind of Nissan Leaf. Japanese older generation cars. Enough around to still be available, but I think it is slowly disappearing. After that only 6kW (32A/single phase) charging will be available for these cars.
ZeroGravitas · 9h ago
It's not a lack of standards, it was an early proliferation of standards.
Chademo is still standard in Japan.
Also, given his comparison to the ease of the old way, in Europe at least it's fairly standard to know someone who has filled their hire car with diesel (or not diesel) by mistake. They have warning stickers on the filler flap because it happens so often.
Meanwhile knowing someone who uses the inexplicably more expensive premium fuel option also offered is maybe rarer.
Maybe EV-owning car reviewers should counter the FUD by pretending to be confused by these, always using the most expensive one in price comparisons and then breaking the car completely by using the wrong one during their test drive, like the many propaganda pieces put out about EVs.
masklinn · 9h ago
A big difference is that if you go to a gas station you’ll have both (and possibly more). At least in Europe. So while you need to fill with the right fuel unless the pump is broken or the tanks are empty the fuel you need will be available.
In the US, if you roll up to a random charging station you may or may not find a plug matching your car’s port.
soneil · 7h ago
I think the common mistake they’re alluding to is Europe and north America having conflicting standards for colour-coding the pumps. So here green is unleaded and black is diesel, which can catch American tourists unaware. (Especially so with language barriers, “sans plomb” in French is not intuitively petrol/gas/benzo)
close04 · 7h ago
You can’t easily/accidentally fill a petrol car with diesel. The diesel nozzle is too wide. Other way around is easier. But this is the drawback of ancient standards grandfathered in over a century. EVs don’t have this legacy to carry around.
msh · 6h ago
In many countries charging a car in a wallplug is a fire hazard (they are not rated for the heat).
throwaway-blaze · 4h ago
This doesn't make sense. Wall plugs (like circuit breakers) are designed for a particular max amperage draw. If I have a 10A 120V circuit and wall plug, I can't charge my car at 8A?
I have wall ovens that connect via a 50A circuit. Do I need to worry about fire hazards when I bake something for hours and hours?
Volundr · 4h ago
Not an electrician, consult a real one for any actual electrical work or questions.
It's complicated. Heat builds up over time. So for example your standard 15 amp breaker on a 14 gauge wire in the US is rated for 15 amps of intermittent use, but if you draw that continuously without letting the heat dissipate it becomes a fire hazard. IIRC circuits are generally rated for ~80% of their max load for continuous use, so that 15 amp circuit is considered good for 12 continuous. Or in your 10 amp example 8 should be ok.
Your oven and circuit should be sized such that your long cooks aren't a concern, if you look at it's label you'll probably find it has a max draw of well below 50amps, but if you have actual doubts ask a professional.
Astronaut3315 · 1h ago
Also not an electrician.
A concern for high current outlets in the US, such as NEMA 14-50, is that they weren't necessarily designed for a large number of plug/unplug cycles. Typically you'd plug your stove in and leave it there for years to decades.
If you use the same 14-50 outlet for car charging, which is not uncommon, the contacts can lose their grip over time. End users may want to take their mobile EVSE with them and incur cycles on the outlet. Properly installed but worn 14-50s have been known to melt or even catch fire under these conditions.
End users should prefer to have their EVSE(s) hardwired or installed with a higher grade outlet like Hubbell or Bryant.
That still didn't explain anything. Surely the car could limit itself to 80% of standard socket rated output for continuous draw, like they do in other countries. Are Norwegian outlets commonly installed so far below spec that that will cause them to catch fire? What was the impetus for this regulation?
msh · 22m ago
I don’t know exactly for Norway as that was the best English article I could find. A standard danish outlet (they are crap) is 16A but is not rated for more than 6A if the load is continuous for more than 2 hours.
> And since your car needs so much power stored in its battery to drive, it will probably pull more power than any other electrical appliance in your home.
Probably? No, it pulls less than my dryer which runs at 240V15A I think but also just the same as my 1500W space heater. You can totally control how much power the charger should draw.
> With that much power, there’s a risk of overheating and fire. Unlike a dedicated EV charger, a socket is simply not equipped to handle the amount of electricity needed to charge a car battery.
Wrong assumption leads to wrong conclusion. Any charger you can physically plug in will work in a house that's wired up to standard.
msh · 4m ago
Your dryer will load the socket for far less time than a car charger and will probably not use 15A for the entire drying cycle.
It’s the long charge time that leads to heat buildup, not the max amp.
Where I am from standard outlets can deliver 16A but are not rated for more than 6A if the load is longer than 2 hours.
usui · 10h ago
How can you write "I bought the cheapest EV" in the blog title, and have a section called "Why buy Leaf?" followed by a one-liner zinger aphorism "Price." without writing... the price you bought your used Nissan Leaf for? Someone might want to reference how much it cost back in 2025 a few years down the road.
geerlingguy · 9h ago
$17k minus an extra $2k added to my Camry's trade-in value, and it's eligible for the $4k used vehicle EV tax rebate at the end of the year. So out the door $15k with 36k miles and 94% doh battery, I was satisfied with the deal.
At the end of the tax year I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.
I tacked on the price of the CHAdeMO adapter mentally to the price I offered, since I knew I'd want it for the one or two regional road trips I take per year.
arbuge · 1h ago
Re: the tax credit, note the income requirements here:
I don't know anything about your situation, but I'm guessing quite a bit of the readers here on HN from the US won't qualify.
mtlynch · 1h ago
>The sale qualifies only if:
>You buy the vehicle from a dealer.
This is such an annoying part of the tax incentive.
It's a huge, pointless gift to car dealers (who need no help) because it means they don't have to compete for price with private sellers or buyers. If I have a used EV to sell, I basically have to sell to the dealer because no buyer wants to bother buying from me when they can get the same thing from a dealer with a $4k tax credit on top.
bradly · 1h ago
For another data point... I purchased a used 2011 Leaf for $5k a few years ago and still use it as my daily driver. It gets between ~50-70 miles per change and changes incredibly slow, but I'm been happy with it.
brightball · 1h ago
The deals on used electric vehicles are pretty shocking.
Used Chevy Volts are actually more expensive now than they were a few years back, at least on the CarMax website. Maybe a higher price because they were discontinued but I used to love my Volt. Averaged 150mpg over 3 years.
leesec · 1h ago
kind of nuts since a used tesla is within 5k of this
pbronez · 4h ago
BMW i3 are going for about the same.
lagniappe · 1h ago
and they're an absolute -nightmare- to maintain.... even with that being the case i still want one because russ hannaman had a point- everyone loves a car with doors that open like this \[]/ not like this =[]=
klardotsh · 1h ago
My 2017 i3 REX is just fine. It needs new tires before winter hits, an alignment (it gets knocked way out really easily, especially if you've ever taken it on a less than perfect road. Washington State has many such roads), and I should probably proactively do an oil change on the REX. Oh, and drivers seat heater has a short so doesn't work (the fix from BMW would be prohibitively expensive, but I may try a DIY re-wire).
Otherwise, this car is as close to a perfect daily driver I've ever owned. I hope it lasts forever: not a single touchscreen, no OTA updates, decent battery range (and DC Fast Charging at 60kW+), gas engine to fall back on (with OBD-II programming you can enable Hold State of Charge on the NA models allowing you to truly treat the i3 as a proper series-hybrid and not just an emergency limp-along range extender that will crap out going up a hill in the cold), comfy seats, and did I mention NO TOUCHSCREENS and NO OTA UPDATES?
thijson · 24m ago
I just took mine on a fairly long trip, around 370 miles. I used the hold charge feature once the battery reached 75%. It was fun to drive through a hilly region, the battery got me up the hill, then the engine plus regen charged it back up to the set point on the way down the hill. I liked that I didn't have to touch the brakes.
The fuel tank is quite small, but it doesn't take long to fill.
Overall fuel consumption was around 6-8 gallons for the trip.
dzhiurgis · 8h ago
Could've bought Model 3 for this and spend $300 for third party buttons. It has software thats actually somewhat hackable and car is far more capable. But I understand it's hard to recommend Tesla these days lol.
alchemist1e9 · 7h ago
Ignoring any PR or political motivations, I’d argue the Leaf is a better choice for many people. I’m biased as I have one, quite similar, but let me give a pros from my perspective:
- a traditional car feeling, knobs, buttons, the way cars have been for decades prior
- very very reliable. basically never needs anything except wiper fluid. no software updates or crashing. I don’t have stats but might be one of most reliable cars
- compact and easy to park
- compatible with comma.ai
- LeafSpy diagnostics to monitor it
- nice hatchback format with fold down rear seats
- ~220 mile range is plenty for around town use and trickle charge overnight
Overall I’m very happy with it and while constantly tempted by Teslas I think I wouldn’t like them as much.
geerlingguy · 6h ago
Also CarPlay, which was on my shortlist of features I actually cared for in any newer car. Silly of Tesla to not support it out of the box (IMO).
lotsofpulp · 2m ago
I thought not having Carplay was a dealbreaker, then I tried shopping other brands and they wanted $15 to $25 per month for remote start, so I went with Tesla. Plus Tesla had dash cam recording, which somehow no one else has yet? And of course, don’t have to deal with a stupid dealer with Tesla, just bought sitting on the couch at home.
Anyway, not having CarPlay has not been an issue. Although, it would have been nice to have.
dzhiurgis · 5m ago
CarPlay is trash tho. Had a rental again last weekend. It’s core feature - google maps wrapper - is just barely useable. Sure it does other things, but it’s not worth the hassle.
mbreese · 6h ago
After dealing with Tesla service, I’d also put having a large and varied dealer network with potential third party service locations as a plus for the Leaf. The word potential is doing a lot of work here - having competitive service options is still an EV issue, IMO. But Tesla service is expensive and difficult to navigate. Texting with a mechanic can work, but a quick 2 min conversation with a person would have saved me multiple headaches. Part of the cost issue may be the ways the cars are built vs the actual shop costs, but parts costs for repair are likely to be higher for a Tesla, even with volume. I suspect getting a Leaf serviced should be easier/cheaper.
dzhiurgis · 3m ago
Tesla parts are notoriously cheap and you aren’t forced to use Tesla service.
vannevar · 6h ago
Could also have bought a used Chevy Bolt in this price range, with CCS, ~250mi range, and CarPlay.
loloquwowndueo · 9h ago
You could jump into your local used car listing site and check for yourself.
In here a used 2022 leaf goes for about $20-22K CAD. 2016 models go as low as $8K - those had a range of about 120km when new.
dzhiurgis · 8h ago
In NZ you can get a Leaf for $1-2k, about 50km range remaining.
mrkstu · 1h ago
50k is equivalent to driving around with a low fuel warning constantly on your dash
klardotsh · 1h ago
I'm guessing distances in NZ are shorter, or you're only planning to use that vehicle in the urban city core. Here in the US, 50km range barely gets me to the ferry terminal to get into Seattle, and that's assuming 50km is at 55mph rural highway speeds and isn't assuming I'm driving 25mph in the city.
Put otherwise: if the battery is so degraded you only get 30mi/50km range out of it, I see why it's selling for $2000.
anotheryou · 9h ago
I skimmed for way to long to realize it's just not in there...
declan_roberts · 1h ago
I drove a 2015 Nissan Leaf for almost 10 years before upgrading this year to a Model Y.
When it comes to charging network Tesla is SO MUCH BETTER. It's hard to describe how much of a wild west other charging networks are. You have to download this app or that app, add a credit card here, add one there. De-rated charging handles absolutely everywhere.
regnull · 1h ago
To be fair, non-Tesla networks are catching up. I moved from Tesla to BMW i4 (I had a quite significant disagreement with Elon when it comes to international politics), and I was worried about finding non-Tesla charges. I took a few long distance trips so far (US Northeast), and I had zero problems. Plus, if you are lucky, you get 2 year free charging from BMW, and they've enabled plug-and-charge recently. So, you just plugin, charge and drive away, mostly for free. Not bad.
I bought a 2012 for $7500 in 2016 and drove it for several years.
1. chargers suck. there was evgo, blink, chargepoint. Most locations had 1 or most 2 DC fast chargers, but frequently they didn't work or were busy. Not reliable.
2. range was less that expected, even if you update expectations. It takes engineering to use the range you have, especially taking #1 into account. You don't want to get to a fast charger at 1% then find it doesn't work.
3. the battery health wasn't great, but because the battery capacity/range was less, the number of battery cycles was significantly more. I charged to a higher %, discharged low each day, and cycled daily.
4. the leaf was a perfect "around town" car. Not for trips.
Tesla has basically solved all of this and their cars are usable like a regular car*
* don't be pedantic, in 99% of situations/locations
nartho · 8m ago
A while ago I bought an older leaf because I had an expensive commute. Battery was ok when I bought it but it degraded very quickly. Doing my commute in winter with the heater and radio off going 10 under hoping to make it to my job where I could charge it was not fun.
I now own a corolla hybrid and I enjoy cheap commutes without the fear of running out of juice
thorncorona · 31m ago
+1 i was thinking of getting a bolt but it’s not a viable option if you like doing road trips.
either you get 2 cars or a fast charging ev. i chose the latter
matthewaveryusa · 6h ago
I literally bought the cheapest EV:
400 dollars for a 2012 nissan leaf with 80% battery life and 80k miles (saved from being junked.)
MA taxes and delivery made it about 1k when it was all said and done. Insurance is 400/year.
We fit 3 kid seats in the back and have replaced all our metropolitan rides with the nissan. Ostensibly we are all < 6ft tall otherwise the 3 seats wouldn't work.
Our range is 60 miles in the summer, 50 in the winter. Because of how we use it a regular 15 amp plug works for us. Any long trip is taken with our 2018 honda HRV + Thule.
I've been monitoring the usage of our gas car and financially it makes more sense for us to rent a gas car for our trips rather than pay for the ownership + insurance of our car. The math on yearly ownership of the gas car is:
555 treasury yield when selling the car (15000 * 0.05 on a 30 less 30% taxes),
1200 insurance,
200 yearly maintenance (oil changes, amortized tires...),
375 excise tax,
40 inspection
That's about 2.2k/year or about 4 weeks of rental for an SUV. We're still holding on to the gas car for the impromptu apple picking/beach day/day trip that sets us over the 50 mile radius, but zipcar could fill that void
The second hand market for EVs is getting pretty interesting. There are lots of EV owners that are replacing their EVs every few years and because of all the growth over the last 10 years, there are now quite a few fairly nice EVs on the second hand market. Many are typically still under drive train warranty. For example, the model 3 has only been on the market for about eight years and it came with eight years of warranty on the drive train. So, most of the second hand ones would still be under warranty. And most of the EV market only started growing after that. So this is true for many second hand EVs.
And car batteries don't seem to spontaneously stop working right after the warranty expires either. So the risk is fairly low. They'll eventually degrade. But if you can pick up a car for a few thousand and then drive it for another 5-10 years, who cares? The fuel savings alone pay for the car after just a few years. Add the savings on maintenance and you are basically in the plus.
ACCount37 · 1h ago
Always check if that suspiciously cheap second hand EV you're buying had active battery cooling.
A lot of the crap like the early Nissan Leafs didn't. And between that and the first gen EV battery pack design being shit in general, the battery pack just cooks itself. Its capacity falls off a cliff over time. This is where a lot of those early concerns about EV battery packs being hideously expensive consumables was coming from.
If the battery pack is actively cooled, then, as a rule, it ages gracefully. If not? Oh boy.
t_tsonev · 52m ago
This is not a general rule and many non-cooled and air-cooled batteries can hold up pretty well. The battery cooling becomes a limiting factor for DC charging, especially if multiple charging sessions are required per trip.
The Leaf limited battery life is mainly to its battery chemistry (LMO), although it arguably doesn't go to great lengths to ensure thermal stability of the pack.
sillyfluke · 9h ago
Don't really follow the secondhand EV market, but it seems to me firsthand buyers are still taking on considerable risk due to the range situation. People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full. Following this advice, one person I know told me if they drive like they did their old car they have to recharge after roughly 170 miles, which is super annoying for them if they're driving over 500 miles on a trip. They regret buying the car they bought. When and if there is a sudden jump in range innovation that reaches the entire market and not just flagship brands, I don't see how these cars driven now won't be dead weight or dirt cheap. It seems super risky to keep one of these cars more than a couple of years.
marcusb · 8h ago
I've driven an EV on 500 mile trips. Getting out and stretching your legs for 20-25 minutes once every three hours isn't "super annoying." If all I did was drive around all day, every day for 500 miles at a stretch, it might be, but not nearly as annoying as routinely driving for 500 miles.
For most people, the vast majority of their driving takes place well within the range of the typical BEV and range anxiety is a total non-issue. The fact is, even accounting for the occasional long trip, I spend less time at charging stations than I did at gas stations when I owned an ICE car, because the vast majority of the time, I just plug the car in at my house and let it do its thing.
sillyfluke · 7h ago
>Getting out and stretching your legs for 20-25 minutes once every three hours isn't "super annoying."
Nothing done by choice is annoying obviously. But a lot of people are fine with stretching their legs on a five minute bathroom break. Adding an extra an hour or hour half for unwanted stops due to forced recharging is what annoys them.
marcusb · 7h ago
> Nothing done by choice is annoying obviously.
Right, so that covers approximately 100% of EV owners.
nottorp · 8h ago
This is tiring. Not everyone lives in the suburbs with a plug at ground level and getting out and stretching your legs is great when you choose where you do it but not when you do it in the queue for charging...
mbreese · 5h ago
EVs (or having a car in general) aren’t for everyone. Or aren’t for everyone yet.
But you’re now talking about the lack of adequate charging infrastructure in an urban setting. That’s a different conversation. It’s a worthy conversation, but not all that related to making 500 mile road trips.
This summer I made two 500 mile trips (round trip each time) to drop off (and pick up) a kid at a summer camp. It was a week long camp, so I drove up and back on two weekends. I drove an electric car up the first time and a hybrid SUV up the second time.
It was fine to do in my electric car. I spent about 5 minutes making sure I had a good charging plan, which turned out to add about 10-15 extra miles to the trip. It wasn’t a problem to stop to charge, and I really wanted to stop to eat and stretch when I needed to charge, so everything worked out well timing wise. The trip in the hybrid was a little faster, but not by much. I still stopped the same number of times regardless of what car I drove.
Note: I would have happily had made the trip in my EV both times, but I had another person with me for the second trip. She hated the seats in my EV, so we took the car with more comfortable interior for the second trip. The trip in the hybrid was “nicer”, but that was because it was a more comfortable car in general, not because of the difference between an EV and hybrid.
marcusb · 7h ago
Maybe its tiring for you. What’s tiring for me is that in every single one of these threads, people bring up the most extreme, outlier situations (500 mile trips) as a cudgel against EVs.
shrubble · 1h ago
It’s not an outlier for a lot of people in the USA or the western part of Canada.
marcusb · 23m ago
Citation please. It takes over seven hours to drive 500 miles non-stop at 70mph. I’d love to see a credible source that documents “a lot” of people are routinely driving this far in their personal vehicles.
msh · 5h ago
I have never been in a queue for charging in my 5 years of ev ownership. This includes 3 long roadtrips (Denmark to southern France so 1800 km to 2200 km each way) during summer vacations.
masklinn · 9h ago
> People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full.
You want to keep batteries roughly in that range to maximise their lifetime health. That doesn't mean the battery will explode if you do otherwise once in a while e.g. you charge limit the car to 80% for your daily drive and before a big trip you charge to 100%.
Route planners will generally keep you in that band anyway because charging speeds fall off a cliff as charge exceeds 80~90% (depending on the manufacturer's usable % standard), and it's rarely worth wasting 30mn charging to full to save 5~10mn extra at the next stop (the same occurs to a lower extent at very low states of charge, plus you want some spare, so the lower 10% are generally treated as a reserve).
guenthert · 6h ago
> You want to keep batteries roughly in that range to maximise their lifetime health.
Huh? The car isn't doing that for you? Prius hybrids sure are (the old ones using NiMH batteries tried to keep charge between 40% and 80%).
masklinn · 5h ago
A hybrid can do that by running the ICE (or not).
An EV can do that how exactly, refusing to run? Mugging the elderly for loose kWh?
asdff · 44m ago
No need to get sarcastic. My phone and laptop have this feature.
guenthert · 5h ago
Well, stopping the car at 40% (20% for Li-ion) capacity or alternatively at 0% with dead batteries, I know what I prefer (ideally there would be an option for emergencies, perhaps disabled in rental cars ;-} .
stavros · 8h ago
I keep the car at 20-80% when at home and driving around the city, I charge once a week. Before a trip, I let it charge to 100%, then charge to 80% on the trip (otherwise you waste time on the slow parts of the charge cycle).
It's really not a hassle at all. What's a hassle right now is finding a charger, as there aren't enough fast ones along the trip, but I've had the car for a year and have never needed to do a trip that long yet.
sillyfluke · 8h ago
Just to clarify, the hassle is needing mutiple recharges on a longish trip, not urban driving. The regret is due to unmet expectations based on advertised range as opposed to pratical range.
stavros · 8h ago
No, I know, I was just kind of detailing the general experience. Urban driving is entirely seamless (I exclusively charge at home), long trips are the only slightly inconvenient bit, but I ~never do those.
BobaFloutist · 4h ago
I mean the funny thing is that I've never driven or wanted a car with more than a 10-gallon tank, so my "ICE" (it's a Prius, so it actually does better than a full ICE car would) range is already <400 miles. Having to stop at a "gas station" for 30 minutes instead of 10 minutes every 4-6 hours really doesn't seem like that big of an ordeal, especially since I'm probably going to be stopping for meal breaks on that interval anyway. And if you just need a top-off to make the last 100 miles rather than a full charge, you can probably do it in 10-15 minutes anyway, right?
rogerrogerr · 18m ago
Less than 10-15 minutes in a decent car. Tesla charges at 200kW+ in the lower SoC ranges; that’s approaching 1000 mph.
blitzar · 9h ago
> recharge after roughly 170 miles ... these cars won't be dead weight or dirt cheap
The average car journey is 8 miles. Being an average with a finite lower limit of 0 it is skewed higher by the people who for various reasons drive long distances.
You don't need a 1,000 mile range to get to the shops at the end of the street. It helps, but not that much.
spiffytech · 7h ago
The magnitude of person-to-person variation makes it tough to get signal out of averages.
I read a blogger say a 40-mile trip is exceptionally log for him, so why worry about EV range?
Meanwhile we put 160 miles on our EV yesterday doing ordinary errands that all got stacked on the same day. 100+ mile days happen a few times a month for us¹.
That 160 miles is 65% of our 0–100 range, or 108% of the 20–80 range. And we have a level 1 charger, so it'll take 26 hours in the driveway to recoup that charge.
¹ In my area a normal daily commute is 30–40 miles round-trip. Throw in some extra errands, or two people sharing a car, and you don't have to be an outlier to routinely have 100+ mile days.
jghn · 5h ago
I am not intending this as a backhanded way of suggesting your experience is invalid. I get that it's quite possible in some areas.
However, I think the point of the GP is that the number of people who say this is their typical experience is going to be larger than the number of people for whom it actually is their typical experience.
By that I mean: your story is quite common in discussions like this, both online and offline. Yet, if the mean distance is 8 miles, and we know it's going to be skewed high due to the 0 bound, it can't be all that common.
To be honest, I'd be curious to see the median here.
spiffytech · 5h ago
That's fair. FWIW my city lists the mean commute time as 23.6 minutes, p90 26.6. Travel in my area is dominated by freeway arteries, so 15-ish miles each way is a fair estimate for the mean.
A typical Bay Area commute (e.g. to SJ or San Mateo/Redwood City) is 40+ miles one way. A typical weekend drive (e.g. to Half Moon Bay or Sonoma) is a 100-mile roundtrip.
potato3732842 · 9h ago
You can screech about averages and means all you want but the fact of the matter is that if you're exceeding your vehicle's capabilities on a weekly or monthly basis the inconvenience of ownership goes up exponentially. I do 100mi/day but I all but need the ability to make that 200 on a weekly basis and am doing a 300 on a monthly basis. With charging at work and home those numbers become 50, 150 and 250 between charges. So a "nicer" electric car is doable in the summer for me but it still falls on its face when those longer trips involve substantial cargo.
So yeah, I'll keep driving rusted out minivans that make people clutch their pearls.
For people who just want a dedicated commuting vehicle used EVs with 80% battery are a pretty good option.
CraigJPerry · 6h ago
Maybe you're just richer than the average person, that affluence buys you a lot of convenience that others can't access.
It's easy to forget the budget issues faced by many families when you're not facing that constantly yourself, but it's basically an existential consideration for a not insignificant proportion of the population.
You're circa $1700/year more expensive in fuel with your minivan[1] than with a comparably sized EV.
Your 5 hour / 300 mile journey takes around 30 mins more in the EV end to end (time spent stationary at a charger somewhere near the mid point of your route). Equiv of driving at 55mph average vs 60mph average over that time. I'd happily use the time to drink a flask of tea i brought with me and then go for a comfort break.
[1] assuming $4.80/gallon in a 25mpg minivan, vs an inefficient EV that only averages around 2mi/kwh at $0.30/kwh. Obv the 1700 excludes servicing, tyres and depreciation
What is that even supposed to be a rebuttal to? I didn't complain about the longevity of small EVs (they're generally quite good in that regard).
Not to pick on you personally but I think it speaks volumes about the type of people who make up HN community that I can come in here with a fairly narrow and niche critique of a product (inflexibility basically), hedge that comment with a "but it's still good for a lot of people" statement and a bunch of act like I'm dismissing the entire product category and then act like completely tangential things disprove that. It's like I've offended a religion.
noelwelsh · 3h ago
> You can screech about averages and means all you want
> So yeah, I'll keep driving rusted out minivans that make people clutch their pearls.
These antagonistic statements are unnecessary and the reason you are being downvoted.
thinkcontext · 8h ago
> I do 100mi/day
You are an extreme outlier, you should wait until the technology develops further. To use your parlance, no need to screech about people clutching their pearls at you.
ZeroGravitas · 6h ago
Counterintuitively, driving a lot of miles regularly on a daily basis is pretty much ideal for switching to EV as you maximise fuel savings (and minimise pollution if you care about that).
This has different impacts depending on your local gas to electricity price ratio.
It's his weekly and monthly longer trips that complicate matters but in many jurisdictions he'd still be saving enough to make it worthwhile.
gambiting · 9h ago
I mean, I don't disagree with you. But a lot of people have two cars if both adults work and have to drive to work - so it makes perfect sense for the second car to be electric. We have a little VW e-Up with "just" 120-150 miles of range and in day to day use we never get anywhere close to running out. In fact my wife uses it to commute every day and we charge it once a week from a regular plug at home. It saves considerable amount of money over a petrol Polo she had before, to a point where the car pays for itself(almost). But yeah, we also have another car(a PHEV Volvo) that we use for long trips.
elif · 8h ago
I did a 6500 mile ev road trip and battery capacity means next to nothing. All that matters is the charging curve between 3% and 60%. Literally all other variables disappear over a road trip.
sillyfluke · 7h ago
Nice tip. Are there lots of cars with shittier ranges but sota 3-60% charging curves? What is your acceptable target number for this metric?
ZeroGravitas · 5h ago
The P3 Charging Index attempts to quantify this, and also documents progress over the years as they've been publishing it for 6 years now:
> When and if there is a sudden jump in range innovation that reaches the entire market and not just flagship brands
I've read/heard about this innovation coming to the market in six months every few weeks for about ten years and it has never materialized. There are continuous, slight and consistent improvements to battery technology which add up over time, but none of the wunderwaffe battery technologies ever materialized into the market and produced any huge jumps.
KaiserPro · 9h ago
Yeah that was basically my assesment.
I bought a second hand Zoe in the UK mainly because they are so common, which means parts should be still around for a while yet.
the leaf was an option, and I could have bought and upgraded the battery on an old one, but I think on balance the zoe was a better purchase for the same combined price. (for me, your mileage may vary)
In terms of practicality, for where I live (suburban, edge of a large city) it works perfectly well. We also fairly regularly do longer journeys, assuming its not getaway rush hour, charging is fine on motorways and crucially getting better
gambiting · 9h ago
We bought a VW e-Up here in the UK for the same reason - it shares all non-drivetrain parts with regular Ups so spare parts should be available forever and it's a very easy car to work on. Its easy 120-150 mile range is perfect for day to day use, I just charge it at home overnight. And I actually took it on a trip to the lake district few weeks back, no problem at all - 30 minute stop at a fast charger on the M6 both ways gave me way more juice than needed to get to my destinations. And it has an 8 year warranty on the battery, and VW lets me extend the main warranty for £200 a year, and a service is only due once ever 2 years and costs £90. What's not to like lol.
actionfromafar · 10h ago
Big Asterisk on the maintenance though.
blitzar · 9h ago
For £2,000 the maintenance plan is sending it to the scrap yard.
Gordon Gekko would buy it, break it into its constituent parts and sell them off for £5,000.
jampa · 1h ago
> And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods.
I rented a PHEV in Spain, and this was the biggest issue. Every charger has an app. They want all your information, even your home address, before charging. Most of them error out after you try to make it work in the 44 °C / 110 °F Spanish sun.
After trying five charging apps and only succeeding in one, I gave up charging completely because of the horrible experience. I wonder why EVs don't save credit information in the vehicle and negotiate payment with them via some sort of "Cable API" or something. Or even you know, use tap to pay PoS like every normal transaction does.
duskwuff · 1h ago
"Plug and charge" is a thing, and is supported by some vehicles and charging stations. Unfortunately, it's not universal (yet), but the standards are there.
cheema33 · 1h ago
This is my experience as well with regular EV chargers. Tesla chargers on the other hand work seamlessly and reliably. You walk up, you plug it in and it works. No fuss.
Bairfhionn · 10h ago
My Problem was always the Range Anxiety.
Until I got an EV and realized it's not really an issue. There is always an App for that (and even on my car the software gets improved in that regard).
Infrastructure is getting better, even companies starting to see it as a benefit to have cheap/free chargers at their offices to get people back.
I see more and more electric trucks on the roads. It feels good.
PaulKeeble · 8h ago
I think until you have one you don't realise quite what having a range of 200+ miles means in practice. You don't actually drive for 500 miles without a break, that is 8-10 hours of constant motorway speed driving and its not safe to drive that long. So when you take 30 - 60 minutes for lunch on a long drive like that and charge the vehicle you are going another 200 miles before again really taking a break. As it stands the breaks will have to be a bit longer than you might like and it could add 30 minutes to your journey but that is about it for most people.
The other part that not a lot of people realise is if your journey is 300 miles and your car does 200 you don't charge another 200 miles into the battery, you charge 100 and then charge at the destination instead. With ICE vehicles if your going to get fuel typically you fuel it to the top but you don't do that with battery cars you want to charge them as little as possible while mid travelling and charge them while they are sat still at home or destination.
Its charging at home that really changes the experience too. The weekly trip to the fuel station disappears, depending on how often you exceed the range of the car you only really get exposed to the charging network and times when doing those journeys, you spend a lot less of your life in fuel stations!
laughing_man · 19m ago
I agree with you on the drive time. A buddy of mine has a Model X, and he occasionally will make the 400 mile drive to visit. He stops about halfway to stretch his legs and eat lunch, the same thing he did when he had an ICE powered SUV. The only difference is now the car is charging while he eats.
hellisothers · 3h ago
I would add one thing my family has complained about wrt road trip charging is it’s not just the time you wait to charge, it’s the time and games/anger dealing with all the people in line waiting to charge.
asdff · 42m ago
And this is with marginal EV adoption. Imagine if it was full scale the headaches that would come. I mean think of the current amount of gas stations around, that would be insufficient to cover EV demand due to the fact EVs need to linger for so much longer. So good bye to whatever in your town needs to be destroyed in order to park more cars and charge them. So much for walkable cities.
richwater · 1h ago
> that is 8-10 hours of constant motorway speed driving and its not safe to drive that long
[citation needed] considering plenty of people do it all the time (truck drivers)
laughing_man · 17m ago
Aren't truck drivers required to take breaks by law?
fusslo · 7h ago
is there a term like 'charge anxiety'?
I was debating an electric vehicle in 2023. There are maybe 10 people (out of about 200) at work that have electric cars. My teammate is one of the ten. He wakes up early to get a charger. He tracks down the other owners to ask them to use the charger after lunch. They started a group chat about the chargers.
My local grocery store has a bank of superchargers right in the middle of the parkinglot next to the main road. Some days the bank is full and teslas hang out waiting, but they have to wait half in the road to make sure they're close enough to be next in line.
My apartment complex has 2 chargers, and we get people coming in who don't live in the complex to use them. People wait next to the strangers to be sure to get the charger before walking home for the night.
This kind of social interaction and situations gives me huge anxiety.
I get gas once a week, dont wait in line, always works, don't talk to anyone, and I'm gone in less than 5 minutes.
decimalenough · 6h ago
EV charging is hassle-free if and only if you have a home charger, which typically means you have to own a house as well.
Workplace charging gets extra competitive because it's often free, meaning all sorts of bad behavior is incentivized. It's weird how wound up people with $50,000 cars can get about $5 in free electricity.
joeyh · 6h ago
I have driven 20 thousand EV miles in the past year, with 50% of my charging being at public chargers (and 50% at home). I have never needed to wait in line, and have never needed to interact with anyone regarding charging.
No comments yet
jgilias · 6h ago
I only got an EV after getting a house for this exact reason. I really like EVs, but I wouldn’t buy one, if I don’t have a convenient place for routine charging.
An apartment complex being built next door offers you to buy a parking lot together with the apartment, and optionally equip it with an EV charger. This is the way.
ruperthair · 7h ago
I have the same issue with a lack of charging at home, and totally identify with what you say here. The lack of an organised queue (could be in the provider's app, rather than a physical one) at oversubscribed charging stations is the worst thing about EV driving for me.
dreamcompiler · 5h ago
EVs make less sense for people who don't have a dedicated home or work charger. But if you're lucky enough to have one, EVs make a great deal of sense.
Xenoamorphous · 10h ago
* Limiting the number of QCs (Quick Charges / DC Fast Charge), as this heats up the uncooled Leaf battery, degrading it slightly each time, especially on hotter days
* Keeping the charge between 50-80% when manageable
* Charging up to 100% at least once a month, and letting it 'top off' to rebalance the pack for at least a few hours afterwards
* Not driving like a maniac, despite having more torque in this car than I've ever had in any of my previous cars
This kind of thing (minus the driving like a maniac bit) is what puts me off EVs. I guess it's unavoidable? My experience with laptop and phone batteries (holding much less charge pretty quickly) doesn't help. My phone (iPhone 12) says battery health is at 81% but it doesn't feel like it so I'm not sure I'd trust that Leaf saying it's got 93%.
guepe · 10h ago
This is completely avoided and not my experience.
This is only because the leaf is not actively cooled.
Most ev do not suffer from such difficult management of battery and have a computer dedicated to cool / heat and keep battery in healthy temps.
They do degrade over time but very, very slowly. Absolutely not like phones.
Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet.
formerly_proven · 9h ago
Even then the Leaf stands out with seemingly unusually high battery degradation compared to the uncooled battery competitors from 2014.
dzhiurgis · 8h ago
Not a battery expert, but I did recently look at using old leaf battery cells to build home battery. Their modules are 2s2p which make them impossible to balance.
gambiting · 9h ago
A VW e-Up(and its siblings, Skoda Citigo EV and Seat Mii Electric) all have passively cooled batteries but owners don't report much if any battery degradation even on the first gen models which are over 10 years old now. I can only assume it's the battery chemistry or cell composition compared to the Leaf. Our own is 4 years old and I haven't noticed any range loss compared to when it was new.
arpinum · 8h ago
Could be due to American climate and Leafs getting sold heavily in America. Jeff lives in a place hotter and sunnier than Málaga. Cars can roast in their huge unshaded parking lots with black tarmac.
dzhiurgis · 8h ago
> Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet.
Let me guess - Hyundai? They are notoriously lying about degradation.
guepe · 8h ago
Rivian
I think it’s eating the extra buffer but that also means that the worse degradation that happens in first year is « free ».
Then stats are a few percents per 100k miles….
There are articles about stats on long term degradation - it’s a non issue. Buy used if you can in USA - people perceive them as degraded so price is cheap but they don’t degrade fast
carstenhag · 10h ago
This is, as the title mentions, the cheapest EV. It's really old. It did not have tech that pretty much all EVs have nowadays.
Nowadays you don't have to do this. You can. Just like with your phone or laptop.
nicce · 10h ago
> It's really old.
Funny, how 2 years old car is really old. For combustion engines, old is like 15+?
EVs will have the same problems as mobile phones. Maybe manufactures want that. But software will define the age of your car and I don’t like it. What if the car requires internet connection and the company dies?
rsynnott · 9h ago
For practical purposes it is a 15 year old design; it had a minor update 8 years ago, but was not brought up to date with the norms of the time (in particular, the passively cooled battery).
This was the very first mass-market electric car, with only minor tweaks. It's not surprising that it's a bit rough around the edges. That's part of why they're cheap second-hand (along with the fact that the 3rd gen, which actually is a proper redesign, is coming out this year).
nicce · 8h ago
I don't think that we can use the general "old" here. The statement should have been more explicit and include the design of the battery.
If the model gets even minor updates, manufacturing is happening right now, the car is either good enough or new enough in general, and we cannot use old as negative quality.
Electric motors existed before the combustion engine, and people keep talking about "rapidly evolving area", while the only thing that is rapidly evolving and specific to EVs is the power source. A battery, to be precise. It is all about battery, and nothing else.
rsynnott · 7h ago
The problems with this car are all around the battery pack (though honestly these problems are a little exaggerated). The battery pack is, for practical purposes, a 15 year old design. This car is no longer made. When it was being made, it was the only electric car you could buy with such an old battery pack design.
Buying a 2nd-gen Leaf in 2025 would be a bit silly, unless you were getting a major discount.
illegalsmile · 5h ago
I have a 2025 2nd gen on lease because the deals in Colorado were insane and the previous cost of my gas basically pays for the lease + insurance + electricity. That said, unless they give me a killer deal with a major discount at the end of the lease it's going back to the dealer. I love the car and it's been perfect for around town and the region but with 70% of the lease left they want $18000 for buy out. For that price you're well within a nice used EV with active thermal management, modern charge connectors not requiring an expensive adapter, etc...
There's probably going to be a surplus of off-lease Leafs coming up over the next one to three years which might make a great deal for people who can charge at home.
numpad0 · 10h ago
ZE1 Leaf(2017) was electronically a big minor update over ZE0(2010). IIRC so much so that ZE1 battery packs almost work on ZE0 body with only minor hack efforts.
So they're basically 15 years old, technologically older than the Model S. Windows 7 was 1 year old when its basic systems shipped.
Tade0 · 10h ago
To add to what others said: back in 2017 40kWh was the standard, now people scoff at 55kWh. Cars also charge faster, which greatly increases their highway driving potential.
> What if the car requires internet connection and the company dies?
That's not a problem specific to EVs and with Chinese combustion car brands coming and going all the time, it's obvious.
padjo · 10h ago
First generation Leaf was launched in 2010 second gen in 2017. That’s quite an old design for any tech that’s still advancing.
tpm · 10h ago
It's a 2 years old car, but the model and technology (2nd generation Nissan Leaf) is from 2017, so it's 8 years old in a rapidly evolving field.
numpad0 · 10h ago
Those were comporomises Nissan made in 2010s to build an EV that will be under $30k new in 2025. Not all of it are fundamental limitations of Li-ion BEV technology.
Tangential trivia: BYD Dolphin Baseline is 20k new before subsidies in some places.
kbos87 · 10h ago
I don't think about any of this and never have. My 2022 Model Y has 60,000 miles on it and the battery has only lost a negligible amount of health/range since I bought it.
jimnotgym · 4h ago
What was the purchase cost difference between a Model Y and a Leaf in 2022?
rsynnott · 9h ago
A lot of this is either over-caution, or related to the Leaf's specific quirks (though it's not uncooled, it's passively cooled by airflow).
fifilura · 10h ago
My understanding is that 2 & 3 are problems with the original (20kWh) Leaf model. Which possibly led to a rumour about the 40kWh models, that the OP has.
My Leaf from 2019 has 100% battery health and I always charge it to 100%. I almost never use fast charging though since it is a commute kind of car.
geerlingguy · 8h ago
Is that the health reported by the car dashboard, or by LeafSpy? The dash has some wiggle room in its 1-10 display an IIRC it will display 100% until the SoH is below like 90%...
KaiserPro · 9h ago
All of those problems are solved in non-leaf cars.
The leaf is a terrible steward if its battery. virtually every other car is better in virtually every single way.
sevenseacat · 9h ago
I just checked my phone (an iPhone 11) and it says 72%. There is absolutely no way the capacity is anywhere near 72% anymore lol
ruperthair · 6h ago
The performance/battery life of a phone can be seriously affected by the software (each new iOS being built for newer CPUs), whereas this is less of a factor for cars.
mschuster91 · 10h ago
Limiting QC events is easy enough. A daily commuter vehicle can easily trickle charge over night, and even the measly 40 kWh old used Leaf can get you 200km a charge - assuming an average commute of 20 km for Germany, that's a whole work week worth of battery life. The only time you as an average person actually "need" QC is for the yearly vacation road trip, but as the author writes, renting an ICE or chungus electric vehicle for that occasion is way more cost effective. Admitted: if you don't have access to trickle charge at either the workplace or your home, the situation looks different.
As for the battery health rating, it's easy enough to measure. Go on the highway, keep it at 80 km/h straight and note how much range you get out of it. In practical commute settings, range will be longer than that anyway due to regenerative braking in all that start-stop-start-stop dance.
theshrike79 · 9h ago
This is the thing that ICE people need to internalise.
You THINK you're driving long distances every day and you THINK charging is a massive hassle where you have to drive to a Charging Site and wait for the car to charge for HOURS.
When in reality you plug in at home and have a full battery every morning.
And when the infrastructure is properly built (yay Finland), you can get a week's charge when you're getting groceries as the shop has multiple 100kW chargers along with a fleet of Level 2 (22kW) chargers.
The only times I need to actively think about charging are over 200-250km day trips (my old Ioniq EV has a WLTP of 300km on a warm summer day). And even then the kids an dogs need a bathroom break anyway and I need to walk around a bit to freshen up. 20-30 minutes gets us 100-150km of charge (old car, slow charging) and we're off again.
jimnotgym · 3h ago
I had a leaf on demonstration for 24 hours. I was impressed with it. I drove the 50 miles to work and back, and put it on slow charge knowing I had 16 hours until I needed it. No problem. When I came to drive it in the morning it hadn't charged. It was actually a problem with the plug in the garage, it must have gone off a few minutes after I plugged it in. Now what? Wait 16 more hours?
A couple of weeks later I went on holiday. I wouldn't be able to charge where I was stopping, and there were no chargers within 15 miles. I kept my diesel.
mschuster91 · 2h ago
> It was actually a problem with the plug in the garage, it must have gone off a few minutes after I plugged it in. Now what? Wait 16 more hours?
So what, that's something you find out once that your electric installation is shoddy enough to most likely be a fire risk (because the charger plug has a thermal protection built in!), fix it and then you won't have that problem again. And as the Leaf should have 150 miles worth of range, you still should have way more than enough range on the battery to do two days worth of commute even if you suddenly find out the trickle charge didn't work.
ponector · 7h ago
>> When in reality you plug in at home and have a full battery every morning
Right, but I should buy a house with a garage first.
>> charge when you're getting groceries as the shop has multiple 100kW
Unless you do groceries in unusual time, those chargers are occupied. Will you wait in line then?
theshrike79 · 2h ago
You just need an outlet that is close to the car, but it’s mostly an American issue.
We get 230V/16A from a bog standard outlet, three phase is triple that.
stanski · 5h ago
I thought about this too - own a small electric vehicle for 90% of the family needs and rent a bigger SUV when the need arises.
Until you do the math and realize that the 3-4 annual trips of multiple days would end up costing thousands of dollars in rental fees per year.
Plus the usual inconveniences around renting.
Suddenly the math does not look so appealing.
theyinwhy · 2h ago
No idea what numbers you are crunching. I am doing this for 10 years now and able to afford luxurious cars for holidays because of it.
mschuster91 · 2h ago
> Until you do the math and realize that the 3-4 annual trips of multiple days would end up costing thousands of dollars in rental fees per year.
First, 3-4 annual multi-day trips that go for longer than 300 km? If one has that amount of disposable income to afford that, go for whatever the biggest Tesla is and use Superchargers along the route, even drives so long they're a safety issue on its own due to fatigue don't get that much longer due to charging because kids will need to go to the toilet every so often even with an ICE.
As for the rental fees: here in Germany, I just checked - a Mercedes Benz Vito, so up to 8 people (or 6 people plus a ton of luggage), that's 50€ a day here. Crossing four digits takes 20 days of rental, that's a lot of vacation time even by European standards.
bluGill · 9h ago
Renting a car for vacations / road trips is expensive. sure you can but expect to pay $100 per day. Also expect to arrive and be told they can't fill your reservation as they are out of cars.
mschuster91 · 8h ago
> Renting a car for vacations / road trips is expensive. sure you can but expect to pay $100 per day.
Indeed... but now, think of the price difference between a small-ish commute EV and a chungus EV or ICE. Easily tens of thousands of dollars, that's a lot of days worth of rent.
> Also expect to arrive and be told they can't fill your reservation as they are out of cars.
That's extremely fucking rare to happen. In the eventuality your reservation can't be filled, you'll usually get upgraded for free. Personally, got upgraded from a small VW Golf class to a VW Phaeton once, plus a day for free. And automatic, no stick shift like the Golf.
bluGill · 6h ago
Over the life of a car tens of thousands of dollars isn't that hard to build up though if the car cannot do anything. And there is value in having the vehicle that does what you need when the inspiration strikes.
Not having any rental cars is very common in my experience. I'm often renting in smaller cities though (like the rental car place just a couple miles from my house), I've never heard of problems in big tourist destinations or large cities.
FirmwareBurner · 10h ago
If you think this is what puts you off EVs, then you haven't read the horror stories from EV Clinic.
TL;DR is many EVs and hybrids (especially European ones) have tonnes of design faults with e-motors and power-electronics that not only make them ticking time bombs(not in the explosive sense) out of warranty, but also have malicious DRM making third party parts impossible to source, and repairs difficult and eye watering expensive even if theoretically EVs should be more reliable on paper than ICE cars.
Maybe the EU should focus more on EV/auto repairability regulations instead of smartphones and USB-C widgets.
Luckily EV Clinic is working hard on breaking the DRM and reverse engineering parts to make and sell aftermarket ones, but this shouldn't be needed in the first place if the OEMs weren't so bad at design, greedy and hostile to consumers and aftermarket repairs.
Seriously, we need regulations here ASAP. The free market doesn't work here for the consumer when OEMs all do the same anti consumer things.
mort96 · 10h ago
The DRM thing unfortunately has nothing to do with EVs and everything to do with the computerization of cars. All cars have gotten more and more computerized and harder to repair with more DRM. EVs arguably fundamentally require heavy computerization more than ICE cars, but you're not gonna avoid it in a brand new diesel car either.
jimnotgym · 3h ago
That is why I keep fixing up my old Diesels. No DPF, basic EGR, basic computer, no worries.
FirmwareBurner · 10h ago
That's why I said repair regulations are needed for all cars not just EVs.
arpinum · 8h ago
The EU did put in regulations, but they did the opposite and essentially mandated DRM. They want to prevent owners from turning off nanny devices or overriding pollution controls.
FirmwareBurner · 7h ago
Can you share what car repairability regulations did the EU put into place? Because following the posts of EV Clinic it seems like the opposite.
mort96 · 6h ago
I don't think there's disagreement here:
> The EU did put in regulations, but they did the opposite and essentially mandated DRM
is the same statement as:
> following the posts of EV Clinic it seems like [the EU did] the opposite
Where both posts use "the opposite" to mean "the opposite of creating in regulations to enforce repairability" .
theshrike79 · 9h ago
Hybrids are a different breed, they're very very bad. Don't ever buy one out of warranty and be REALLY sure what the warranty covers.
FYI: Mercedes Benz hybrids have a full(*) battery warranty. What's the asterisk you ask? The warranty only covers repairs up to the car's current value. Which has plummeted over the few years you've owned it and the cost of the battery is absolutely ridiculous. Like "buy 3 used Leafs" ridiculous.
Most hybrid batteries are also blobs of molten plastic and silicone that can't be repaired at all. EV batteries are constructed of semi-standard cells and can be opened and repaired piecemeal by specialist shops. Official repairs usually just swap the whole thing - again for a massive cost.
jacquesm · 10h ago
> Maybe the EU should focus more on EV/auto repairability regulations instead of smartphones and USB-C widgets.
Maybe they should do both.
doawoo · 31m ago
I ended up grabbing an Ioniq fully electric 2019 and i absolutely love it. Got it for a decent used cost, interior wise it was like new, no huge touch screen, but a decent one for CarPlay and Android Auto, real knobs and buttons, and the online portion is entirely obsolete since it used 3G so it has no connection to the internet! It’s perfect for me
jhallenworld · 43m ago
So here's the thing that's coming for EVs, and I finally started to see it for the Leaf: driveway DIY battery replacement:
Yes, this involves lying on your back with a 700 lb battery held up by jacks just inches above your head. But heck, services are expensive these days so it's going to happen.
nkingsy · 1h ago
I briefly owned a gen 1 leaf. It went from 70 miles of “range” (more like 25) at 100% to 50 in a couple of years of very light driving. Poor guy who bought it from me had all kinds of trouble trying to get it home.
asdff · 37m ago
Ebike would be nicer at that point. Battery takes far less time to charge over 110v. You can simply hot swap a charged battery. No insurance or registration requirements. Far lower base cost. Far lower maintenance costs. About the same range. Probably similar cargo volume compared to a cargo ebike. Just need a rain coat and rain pants and you are probably set for most conditions. Call an uber when you actually need to transport 4 people and you'd come out well ahead.
The big secret with bike commuting is that in urban setting on surface streets, its actually the fastest way to get around short of a motorcycle or helicopter. Yes, much faster than cars, thanks to lane splitting.
prmoustache · 10h ago
> and I found myself with a very short commute, only driving a few miles a day, and a family minivan we use for nearly all the 'driving around the kids' stuff.
>
> So I wanted a smaller car (get back a foot or so of garage space...) that was also more efficient.
All this to say what he really needs was an electrically assisted bicycle instead of a huge and heavy energy wasting vehicle.
geerlingguy · 8h ago
Bike would be amazing if the city I live in weren't a death trap for bikes. I had considered it but I do need a way to get 10-20 miles for things like kids' events or to pick up things from stores for my YT work, at least once or twice a week.
prmoustache · 3h ago
I've transported large stuff with my bike mind you, including furnitures and a small tree (in a trailer) and 20 miles is smaller than my longest commute on my bicycle which was 24miles each way.
And that was without electric assist. When I look at the low average speed and time spent in car when I use one in an urban area, it just doesn't make any sense in most cities.
But the safety issue is another story though. Every time I relocated I took that parameter into account before choosing a new place.
kccqzy · 10h ago
> they shouldn't do 16 on a 15A circuit but it seems like some do
There are 20A 120V circuits too! Called NEMA 5-20, one of its prongs is rotated. You plug that into a receptacle where one of the slots is T-shaped instead of straight. And it's standard practice for EVs to draw 80% of the maximum current, so 16A it is. I see this plug in larger machines in the office, like a large photocopier or a large vacuum.
dreamcompiler · 5h ago
I wish I could buy an electric kettle in the US that took advantage of the 20A outlets I have all over my house. Sigh.
kccqzy · 1h ago
You'd be better off buying a British kettle and using that on a 6-15 socket, if your goal is to boil water quicker.
dreamcompiler · 2m ago
I'd do that if I had two convenient hots for 240v going into my kitchen, but I don't. What I do have is a 20A 120v circuit.
bluGill · 9h ago
Legaly kitchen and garrages need 20 amp circuits but they allow nema 5-15 outlets there.
geerlingguy · 8h ago
Most older homes (like mine) only had 5-15, so over time I've added a couple 20A circuits with the horizontal blade outlets.
sgt101 · 10h ago
EV's look like EV's because they don't have the same constraints on space that ICEV's do. There is no engine in the front/back, no water pump, no oil pump, no water cooled radiator, no starter motor... so on so on. There's also a great big battery under the floor pan and no gas tank.
They are also heavier, so need different set ups in order to handle decently.
But, that's why they look so different.
HPsquared · 10h ago
They tend to handle better than ICE cars due to the low centre of mass (also the fact the big mass - the battery - is firmly bolted to the frame and not wobbling around on rubber mounts like an engine does). These are both big advantages in terms of dynamics. Couple that with the much faster powertrain response and many options to do torque vectoring to each wheel (individual motors on sports models) and it's an easy win for EVs. Then we get to the potential for fan-assisted downforce (e.g. McMurtry Spéirling) and it's even more blatant. ICEs are still better at endurance, though.
jonfw · 1h ago
People way overstate the "dynamics" advantages of EVs
Yes EVs can keep their weight low, but it's a lot more weight to deal with.
Yes EVs have excellent 0-60, but that's just because they have a great launch. Even doing a 5-60 pull removes the EV advantage. Starting from highway speeds? EVs start to look real slow.
There are some good traits to EVs but, outside of launching hard in street car trim, performance is not one of them.
asdff · 34m ago
That 0-10mph response is way too twitchy in most EVs i've ridden. The old teslas were not like this. I'm not sure what package my friends model 3 is or if it comes down to his lead foot but I feel nauseous in that car. Its a combination of that instant torque and the suspension sort of feeling like one of those play horses on a spring you see in playgrounds.
sgt101 · 13m ago
There's something wrong with your friend's model 3. If I stand on my accelerator it goes straight (if set straight) and the suspension (set on sport) is hard.
It's not M5 BMW hard, but it's hard. I guess that if you have a performance variant then maybe it would be.
squigz · 10h ago
Now I want street versions of the Speirling.
clysm · 6h ago
No. It’s 100% a design choice by the manufacturer to make them look weird.
Even with the benefits of EV packaging, manufacturers chose to make them “different” on purpose, which really put off the vast majority of buyers. Tesla had so much success because they were practically the first manufacturer to make something look somewhat normal and have good stats.
Now, BMW finally learned and has their 4 and 5 series EV cars share a common platform with the ICE. There is no physical difference in style other than the front grill.
ZeroGravitas · 10h ago
This is just what the contemporary Nissan ICE cars looked like.
The first gen leaf got a lot of commentary about this "EV look" and the contemporary Nissan Note had a similar front end. And then both got 2nd gens that evolved similarly.
Their Juke could be an overinflated Leaf at a glance etc.
The only difference between EV and ICE is less holes in front as they need less air for cooling the radiator. All other things looks similar. How car looks is a design choice not related to the type of engine.
bzzzt · 10h ago
That wouldn't explain the unorthodox color schemes lots of smaller EVs like the i3 have. It really seems they are made uglier 'on purpose'.
Also, a Tesla model S or 3 looks like a normal car so it's not other brands can't do that.
rsynnott · 9h ago
VW's first-gen EVs, the eGolf and later eUp, looked basically just like the Golf and Up. This lead people to believe that VW did not make electric cars (a lot of people thought the ID.3/4 were their first). The market _wants_ electric cars to be a bit weird-looking.
VBprogrammer · 9h ago
I think the Tesla looking like a normal car is because their design language hasn't changed in forever.
I've found myself taking a second look at a bunch of ICE cars recently as they've all started trying to copy elements from electric car design...
bluGill · 9h ago
They still have similar constrains - crumple zones for crash protection mean they will never make a 'flat front' again. aerodynamics is also a factor and again places limits on design.
dreamcompiler · 6h ago
> I want an EV that looks like a Camry. Just blend in and don't stand out.
Drag coefficient matters a lot for EVs. Air resistance reduces the range of all cars, but you notice the decrease in an EV. (When I plan a long trip, I use windy.com to see if I'll have a headwind or a tailwind and I plan accordingly.)
That's why EVs look different. And why EV trucks often have terrible range, even though they have more room for batteries.
ForOldHack · 5h ago
Agree. Drag coefficient is significant as well as waxing. I think almost almost a clear third was due to waxing. And it really is not that hard to do once a week.
Okkef · 10h ago
Nice, we did the same recently.
The choice was
2016 100k km Golf Plus for 16k eur
2020 50k km e-Golf for 13k eur
I'm so glad we picked the e-golf! It's so fast and nice to drive and cheap to run. Only downside is the limited range (200km on a summer day) but even my commute (100km one-way) is OK as I can charge at work and home.
That said, we still have a Touran for when we need to drive further or with lots of luggage.
If only the chairs in the eGolf were a bit better...
ahartmetz · 10h ago
Bad seats in a VW? Yeah, I guess they really saved too much on the interior in that generation.
haunter · 9h ago
If that were me then for that much money I'd just buy a used Tesla Model 3
seszett · 1h ago
For many people in Europe, Tesla is just out of question now.
Okkef · 8h ago
A used tesla model 3 in the Netherlands is upwards of 20k euro, so quite a different price bracket.
sandos · 4h ago
Also, guessing here, the insurance is quite a bit higher.
The 400+hp Teslas are super-expensive to insure here in Sweden. Like 3x the price of only slightly cheaper, but less powerful EVs.
haunter · 3h ago
I see them for 14-15k€ on mobile.de, even as low as 12k€
Are you worried or thought about resale value?
Do you plan to keep it for long?
GeoAtreides · 10h ago
Am I blind or he doesn't the mention the price anywhere in the post?!
dreamcompiler · 5h ago
CHAdeMO is Betamax all over again. It's the best standard because it supports bidirectional power flow, which theoretically allows EVs to support the grid during demand spikes.
But if course CHAdeMO is dying. NACS is second best because it's less bulky than CCS, and NACS is winning in the US so the situation is less bad than it might have been.
qwerpy · 1h ago
My electric truck supports bidirectional power flow through NACS. Currently only usable with Tesla-specific vehicle and hardware, but the connector itself does support it. It was very useful during a few multi-day power outages.
1970-01-01 · 7h ago
Its fun to witness EVs living up to their original promise. Yes, the 1st generation of EVs without battery heating and cooling were mostly disposable experiments to catch-up with Tesla. That much is fact. However, the late model, new-wave of EVs (with proper battery technology) have crushed every excuse, except for variety.
jama211 · 1h ago
2023 is new wow
lowwave · 7h ago
> They seem to not require an Internet connection for their cars
That would be the only reason to get that car now days! Can the car just drive without Internet. I want my car to be my not connected to cloud for all kinds crap.
jagermo · 10h ago
Huh, i see a bunch of used Renault Zoes for about 5k or less in my area. I wonder if they hold up as well.
KaiserPro · 9h ago
Zoes are fine, so long as they have fast charge and are the last generation (52kwhr)
The software is pretty shit. Lagging and annoying. But apple/android play stops that.
As a car its smooth, quiet, and fast if you need to be. The only annoyance driving wise is that it doesn't have adaptive cruise control, and the reverse/drive/neutral switch always returns to the middle, so you can't tell what mode its set to without looking at it
yourusername · 8h ago
A lot of Zoes i see for sale are with a rental or lease battery. So be sure to check if that 5k includes a battery or not.
wazoox · 10h ago
It depends. Zoés come in many flavours, with different sizes of battery (52kWh is the best, the same size as current Renault models R4 and R5), rented or bought (don't buy a Zoé with a rental battery!!!), and the CCS2 port is in option (no CCS-2 effectively means no day trip longer than full range, unless you have the 22kW AC option, but still... you'll need to find a 22 kW charger en route, not that easy).
Battery management on Zoés is fine ; it doesn't have the overheating problem that plagues the Leaf and the VW e-Up in particular; it doesn't have the "very slow charge when cold" problem of many cheap EVs with LiFePO4 batteries, though it charges up quite slowly (10-80% in 50 minutes).
Someone I know recently bought a 135HP 52kWh Zoé without CCS-2 and 22kW AC charge for 7500€. That's a real bargain, it'sequivalent for all practical purposes (but long travel) to a brand new 30000€ R5 :)
cillian64 · 10h ago
The trick with neutral in the leaf is that you have to hold the gear selector in the neutral direction for about a second. No relation to brake pedal timing as far as I can tell. No idea why neutral has that delay given none of the other “gears” do.
potato3732842 · 6h ago
Because neutral isn't a thing they expect the lowest common denominator consumer the car is designed to be usable for to be using on the daily so they gate it behind some stupid extra motions.
It's like a "lite" version of how some cars make you enter a stupid cheat code to reset your oil change reminder or some other thing that should just be in settings.
tfrutuoso · 11h ago
(...)I'm trying to do some things to extend the battery's life as long as possible (...) Not driving like a maniac.
Oops. My work daily is the same Leaf, my personal car is a '95 1.8 Turbo Miata. The Leaf suffers.
tinyhouse · 1h ago
I was thinking about buying the leaf but I have a 2012 Honda Fit and my monthly gas expense is so cheap that I didn't bother. I use the car often but for mainly short drives within the city.
girvo · 10h ago
I agree with the ugly comments, which is why I went with the Cupra Born (2024)! It’s like a sporty space egg and I love it haha
mangecoeur · 8h ago
As European it really struck me how poor the second hand ev market must be in the US. For the “cheap second hand car to do short distances” we have a lot of options really cheap - older gen Renault Zoe and Peugeot e208s, leafs, even the old hyundai Ioniq which is a bit of a cult favourite for its efficiency
bluGill · 1h ago
If you buy used cars you are limited to what someone else bought 3 or more years ago. new didn't have many options then. Even now there are not many good options for a new car buyer but most niches have something. I wanted an used id.buzz, but that won't be an option for 2 more years and so I'm stuck with the current minivan. my truck is dieing and a silverado could do but I can't afford payments on it new so again 2 more years and I need something else in the meantime.
ponector · 6h ago
I don't think it's an EV issue. It's rather "How poor the second hand small car market must be in the US". I guess alternatives in the same class in US are only two cars: Fiat 500 and Yaris.
ForOldHack · 5h ago
Good job. I have driven ( for at least 2 trips ) a TeslaS a TeslaX, a Leaf, and EV-1... The Leaf was the easiest to use the regenerative breaking, and the very most efficient at it. Using the 80Mile model, and hand waxing the outside ( a favorite of the 100Mpg Prius group ) I was able to go 69.5 Miles, with 22% remaining. 28% more efficient than rated. This was a mostly highway traveled trip, with a bunch of city errand running at the end.
Both I and the owner were very impressed. They ordered the 100mile battery pack, which was very expensive, but it has been great in the long run.
I think it was like 81% cheaper than a gasoline trip at the time not including long term wear and tear. ( Ware and Tare?$#).
I think the Nissan Leaf is the very best of the bunch.
donatj · 10h ago
Hmm, my friend had a 2015 Leaf, the interior seemed much nicer and more modern than this 2023 model.
> There is no 'play/pause' button. Anywhere. At least not on the steering wheel or the display area. You have to go into the music section on the entertainment display, then press the software play/pause button. That's dumb.
My new to me 2023 Honda Odyssey has the same stupid issue. It's my first vehicle with a touch screen, and I have a lot of trouble hitting the pause button especially when I'm trying to mute it because I need to pay extra attention to the road. WHY is there not just a Play/Pause button on the wheel!? Or at least a physical button on the dashboard.
InsideOutSanta · 8h ago
Fortunately, the play/pause button problem is easily solved. Aliexpress sells play/pause buttons. Search for something like "Auto Wireless Media Button". They connect via Bluetooth, you can stick them anywhere on your dashboard, and they use a button cell that lasts about a year. There are also ring-shaped ones you can attach to the steering wheel.
marcusb · 7h ago
Your friend probably had an SL-trimmed Leaf. The car in the video is an SV, which has cloth seats, etc. Interestingly, it looks like Nissan no longer offers the nicer trim levels for the Leaf, only S and SV PLus (at least as of 2025.)
wara23arish · 7h ago
i think lowering the volume down to zero now constitutes as play/pause
i hate it too
mschuster91 · 10h ago
> And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your tank, and squeeze.
The "how to juice your car" question is pretty much solved on the electrical and communications side... but the "how do you pay for the juice" question is indeed absurd. I understand that providers of high capacity charging stations wish to charge a bit extra because a single 200 kW+ DC charger quickly reaches 40k € in pure hardware cost, in addition to the installation cost and the regular swapping of cables due to thieves. But why the EU and the US governments haven't stepped in yet and mandated either a "roaming" standard (where my primary billing contact would be a regular electric utility with a set base price per kWh and optional surcharges for high-capacity chargers or stations in high demand) or acceptance of all common credit and debit cards is way beyond me.
Instead, it's not just multiple vendors, apps and payment methods - it's also a (sometimes wild) difference in price depending on how you pay, at the same station. In contrast, at each gas station there is a sign that's visible from afar stating the exact price for your fuel, with the only thing one might hope for is a 1 cent discount for high volume diesel fuel pumps (aka, your truck's hole is big enough to fit a truck diesel nozzle) and a further 1 cent discount from some sort of loyalty reward scheme.
- card acceptance is only required for 50 kW+ chargers. All the relatively low power chargers at supermarkets, shopping malls and other public venues? They can get by with offering QR codes that are all too often abused for phishing campaigns [2][3] and still have the issue with requiring some sort of app.
- the "card acceptance" may also be fulfilled by PSD2 compliant mobile banking apps, so if you got a rooted phone (where Google Pay is a cat-and-mouse game), a phone whose vendor is under sanctions and thus doesn't get the Google ecosystem or don't want to involve Google Pay, Apple Pay, PayPal or the likes in your daily life, you're screwed just as well at these charger points
On top of that, the standard to publish pricing information to the public coordination exchange is a hot XML/SOAP mess [4].
Looks like you bought a faulty computer which happens to have 4 wheels buddy.
The neutral and parking brake issues: that just by itself should make Nissan stocks plummet. 2025 and we have these issues? It definitely looks an involution to me.
Things we humans are still lame at: adapters. Power adapters, cable data adapters. Why do we have bazillions adapters?
Can't we just design one adapter for the whole world that makes happy both manufacturers and customers? If not governments should step in and force manufacturers to include all adapters ever needed as part of a car purchase. That you have to spend more money just to charge a car because of the adapter is ridiculous.
If EVs are in this line of quality/user experience in general, thanks I'll pass and get something reliable and old school that actually works as expected.
Edit: And we don't need mobile apps to control our cars. Another really stupid and ridiculous idea that has been pushed to customers when no-one actually asked for that.
numpad0 · 10h ago
EU solved it years ago by mandating CCS2. Even Tesla in EU uses that plug and reportedly just works, except Tesla have no access to DCFC without carrying an adapter because they adamantly reject Combo2. I believe China does the same, only stricter, and some of Model S/X in China reportedly has fuel doors to fit the port.
As if regulations work. They seem to have very strange situations over there.
rsynnott · 9h ago
Strictly speaking, the EU only mandates CCS2 on _chargers_; the second gen Leaf sold in Europe didn't have CCS2, though I think it was about the last car not to have it.
bluGill · 9h ago
Everyone in the us has now agreed to use teslas NACS so this problem will go away with new cars over the next 5 years or so. If you have an older car good luck. And many parking garrages won't update their chargers. Still with NACS and ev's taking off you will see a lot more chargers going up as investors try to get this new market for charging:
sitharus · 6h ago
What is the neutral issue? It sounds annoying to switch in to, but when do you even need neutral in an EV? The reasons I’ve needed it while driving ICE cars aren’t there in an EV, because it’s the same as the car being off.
Come to think of it, I have no idea how to get my car in to neutral.
illegalsmile · 5h ago
I don't know about the neutral issue... The only time I use the neutral is to go through an automatic car wash. Hold the brake and push the selector to the left/neutral for ~3 seconds.
"In 2020, the Mini EV had a price starting at US$4,162, and topped out at US$5,607 for a fully loaded model, making it China's cheapest electric car."
lan321 · 10h ago
He's not in China though.
ForOldHack · 3h ago
Oh thank God. The cheapest EV in China is little more than a flashlight with a wind up propeller, (joking/not joking) but not as safe. No one it their right mind could compare it to a leaf to a tesla.
KebabKanaken · 1h ago
"i BouGHt aN Ev"
Are EVs still the rage? I mean, within normal people circles not doing "the current thing" like lefty tech dorks tend to do?
recursive · 1h ago
Were they ever the rage? Seems to me they started off with a small fringe of hardcore fans, and they're gradually gaining adoption. That means they're picking up users that aren't enthusiasts and just want to get on with it.
It seems like you have some kind of issue, but I'm not sure what it is.
quitit · 9h ago
Something which this article highlights is the lack of reliable rail in the USA.
Where I am there is a decent rail network, and the rail provider has a fleet of EVs for rent, where the cost of the electricity is included. This provides a "green" last mile solution even if the public transport itself in each area may be lacking (often it's not however).
So a trip looks like this:
Hop on the train which quickly takes the lion's-share of the travelling distance, then switch to an EV that fills the gap to the final destination/s. Then do this process in reverse to get home.
This approach solves the largest problems presented by the author.
1970-01-01 · 8h ago
High speed rails would involve large scale manufacturing and long-term planning. This is the one thing the US simply cannot do anymore (unless it's military, then they will make 300ish in a decade)
quitit · 11m ago
High speed rail is definitely not a requirement. Ordinary trains are still faster than driving.
What the USA lacks is a robust network. The spread of rail is too thin to be useful for everyday use.
behnamoh · 10h ago
You should never purchase EVs, only lease them. That's what I did. This saves you from the terrible depreciation they have.
The only time it makes sense to buy an EV is if it's used.
Edit: He bought used.
andsoitis · 10h ago
> Mistake #1: He bought an EV.
> You should never purchase EVs, only lease them. That's what I did. This saves you from the terrible depreciation they have.
> The only time it makes sense to buy an EV is if it's used.
Coming in too hot, friend! The headline, and opening line, is that it is a used EV.
rjtavares · 10h ago
Also, leasing does not prevent you from paying for the depreciation. It's just included in the fee.
andsoitis · 10h ago
With these things, it is helpful to place oneself on the other end of the transaction and think how you would price things. When you think about it critically, you notice that it can get pretty sophisticated.
jstanley · 10h ago
How does leasing save you from depreciation? Surely the company leasing you the car has a good idea of what the depreciation will be, and they want to make money.
bluGill · 9h ago
That depends on what real depreciation is. Sometimes those experts get it wrong. This can be for or against you though.
the artile is a guy who drives his cars 'into the ground' - he wouldn't care about value he cares about how long it will run.
prmoustache · 10h ago
From a purely economic point of view, buying a new car is always a bad idea, regardless of the drivetrain technology.
1970-01-01 · 6h ago
Exception being those buying new cars, leaving them in storage for a decade or two, and then selling them at auction for 10x.
yen223 · 3h ago
Over a decade, that storage space will 10x more reliably than the car
ponector · 6h ago
I'm curious how much you can get for a brand new 2005 Corolla. And don't forget to add storage costs.
1970-01-01 · 6h ago
They're not doing it with Corollas. They're doing it with Porsches and other sports cars.
ForOldHack · 3h ago
Exactly what Tesla first did. Well, they a first did not have an existing ICE vehicle and based the styling off a Lotus Elise sports car.
prmoustache · 24m ago
They didn't based the styling only. They were using gliders[1] built by Lotus.
[1] chassis+body+suspension basically a car without powertrain and interior trim
conradev · 10h ago
I still agree with OP in that purchasing an EV, used or not, is brutal with depreciation.
You can lease a used Tesla Model 3 for $5k/24mo. Say the used Leaf was $15k, it would need to be worth at least $10k in 2027.
kccqzy · 10h ago
He bought a used EV. The cost of depreciation is borne by the previous owner.
sejje · 8h ago
He paid 17k and it's still a long way to zero.
4pkjai · 10h ago
Regarding your last sentence, it seems like he did buy a used EV.
dzhiurgis · 8h ago
Datapoint: once in a century pandemic event where car prices spiked and crashed back 2 years later
If you're buying a car as an investment I have bad news for you...
This Bolt EUV car drives so damn good. I was very impressed when I drove it.
The Bose audio is also quite good. After testing several new cars, I learned that Bose audio is not implemented the same across manufacturers. For example Mazda Premium Bose is just plain mediocre.
For the price that you can pay for one, Bolt EUV is an amazing deal. Unfortunately the charge speed is a deal breaker for many. But I never forgot how well it handles.
I really hope these cars last, they are a hidden gem and I think a lot wouldnt care about resale value if that charge speed was a bit better.
What driving assist platform? I don't think the older Chevy Bolts have any such thing. At least I'm pretty sure my 2017 doesn't.
Afaik in Europe, CCS2 is the standard (and mandatory these days), when I rented an EV a few weeks back there was no location which didn’t have it. And all the spots I tried charging at except Tesla accepted card payment (though there were a pair of times it was a struggle getting a card to work).
Apps / memberships will get you cheaper prices but that’s about all I saw (and I didn’t bother with any of it).
TBH the only things that annoyed me were implementation issues of the car (a polestar 4) as well as how overly wide it is. And that the rental company (AVIS) does not provide an AC adapter, so I was not able to charge at any wallplug even though I had the opportunity to charge the car at least twice over in all (I will likely purchase one if that remains their policy and I rent more EVs).
All this is modulo it being summer and a pretty long range model so range anxiety was present but reasonably limited.
The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge. So much so even Tesla switched to CCS2. This doesn't help Jeff but certainly one less problem for many readers of his article.
Funnily enough, not for the Leaf! Though it will be on the third generation that's coming out this year. The second-gen Leaf (a ten year old design, at this point) that the author of the article bought doesn't have it. The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_; manufacturers can still sell cars without it, though I think Nissan may be the only remaining one who _does_.
Right but that’s the most important one. If you have a leaf it means you know you need an adapter always, so while it’s a bit of a hassle to waste space on that there’s no question whether you’ll get a compatible charging plug.
This does mean Jeff's Leaf would be limited to AC without an adapter, which isn't perfectly ideal, but still better.
I was under the impression Type 2 was the only European standard.
That was obvious from the article but given they specifically mentioned CCS2 bundled with the mess that is US charging I thought important to point that (anecdotally) the situations are quite distinct. Both in terms of charging hardware and payment.
I don't understand how North America and Europe settled on different EV charging plugs.
Here in Norway, new EVs are no longer allowed to be sold with AC adapters, due to the potential fire hazard. At least that's the reason I got when I purchased my current EV.
Perhaps a EU thing, wouldn't surprise me.
Sure you might burn a house down if you find one that has a plug which isn't correctly installed with loose connectors but the fire risk here wasn't the EV. Its the incorrectly installed wiring.
You don't tell people to get rid of their fridges because some people might have forgetten to plug theirs in and therefore they could get food poisoning from spoiled food inside.
Could also be that for historical reasons you could have a house wired for 10 or 13 A and not be aware if it.
‘Course you can manage that by having the chargers limit themselves to 8A default (or even always), at 1800W that’s a very slow trickle but it’s something, and even if it does not fully cover your commute it spaces out carger stops or helps condition the battery on cold mornings.
However, I haven't seen a station that takes card yet (or they don't advertise it). They all have their own app, which is inconvenient and a hassle.
It is exactly this kind of Nissan Leaf. Japanese older generation cars. Enough around to still be available, but I think it is slowly disappearing. After that only 6kW (32A/single phase) charging will be available for these cars.
Chademo is still standard in Japan.
Also, given his comparison to the ease of the old way, in Europe at least it's fairly standard to know someone who has filled their hire car with diesel (or not diesel) by mistake. They have warning stickers on the filler flap because it happens so often.
Meanwhile knowing someone who uses the inexplicably more expensive premium fuel option also offered is maybe rarer.
Maybe EV-owning car reviewers should counter the FUD by pretending to be confused by these, always using the most expensive one in price comparisons and then breaking the car completely by using the wrong one during their test drive, like the many propaganda pieces put out about EVs.
In the US, if you roll up to a random charging station you may or may not find a plug matching your car’s port.
I have wall ovens that connect via a 50A circuit. Do I need to worry about fire hazards when I bake something for hours and hours?
It's complicated. Heat builds up over time. So for example your standard 15 amp breaker on a 14 gauge wire in the US is rated for 15 amps of intermittent use, but if you draw that continuously without letting the heat dissipate it becomes a fire hazard. IIRC circuits are generally rated for ~80% of their max load for continuous use, so that 15 amp circuit is considered good for 12 continuous. Or in your 10 amp example 8 should be ok.
Your oven and circuit should be sized such that your long cooks aren't a concern, if you look at it's label you'll probably find it has a max draw of well below 50amps, but if you have actual doubts ask a professional.
A concern for high current outlets in the US, such as NEMA 14-50, is that they weren't necessarily designed for a large number of plug/unplug cycles. Typically you'd plug your stove in and leave it there for years to decades.
If you use the same 14-50 outlet for car charging, which is not uncommon, the contacts can lose their grip over time. End users may want to take their mobile EVSE with them and incur cycles on the outlet. Properly installed but worn 14-50s have been known to melt or even catch fire under these conditions.
End users should prefer to have their EVSE(s) hardwired or installed with a higher grade outlet like Hubbell or Bryant.
Probably? No, it pulls less than my dryer which runs at 240V15A I think but also just the same as my 1500W space heater. You can totally control how much power the charger should draw.
> With that much power, there’s a risk of overheating and fire. Unlike a dedicated EV charger, a socket is simply not equipped to handle the amount of electricity needed to charge a car battery.
Wrong assumption leads to wrong conclusion. Any charger you can physically plug in will work in a house that's wired up to standard.
It’s the long charge time that leads to heat buildup, not the max amp.
Where I am from standard outlets can deliver 16A but are not rated for more than 6A if the load is longer than 2 hours.
At the end of the tax year I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.
I tacked on the price of the CHAdeMO adapter mentally to the price I offered, since I knew I'd want it for the one or two regional road trips I take per year.
https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-cr...
I don't know anything about your situation, but I'm guessing quite a bit of the readers here on HN from the US won't qualify.
>You buy the vehicle from a dealer.
This is such an annoying part of the tax incentive.
It's a huge, pointless gift to car dealers (who need no help) because it means they don't have to compete for price with private sellers or buyers. If I have a used EV to sell, I basically have to sell to the dealer because no buyer wants to bother buying from me when they can get the same thing from a dealer with a $4k tax credit on top.
Used Chevy Volts are actually more expensive now than they were a few years back, at least on the CarMax website. Maybe a higher price because they were discontinued but I used to love my Volt. Averaged 150mpg over 3 years.
Otherwise, this car is as close to a perfect daily driver I've ever owned. I hope it lasts forever: not a single touchscreen, no OTA updates, decent battery range (and DC Fast Charging at 60kW+), gas engine to fall back on (with OBD-II programming you can enable Hold State of Charge on the NA models allowing you to truly treat the i3 as a proper series-hybrid and not just an emergency limp-along range extender that will crap out going up a hill in the cold), comfy seats, and did I mention NO TOUCHSCREENS and NO OTA UPDATES?
The fuel tank is quite small, but it doesn't take long to fill.
Overall fuel consumption was around 6-8 gallons for the trip.
- a traditional car feeling, knobs, buttons, the way cars have been for decades prior
- very very reliable. basically never needs anything except wiper fluid. no software updates or crashing. I don’t have stats but might be one of most reliable cars
- compact and easy to park
- compatible with comma.ai
- LeafSpy diagnostics to monitor it
- nice hatchback format with fold down rear seats
- ~220 mile range is plenty for around town use and trickle charge overnight
Overall I’m very happy with it and while constantly tempted by Teslas I think I wouldn’t like them as much.
Anyway, not having CarPlay has not been an issue. Although, it would have been nice to have.
In here a used 2022 leaf goes for about $20-22K CAD. 2016 models go as low as $8K - those had a range of about 120km when new.
Put otherwise: if the battery is so degraded you only get 30mi/50km range out of it, I see why it's selling for $2000.
When it comes to charging network Tesla is SO MUCH BETTER. It's hard to describe how much of a wild west other charging networks are. You have to download this app or that app, add a credit card here, add one there. De-rated charging handles absolutely everywhere.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?auto_make_model=niss...
I bought a 2012 for $7500 in 2016 and drove it for several years.
1. chargers suck. there was evgo, blink, chargepoint. Most locations had 1 or most 2 DC fast chargers, but frequently they didn't work or were busy. Not reliable.
2. range was less that expected, even if you update expectations. It takes engineering to use the range you have, especially taking #1 into account. You don't want to get to a fast charger at 1% then find it doesn't work.
3. the battery health wasn't great, but because the battery capacity/range was less, the number of battery cycles was significantly more. I charged to a higher %, discharged low each day, and cycled daily.
4. the leaf was a perfect "around town" car. Not for trips.
Tesla has basically solved all of this and their cars are usable like a regular car*
* don't be pedantic, in 99% of situations/locations
I now own a corolla hybrid and I enjoy cheap commutes without the fear of running out of juice
either you get 2 cars or a fast charging ev. i chose the latter
400 dollars for a 2012 nissan leaf with 80% battery life and 80k miles (saved from being junked.)
MA taxes and delivery made it about 1k when it was all said and done. Insurance is 400/year.
We fit 3 kid seats in the back and have replaced all our metropolitan rides with the nissan. Ostensibly we are all < 6ft tall otherwise the 3 seats wouldn't work.
Our range is 60 miles in the summer, 50 in the winter. Because of how we use it a regular 15 amp plug works for us. Any long trip is taken with our 2018 honda HRV + Thule.
I've been monitoring the usage of our gas car and financially it makes more sense for us to rent a gas car for our trips rather than pay for the ownership + insurance of our car. The math on yearly ownership of the gas car is:
555 treasury yield when selling the car (15000 * 0.05 on a 30 less 30% taxes), 1200 insurance, 200 yearly maintenance (oil changes, amortized tires...), 375 excise tax, 40 inspection
That's about 2.2k/year or about 4 weeks of rental for an SUV. We're still holding on to the gas car for the impromptu apple picking/beach day/day trip that sets us over the 50 mile radius, but zipcar could fill that void
The second hand market for EVs is getting pretty interesting. There are lots of EV owners that are replacing their EVs every few years and because of all the growth over the last 10 years, there are now quite a few fairly nice EVs on the second hand market. Many are typically still under drive train warranty. For example, the model 3 has only been on the market for about eight years and it came with eight years of warranty on the drive train. So, most of the second hand ones would still be under warranty. And most of the EV market only started growing after that. So this is true for many second hand EVs.
And car batteries don't seem to spontaneously stop working right after the warranty expires either. So the risk is fairly low. They'll eventually degrade. But if you can pick up a car for a few thousand and then drive it for another 5-10 years, who cares? The fuel savings alone pay for the car after just a few years. Add the savings on maintenance and you are basically in the plus.
A lot of the crap like the early Nissan Leafs didn't. And between that and the first gen EV battery pack design being shit in general, the battery pack just cooks itself. Its capacity falls off a cliff over time. This is where a lot of those early concerns about EV battery packs being hideously expensive consumables was coming from.
If the battery pack is actively cooled, then, as a rule, it ages gracefully. If not? Oh boy.
The Leaf limited battery life is mainly to its battery chemistry (LMO), although it arguably doesn't go to great lengths to ensure thermal stability of the pack.
For most people, the vast majority of their driving takes place well within the range of the typical BEV and range anxiety is a total non-issue. The fact is, even accounting for the occasional long trip, I spend less time at charging stations than I did at gas stations when I owned an ICE car, because the vast majority of the time, I just plug the car in at my house and let it do its thing.
Nothing done by choice is annoying obviously. But a lot of people are fine with stretching their legs on a five minute bathroom break. Adding an extra an hour or hour half for unwanted stops due to forced recharging is what annoys them.
Right, so that covers approximately 100% of EV owners.
But you’re now talking about the lack of adequate charging infrastructure in an urban setting. That’s a different conversation. It’s a worthy conversation, but not all that related to making 500 mile road trips.
This summer I made two 500 mile trips (round trip each time) to drop off (and pick up) a kid at a summer camp. It was a week long camp, so I drove up and back on two weekends. I drove an electric car up the first time and a hybrid SUV up the second time.
It was fine to do in my electric car. I spent about 5 minutes making sure I had a good charging plan, which turned out to add about 10-15 extra miles to the trip. It wasn’t a problem to stop to charge, and I really wanted to stop to eat and stretch when I needed to charge, so everything worked out well timing wise. The trip in the hybrid was a little faster, but not by much. I still stopped the same number of times regardless of what car I drove.
Note: I would have happily had made the trip in my EV both times, but I had another person with me for the second trip. She hated the seats in my EV, so we took the car with more comfortable interior for the second trip. The trip in the hybrid was “nicer”, but that was because it was a more comfortable car in general, not because of the difference between an EV and hybrid.
You want to keep batteries roughly in that range to maximise their lifetime health. That doesn't mean the battery will explode if you do otherwise once in a while e.g. you charge limit the car to 80% for your daily drive and before a big trip you charge to 100%.
Route planners will generally keep you in that band anyway because charging speeds fall off a cliff as charge exceeds 80~90% (depending on the manufacturer's usable % standard), and it's rarely worth wasting 30mn charging to full to save 5~10mn extra at the next stop (the same occurs to a lower extent at very low states of charge, plus you want some spare, so the lower 10% are generally treated as a reserve).
Huh? The car isn't doing that for you? Prius hybrids sure are (the old ones using NiMH batteries tried to keep charge between 40% and 80%).
An EV can do that how exactly, refusing to run? Mugging the elderly for loose kWh?
It's really not a hassle at all. What's a hassle right now is finding a charger, as there aren't enough fast ones along the trip, but I've had the car for a year and have never needed to do a trip that long yet.
The average car journey is 8 miles. Being an average with a finite lower limit of 0 it is skewed higher by the people who for various reasons drive long distances.
You don't need a 1,000 mile range to get to the shops at the end of the street. It helps, but not that much.
I read a blogger say a 40-mile trip is exceptionally log for him, so why worry about EV range?
Meanwhile we put 160 miles on our EV yesterday doing ordinary errands that all got stacked on the same day. 100+ mile days happen a few times a month for us¹.
That 160 miles is 65% of our 0–100 range, or 108% of the 20–80 range. And we have a level 1 charger, so it'll take 26 hours in the driveway to recoup that charge.
¹ In my area a normal daily commute is 30–40 miles round-trip. Throw in some extra errands, or two people sharing a car, and you don't have to be an outlier to routinely have 100+ mile days.
However, I think the point of the GP is that the number of people who say this is their typical experience is going to be larger than the number of people for whom it actually is their typical experience.
By that I mean: your story is quite common in discussions like this, both online and offline. Yet, if the mean distance is 8 miles, and we know it's going to be skewed high due to the 0 bound, it can't be all that common.
To be honest, I'd be curious to see the median here.
https://raleighnc.gov/planning/services/city-profile
So yeah, I'll keep driving rusted out minivans that make people clutch their pearls.
For people who just want a dedicated commuting vehicle used EVs with 80% battery are a pretty good option.
It's easy to forget the budget issues faced by many families when you're not facing that constantly yourself, but it's basically an existential consideration for a not insignificant proportion of the population.
You're circa $1700/year more expensive in fuel with your minivan[1] than with a comparably sized EV.
Your 5 hour / 300 mile journey takes around 30 mins more in the EV end to end (time spent stationary at a charger somewhere near the mid point of your route). Equiv of driving at 55mph average vs 60mph average over that time. I'd happily use the time to drink a flask of tea i brought with me and then go for a comfort break.
[1] assuming $4.80/gallon in a 25mpg minivan, vs an inefficient EV that only averages around 2mi/kwh at $0.30/kwh. Obv the 1700 excludes servicing, tyres and depreciation
Not to pick on you personally but I think it speaks volumes about the type of people who make up HN community that I can come in here with a fairly narrow and niche critique of a product (inflexibility basically), hedge that comment with a "but it's still good for a lot of people" statement and a bunch of act like I'm dismissing the entire product category and then act like completely tangential things disprove that. It's like I've offended a religion.
> So yeah, I'll keep driving rusted out minivans that make people clutch their pearls.
These antagonistic statements are unnecessary and the reason you are being downvoted.
You are an extreme outlier, you should wait until the technology develops further. To use your parlance, no need to screech about people clutching their pearls at you.
This has different impacts depending on your local gas to electricity price ratio.
It's his weekly and monthly longer trips that complicate matters but in many jurisdictions he'd still be saving enough to make it worthwhile.
Porsche Kia Hyundai are currently top of the list
https://www.electrive.com/2024/12/20/p3-charging-index-2024-...
I've read/heard about this innovation coming to the market in six months every few weeks for about ten years and it has never materialized. There are continuous, slight and consistent improvements to battery technology which add up over time, but none of the wunderwaffe battery technologies ever materialized into the market and produced any huge jumps.
I bought a second hand Zoe in the UK mainly because they are so common, which means parts should be still around for a while yet.
the leaf was an option, and I could have bought and upgraded the battery on an old one, but I think on balance the zoe was a better purchase for the same combined price. (for me, your mileage may vary)
In terms of practicality, for where I live (suburban, edge of a large city) it works perfectly well. We also fairly regularly do longer journeys, assuming its not getaway rush hour, charging is fine on motorways and crucially getting better
Gordon Gekko would buy it, break it into its constituent parts and sell them off for £5,000.
I rented a PHEV in Spain, and this was the biggest issue. Every charger has an app. They want all your information, even your home address, before charging. Most of them error out after you try to make it work in the 44 °C / 110 °F Spanish sun.
After trying five charging apps and only succeeding in one, I gave up charging completely because of the horrible experience. I wonder why EVs don't save credit information in the vehicle and negotiate payment with them via some sort of "Cable API" or something. Or even you know, use tap to pay PoS like every normal transaction does.
Until I got an EV and realized it's not really an issue. There is always an App for that (and even on my car the software gets improved in that regard).
Infrastructure is getting better, even companies starting to see it as a benefit to have cheap/free chargers at their offices to get people back.
I see more and more electric trucks on the roads. It feels good.
The other part that not a lot of people realise is if your journey is 300 miles and your car does 200 you don't charge another 200 miles into the battery, you charge 100 and then charge at the destination instead. With ICE vehicles if your going to get fuel typically you fuel it to the top but you don't do that with battery cars you want to charge them as little as possible while mid travelling and charge them while they are sat still at home or destination.
Its charging at home that really changes the experience too. The weekly trip to the fuel station disappears, depending on how often you exceed the range of the car you only really get exposed to the charging network and times when doing those journeys, you spend a lot less of your life in fuel stations!
[citation needed] considering plenty of people do it all the time (truck drivers)
I was debating an electric vehicle in 2023. There are maybe 10 people (out of about 200) at work that have electric cars. My teammate is one of the ten. He wakes up early to get a charger. He tracks down the other owners to ask them to use the charger after lunch. They started a group chat about the chargers.
My local grocery store has a bank of superchargers right in the middle of the parkinglot next to the main road. Some days the bank is full and teslas hang out waiting, but they have to wait half in the road to make sure they're close enough to be next in line.
My apartment complex has 2 chargers, and we get people coming in who don't live in the complex to use them. People wait next to the strangers to be sure to get the charger before walking home for the night.
This kind of social interaction and situations gives me huge anxiety.
I get gas once a week, dont wait in line, always works, don't talk to anyone, and I'm gone in less than 5 minutes.
Workplace charging gets extra competitive because it's often free, meaning all sorts of bad behavior is incentivized. It's weird how wound up people with $50,000 cars can get about $5 in free electricity.
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An apartment complex being built next door offers you to buy a parking lot together with the apartment, and optionally equip it with an EV charger. This is the way.
* Keeping the charge between 50-80% when manageable
* Charging up to 100% at least once a month, and letting it 'top off' to rebalance the pack for at least a few hours afterwards
* Not driving like a maniac, despite having more torque in this car than I've ever had in any of my previous cars
This kind of thing (minus the driving like a maniac bit) is what puts me off EVs. I guess it's unavoidable? My experience with laptop and phone batteries (holding much less charge pretty quickly) doesn't help. My phone (iPhone 12) says battery health is at 81% but it doesn't feel like it so I'm not sure I'd trust that Leaf saying it's got 93%.
They do degrade over time but very, very slowly. Absolutely not like phones. Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet.
Let me guess - Hyundai? They are notoriously lying about degradation.
Nowadays you don't have to do this. You can. Just like with your phone or laptop.
Funny, how 2 years old car is really old. For combustion engines, old is like 15+?
EVs will have the same problems as mobile phones. Maybe manufactures want that. But software will define the age of your car and I don’t like it. What if the car requires internet connection and the company dies?
This was the very first mass-market electric car, with only minor tweaks. It's not surprising that it's a bit rough around the edges. That's part of why they're cheap second-hand (along with the fact that the 3rd gen, which actually is a proper redesign, is coming out this year).
If the model gets even minor updates, manufacturing is happening right now, the car is either good enough or new enough in general, and we cannot use old as negative quality.
Electric motors existed before the combustion engine, and people keep talking about "rapidly evolving area", while the only thing that is rapidly evolving and specific to EVs is the power source. A battery, to be precise. It is all about battery, and nothing else.
Buying a 2nd-gen Leaf in 2025 would be a bit silly, unless you were getting a major discount.
There's probably going to be a surplus of off-lease Leafs coming up over the next one to three years which might make a great deal for people who can charge at home.
So they're basically 15 years old, technologically older than the Model S. Windows 7 was 1 year old when its basic systems shipped.
> What if the car requires internet connection and the company dies?
That's not a problem specific to EVs and with Chinese combustion car brands coming and going all the time, it's obvious.
Tangential trivia: BYD Dolphin Baseline is 20k new before subsidies in some places.
My Leaf from 2019 has 100% battery health and I always charge it to 100%. I almost never use fast charging though since it is a commute kind of car.
The leaf is a terrible steward if its battery. virtually every other car is better in virtually every single way.
As for the battery health rating, it's easy enough to measure. Go on the highway, keep it at 80 km/h straight and note how much range you get out of it. In practical commute settings, range will be longer than that anyway due to regenerative braking in all that start-stop-start-stop dance.
You THINK you're driving long distances every day and you THINK charging is a massive hassle where you have to drive to a Charging Site and wait for the car to charge for HOURS.
When in reality you plug in at home and have a full battery every morning.
And when the infrastructure is properly built (yay Finland), you can get a week's charge when you're getting groceries as the shop has multiple 100kW chargers along with a fleet of Level 2 (22kW) chargers.
The only times I need to actively think about charging are over 200-250km day trips (my old Ioniq EV has a WLTP of 300km on a warm summer day). And even then the kids an dogs need a bathroom break anyway and I need to walk around a bit to freshen up. 20-30 minutes gets us 100-150km of charge (old car, slow charging) and we're off again.
A couple of weeks later I went on holiday. I wouldn't be able to charge where I was stopping, and there were no chargers within 15 miles. I kept my diesel.
So what, that's something you find out once that your electric installation is shoddy enough to most likely be a fire risk (because the charger plug has a thermal protection built in!), fix it and then you won't have that problem again. And as the Leaf should have 150 miles worth of range, you still should have way more than enough range on the battery to do two days worth of commute even if you suddenly find out the trickle charge didn't work.
Right, but I should buy a house with a garage first.
>> charge when you're getting groceries as the shop has multiple 100kW
Unless you do groceries in unusual time, those chargers are occupied. Will you wait in line then?
We get 230V/16A from a bog standard outlet, three phase is triple that.
Until you do the math and realize that the 3-4 annual trips of multiple days would end up costing thousands of dollars in rental fees per year. Plus the usual inconveniences around renting.
Suddenly the math does not look so appealing.
First, 3-4 annual multi-day trips that go for longer than 300 km? If one has that amount of disposable income to afford that, go for whatever the biggest Tesla is and use Superchargers along the route, even drives so long they're a safety issue on its own due to fatigue don't get that much longer due to charging because kids will need to go to the toilet every so often even with an ICE.
As for the rental fees: here in Germany, I just checked - a Mercedes Benz Vito, so up to 8 people (or 6 people plus a ton of luggage), that's 50€ a day here. Crossing four digits takes 20 days of rental, that's a lot of vacation time even by European standards.
Indeed... but now, think of the price difference between a small-ish commute EV and a chungus EV or ICE. Easily tens of thousands of dollars, that's a lot of days worth of rent.
> Also expect to arrive and be told they can't fill your reservation as they are out of cars.
That's extremely fucking rare to happen. In the eventuality your reservation can't be filled, you'll usually get upgraded for free. Personally, got upgraded from a small VW Golf class to a VW Phaeton once, plus a day for free. And automatic, no stick shift like the Golf.
Not having any rental cars is very common in my experience. I'm often renting in smaller cities though (like the rental car place just a couple miles from my house), I've never heard of problems in big tourist destinations or large cities.
TL;DR is many EVs and hybrids (especially European ones) have tonnes of design faults with e-motors and power-electronics that not only make them ticking time bombs(not in the explosive sense) out of warranty, but also have malicious DRM making third party parts impossible to source, and repairs difficult and eye watering expensive even if theoretically EVs should be more reliable on paper than ICE cars.
Maybe the EU should focus more on EV/auto repairability regulations instead of smartphones and USB-C widgets.
Luckily EV Clinic is working hard on breaking the DRM and reverse engineering parts to make and sell aftermarket ones, but this shouldn't be needed in the first place if the OEMs weren't so bad at design, greedy and hostile to consumers and aftermarket repairs.
Seriously, we need regulations here ASAP. The free market doesn't work here for the consumer when OEMs all do the same anti consumer things.
> The EU did put in regulations, but they did the opposite and essentially mandated DRM
is the same statement as:
> following the posts of EV Clinic it seems like [the EU did] the opposite
Where both posts use "the opposite" to mean "the opposite of creating in regulations to enforce repairability" .
FYI: Mercedes Benz hybrids have a full(*) battery warranty. What's the asterisk you ask? The warranty only covers repairs up to the car's current value. Which has plummeted over the few years you've owned it and the cost of the battery is absolutely ridiculous. Like "buy 3 used Leafs" ridiculous.
Most hybrid batteries are also blobs of molten plastic and silicone that can't be repaired at all. EV batteries are constructed of semi-standard cells and can be opened and repaired piecemeal by specialist shops. Official repairs usually just swap the whole thing - again for a massive cost.
Maybe they should do both.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIQ-RROpls0
Yes, this involves lying on your back with a 700 lb battery held up by jacks just inches above your head. But heck, services are expensive these days so it's going to happen.
The big secret with bike commuting is that in urban setting on surface streets, its actually the fastest way to get around short of a motorcycle or helicopter. Yes, much faster than cars, thanks to lane splitting.
All this to say what he really needs was an electrically assisted bicycle instead of a huge and heavy energy wasting vehicle.
And that was without electric assist. When I look at the low average speed and time spent in car when I use one in an urban area, it just doesn't make any sense in most cities.
But the safety issue is another story though. Every time I relocated I took that parameter into account before choosing a new place.
There are 20A 120V circuits too! Called NEMA 5-20, one of its prongs is rotated. You plug that into a receptacle where one of the slots is T-shaped instead of straight. And it's standard practice for EVs to draw 80% of the maximum current, so 16A it is. I see this plug in larger machines in the office, like a large photocopier or a large vacuum.
They are also heavier, so need different set ups in order to handle decently.
But, that's why they look so different.
Yes EVs can keep their weight low, but it's a lot more weight to deal with.
Yes EVs have excellent 0-60, but that's just because they have a great launch. Even doing a 5-60 pull removes the EV advantage. Starting from highway speeds? EVs start to look real slow.
There are some good traits to EVs but, outside of launching hard in street car trim, performance is not one of them.
It's not M5 BMW hard, but it's hard. I guess that if you have a performance variant then maybe it would be.
Even with the benefits of EV packaging, manufacturers chose to make them “different” on purpose, which really put off the vast majority of buyers. Tesla had so much success because they were practically the first manufacturer to make something look somewhat normal and have good stats.
Now, BMW finally learned and has their 4 and 5 series EV cars share a common platform with the ICE. There is no physical difference in style other than the front grill.
The first gen leaf got a lot of commentary about this "EV look" and the contemporary Nissan Note had a similar front end. And then both got 2nd gens that evolved similarly.
Their Juke could be an overinflated Leaf at a glance etc.
Wikipedia photos:
1st gen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Note#/media/File:2005_N...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#/media/File:2017_N...
2nd gen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Note#/media/File:Nissan...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#/media/File:Nissan...
I've found myself taking a second look at a bunch of ICE cars recently as they've all started trying to copy elements from electric car design...
The Camry has a drag coefficient of about 0.36.
The Leaf is about 0.28.
https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Vehicle_Coefficient_of_Drag_List
Drag coefficient matters a lot for EVs. Air resistance reduces the range of all cars, but you notice the decrease in an EV. (When I plan a long trip, I use windy.com to see if I'll have a headwind or a tailwind and I plan accordingly.)
That's why EVs look different. And why EV trucks often have terrible range, even though they have more room for batteries.
The choice was
I'm so glad we picked the e-golf! It's so fast and nice to drive and cheap to run. Only downside is the limited range (200km on a summer day) but even my commute (100km one-way) is OK as I can charge at work and home.That said, we still have a Touran for when we need to drive further or with lots of luggage.
If only the chairs in the eGolf were a bit better...
The 400+hp Teslas are super-expensive to insure here in Sweden. Like 3x the price of only slightly cheaper, but less powerful EVs.
Are you worried or thought about resale value? Do you plan to keep it for long?
But if course CHAdeMO is dying. NACS is second best because it's less bulky than CCS, and NACS is winning in the US so the situation is less bad than it might have been.
That would be the only reason to get that car now days! Can the car just drive without Internet. I want my car to be my not connected to cloud for all kinds crap.
The software is pretty shit. Lagging and annoying. But apple/android play stops that.
As a car its smooth, quiet, and fast if you need to be. The only annoyance driving wise is that it doesn't have adaptive cruise control, and the reverse/drive/neutral switch always returns to the middle, so you can't tell what mode its set to without looking at it
Battery management on Zoés is fine ; it doesn't have the overheating problem that plagues the Leaf and the VW e-Up in particular; it doesn't have the "very slow charge when cold" problem of many cheap EVs with LiFePO4 batteries, though it charges up quite slowly (10-80% in 50 minutes).
Someone I know recently bought a 135HP 52kWh Zoé without CCS-2 and 22kW AC charge for 7500€. That's a real bargain, it'sequivalent for all practical purposes (but long travel) to a brand new 30000€ R5 :)
It's like a "lite" version of how some cars make you enter a stupid cheat code to reset your oil change reminder or some other thing that should just be in settings.
Oops. My work daily is the same Leaf, my personal car is a '95 1.8 Turbo Miata. The Leaf suffers.
Both I and the owner were very impressed. They ordered the 100mile battery pack, which was very expensive, but it has been great in the long run.
I think it was like 81% cheaper than a gasoline trip at the time not including long term wear and tear. ( Ware and Tare?$#).
I think the Nissan Leaf is the very best of the bunch.
> There is no 'play/pause' button. Anywhere. At least not on the steering wheel or the display area. You have to go into the music section on the entertainment display, then press the software play/pause button. That's dumb.
My new to me 2023 Honda Odyssey has the same stupid issue. It's my first vehicle with a touch screen, and I have a lot of trouble hitting the pause button especially when I'm trying to mute it because I need to pay extra attention to the road. WHY is there not just a Play/Pause button on the wheel!? Or at least a physical button on the dashboard.
i hate it too
The "how to juice your car" question is pretty much solved on the electrical and communications side... but the "how do you pay for the juice" question is indeed absurd. I understand that providers of high capacity charging stations wish to charge a bit extra because a single 200 kW+ DC charger quickly reaches 40k € in pure hardware cost, in addition to the installation cost and the regular swapping of cables due to thieves. But why the EU and the US governments haven't stepped in yet and mandated either a "roaming" standard (where my primary billing contact would be a regular electric utility with a set base price per kWh and optional surcharges for high-capacity chargers or stations in high demand) or acceptance of all common credit and debit cards is way beyond me.
Instead, it's not just multiple vendors, apps and payment methods - it's also a (sometimes wild) difference in price depending on how you pay, at the same station. In contrast, at each gas station there is a sign that's visible from afar stating the exact price for your fuel, with the only thing one might hope for is a 1 cent discount for high volume diesel fuel pumps (aka, your truck's hole is big enough to fit a truck diesel nozzle) and a further 1 cent discount from some sort of loyalty reward scheme.
- card acceptance is only required for 50 kW+ chargers. All the relatively low power chargers at supermarkets, shopping malls and other public venues? They can get by with offering QR codes that are all too often abused for phishing campaigns [2][3] and still have the issue with requiring some sort of app.
- the "card acceptance" may also be fulfilled by PSD2 compliant mobile banking apps, so if you got a rooted phone (where Google Pay is a cat-and-mouse game), a phone whose vendor is under sanctions and thus doesn't get the Google ecosystem or don't want to involve Google Pay, Apple Pay, PayPal or the likes in your daily life, you're screwed just as well at these charger points
On top of that, the standard to publish pricing information to the public coordination exchange is a hot XML/SOAP mess [4].
[1] https://nationale-leitstelle.de/ladeinfrastruktur-im-eu-kont...
[2] https://www.adac.de/news/verkehr-quishing-parkautomaten/
[3] https://www.adac.de/news/auto-quishing-betrug-ladesaeule/
[4] https://nationale-leitstelle.de/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/M...
The neutral and parking brake issues: that just by itself should make Nissan stocks plummet. 2025 and we have these issues? It definitely looks an involution to me.
Things we humans are still lame at: adapters. Power adapters, cable data adapters. Why do we have bazillions adapters?
Can't we just design one adapter for the whole world that makes happy both manufacturers and customers? If not governments should step in and force manufacturers to include all adapters ever needed as part of a car purchase. That you have to spend more money just to charge a car because of the adapter is ridiculous.
If EVs are in this line of quality/user experience in general, thanks I'll pass and get something reliable and old school that actually works as expected.
Edit: And we don't need mobile apps to control our cars. Another really stupid and ridiculous idea that has been pushed to customers when no-one actually asked for that.
As if regulations work. They seem to have very strange situations over there.
Come to think of it, I have no idea how to get my car in to neutral.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV
"In 2020, the Mini EV had a price starting at US$4,162, and topped out at US$5,607 for a fully loaded model, making it China's cheapest electric car."
Are EVs still the rage? I mean, within normal people circles not doing "the current thing" like lefty tech dorks tend to do?
It seems like you have some kind of issue, but I'm not sure what it is.
Where I am there is a decent rail network, and the rail provider has a fleet of EVs for rent, where the cost of the electricity is included. This provides a "green" last mile solution even if the public transport itself in each area may be lacking (often it's not however).
So a trip looks like this:
Hop on the train which quickly takes the lion's-share of the travelling distance, then switch to an EV that fills the gap to the final destination/s. Then do this process in reverse to get home.
This approach solves the largest problems presented by the author.
What the USA lacks is a robust network. The spread of rail is too thin to be useful for everyday use.
The only time it makes sense to buy an EV is if it's used.
Edit: He bought used.
> You should never purchase EVs, only lease them. That's what I did. This saves you from the terrible depreciation they have.
> The only time it makes sense to buy an EV is if it's used.
Coming in too hot, friend! The headline, and opening line, is that it is a used EV.
the artile is a guy who drives his cars 'into the ground' - he wouldn't care about value he cares about how long it will run.
[1] chassis+body+suspension basically a car without powertrain and interior trim
You can lease a used Tesla Model 3 for $5k/24mo. Say the used Leaf was $15k, it would need to be worth at least $10k in 2027.