This is one of the best linked articles about ADHD i've seen on HN.
Especially because it gets quickly to the most important point which often times is still neglected:
> The first-line treatment for ADHD is stimulants. Everything else in this post works best as a complement to, rather than as an alternative to, stimulant medication. In fact most of the strategies described here, I was only able to execute after starting stimulants. For me, chemistry is the critical node in the tech tree: the todo list, the pomodoro timers, etc., all of that was unlocked by the medication.
This means: You do have to see a physician and psychologist to get diagnosed and to get a therapy plan. Just reading articles or books about managing ADHD won't do the trick.
kstrauser · 6h ago
I wish I could go back in time and drill this into my own head. I evolved a large set of coping mechanisms that let me get by alright without medicines. I was putting food on the table and a roof over our heads. Still, it took a phenomenal amount of mental effort just to get started with critical things. I'd have all my tax receipts scanned in and organize and just needed to make an appointment to send it all to my accountant, but I'd sit on that until the last minute. I knew it needed to be done. There was no reason not to do it. I wanted to do it. I was ready to do it. And yet, I couldn't freaking do it.
It was the equivalent of running a marathon carrying an 80 pound backback. Yeah, with enough work you can do it, but you're not going to be setting any records.
Stimulant meds have been lifechanging for me. I'm not magically doing more than I was before. Those coping mechanisms took me pretty far. It's that I'm doing it all without delaying them until they became emergencies, which is what it use to take before I could even get started. My life is so much easier and less stressful now.
I took that backpack off and how I can run the same race as everyone else. And you know what? When you've been practicing your whole life with an extra weight on your back, and you take it off, sometimes it's surprising how fast you can go.
In before "of course it's easy, you're on meth!" Yeah, that sounds reasonable if you know nothing about ADHD. I've talked about this here before, but Aderrall has no noticeable stimulant effect for me at all. I feel a good cup of coffee much more than my daily meds, which is to say, not a lot. It doesn't give me extra energy or alertness or anything else. It just tells my brain, hey, did you know you're allowed to get started on things before they become emergencies?
tonyarkles · 3h ago
Late diagnosis here (38 when diagnosed, now 42)… I agree with everything you said. I had an amazing set of systems and coping mechanisms in place to get through life without realizing I was playing the game on hard mode. In retrospect, the signs were all there my whole life but I just hadn’t had the realization.
Now that I’m medicated (methylphenidate), I still lean on those systems but they serve me very very well. I remember details much better than I did, but don’t always remember them long-term. The note taking system and habit that I developed years ago is now… supercharged because I am so much better about keeping good notes.
On the coffee/meds thing, I agree. I don’t get a buzz from the medication the way I do from coffee, but before my diagnosis I was drinking a ridiculous amount of coffee every day just to stay focused, with the associated buzz and jitters. I still have a cup or two of coffee in the morning, but drinking anywhere near as much as I used to is pretty much unbearable.
combyn8tor · 1h ago
Wow I could have wrote this exactly excepy for a 1 year difference in diagnosis.
It's hard to reconcile with how difficult it was previously. Life on hard mode is a term ived used too. I try to think that it was all to make me stronger for the second half of my life, but I still regularly wonder what could have been.
tonyarkles · 1h ago
One of my favourite lines: “I could solve differential equations all day long, but I couldn’t remember to pay my phone bill”
kstrauser · 1h ago
To quote Ron White, "I'm smart, but you can't prove it on paper."
tonyarkles · 1h ago
Heh, my undergrad transcript is so funny to look at in hindsight. Great grades in the hard courses, terrible grades in the easy courses. Did well on the final exams for all of them, couldn't be arsed to do the homework for the boring ones.
kstrauser · 42m ago
Please stop telling the world about my school experience!
One time I realized I hadn't gone to my intro chemistry class yet that semester and had a test that day. I went, bluffed my way through based on what I remembered from high school chemistry, figured out mid-test how to calculate rate-limiting reactions, and aced it. My then-girlfriend, now-wife was so incredibly annoyed with me about every bit of that. "What do you mean, you hadn't gone to class, ever? And that you still aced the test?!"
And I also failed a comparatively easy general ed class because I just couldn't convince my brain to care, even though I know I needed it and certainly didn't want to take it a second time.
tonyarkles · 31m ago
Heh, yeah… I still occasionally have nightmares about something like that happening. Just completely forgetting about being registered in a class and walking in half-way through the year.
Had a midterm for a class I did actually like that went sort of how you described. I prepared for it a bit and was sitting around with some friends killing time before the 2pm exam. It’s about 1:40pm, I figure it’s time to head over. Go to the course website to find which room the exam is in and discover that the exam started at 1pm. Run over there, get there at 1:50pm, and finish the exam before the 2:30pm end time. Hand it in, the professor knew I’d been really late and had a weird look on his face as I give it to him. He looks it over, smiles, and says “I was going to offer some extra time for you because of the mix-up but… looking at your answers here… I don’t think you need it! See you on Thursday!”
kstrauser · 26m ago
I believe every word of this because I could absolutely see it happening to me.
ADHD cheers, friend. I'm proud of us for making it this far.
No comments yet
bumblehean · 3h ago
I really wish my body could tolerate stimulants.
I tried the major ones (Adderall, Ritalin, Vyvanse, Concerta, etc.). They all made dealing with ADHD significantly easier, but even at the lowest doses they turned me into an extremely anxious and irritable person. I had never experienced anything close to a panic attack or nervous breakdown in my 30+ years of being alive until I started taking stimulant medication.
I decided that living with untreated ADHD was the better alternative, so now I'm back to copious amounts of coffee to deal.
kamranjon · 2h ago
Just a heads up, Ive taken stimulants on and off as a treatment for ADHD for many years but my body/emotional health always felt compromised as a result. I've recently started on a non-stimulant ADHD medication called Atomoxetine and so far it has not had the emotional blunting, irritable effect of stimulants at all, and I haven't noticed any negative effects so far. It seems to help me get over the hump of being able to start things and stay with them which has always been my biggest downfall. We will see if I stick with it, but just wanted to mention that there are alternatives. There is also another medication called Guanfacine that I may try if this current medication does not work out - I don't think I can go back to stimulants.
bumblehean · 2h ago
Interesting! I'll be sure to ask my doctor about those options
InMice · 3h ago
Same here, the lowest dose concerta keeps me wide awake for 24 hours. The non stimulants give me side effects not touching those with a 10 foot pole. Did you try 2.5mg ritalin? i think thats the lowest dose.
klipklop · 2h ago
If you can’t sleep, for sure avoid extended release meds like Concerta. Stick with immediate release with no afternoon doses. Take it the second you get out of bed. You want to time things so it wears off after your work day and you begin to get tired.
k__ · 2h ago
On Vyvanse, I felt like a machine for like two weeks. Couldn't sleep and had to be productive.
After that it normalized.
I started taking it 1h before I get out of bed every morning, so I could sleep well at night.
sapphicsnail · 15m ago
> This means: You do have to see a physician and psychologist to get diagnosed and to get a therapy plan. Just reading articles or books about managing ADHD won't do the trick.
The cruel paradox of ADHD treatment. I only got meds in the first place because my husband was able to follow through with getting me the appointments. It's been life changing. I needed a ton of support before and now we've reached parity with chores and finances. I never could have gotten that first step without someone helping me though.
anonymars · 1h ago
Here's a fun fact. In the US, if you would like to fly a plane, and you have undiagnosed and thus untreated ADHD, no problemo.
But if you do end up taking stimulant medication for ADHD, that's not allowed. So unfortunately sometimes (rather often with the FAA) it's better not to ask questions you don't want the answer to.
_moof · 47m ago
The amount of undiagnosed ADHD (and secretly treated anxiety and depression, for that matter) in the aviation industry is off the charts. I have a lot of respect for most of the FAA, which is professional, reasonable, and evidence-based. But the FAA aeromedical division is a joke. They're bullies with a stone-age mentality about treatments and medications that have been accepted for decades.
zozbot234 · 21m ago
I might agree in principle, but aviation pilots are glorified bus/truck drivers. It's the farthest thing from a job that might cater to a typical "ADHD" skills profile. What you really want in that role is people who can be dependable without relying on intoxicating substances that might have weird side effects.
anonymars · 12m ago
This is the same fallacy that always comes up. People are already flying this way!
What is the difference between someone with ADHD who passed their pilot lessons but doesn't have a diagnosis and is not taking medication vs someone with ADHD who is getting help?
Why is this an aeromedical issue and not a certification issue? What is the training and testing for if not to confirm that someone has the skills to successfully fly a plane?
volemo · 3h ago
The country I live in prohibits stimulants and moving is not an option for the time being. What are my options besides atomoxetine?
scns · 3h ago
Bupropion would be one. Helps with quitting smoking, which around 50% of ADDers do, too.
tonyarkles · 3h ago
I posted elsewhere in the thread about my late diagnosis. When I was much younger than when I was diagnosed, I was on Bupropion for smoking cessation and it had a pretty significant positive effect for me with respect to my ADHD symptoms (which I didn’t recognize as ADHD at the time). Definitely worth exploring; it doesn’t work for everyone but it can be quite effective if it does work for you.
code_biologist · 2h ago
I would second your suggestion to investigate bupropion. More than a decade ago I was suffering from severe depression. Psychiatrists with meds were an easy-to-access front line treatment, but I was very concerned about SSRI side effects, particularly erectile side effects. It didn't take much persuading to have the psychiatrist prescribe bupropion instead of an SSRI. I too felt it helped with my then undiagnosed ADHD a lot.
As a note, bupropion did make me feel a little funny. It wasn't bad, weird, or intolerable, but yes I did have a faint perceptual awareness that I was in a medicated state.
tonyarkles · 2h ago
For the first couple of weeks the first time I took it, Bupropion:
- made me feel pretty energetic. Not buzzed, but maybe counteracted low-grade depression. I was on it because I wanted to quit smoking, because I was hoping quitting smoking would make me feel better/happier
- slightly affected my vision/perception. Colours seemed more vibrant. Everything just felt perceptually… brighter.
- made me really horny, but not in a compulsive way. It wasn’t distracting and didn’t cause any problems, but I definitely had more drive. When it was go time, it was Go Time :)
zozbot234 · 1h ago
What's up with the bullet points? This almost reads like a ChatGPT/AI comment, which is especially weird for a personal recollection. Are people writing like frickin robots now?
zargon · 1h ago
Don’t be an ass. People used lists before LLMs.
tonyarkles · 1h ago
They’re just lucky I didn’t have a big run-on sentence, like I used to before taking a serious look at how ADHD affected my writing and thought processes, including significant use of parentheticals (because every thought comes with a couple of extra thoughts, for free!)
:D
tonyarkles · 1h ago
Lol that’s how I’ve written for 25 years. I’m flattered that LLMs are copying me.
talys_cat · 3h ago
a) try to find a way to fill declaration of prescribed medications for customs and for police. (let the google/llm and local adhd communities help you) Find verified cases of how that have worked for others in your particular country.
Sometimes workarounds exists, but it would take some paperwork
b) plan a trip to the Turkey, find a specialist there, get the prescription, do all the paperwork/preparations before going back
c) fill all the papers and get the approval at customs even if they didn't know about that before - prepare all the necessary links to official documents, as maybe you would have to explain them how to do their job
p.s. I know that feeling. Atomoxetine is full of side effects without direct effects.
Otek · 3h ago
Caffeine perhaps? Yerba mate? Also CBT therapy on its own is pretty good.
normie3000 · 3h ago
Khat?
whycome · 3h ago
Nicotine. But not the smokeable kind. And low dosage. But not if you’re likely to get addicted.
The absurdity is that your country definitely makes it legal for historical reasons rather than useful less addicting stimulants.
cardanome · 2h ago
Nicotine is amazing... for a week. Then you will be chasing the dragon forever. Tolerance builds up crazy fast and doesn't meaningfully lower even when you cease smoking for years.
Plus pretty bad for your health and crazy addictive. Absolutely not a good recommendation.
No comments yet
dingnuts · 3h ago
nicotine is ridiculously addictive. everyone is likely to get addicted to it
whycome · 2h ago
I agree that it’s ridiculously addictive. There’s a big correlation to delivery type and how your brain can associate it to drive that compulsion. It’s very fast acting, esp when smoked.
As someone who is struggling with ADHD and tried Ritalin at one point. The Ritalin did not really change anything for me, I was calmer, but it didn't help me get a better grip on my life so to say. Do you think there is a chance this would be different for other stimulants? Just looking for some experiences people had I guess.
kstrauser · 2h ago
I think it's worth trying. I started with Focalin but found Adderall works better for me. It's a little different for everyone.
throwingawayusr · 5h ago
One thing I haven’t ever seen mentioned in these threads is how do people who can’t handle stimulants get by?
bfouts · 4h ago
I take guanfacine. It’s an older blood pressure medication that happens to treat adhd. I also have high blood pressure so I get an added bonus. Stimulants are great for laser focus. Guanfacine helps with focus but its biggest help, for me, is executive function and curbs some of my emotional effects of adhd. I notice I’m not as sensitive to feedback or criticism.
zozbot234 · 5h ago
Coffee and chocolate (plus potentially tobacco) are technically stimulants, 100% legal, and people seem to handle them just fine. Just take them strategically as opposed to recreationally (i.e. only as support for building up healthy habits; go cold-turkey otherwise!) and you should do just fine. The effect is way stronger than most people might think, provided that habituation hasn't built up and the existing tolerance has been dissipated.
dns_snek · 4h ago
I wouldn't necessarily recommend nicotine. It works and alleviates ADHD symptoms at first which is great but that also makes it really addictive. I can't comprehend the level of discipline I would need to use nicotine without becoming addicted and I'm not prone to addiction generally.
mordechai9000 · 3h ago
I don't think it is a question of discipline when it comes to addiction - if you are taking it on a regular basis at a high enough dose to become addicted, you will become addicted, and you will have withdrawal symptoms when you stop taking it.
It might be possible to manage the addiction and maybe keep it from escalating with discipline, but the addiction will always be there.
Humans are excellent at denying addiction and rationalizing addictive behavior. And you don't even realize you are doing it - I've seen it in myself with cigarettes, which I fortunately quit years ago.
zozbot234 · 3h ago
The interesting thing wrt. this is that nicotine replacement products are widely available without a prescription. Would people really get seriously addicted to e.g. wearing a transdermal patch?
tonyarkles · 2h ago
For N=1 (me), yes. I’ve been a smoker since I was about 12 years old and have tried to quit multiple times (short-term successfully a few times). I’ve had a few experiences with transdermal nicotine.
When I was in the hospital and couldn’t get out of bed, the nurses provided me with some. They seemed to be partially working, but I was still having pretty intense cravings all the time. After doing a bit of napkin math I realized that the patches were only providing about 1/3 of the daily nicotine I’d been consuming before my appendectomy.
When I tried to quit on my own, I started out with the recommended dosage from the package and had the same experience. They modulated the cravings a bit but were nowhere near effective enough to actually allow me to go through the day without chronic acute cravings. I bumped up my daily dose from the patches and did successfully stop smoking, but trying to reduce the dose too much led to the same brutal cravings. I ended up abandoning patches as a way to quit because of the daily hassle of trying to slowly wean myself off of the patches; a full patch decrement was too much at once, so I was cutting them into halves and quarters to try to make progress without ruining my concentration and focus.
zozbot234 · 2h ago
> ...without ruining my concentration and focus.
I suspect that this just isn't in the cards given that kind of situation. You're ultimately just better off suffering through that withdrawal (especially since you've said you were in a frickin' hospital to begin with. It's not like you're losing that much effectiveness and productivity) and trying to find a new normal after the worst symptoms are over. It might take some time but our best guess is that kind of habituation is not permanent, so you should see quite a bit of improvement over time if you just stick to it.
tonyarkles · 1h ago
> thread about ADHD
> so you should see quite a bit of improvement over time if you just stick to it.
:D
mordechai9000 · 2h ago
I'm surprised they gave you nicotine patches - was this an American hospital? I always thought they want you to suffer withdrawal as a punishment for the moral failure of being a smoker. Also, there are probably some risks with throwing nicotine into the mix of whatever drugs they might be giving you.
I used the patch to quit, and I used to enjoy slapping those patches on in the morning almost as much as I enjoyed a morning cigarette.
tonyarkles · 1h ago
Canadian hospital. It was an appendectomy, the only other medication I was on was morphine. The nurse actually offered the patches to me on her own after noticing a pack of smokes in the pocket of the sweater I was wearing when I went to the ER.
mordechai9000 · 2h ago
Humans can get addicted to anything that triggers a reward. Even things that seem gross or weird, like picking your scabs. The line between addiction and compulsion is kind of blurry.
whycome · 3h ago
The addiction some people have to caffeine is just as crazy. So, I guess it depends on a bunch of physiological and psychological factors.
No comments yet
tonyarkles · 2h ago
Lol I will provide a small anecdote as a warning from my own life. I was at a point (pre-diagnosis) where I felt my caffeine intake had reached an addiction-like level and had decided to wean myself down to a more sustainable level. I’d read about adenosine receptors and the different substances that can act as stimulants/inhibit adenosine. I was starting to get a bit of a caffeine headache + drowsiness and the good idea fairy told me “hey why don’t you have some chocolate instead? Theobromine is an adenosine-receptor antagonist so it might help without consuming any caffeine”
This led to what was probably the worst headache of my life. I don’t know enough pharmacology to understand how exactly that worked, but it was terrible. Having a cup of coffee reversed the effect pretty quickly, luckily.
dns_snek · 5h ago
There are non-stimulant medications for ADHD but I think their effectiveness is more variable, they work well for some people and not at all for others. Strattera, guanfacine, and wellbutrin come to mind.
Outside of medication there's therapy, cognitive training, coaching, etc.
Take less. I don't mean to be snarky, but if it makes you anxious, it's too much. If 5 mg of Adderall feels like too much, I think the issue is just that you feel different. Give it a few weeks. Psychotropic medication isn't an instant fix without side effects. You'll get used to it.
leoc · 5h ago
Getting diagnosed and medicated should absolutely be the first port of call and one should do it without delay. However I should add that they never made much concrete difference to my "clinical outcomes". Now I'm sure I was holding them wrong (or holding the wrong model of iPhone), and I should get around to getting prescribed again, but if your main problem is anxious procrastination I honestly think you should temper your expectations about what drugs (or certainly methylphenidate or amphetamine) will do for you.
steezeburger · 5h ago
Do you mean this because the stimulants can also cause anxiety?
nerdsniper · 4h ago
They can for some people on some days or parts of days (my anxiety peaks when stimulants are wearing off). But like the other poster said, its more that they do nothing to solve it. I found a beta blocker in addition to stimulants was good at unlocking my productivity. YMMV.
Additionally, the boost in dopamines rewards anything you happen to be doing, so it can lock you into your avoidant behavior that day once you start doing it.
No, not that (though I'm sure they can cause anxiety under certain circumstances, consult your physician etc.) It's just that IME they do basically nothing one way or the other about anxious procrastination, so if that's the thing that's killing you ...
liotier · 1h ago
Excess caffeine poured on anxious procrastination makes me a disaster of a person.
fragmede · 3h ago
Medication alone won't do it. Talk therapy, so that you have someone to talk about your anxieties with, and get at the underlying emotional issues driving that, are requisite. Stimulant medication alone won't stop you from reading Reddit for 6 hours instead of doing what you're avoiding doing. You'll just get a really intense Reddit session out of it. Don't draw the wrong conclusion here, which would be to not take it if you are so affected because it won't work. They do, but that it's something to be aware of. There's no quick fix, it's gonna take work.
leoc · 2h ago
I'm afraid I have to say that in my experience talking therapy is even less effective than drugs, which at least do something. But again, I'm not discouraging anyone from pursuing these pathways: do it if you can, and as soon as possible, partly because the problem's unlikely to get better over time. But don't get your hopes up, if you're primarily an anxious procrastinator.
(I should add that IME "body doubling"/"task shadowing" is somewhat effective, though not very consistently. It's also probably the hardest intervention to get, though maybe things like Focusmate https://www.focusmate.com/ might help with that nowadays.)
tonyarkles · 3h ago
One of the things that I have found is very important for me: when you take your medication, make sure you’re doing something you want to be doing for a while. Like you say… if the medication starts working while I’m browsing Reddit, I’m probably going to keep doing that for a while.
Since Concerta is extended-release, this usually means that I have to start work early most days. If I take the medication too late in the day it’ll disturb my ability to get to sleep, and since the medication has mostly worn off by that time it’ll generally mean… browsing Reddit in bed until way later than I should be up.
niemandhier · 5h ago
True to a point:
Noting that has an effect has no side effect.
Some of us have to deal with the decision of a loved one taking meds and increasing their probability of a sudden cardiac death ( by qt Interval prolongation ) or staying unmediated.
Strategies to deal with ADS without meds are valuable I situations like this.
__float · 4h ago
> Some of us have to deal with the decision of a loved one taking meds and increasing their probability of a sudden cardiac death...
Why is this such a concern to you? At some point, everything has _some_ risk, and this feels like you're putting a lot of guilt on someone else for making a medical decision they deserve to make on their own.
zephyrthenoble · 13m ago
So many drugs that unequivocally improve people's health have minor negative side effects. I think this person needs to find a way to connect with their loved ones and understand how the medication they are taking is love changing. I know it is for me.
niemandhier · 2h ago
The parent is explicitly endorsing stimulants. Those work well to some extend for treating ADHS, but in general evidence is rather weak for then improving academic achievement, while evidence is rather strong for behaviour changes that makes it easier for teachers to deal with kids, see e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38871418/.
Pharmacology is not my main area of expertise but I used to do a lot of work in cardiology, and anything that increases the QT interval in the ecg increases the risk of Torsades de Pointes.
Rule of thumb is 5–7% more TdP risk per 10 ms QTc.
Quite a few adhs meds do this moderately, not enough to make an ecg mandratory.
I still believe that making medications the default for adhs is not warranted given the side effects, especially since in many cases it’s not clear if it treats the condition or just makes the lives of education professionals easier.
kace91 · 2h ago
I’m reading this as a person diagnosed in their thirties and it feels a bit detached from reality frankly.
I, and millions other people, could tell you that it does immensely benefit with issues like executive dysfunction. Medication quite literally made the problem I had been battling for decades disappear instantly.
Associating adhd just with childhood is in itself an obsolete view that causes issues for people.
kstrauser · 2h ago
Preach it, although now it's crystal clear to me that I've dealt with ADHD since around middle school age and was fully in its throes by high school. Part of me wonders what my life would be like if I'd started treatment then and it was as effective as it's been for me as an adult.
gooodvibes · 6h ago
Thank you - I've been putting off getting an assessment and seeking medication for a while, and I've just booked an appointment with a psychiatrist after reading your comment.
margor · 6h ago
I have to add my 5 cents to that because I've experienced something I've not seen anyone else experience and I think it might be worth to share it with others that might struggle with the same.
I had various neurological issues for the past 10 years, some of them common like visual migraine auras, GAD, panic attacks, and some of the less known and frankly hard to describe - visual snow, poor night vision, problems with adapting to light/dark places, constant fatigue, over stimulation (pins and needles over the whole body when overheating, as an example). On top of that, ADHD and I was really afraid of any and all kinds of medication, especially mind altering ones.
At one moment, I was in a really bad shape and place mentally and I decided to get professional help and start medicating, as I felt nothing else can help me anymore. And believe me, I did try all kinds of therapies, exercising (how do you do it with constant fatigue?), mindfulness and meditation (closing eyes when stressed was horrible experience for me!), nothing helped.
Look, you can tell me it's placebo or whatever, but I started on SNRIs and later on stimulants for ADHD. It took me _2 weeks_, to cure 80% of my neurological issues. It was almost like someone flipped a light switch in my nervous system. I still can't fully believe it or even try to understand, but my theory is that I've been genetically destined to have these problems, and "just trying hard enough" was not enough and would've never been enough.
SNRIs cured my neurological issues, and stimulants like Ritalin gave me willpower to start making positive changes and for the first time - start making habits. I believe, at least in my case, it would've been impossible without medication, or it would take me half my life to get to a place where I would've felt comfortable with myself and my problems. I believe my life is too short to fight with all of these issues alone, and I'm really glad I did start that.
tl;dr: medication gave me my life back, not just from ADHD but from variety of other issues, that ADHD just exacerbated. Please do try medication, it's not a one way door and we humans don't have infinite willpower to deal with all the issues on their own.
simonbw · 6h ago
In a similar vein to "try medication", I'd like to add "don't write all medication off after one doesn't work". The first seven medications I tried had basically negligible effects, and then the eighth one I tried (also an SNRI) had absolutely life changing effects within hours. I had the same moment where it seemed like a switch flipped and I couldn't believe the difference one medication could make.
A big realization I had was that doctors don't necessarily start by prescribing the medication that's most likely to help, they prescribe the one that's got the highest expected benefit to negative side effect ratio.
kstrauser · 6h ago
Absolutely. If you're having problems, please consult a doctor! Medicine can't fix everything, but there's a whole lot that a good doctor can help with.
If you had diabetes, you wouldn't feel hesitant to take insulin. It's not a moral failure. It doesn't mean you're weak or bad or a disappointment. It just means you have a medical issue that can be treated. Well, same here.
phoronixrly · 6h ago
Just chiming in to mark the importance of the seeing an actual physician part. To get diagnosed, prescribed medicine and have treatment follow-ups.
AlecSchueler · 5h ago
Problem is I'll keep putting that appointment off...
tonyarkles · 2h ago
Heh, the psychiatrist who diagnosed me laughed a little when I showed up rushed and late to my first appointment.
The good news is that after you’ve been diagnosed, getting near the bottom of the bottle of pills is a great reminder to call the pharmacy for a refill. Plus… shortly after noticing that you’re almost out happens to coincide with the medication taking effect, so you’ll be in the perfect place to make that call!
dns_snek · 4h ago
Yes, though it might take more than one to find someone who's actually qualified and up to date on evidence-based treatment of ADHD. There are some really ignorant physicians out there who are still peddling misinformation that's been debunked for over 20 years.
PacketDoc · 1m ago
As a life long member of the decision paralysis club, this was incredibly refreshing to read. Have been getting better, but reading this has brought it back to the forefront of good habits.
bentt · 4h ago
Here's a TODO hack that really helps me:
If you finish a task that wasn't on your TODO list, don't fret. Just add it but don't check it off. Then when you come back to the list later, you check it off. This reminds you that you did it and gives you the gratification of completing it. Otherwise, the finished task will slide into oblivion and poke at your self-worth along the way.
fudged71 · 4h ago
This maps pretty closely to the theories of Dr. Russell Barkley!
However. The article encourages a diagnostic approach—it asks the reader to introspect and identify the root cause of their inaction. But by omitting both PDA and RSD from its list of potential causes, it creates a "diagnostic trap" that can lead to misdiagnosis and self-blame. The omission is particularly damaging because PDA and RSD are two of the most powerful (and often invisible) drivers of severe, persistent avoidance.
Arch-TK · 4h ago
I am obviously not a psychologist, I got kind of worried reading this that maybe I had misdiagnosed myself and that going the route of official diagnosis would lead to a lot of wasted effort. But reading into these two things you describe (Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) and Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD)), I am glad to note that I don't think I've ever had anything of the sort.
But I agree it's good to spread awareness of these kinds of things.
fudged71 · 4h ago
These are the two articles that got me to get diagnosed:
I have the sinking feeling of having both, they both explain me very well.
novok · 3h ago
It's not just ADHD people who are like this, ASD people can be too.
tonyarkles · 2h ago
While I do think the distinction between ADHD and ASD is still useful in some ways, mostly around having signposts regarding where to start for treatment… a number of people in my life, myself included, are basically “mix-and-match from both lists of symptoms”. Some very clearly are majority from one list or the other, but most are both to varying degrees.
novok · 2h ago
yes you can have both, but they are both distinct. ASD is not really treatable with stimulants.
tonyarkles · 1h ago
That’s exactly what I mean. The distinction is useful for determining treatment approaches but overall it might be more useful to generally look at them together holistically.
In my own case, I was diagnosed with ADHD. Autism didn’t enter the discussion even a little bit. I’m medicated with stimulants and it works well for me for executive dysfunction part of my overall symptoms. It’s only very recently, while helping someone close to me go through a combo diagnosis, that I’m realizing that there are probably some other traits I have that would be better addressed with Autism counselling.
Arch-TK · 4h ago
It's heartening to read the comments in these threads and see that this might actually be the problem I have dealt with for 29 years and that there might be a solution for it.
Now the hard part is getting myself to fill out the paperwork required to get the NHS to pay someone to look at it.
dmbche · 4h ago
You might want to just have a chat with your dr, as you'll likely try something like concerta if you are diagnosed - but you can skip the long process of diagnostic and just try the medication if you fill out a few questionnaires. At that point it's pretty self evident if the medication helps the issue or not and bam, you might have solved your problem without going through the hurdles.
Arch-TK · 4h ago
Tried to speak to my GP and my local surgery told me to either register for the NHS waiting list (probably 100 years long at this point) or use the right to choose process to get the NHS to pay for me to see a private clinic (takes 2-8 weeks to see someone instead of years).
They didn't even suggest that I could/should speak to my GP first. And I can't actually get an appointment with my GP other than the way I specifically tried to. At least not my local GP.
dmbche · 3h ago
That sucks, I'd love to be of more help, but I'm in Canada.
If you're able to, I'd go for the private option. Really, the medication helps tremendously and having access to it makes every other step easier to take - I really wouldn't have thought that's how it would make me feel.
Good luck going forward!
coldblues · 16m ago
For those who cannot be prescribed amphetamines, I recommend seeking out Modafinil. It works really well and a regular psychiatrist should be able to prescribe it.
lifeisstillgood · 5h ago
>>> An example: you have to fill out some government form. You’re averse to it because you worry about making a mistake. And just the thought of opening the form fills you with dread. So, take the boxes in the form, and make a spreadsheet for them. If fonts/colours/emojis/etc. if that makes it feel more personal, or like something you designed and created. Then fill out the form in the spreadsheet. And then copy the values to the form and submit.
Oh wow this spoke to me - do it a lot …
amelius · 16m ago
> Using OCD to Defeat ADHD
Does this also work in the opposite direction?
leroux-cifer · 2h ago
> I can notice if something has not been worked on for a while, and act on it. Otherwise: out of sight, out of mind.
A visual indicator for task age works wonders for me. I use parentheses to show the age of a task. As the parentheses accumulate it's very obvious what I'm behind on. e.g. ")))))))))) respond to important email".
Works especially well for recurring tasks: the parentheses disappear when the task is marked complete.
I try to keep my lists as small and up-to-date as possible and this serves as a staleness indicator as well.
I have set up my projects in a way that whenever I work ok it, all the context I need is available from one single starting point. My goal is that zero friction is needed for to resume work on any project, no matter how long it was paused.
My habit to keep the context for each project fresh is a at-least weekly, timestamped, append-only Captain‘s Log, which - just as its namesake - is a very brief 1-2 sentence summary of what’s going on for everyone to get back into the story after the commercial break. „No updates“ is a valid update. Since its append-only, retrieving more context is just a matter of keeping on reading after having read the latest update.
dzhar11 · 3h ago
I appreciate the author's notes on managing ADHD. I was glad to find I didn't learn much new, because I'm already applying many of these practices.
I've tried several to-do apps, but centralized systems didn't work for me. I now use multiple to-do lists across different media: some on paper, some on my phone, others in markdown files within project folders... sending email to myself. It may seem messy, but it works for me. One system doesn't fit everyone. And any customization and tweaks are encouraged.
Books that helped me:
Atomic Habits by James Clear emphasizes small, consistent changes. Over time, they build into significant improvement. It’s better to improve your system gradually than attempt a major overhaul.
The Now Habit by Neil Fiore offers tools to overcome procrastination and start tasks. It helped me understand my resistance and find ways to move forward.
Getting Things Done by David Allen focuses on reviews and planning. I struggle to make time for them regularly, but even occasional reviews help.
Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, especially annotated versions, provide a Stoic perspective. His reflections on virtue and responsibility inspire me. He seemed to dislike being emperor, preferring philosophy, but accepted his role out of duty. That example helps me do necessary tasks, even when I don't feel like it.
hxii · 47m ago
I guess I have some reading to do tomorrow! Which is also a great reminder that I should update my own posts with all my current techniques of managing with ADHD.
zaptheimpaler · 5h ago
IDK if I have ADHD but I started taking Bupropion to help me quit smoking and stayed on it because I feel better on it, and naturally have picked up a lot of this organizational stuff over the past few years like lots of reminders, notes, managing inboxes, calendars, pomodoro. I don't think I've had or have any of the main symptoms of ADHD but sometimes I see a post like this and think maybe? It's also hard because the list of symptoms of ADHD in pop culture seems to be growing out into infinity and it's difficult to separate what's actually ADHD and what's not.
bflesch · 4h ago
Also there many are other potential factors such as desk-job, sports, sun exposure, and nutrition.
HOWEVER, there are also birth defects such as the MTHFR gene mutation which reduce Vitamin B12 utilization of your cells by as much as 70%. It has far-reaching consequences for every single cell in your body. Modern medicine is mainly symptom-based and things like chronic Vitamin B12 deficiency are hard to diagnose (unlike famous low Vitamin D levels). In many countries you can't even sequence DNA of your own child, and for a hereditary gene defect in a core chemical reaction of the human metabolism this is just staggering.
For example as someone who has the MTHFR gene defect, my organism needs the "bio-available", methylated version of Vitamin B12, because it can only use 30% of the Vitamin B12 in my bloodstream.
The effects of Vitamin B12 (methylcobalamine) supplementation after many decades of Vitamin B12 deficiency is staggering. Within 30 minutes it felt like someone lifted a very heavy baseball cap off my skull. If someone would've told me methylcobalamin is a potent anti-depressant or some illegal drug I would've believed them based on the effects.
If you scout google scholar or NCBI for recent studies on Vitamin B12 you will find recent case studies that use Vitamin B12 supplementation to treat infertility, long covid symtpoms, and autism in children. And if nature gifts you with the MTHFR gene defect(s), Vitamin B12 can be really rare in your cells.
Yet here we are, even in one of the wealthiest countries in the world you need to do gene sequencing on your own if you want to learn about basic genetic defects, because doctors won't touch anything involving "genes" if the disease is not named after yourself. According to Wikipedia roughly 20-30% of all people have this exact MTHFR defect.
PS: ADHD is often linked to depression, and I've been discussing with a good friend what comes first. If you have chronic disease, there is first the disease, then comes the depression. But then doctors or others see you and only focus on the depression which - funnily - increases the depression / anxiety even more.
I wish I knew at a younger age that methylated Vitamin B12 / folate supplementation is needed due to a genetic defect.
novok · 3h ago
They even ban things like ancestry DNA tests??
bflesch · 2h ago
AFAIK in some places your child needs to be 18 in order to knowingly consent to getting a genome sequencing. But of course you can assign a religion to your child before that if you want ;)
Some people with OCD literally starve to death, because they can't leave their house. Commonly you find those affected washing their hands repeatedly until they bleed... and then some more. It is absolute not a "what makes you feel good" kinda thing, it's a dysfunctional and irrational mental world model enforced by a crippling sense of doom, anxiety and shame, which will consume life (especially if "very OCD").
Most importantly, for those with actual OCD, you absolutely aren't advised to embrace that destructive, irrational world model by leaning in on compulsions. You cannot really exploit it for good, by definition. And by definition, it isn't benign.
I wish people would stop attributing a quirky/controlling personality, a desire for order, symmetry and tidy rooms to a serious mental disorder. You wouldn't twist major depression, schizophrenia, or cluster B disorders like that. If you feel left out on the identity game, go read Lord of the Rings, or Das Kapital, try horse riding, or golf.
Quite honestly, for me this casts serious shade on the whole article. Because "ADHD" is similarly misattributed and casually "self-diagnosed". Maybe the author just got very ADHD by browsing too much Insta and later found stimulants to be stimulating. Much easier to cure that kind of ADHD through abstinence and structure. (Although coming up with elaborate routines and revolutionary hacks, which are a total breakthrough for a whole month, is a very ADHD thing...)
allworms · 5h ago
> I wish people would stop attributing a quirky/controlling personality
> for me this casts serious shade on the whole article
I think that's healthy wariness. The article seems overall well thought out, but OCD is an extremely common blindspot today, so I don't think it spoils the rest of the advice (which is largely good and spot-on).
Even my primary care doctor, when I told him I'd been diagnosed with OCD causing many disparate kinds of anxiety and depression, said something about "well you want your accountant to have a little OCD for example." I was a little stunned!
jijijijij · 4h ago
I agree, there is some good advice in there. However, this makes the OCD remark stand out even more for me. Bit like a doctor recommending homeopathy or starts talking about flat earth stuff. Getting such a basic thing so wrong, taints everything else.
See, "the good advice" is knowledge I can recognize as such, therefore information I already have. You need a basis of trust accepting any new information. A flat-earther may get Newtonian physics right, but I won't go there to learn about it.
I don't think the OCD section adds much anyway, so I think the article would be greatly improved by removing it.
margor · 5h ago
Do you really believe there is only one kind of OCD, specifically one you described?
I'm sorry to tell you, but both ADHD and OCD exist on a spectrum. Furthermore, ADHD like symptoms can be caused through other illness than actual dopamine deficiency.
"Some people", "commonly" already implies a variety in symptoms and manifestations. But by definition, they all cause clinically significant impairment, or distress.
allworms · 5h ago
There are many kinds of OCD! There are zero kinds of OCD that aren't a disorder. A helpful mnemonic is: you could imagine OCD stands for "obsessive compulsive disorder".
kamranjon · 2h ago
Has anyone used the Todoist app? What are the apps that you find the most helpful in supporting ADHD - I am thinking to get this app, but also have never used Obsidian before, would love to hear what others are using.
Edit: Oh also want to mention that I generally prefer privacy oriented apps - so if there is something, even paid, that will keep my notes on device without sharing them with a server I'd love to hear about it.
throwpoaster · 13m ago
Lost me at “salt water”.
chopete3 · 5h ago
If it helps anybody experiencing ADHD type symptoms.
>> The symptoms of ADHD and thyroid disorder are similar.
Ask your doctor to check that first before ADHD.
dns_snek · 5h ago
Definitely make sure to check since it's easy to test and easy to treat, but remember that it could be both. What blows is that some doctors can become really dismissive of the idea that you might have something like ADHD if your chart already carries a different label (thyroid, personality disorders, depression, etc.) so watch out for that, it can be a challenge to get them to take it seriously.
notrealyme123 · 4h ago
The cognitive bias of humans to "explain away" is one of my great pet peeves.
BenjiWiebe · 4h ago
My thyroid was checked multiple times and always was fine. Now (recently) I got diagnosed with ADHD.
xianwen · 2h ago
I read at one place regarding an ADHD drug that is non-stimulant and makes people a little drowsy, which is why it is good to take before going to bed. I don't remember what the drug is called. Does someone know?
danielfalbo · 5h ago
I feel like this is amazingly useful and not only to people with ADHD! Or maybe I suffer from undiagnosed ADHD
DrewADesign · 4h ago
Take one of the more reputable questionnaires... they never require a login or anything. If you score high enough, see if you can get proper neuropsychiatric testing done. Really think about the questions and be honest with yourself… is easy to gloss over problems we have that we learned to compensate for, or be too eager to answer yes to everything if we’re just looking for an explanation for having a hard time at work, for example.
Some primary care doctors will refer you to get proper testing, but many will either ask you a subset of the questions you took on the questionnaire and say “yeah you have it,” or ask you nothing further and say “no you don’t have it,” depending entirely on their personal feelings on the matter. Testing isn’t cheap if your insurance doesn’t cover it but if you work in a knowledge field, being informed is an investment.
Medication, if it makes sense for treatment goes beyond controlling attention to tasks at a higher level — like not getting squirrel brain distracted trying to code. It also has much lower-level cognitive effects that I can’t directly perceive, but are completely obvious looking at my raw capability. A modest dosage of methylphenidate makes complex math problems that previously made me drop classes after putting in 20 hours per week of hyper-focused study time effortless. I don’t ‘feel’ smarter on it, or dumber off it— I can’t even perceive the specific threads of thought getting derailed in my normal state that make some cognitive tasks so difficult. The proof is entirely in my ability to do things that were incredibly difficult before.
Barring any of this, regular physical activity and good sleep have huge benefits. For some, it increases the dopamine enough to make medication totally unnecessary. I see dramatically worse results if I get super busy and drop sleep and gym visits staying up late working.
But seriously, getting medicated absolutely changed my
life.
albert_e · 5h ago
question about the first line of advice
anyone from India willing to share some pointers on how to get an evaluation
signed - someone who has been procrastinating on it for a few years now
bentt · 4h ago
My doctor in the states was willing to do what she called a "clinical diagnosis". After filling out a short questionnaire, my score indicated I may have ADHD. She prescribed a medication for me to try. The idea was if the medication helps, and doesn't make me feel bad, then it would indicate I have ADHD.
It helped. I do. That was it!
zahlman · 6h ago
> Here’s an example: you (having undiagnosed ADHD) try to set a schedule, or use a todo list, or clean your bed every day, but it doesn’t stick. So you get on medication, and the medication lets you form your first habit: which is using a todo list app consistently, checking it every morning.
How exactly is this supposed to work?
(Even assuming a health care system that actually cares about ADHD in adults, "just get a diagnosis" seems like a much higher bar than "just clean your bed every day".)
CharlesW · 6h ago
> How exactly is this supposed to work?
It's not exactly "executive function in a pill", but in people with ADHD, stimulants help with task initiation and sustained attention. That's often enough to help people create a structure for creating and maintaining habits that work for them.
zahlman · 5h ago
That's not what I was asking. Please note both parts I italicized in my quotation, and how they interact.
CharlesW · 5h ago
Ah, now I understand what you meant. The OP assumed the "get diagnosed" part would be understood. I've made it explicit below:
> Here’s an example: you (having undiagnosed ADHD) try to set a schedule, or use a todo list, or clean your bed every day, but it doesn’t stick. So you [get diagnosed and then] get on medication, and the medication lets you form your first habit: which is using a todo list app consistently, checking it every morning.
zahlman · 4h ago
No, you do not understand. Please read the parenthetical in my first post, in which I preemptively made it explicit.
chiph · 4h ago
Getting diagnosed is the first step. It can be a steeper step for some than others. But once you have a medication that works for you (which sometimes takes a few attempts) then you'll find that task avoidance becomes less frequent. Having a to-do list will help you ensure that the "must-do" tasks get completed. I rely on my phone's calendar, task list, and a journaling app named Daylio that I use to track how effective I was in completing tasks that day (you pick an emoji)
I was fortunate to find a physician that specializes in ADHD. Most of his patients are children/teens but they also see adults like myself. You can also go the route of seeing a psychologist that specializes in ADHD.
BenjiWiebe · 4h ago
It was much easier for me to get a diagnosis than to make my bed every day. I talked to my PCP, she recommended I talk to a therapist that was qualified to diagnose ADHD (among other things). Went there a couple times and took some tests and got a diagnosis. It took only a handful of appointments. Making your bed every day goes on forever.
StefanBatory · 6h ago
In Poland, you are basically unable to get diagnosed if you are an adult. You will be treated like drug-seeker.
You did okay at school? Clearly it's not ADHD. And so on. Heard similar stories from my friends and colleagues.
Americans have that one easier, ngl.
kstrauser · 6h ago
That's unfortunate. It's not exactly easy in the US, either. When I wanted to get treatment, I asked my family doc, who referred me to a psychiatrist. The psych diagnosed me with anxiety and depression. We tried treating that; it failed. Turns out ADHD causes a lot of anxiety. The anxiety was a symptom, not the cause. I found another doc who specializes in ADHD who finally started treating it, and the change was immediate.
margor · 5h ago
Not true,
Source: diagnosed in Poland, see my other comment. Feel free to contact if need help.
StefanBatory · 5h ago
What's your general region you live in if I may ask?
And yeah, I've read it. I'm happy it got better for you. (not saying that sarcastically, I just have trouble with tone over text) How hard was the process for you to get it diagnosed?
margor · 5h ago
The default city, but the process was that I paid out of pocket for psychological diagnosis and then used that to talk with psychiatrist. It seems to be the "easiest" route to be taken seriously, rather than drug-seeker.
And other comments - you NEED to look for people who specialize in ADHD specifically, both on psychologist and psychiatrist side. I got SNRI only because the doc said "it's used as last resort for ADHD, perhaps it will help you" - no, it does shit nothing for ADHD in my case. But it did help with many other things so I'm still grateful for that.
Also, keep in mind that non-stimulants also do work, but they don't work _immediately_ and that requires actual regime to make know whether they work on you.
StefanBatory · 5h ago
Gotcha, thanks. (tbh I don't know anyone on NFZ anyway, if I wanted to meet a psychologist, I'd wait close to 300 days and I'm in one of major cities.)
phoronixrly · 6h ago
You need to look for a psychiatrist that specialises in attention disorders. You also need to work with them on a therapy -- you don't go to them and ask them to give you amphetamines, but instead go talk to them about the issues you have in your day to day life.
Speaking as a fellow European that until recently had the same views as you.
StefanBatory · 5h ago
With therapy I of course agree - I do think that people are overmedicated. It should be the last resort.
But even on that, it's unlikely that someone will concur it might be that. General vibe I got was that, as I said - it's something you grow out.
And sometimes I find myself doubting, maybe they're right and it's something wrong with us? Many times I have wondered if it is just my subconscious way of trying to avoid responsibility for myself.
phoronixrly · 5h ago
> And sometimes I find myself doubting, maybe they're right and it's something wrong with us?
Yes. The thing wrong with us is that our life style is not a good fit but we persist to it despite knowing that. But why? Well we are more or less forced into it because society currently values dicking around with the JS library of the day much higher than herding a flock of sheep.
dmazin · 6h ago
In the States, frankly, if you are a clearly responsible adult, it is incredibly easy to get diagnosed: just describe your symptoms like missing deadlines etc. The psychiatrist said “yeah, sounds like adult ADHD. If the medication works, clearly you have it”.
There are tests they can run on you but no one has ever required me to do them, and I’ve been rediagnosed 4x when switching psychiatrists due to moving/switching insurance.
Note: last time I did this was 2020 or so, so maybe outdated. First time was 2014ish.
sippeangelo · 5h ago
Meanwhile in Sweden:
Public healthcare queues for ADHD diagnosis range from 1 to 2 years. At the end of the process, many end up with a "You clearly have ADHD, but there are others that have way more issues than you, so therefore we can not provide you with a diagnosis nor medication". They prioritize diagnosing people who struggle enough with their economy or have children that they are unable to take care of.
I went the the private route, paying out of pocket to hopefully sidetrack the long queues. Sweden is very strict on diagnosis criteria and subscribes to the WHO standard. My result is "You very clearly have symptoms of ADHD, but you fail on the 'must have been present before 12 years of age' criteria". This is a ridiculous criteria when diagnosing ADHD in adults, with either parents who have passed on, or are in a mindset of "No, you were just lazy".
My only option is "beat it through willpower alone", which is hilarious when you have a massive dopamine deficiency with an executive function disorder.
Either that, or get medication off the black market, which is likely just sourced from some poor student who has to sell theirs off to make ends meet, due to Sweden's insane stance on drugs.
kingen · 5h ago
I also live in Sweden, and I also went the private route. Think it took me 6-8 weeks from initial contact to get the prescription.
Aerbil313 · 1h ago
I’m lucky enough to never had too much difficulty with access to meds. In your situation, considering the hugely positive impact they have in my life, I’d consider it worth it to try another country’s healthcare system until I get them.
cyberax · 6h ago
ADHD diagnosis is extremely easy to get. There are websites that will link you with a doctor that will "diagnose" you remotely by giving you a questionnaire with extremely leading questions. Even with more reputable doctors it's easy: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo...
If you really want ADHD medication, you can get it today. The doctor will probably still start with atomoxetine (it's not a stimulant) at first, but then they'll transition you to stimulants after a couple of months if you ask for it.
Edit:
> How exactly is this supposed to work?
People with ADHD often have an irrational aversion to doing some tasks (e.g. paperwork or laundry) and have to actively trick themselves into doing them. TODO lists, automated voice reminders, and daily routines are some ways to do it.
Once a task is started, it's easier to keep rolling. Stimulants help to reduce this initial barrier, and they help with staying focused. They do NOT make you high in therapeutic doses.
zahlman · 5h ago
> ADHD diagnosis is extremely easy to get.
I am in Canada. My family doctor apparently cannot do this, and has advised that a private specialist would be quite expensive (not that I'd know where to start looking anyway). I can't fathom that an online questionnaire would lead to legal access here to stimulant medications, considering that even things like SudaFed are controlled. And anyway if I am going to feel safe with a medication I don't want it prescribed on the basis of self-reporting on "extremely leading questions".
> will probably still start with atomoxetine (it's not a stimulant)
First I've heard of this one.
> How exactly is this supposed to work?
By "this" I indeed meant dealing with the "not diagnosed" hurdle.
cyberax · 5h ago
I don't know how it works in Canada. In the US, it's not hard. For example, you can use https://www.donefirst.com/ to get started.
And once you get the initial prescription from a provider, it's much easier to keep renewing it going forward.
> I can't fathom that an online questionnaire would lead to legal access here to stimulant medications, considering that even things like SudaFed are controlled.
Nobody ever accused the US drug enforcement policy of being consistent and sane.
Bloating · 3h ago
adult diag ADD (prob some ASD also). Kids were diagnosed, had one of those ahah moments. At least in my generation, the quite, bored as hell kid in the back of the room. Thankfully, I think the ASD made me determined, hardheaded, and perceptive, and my parents encouraged and supported me to set good goals. That served me well, but I look back and wonder what could have been if I could have stayed awake in high school classes.
My longest friend is hyper, smartest dude in the room but could not stay out of trouble. Right now, he is literally climbing up a mountain. Even today, I get so pissed at my adult peers who don't understand that that distracted kid is just wired different, not undisciplined. You can't change your neurology anymore than you can change your eye color.
Stims helped much more that antidepressants, but I burn thru catecholamine quickly. Vyvanse lasts maybe a few hours, by example. I've had days where I could take a stim, then fall asleep waiting for it to kick in. Its burn-out, and it sucks.
One thing that helped was NALT and Phenylalanine. Initially, 700mg of NALT was miraculous. Doesn't help so much any more, but I continue to take it. I suspect there are other things causing dopamine production bottlenecks and-or low storage of dopamine.
Gene test indicates I may not convert folate to methylfolate, which is important for the stress hormone cycle. You can supplement methylfolate but so far I've not seen improvement.
The ASD makes it very difficult for me to not call a spade a spade, especially around touchy-feely people. My ASD daughter is now in college, like me, struggling greatly with social. She's as liberal as it gets in a free society, but when the college offered group therapy she refused for the same reasons I hated all that groupology crap; you can't really speak your mind without getting ostracized.
Aerbil313 · 2h ago
On the chemical note, I found glycine supplementation to be actually helpful in avoiding hyperfixation (not being able to stop on a task). In contrast, stimulant meds solve the issue of not being able to start on a task (not enough motivation/dopamine). Make your own N=1 experiments though.
Aerbil313 · 2h ago
Preach, this is a great post. The author has approximated the same system I (and many others) independently found to be working well for themselves. The bad news is that it’s very hard, if not impossible, to teach masses with ADHD all these elaborate, often very personal systems. The good news is you can make an app which will automatically make it work for individual people. Which is what I’m working on right now (not out yet).
isamuel · 3h ago
For reasons of personal history, stimulant medications like Adderall are a hard no for me. I am curious, though, about non-stimulant options like atomoxetine, if anyone has views.
pyuser583 · 5h ago
Having a ton of apps is not the solution to managing ADHD.
k__ · 5h ago
"One app is better than two: the more disjoint things you have to pay attention to, the worse it is."
Bloating · 4h ago
Wait... Silicon Valley is the cure fir all that ails!
nikkwong · 3h ago
Stimulants are still first line therapy for treating ADHD but I think mindfulness meditation is wholly underrated. People with ADHD have too much activity and overly-robust neural nets in the default-mode network in comparison to healthy controls. There is a network above this network, the salience network [0] that is responsible for the switching between the default-mode and executive control networks.
ADHD may present with many brain-network anomalies, but I believe the classic case is one where there is more default-mode activity, less executive control activity, and ineffective switching occurring from the salience network. Mindfulness meditation is honed at training the salience and attention networks towards playing closer attention, which offsets the deficits observed in ADHD.
That's my lay interpretation; but actually, I believe that people who suffer from ADHD probably have even more to gain, relatively, than those who don't from taking up the habit of mindfulness meditation. It's not an easy fix--I've read that it takes about twice as long for those with ADHD to benefit from the practice. But it seems like it's worth it; after all, your mind is really the only tool that you have.
Those interested in this topic should read about ADHD and it's relation to the salience and executive networks; and how mindfulness sharpens the function in these areas.
I also think ADHD is a combo of many different, more specific problems that we blob into ADHD since we are not precise enough to diagnose it beyond the 3 types we have now, and these sets of problems are responsive to stimulants.
For some people with ADHD, this will work very well, others will not. Some with ADHD are already naturals at mindfulness because they have really bad time blindness. They are always, a bit too in the moment and low anxiety.
zozbot234 · 3h ago
> ...naturals at mindfulness because they have really bad time blindness...
FWIW, this is not what "mindfulness" means. Mindfulness is a combination of concentration (i.e. intentionally focused attention) and insight (i.e. a deep intuitive knowledge and familiarity with the three characteristics, viz. anicca, dukkha, anatta). People who have reached the deepest stage of enlightenment (known as arahants) are believed to be able to switch their default mode network on or off pretty much arbitrarily (there is interest in verifying this claim experimentally, and it doesn't seem to have been outright refuted so far); they seem to have reached a deeply ingrained understanding of what it does and doesn't do for them, and the control ultimately flows from that.
novok · 1h ago
Read closer, "naturals" means they have talent at the skill, unlike the contrasted people who have a harder time about it in parent comments. If you are a natural, it doesn't mean you go pursue that skill either. You also get hyperfocus with ADHD.
schneems · 3h ago
I’m not clear. Are you someone who has ADHD or is this recommendation based on experiences with someone with ADHD?
I have ADHD and meditation, for me, is very difficult. Painful even.
zozbot234 · 3h ago
Meditation practitioners have been writing for thousands of years about the problem of "quieting the monkey mind" which reads just like your typical description of ADHD, only in the specific setting of a meditation retreat (which is typically an intentionally challenging, spartan, uncomfortable environment - hence one where pretty much everyone is enticed to get fidgety and hyper). It's difficult for everyone at first!
schneems · 2h ago
Next time Please state that upfront: you don’t know anyone with ADHD that this has been effective for and you dont have ADHD yourself.
“Have you tried” comments from people without firsthand experience is basically asking others to be your guinea pig. I didn’t say “hard” I said “pain” as in a physical reaction. If you don’t have the same pathology I don’t think you can truly empathize or understand what you’re asking me to do (even if you think you do).
I’m glad you found meditation and that it’s helpful for you. I’m asking that you modify your evangelism in the future to give people maximum context on where your suggestions are coming from (and associated limitations).
> The first-line treatment for ADHD is stimulants. Everything else in this post works best as a complement to, rather than as an alternative to, stimulant medication. In fact most of the strategies described here, I was only able to execute after starting stimulants. For me, chemistry is the critical node in the tech tree: the todo list, the pomodoro timers, etc., all of that was unlocked by the medication.
This means: You do have to see a physician and psychologist to get diagnosed and to get a therapy plan. Just reading articles or books about managing ADHD won't do the trick.
It was the equivalent of running a marathon carrying an 80 pound backback. Yeah, with enough work you can do it, but you're not going to be setting any records.
Stimulant meds have been lifechanging for me. I'm not magically doing more than I was before. Those coping mechanisms took me pretty far. It's that I'm doing it all without delaying them until they became emergencies, which is what it use to take before I could even get started. My life is so much easier and less stressful now.
I took that backpack off and how I can run the same race as everyone else. And you know what? When you've been practicing your whole life with an extra weight on your back, and you take it off, sometimes it's surprising how fast you can go.
In before "of course it's easy, you're on meth!" Yeah, that sounds reasonable if you know nothing about ADHD. I've talked about this here before, but Aderrall has no noticeable stimulant effect for me at all. I feel a good cup of coffee much more than my daily meds, which is to say, not a lot. It doesn't give me extra energy or alertness or anything else. It just tells my brain, hey, did you know you're allowed to get started on things before they become emergencies?
Now that I’m medicated (methylphenidate), I still lean on those systems but they serve me very very well. I remember details much better than I did, but don’t always remember them long-term. The note taking system and habit that I developed years ago is now… supercharged because I am so much better about keeping good notes.
On the coffee/meds thing, I agree. I don’t get a buzz from the medication the way I do from coffee, but before my diagnosis I was drinking a ridiculous amount of coffee every day just to stay focused, with the associated buzz and jitters. I still have a cup or two of coffee in the morning, but drinking anywhere near as much as I used to is pretty much unbearable.
It's hard to reconcile with how difficult it was previously. Life on hard mode is a term ived used too. I try to think that it was all to make me stronger for the second half of my life, but I still regularly wonder what could have been.
One time I realized I hadn't gone to my intro chemistry class yet that semester and had a test that day. I went, bluffed my way through based on what I remembered from high school chemistry, figured out mid-test how to calculate rate-limiting reactions, and aced it. My then-girlfriend, now-wife was so incredibly annoyed with me about every bit of that. "What do you mean, you hadn't gone to class, ever? And that you still aced the test?!"
And I also failed a comparatively easy general ed class because I just couldn't convince my brain to care, even though I know I needed it and certainly didn't want to take it a second time.
Had a midterm for a class I did actually like that went sort of how you described. I prepared for it a bit and was sitting around with some friends killing time before the 2pm exam. It’s about 1:40pm, I figure it’s time to head over. Go to the course website to find which room the exam is in and discover that the exam started at 1pm. Run over there, get there at 1:50pm, and finish the exam before the 2:30pm end time. Hand it in, the professor knew I’d been really late and had a weird look on his face as I give it to him. He looks it over, smiles, and says “I was going to offer some extra time for you because of the mix-up but… looking at your answers here… I don’t think you need it! See you on Thursday!”
ADHD cheers, friend. I'm proud of us for making it this far.
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I tried the major ones (Adderall, Ritalin, Vyvanse, Concerta, etc.). They all made dealing with ADHD significantly easier, but even at the lowest doses they turned me into an extremely anxious and irritable person. I had never experienced anything close to a panic attack or nervous breakdown in my 30+ years of being alive until I started taking stimulant medication.
I decided that living with untreated ADHD was the better alternative, so now I'm back to copious amounts of coffee to deal.
After that it normalized.
I started taking it 1h before I get out of bed every morning, so I could sleep well at night.
The cruel paradox of ADHD treatment. I only got meds in the first place because my husband was able to follow through with getting me the appointments. It's been life changing. I needed a ton of support before and now we've reached parity with chores and finances. I never could have gotten that first step without someone helping me though.
But if you do end up taking stimulant medication for ADHD, that's not allowed. So unfortunately sometimes (rather often with the FAA) it's better not to ask questions you don't want the answer to.
What is the difference between someone with ADHD who passed their pilot lessons but doesn't have a diagnosis and is not taking medication vs someone with ADHD who is getting help?
Why is this an aeromedical issue and not a certification issue? What is the training and testing for if not to confirm that someone has the skills to successfully fly a plane?
As a note, bupropion did make me feel a little funny. It wasn't bad, weird, or intolerable, but yes I did have a faint perceptual awareness that I was in a medicated state.
- made me feel pretty energetic. Not buzzed, but maybe counteracted low-grade depression. I was on it because I wanted to quit smoking, because I was hoping quitting smoking would make me feel better/happier
- slightly affected my vision/perception. Colours seemed more vibrant. Everything just felt perceptually… brighter.
- made me really horny, but not in a compulsive way. It wasn’t distracting and didn’t cause any problems, but I definitely had more drive. When it was go time, it was Go Time :)
:D
b) plan a trip to the Turkey, find a specialist there, get the prescription, do all the paperwork/preparations before going back
c) fill all the papers and get the approval at customs even if they didn't know about that before - prepare all the necessary links to official documents, as maybe you would have to explain them how to do their job
p.s. I know that feeling. Atomoxetine is full of side effects without direct effects.
Plus pretty bad for your health and crazy addictive. Absolutely not a good recommendation.
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https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/science/column-recent-resea...
It might be possible to manage the addiction and maybe keep it from escalating with discipline, but the addiction will always be there.
Humans are excellent at denying addiction and rationalizing addictive behavior. And you don't even realize you are doing it - I've seen it in myself with cigarettes, which I fortunately quit years ago.
When I was in the hospital and couldn’t get out of bed, the nurses provided me with some. They seemed to be partially working, but I was still having pretty intense cravings all the time. After doing a bit of napkin math I realized that the patches were only providing about 1/3 of the daily nicotine I’d been consuming before my appendectomy.
When I tried to quit on my own, I started out with the recommended dosage from the package and had the same experience. They modulated the cravings a bit but were nowhere near effective enough to actually allow me to go through the day without chronic acute cravings. I bumped up my daily dose from the patches and did successfully stop smoking, but trying to reduce the dose too much led to the same brutal cravings. I ended up abandoning patches as a way to quit because of the daily hassle of trying to slowly wean myself off of the patches; a full patch decrement was too much at once, so I was cutting them into halves and quarters to try to make progress without ruining my concentration and focus.
I suspect that this just isn't in the cards given that kind of situation. You're ultimately just better off suffering through that withdrawal (especially since you've said you were in a frickin' hospital to begin with. It's not like you're losing that much effectiveness and productivity) and trying to find a new normal after the worst symptoms are over. It might take some time but our best guess is that kind of habituation is not permanent, so you should see quite a bit of improvement over time if you just stick to it.
> so you should see quite a bit of improvement over time if you just stick to it.
:D
I used the patch to quit, and I used to enjoy slapping those patches on in the morning almost as much as I enjoyed a morning cigarette.
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This led to what was probably the worst headache of my life. I don’t know enough pharmacology to understand how exactly that worked, but it was terrible. Having a cup of coffee reversed the effect pretty quickly, luckily.
Outside of medication there's therapy, cognitive training, coaching, etc.
Additionally, the boost in dopamines rewards anything you happen to be doing, so it can lock you into your avoidant behavior that day once you start doing it.
(I should add that IME "body doubling"/"task shadowing" is somewhat effective, though not very consistently. It's also probably the hardest intervention to get, though maybe things like Focusmate https://www.focusmate.com/ might help with that nowadays.)
Since Concerta is extended-release, this usually means that I have to start work early most days. If I take the medication too late in the day it’ll disturb my ability to get to sleep, and since the medication has mostly worn off by that time it’ll generally mean… browsing Reddit in bed until way later than I should be up.
Some of us have to deal with the decision of a loved one taking meds and increasing their probability of a sudden cardiac death ( by qt Interval prolongation ) or staying unmediated.
Strategies to deal with ADS without meds are valuable I situations like this.
Why is this such a concern to you? At some point, everything has _some_ risk, and this feels like you're putting a lot of guilt on someone else for making a medical decision they deserve to make on their own.
Pharmacology is not my main area of expertise but I used to do a lot of work in cardiology, and anything that increases the QT interval in the ecg increases the risk of Torsades de Pointes.
Rule of thumb is 5–7% more TdP risk per 10 ms QTc.
Quite a few adhs meds do this moderately, not enough to make an ecg mandratory.
I still believe that making medications the default for adhs is not warranted given the side effects, especially since in many cases it’s not clear if it treats the condition or just makes the lives of education professionals easier.
I, and millions other people, could tell you that it does immensely benefit with issues like executive dysfunction. Medication quite literally made the problem I had been battling for decades disappear instantly.
Associating adhd just with childhood is in itself an obsolete view that causes issues for people.
I had various neurological issues for the past 10 years, some of them common like visual migraine auras, GAD, panic attacks, and some of the less known and frankly hard to describe - visual snow, poor night vision, problems with adapting to light/dark places, constant fatigue, over stimulation (pins and needles over the whole body when overheating, as an example). On top of that, ADHD and I was really afraid of any and all kinds of medication, especially mind altering ones.
At one moment, I was in a really bad shape and place mentally and I decided to get professional help and start medicating, as I felt nothing else can help me anymore. And believe me, I did try all kinds of therapies, exercising (how do you do it with constant fatigue?), mindfulness and meditation (closing eyes when stressed was horrible experience for me!), nothing helped.
Look, you can tell me it's placebo or whatever, but I started on SNRIs and later on stimulants for ADHD. It took me _2 weeks_, to cure 80% of my neurological issues. It was almost like someone flipped a light switch in my nervous system. I still can't fully believe it or even try to understand, but my theory is that I've been genetically destined to have these problems, and "just trying hard enough" was not enough and would've never been enough.
SNRIs cured my neurological issues, and stimulants like Ritalin gave me willpower to start making positive changes and for the first time - start making habits. I believe, at least in my case, it would've been impossible without medication, or it would take me half my life to get to a place where I would've felt comfortable with myself and my problems. I believe my life is too short to fight with all of these issues alone, and I'm really glad I did start that.
tl;dr: medication gave me my life back, not just from ADHD but from variety of other issues, that ADHD just exacerbated. Please do try medication, it's not a one way door and we humans don't have infinite willpower to deal with all the issues on their own.
A big realization I had was that doctors don't necessarily start by prescribing the medication that's most likely to help, they prescribe the one that's got the highest expected benefit to negative side effect ratio.
If you had diabetes, you wouldn't feel hesitant to take insulin. It's not a moral failure. It doesn't mean you're weak or bad or a disappointment. It just means you have a medical issue that can be treated. Well, same here.
The good news is that after you’ve been diagnosed, getting near the bottom of the bottle of pills is a great reminder to call the pharmacy for a refill. Plus… shortly after noticing that you’re almost out happens to coincide with the medication taking effect, so you’ll be in the perfect place to make that call!
If you finish a task that wasn't on your TODO list, don't fret. Just add it but don't check it off. Then when you come back to the list later, you check it off. This reminds you that you did it and gives you the gratification of completing it. Otherwise, the finished task will slide into oblivion and poke at your self-worth along the way.
However. The article encourages a diagnostic approach—it asks the reader to introspect and identify the root cause of their inaction. But by omitting both PDA and RSD from its list of potential causes, it creates a "diagnostic trap" that can lead to misdiagnosis and self-blame. The omission is particularly damaging because PDA and RSD are two of the most powerful (and often invisible) drivers of severe, persistent avoidance.
But I agree it's good to spread awareness of these kinds of things.
https://gekk.info/articles/adhd.html
https://miniver.blogspot.com/2021/08/the-subjective-experien...
In my own case, I was diagnosed with ADHD. Autism didn’t enter the discussion even a little bit. I’m medicated with stimulants and it works well for me for executive dysfunction part of my overall symptoms. It’s only very recently, while helping someone close to me go through a combo diagnosis, that I’m realizing that there are probably some other traits I have that would be better addressed with Autism counselling.
Now the hard part is getting myself to fill out the paperwork required to get the NHS to pay someone to look at it.
They didn't even suggest that I could/should speak to my GP first. And I can't actually get an appointment with my GP other than the way I specifically tried to. At least not my local GP.
If you're able to, I'd go for the private option. Really, the medication helps tremendously and having access to it makes every other step easier to take - I really wouldn't have thought that's how it would make me feel.
Good luck going forward!
Oh wow this spoke to me - do it a lot …
Does this also work in the opposite direction?
A visual indicator for task age works wonders for me. I use parentheses to show the age of a task. As the parentheses accumulate it's very obvious what I'm behind on. e.g. ")))))))))) respond to important email".
Works especially well for recurring tasks: the parentheses disappear when the task is marked complete.
I try to keep my lists as small and up-to-date as possible and this serves as a staleness indicator as well.
I use Todoist and have a script to manage the parentheses. https://github.com/leroux/todoscript
Credit to intend.do. I shamelessly stole the concept from NotDone Propagator. https://intend.do/features#notdones
I've tried several to-do apps, but centralized systems didn't work for me. I now use multiple to-do lists across different media: some on paper, some on my phone, others in markdown files within project folders... sending email to myself. It may seem messy, but it works for me. One system doesn't fit everyone. And any customization and tweaks are encouraged.
Books that helped me:
Atomic Habits by James Clear emphasizes small, consistent changes. Over time, they build into significant improvement. It’s better to improve your system gradually than attempt a major overhaul.
The Now Habit by Neil Fiore offers tools to overcome procrastination and start tasks. It helped me understand my resistance and find ways to move forward.
Getting Things Done by David Allen focuses on reviews and planning. I struggle to make time for them regularly, but even occasional reviews help.
Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, especially annotated versions, provide a Stoic perspective. His reflections on virtue and responsibility inspire me. He seemed to dislike being emperor, preferring philosophy, but accepted his role out of duty. That example helps me do necessary tasks, even when I don't feel like it.
HOWEVER, there are also birth defects such as the MTHFR gene mutation which reduce Vitamin B12 utilization of your cells by as much as 70%. It has far-reaching consequences for every single cell in your body. Modern medicine is mainly symptom-based and things like chronic Vitamin B12 deficiency are hard to diagnose (unlike famous low Vitamin D levels). In many countries you can't even sequence DNA of your own child, and for a hereditary gene defect in a core chemical reaction of the human metabolism this is just staggering.
For example as someone who has the MTHFR gene defect, my organism needs the "bio-available", methylated version of Vitamin B12, because it can only use 30% of the Vitamin B12 in my bloodstream.
The effects of Vitamin B12 (methylcobalamine) supplementation after many decades of Vitamin B12 deficiency is staggering. Within 30 minutes it felt like someone lifted a very heavy baseball cap off my skull. If someone would've told me methylcobalamin is a potent anti-depressant or some illegal drug I would've believed them based on the effects.
If you scout google scholar or NCBI for recent studies on Vitamin B12 you will find recent case studies that use Vitamin B12 supplementation to treat infertility, long covid symtpoms, and autism in children. And if nature gifts you with the MTHFR gene defect(s), Vitamin B12 can be really rare in your cells.
Yet here we are, even in one of the wealthiest countries in the world you need to do gene sequencing on your own if you want to learn about basic genetic defects, because doctors won't touch anything involving "genes" if the disease is not named after yourself. According to Wikipedia roughly 20-30% of all people have this exact MTHFR defect.
Here is some more info: https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/gs192
PS: ADHD is often linked to depression, and I've been discussing with a good friend what comes first. If you have chronic disease, there is first the disease, then comes the depression. But then doctors or others see you and only focus on the depression which - funnily - increases the depression / anxiety even more.
I wish I knew at a younger age that methylated Vitamin B12 / folate supplementation is needed due to a genetic defect.
> If you are very OCD
Please educate yourself, OCD is serious shit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_d...
Some people with OCD literally starve to death, because they can't leave their house. Commonly you find those affected washing their hands repeatedly until they bleed... and then some more. It is absolute not a "what makes you feel good" kinda thing, it's a dysfunctional and irrational mental world model enforced by a crippling sense of doom, anxiety and shame, which will consume life (especially if "very OCD").
Most importantly, for those with actual OCD, you absolutely aren't advised to embrace that destructive, irrational world model by leaning in on compulsions. You cannot really exploit it for good, by definition. And by definition, it isn't benign.
I wish people would stop attributing a quirky/controlling personality, a desire for order, symmetry and tidy rooms to a serious mental disorder. You wouldn't twist major depression, schizophrenia, or cluster B disorders like that. If you feel left out on the identity game, go read Lord of the Rings, or Das Kapital, try horse riding, or golf.
Quite honestly, for me this casts serious shade on the whole article. Because "ADHD" is similarly misattributed and casually "self-diagnosed". Maybe the author just got very ADHD by browsing too much Insta and later found stimulants to be stimulating. Much easier to cure that kind of ADHD through abstinence and structure. (Although coming up with elaborate routines and revolutionary hacks, which are a total breakthrough for a whole month, is a very ADHD thing...)
> for me this casts serious shade on the whole article
I think that's healthy wariness. The article seems overall well thought out, but OCD is an extremely common blindspot today, so I don't think it spoils the rest of the advice (which is largely good and spot-on).
Even my primary care doctor, when I told him I'd been diagnosed with OCD causing many disparate kinds of anxiety and depression, said something about "well you want your accountant to have a little OCD for example." I was a little stunned!
See, "the good advice" is knowledge I can recognize as such, therefore information I already have. You need a basis of trust accepting any new information. A flat-earther may get Newtonian physics right, but I won't go there to learn about it.
I don't think the OCD section adds much anyway, so I think the article would be greatly improved by removing it.
I'm sorry to tell you, but both ADHD and OCD exist on a spectrum. Furthermore, ADHD like symptoms can be caused through other illness than actual dopamine deficiency.
"Some people", "commonly" already implies a variety in symptoms and manifestations. But by definition, they all cause clinically significant impairment, or distress.
Edit: Oh also want to mention that I generally prefer privacy oriented apps - so if there is something, even paid, that will keep my notes on device without sharing them with a server I'd love to hear about it.
>> The symptoms of ADHD and thyroid disorder are similar.
Ask your doctor to check that first before ADHD.
Some primary care doctors will refer you to get proper testing, but many will either ask you a subset of the questions you took on the questionnaire and say “yeah you have it,” or ask you nothing further and say “no you don’t have it,” depending entirely on their personal feelings on the matter. Testing isn’t cheap if your insurance doesn’t cover it but if you work in a knowledge field, being informed is an investment.
Medication, if it makes sense for treatment goes beyond controlling attention to tasks at a higher level — like not getting squirrel brain distracted trying to code. It also has much lower-level cognitive effects that I can’t directly perceive, but are completely obvious looking at my raw capability. A modest dosage of methylphenidate makes complex math problems that previously made me drop classes after putting in 20 hours per week of hyper-focused study time effortless. I don’t ‘feel’ smarter on it, or dumber off it— I can’t even perceive the specific threads of thought getting derailed in my normal state that make some cognitive tasks so difficult. The proof is entirely in my ability to do things that were incredibly difficult before.
Barring any of this, regular physical activity and good sleep have huge benefits. For some, it increases the dopamine enough to make medication totally unnecessary. I see dramatically worse results if I get super busy and drop sleep and gym visits staying up late working.
But seriously, getting medicated absolutely changed my life.
anyone from India willing to share some pointers on how to get an evaluation
signed - someone who has been procrastinating on it for a few years now
It helped. I do. That was it!
How exactly is this supposed to work?
(Even assuming a health care system that actually cares about ADHD in adults, "just get a diagnosis" seems like a much higher bar than "just clean your bed every day".)
It's not exactly "executive function in a pill", but in people with ADHD, stimulants help with task initiation and sustained attention. That's often enough to help people create a structure for creating and maintaining habits that work for them.
> Here’s an example: you (having undiagnosed ADHD) try to set a schedule, or use a todo list, or clean your bed every day, but it doesn’t stick. So you [get diagnosed and then] get on medication, and the medication lets you form your first habit: which is using a todo list app consistently, checking it every morning.
I was fortunate to find a physician that specializes in ADHD. Most of his patients are children/teens but they also see adults like myself. You can also go the route of seeing a psychologist that specializes in ADHD.
You did okay at school? Clearly it's not ADHD. And so on. Heard similar stories from my friends and colleagues.
Americans have that one easier, ngl.
Source: diagnosed in Poland, see my other comment. Feel free to contact if need help.
And yeah, I've read it. I'm happy it got better for you. (not saying that sarcastically, I just have trouble with tone over text) How hard was the process for you to get it diagnosed?
And other comments - you NEED to look for people who specialize in ADHD specifically, both on psychologist and psychiatrist side. I got SNRI only because the doc said "it's used as last resort for ADHD, perhaps it will help you" - no, it does shit nothing for ADHD in my case. But it did help with many other things so I'm still grateful for that.
Also, keep in mind that non-stimulants also do work, but they don't work _immediately_ and that requires actual regime to make know whether they work on you.
Speaking as a fellow European that until recently had the same views as you.
But even on that, it's unlikely that someone will concur it might be that. General vibe I got was that, as I said - it's something you grow out.
And sometimes I find myself doubting, maybe they're right and it's something wrong with us? Many times I have wondered if it is just my subconscious way of trying to avoid responsibility for myself.
Yes. The thing wrong with us is that our life style is not a good fit but we persist to it despite knowing that. But why? Well we are more or less forced into it because society currently values dicking around with the JS library of the day much higher than herding a flock of sheep.
There are tests they can run on you but no one has ever required me to do them, and I’ve been rediagnosed 4x when switching psychiatrists due to moving/switching insurance.
Note: last time I did this was 2020 or so, so maybe outdated. First time was 2014ish.
Public healthcare queues for ADHD diagnosis range from 1 to 2 years. At the end of the process, many end up with a "You clearly have ADHD, but there are others that have way more issues than you, so therefore we can not provide you with a diagnosis nor medication". They prioritize diagnosing people who struggle enough with their economy or have children that they are unable to take care of.
I went the the private route, paying out of pocket to hopefully sidetrack the long queues. Sweden is very strict on diagnosis criteria and subscribes to the WHO standard. My result is "You very clearly have symptoms of ADHD, but you fail on the 'must have been present before 12 years of age' criteria". This is a ridiculous criteria when diagnosing ADHD in adults, with either parents who have passed on, or are in a mindset of "No, you were just lazy".
My only option is "beat it through willpower alone", which is hilarious when you have a massive dopamine deficiency with an executive function disorder.
Either that, or get medication off the black market, which is likely just sourced from some poor student who has to sell theirs off to make ends meet, due to Sweden's insane stance on drugs.
If you really want ADHD medication, you can get it today. The doctor will probably still start with atomoxetine (it's not a stimulant) at first, but then they'll transition you to stimulants after a couple of months if you ask for it.
Edit:
> How exactly is this supposed to work?
People with ADHD often have an irrational aversion to doing some tasks (e.g. paperwork or laundry) and have to actively trick themselves into doing them. TODO lists, automated voice reminders, and daily routines are some ways to do it.
Once a task is started, it's easier to keep rolling. Stimulants help to reduce this initial barrier, and they help with staying focused. They do NOT make you high in therapeutic doses.
I am in Canada. My family doctor apparently cannot do this, and has advised that a private specialist would be quite expensive (not that I'd know where to start looking anyway). I can't fathom that an online questionnaire would lead to legal access here to stimulant medications, considering that even things like SudaFed are controlled. And anyway if I am going to feel safe with a medication I don't want it prescribed on the basis of self-reporting on "extremely leading questions".
> will probably still start with atomoxetine (it's not a stimulant)
First I've heard of this one.
> How exactly is this supposed to work?
By "this" I indeed meant dealing with the "not diagnosed" hurdle.
And once you get the initial prescription from a provider, it's much easier to keep renewing it going forward.
> I can't fathom that an online questionnaire would lead to legal access here to stimulant medications, considering that even things like SudaFed are controlled.
Nobody ever accused the US drug enforcement policy of being consistent and sane.
My longest friend is hyper, smartest dude in the room but could not stay out of trouble. Right now, he is literally climbing up a mountain. Even today, I get so pissed at my adult peers who don't understand that that distracted kid is just wired different, not undisciplined. You can't change your neurology anymore than you can change your eye color.
Stims helped much more that antidepressants, but I burn thru catecholamine quickly. Vyvanse lasts maybe a few hours, by example. I've had days where I could take a stim, then fall asleep waiting for it to kick in. Its burn-out, and it sucks.
One thing that helped was NALT and Phenylalanine. Initially, 700mg of NALT was miraculous. Doesn't help so much any more, but I continue to take it. I suspect there are other things causing dopamine production bottlenecks and-or low storage of dopamine.
Gene test indicates I may not convert folate to methylfolate, which is important for the stress hormone cycle. You can supplement methylfolate but so far I've not seen improvement.
The ASD makes it very difficult for me to not call a spade a spade, especially around touchy-feely people. My ASD daughter is now in college, like me, struggling greatly with social. She's as liberal as it gets in a free society, but when the college offered group therapy she refused for the same reasons I hated all that groupology crap; you can't really speak your mind without getting ostracized.
ADHD may present with many brain-network anomalies, but I believe the classic case is one where there is more default-mode activity, less executive control activity, and ineffective switching occurring from the salience network. Mindfulness meditation is honed at training the salience and attention networks towards playing closer attention, which offsets the deficits observed in ADHD.
That's my lay interpretation; but actually, I believe that people who suffer from ADHD probably have even more to gain, relatively, than those who don't from taking up the habit of mindfulness meditation. It's not an easy fix--I've read that it takes about twice as long for those with ADHD to benefit from the practice. But it seems like it's worth it; after all, your mind is really the only tool that you have.
Those interested in this topic should read about ADHD and it's relation to the salience and executive networks; and how mindfulness sharpens the function in these areas.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salience_network
For some people with ADHD, this will work very well, others will not. Some with ADHD are already naturals at mindfulness because they have really bad time blindness. They are always, a bit too in the moment and low anxiety.
FWIW, this is not what "mindfulness" means. Mindfulness is a combination of concentration (i.e. intentionally focused attention) and insight (i.e. a deep intuitive knowledge and familiarity with the three characteristics, viz. anicca, dukkha, anatta). People who have reached the deepest stage of enlightenment (known as arahants) are believed to be able to switch their default mode network on or off pretty much arbitrarily (there is interest in verifying this claim experimentally, and it doesn't seem to have been outright refuted so far); they seem to have reached a deeply ingrained understanding of what it does and doesn't do for them, and the control ultimately flows from that.
I have ADHD and meditation, for me, is very difficult. Painful even.
“Have you tried” comments from people without firsthand experience is basically asking others to be your guinea pig. I didn’t say “hard” I said “pain” as in a physical reaction. If you don’t have the same pathology I don’t think you can truly empathize or understand what you’re asking me to do (even if you think you do).
I’m glad you found meditation and that it’s helpful for you. I’m asking that you modify your evangelism in the future to give people maximum context on where your suggestions are coming from (and associated limitations).