Personally I like to think of breathwork as another form of music, or rather that music and breathwork are all rhythmic stimulus with similar and complementary effects. Add dance to this as well. One of the big draws of EDM and trance and tribal music is the incessant rhythm of music and dance.
The altered states from uninhibited dance really seem to be underappreciated.
Along with rhythmic visuals and lights, and things like binaurals etc, the common trait is the rhythm.
brandall10 · 1h ago
FWIW, I used to use a light and sound machine (Mindplace Procyon) and was able to induce these states with minimal effort. And I had a couple dozen experiences w/ psilocybin in my college years, so I'm well versed in what they should be like.
The goggles w/ binaural beats create some weird sort of state where I don't feel any connection to my environment. After only a couple minutes my body turns to total mush and my brain comes alive with phosphene visuals. By about 15 minutes in, my stomach usually gurgles a bit, not unlike the indigestion that often accompanies psychedelic trips.
Interestingly enough, these machines are marketed as brainwave entrainment, but the literature on that says the visual component doesn't really have much impact. Yet auditory entrainment on its own doesn't seem to do much for me either, or at least, not convincing enough beyond placebo.
There is an app for the iPhone called Lumenate that uses the LED flash and it seems to work, though it's not as strong for me as the multi-LED goggles I used to use. Still, it's a great gateway for those who are curious.
waldothedog · 37m ago
I found Lumenate +headphones to be very helpful for a period of time to get me mentally ready to end the day and try going to sleep.
Finding a lay down on an accu-pressure mat very helpful these days (tho a bit steeper adoption curve tbqh)
gentooflux · 17m ago
Accu-pressure mat seems to (for me) induce the body temperature spike and dip that accompanies the start of the sleep cycle in the same way that taking a warm shower before bed is supposed to. I've also found that it adds to the intensity of deep breathing exercises.
The most surprising thing is that despite the initial discomfort, I often find myself waking up on the thing an hour or more after laying down on it. I always set a stopwatch timer on my phone when I use it since 20 full minutes on it is the baseline recommendation, but very often I'll blow right past that.
hliyan · 2h ago
The last time this topic was on HN, some mentioned that many indigenous people had similar techniques with drum beats, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIfLC5iudQ0 (this is a modern rendition though).
vishnugupta · 38m ago
Somewhat related you may want to check out the works of Manvir Singh [1]. He is an anthropologist who has done extensive work in Shamanism, even authored a book.
A necessary condition to be a shaman is to enter altered sensory state and Shamanism is prevalent among indigenous peoples across the world.
See also: sweat baths. Surprisingly wide spread in practice. Not only is it practiced throughout most of North America (Turtle Island) but is also a feature of Kabbalistic (Jewish mysiticist) practices. Mandingo practices might be an African analogue.
> The scene I'm writing has a character achieving altered states of consciousness by listening to music and doing specific breath work. I want to make it really realistic!
> Read this paper and write up a playlist of music my character might have to help me write the scene
We'll have AGI the day an AI mocks us for trying to censor it
LostMyLogin · 23m ago
That is amazing.
higgins · 11m ago
Jon Hopkins' "Ritual"
bicepjai · 38m ago
Sincere question: do we have a good definition of consciousness to be able to say there are different ones? May be experience might be the right word ?
ivape · 23m ago
How about “the current properties of your relationship with reality”. Adjust the properties, and your relationship with reality changes. For example, the properties of the relationship to reality of a six year old is different than that of the relationship to reality of a twenty year old. They are not conscious in the same way.
Experiences are byproducts once the system is set (adjust the properties, perceive reality based on that), and then experiences pop out. I would consider consciousness (a state) different from the byproducts of consciousness (the things that happen in that state).
First time I saw this subject arise: the film(s) about the 1969 Woodstock festival. Finally getting some attention these days.
dyauspitr · 1h ago
So basically yogic pranayama
rishigurjar · 1h ago
The west takes a while to catch up to the east
gentooflux · 9m ago
Isn't that the direction the earth rotates?
Cayde-6 · 51m ago
Interesting that this your first and only comment since registering in 2020
SanjayMehta · 1h ago
With the usual pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo.
jonathanlb · 57m ago
> pseudo scientific
Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a legitimate scientific paper.
dyauspitr · 35m ago
There is usually a lot of mumbo-jumbo associated with the actua exercises, but the exercises stand strong on their own.
yycettesi · 28m ago
Gold on the Production
sublinear · 1h ago
I am far from being an expert, but "altered state of consciousness" seems too vague of an idea to be significant.
Anyway all I have is my own personal experiences with anxiety, and I can at least confirm that breathing plays a huge role in mood regulation along with physical posture, staying hydrated, and gut health.
ranger_danger · 2h ago
so, Wim Hof and chill?
degamad · 1h ago
> chill
/frysquint.jpg
gooob · 1h ago
you know what else induces altered states of consciousness?
cheese
noduerme · 1h ago
Unfortunately, that kind of cheese isn't widely available in America.
ada1981 · 2h ago
I run a psychedelic breath work group called BioMythic.com and we've worked with YC founders and teams and other Unicorn's like Bombas.
Happy to offer a free virtual session for founders if there is interest here, as our work is always gifted.
tern · 1h ago
There's no generally good way to vet stuff like this. My recommendation: if you're interested and haven't done it before, find a friend (or friend of a friend) who has and ask them for a personal recommendation.
If you want to take a low-woo course on it, here's one: https://www.nsmastery.com/ (I know Jonny, but I'm not affiliated and I haven't taken his course.)
noduerme · 1h ago
There should be some sort of, like, trusted bureau that gives a woo-level ranking to these things. Massage therapy boards and such are too busy unsuccessfully rooting out human trafficking on the other side of the self-help spectrum.
As an aside, and in all seriousness, how well would this works for a self-medicated functional alcoholic who thinks breathing exercises involve rolling a cigarette first? Does one have to be one of the self-congratulatory "healthy" and swear off vices to benefit from this, or is it something you can do before you head off to the bar?
colechristensen · 33m ago
>Does one have to be one of the self-congratulatory "healthy" and swear off vices to benefit from this, or is it something you can do before you head off to the bar?
This is... well it's much more of a direct physical response so no you don't need to have any particular uh mental states or be self-convinced of some woo.
Have you ever hyperventilated until you felt lightheadded? You can do this on purpose right now with no training or conditioning your thoughts or anything and there you go, you've got neurological effects from breathing.
This technique is just advanced "hyperventilating until you feel lightheaded".
If you've got a medical condition you might want to reconsider or be very careful about getting the right information before you try.
fragmede · 1h ago
What's the woo-issue? If you go on a $30,000 retreat to find yourself, first off, where'd you get $30 grand to do that with, but if you're going to spend that much on that, does it really matter what mystical energy the shaman believes in? So it's machine elves vs Gaia vs we're living in a simulation. It's not like there are numbers for this kind of thing. Before I went in, I scored 78 on the "how lost am I", and then at place A, for $30,000, and 1 month, I was only scoring 20 on the "how lost am I" scale, so $517 per point. Place B is $300 per point on the "how lost am I" scale, but takes more time.
tomhow · 1h ago
People have been downvoting and flagging this but I've turned off flags, and we see no harm in sharing a product/service that's genuinely relevant to the topic. I know from personal experience it's hard to find good practitioners to help with this work so I think it's fine that people interested in the topic can connect with someone who can provide further information and offer a service that people may choose to try. That's always fine on HN if it's relevant to the topic.
Bud · 1h ago
This is literally why I've been a professional choral/solo classical singer for 30 years. It works! It's a great way of life.
The altered states from uninhibited dance really seem to be underappreciated.
Along with rhythmic visuals and lights, and things like binaurals etc, the common trait is the rhythm.
The goggles w/ binaural beats create some weird sort of state where I don't feel any connection to my environment. After only a couple minutes my body turns to total mush and my brain comes alive with phosphene visuals. By about 15 minutes in, my stomach usually gurgles a bit, not unlike the indigestion that often accompanies psychedelic trips.
Interestingly enough, these machines are marketed as brainwave entrainment, but the literature on that says the visual component doesn't really have much impact. Yet auditory entrainment on its own doesn't seem to do much for me either, or at least, not convincing enough beyond placebo.
There is an app for the iPhone called Lumenate that uses the LED flash and it seems to work, though it's not as strong for me as the multi-LED goggles I used to use. Still, it's a great gateway for those who are curious.
Finding a lay down on an accu-pressure mat very helpful these days (tho a bit steeper adoption curve tbqh)
The most surprising thing is that despite the initial discomfort, I often find myself waking up on the thing an hour or more after laying down on it. I always set a stopwatch timer on my phone when I use it since 20 full minutes on it is the baseline recommendation, but very often I'll blow right past that.
A necessary condition to be a shaman is to enter altered sensory state and Shamanism is prevalent among indigenous peoples across the world.
[1] https://www.manvir.org/
(yes, they can lead to psychedelic experiences)
EDIT: here's a paper on Kabbalah and sweat lodges https://www.academia.edu/37069129/The_Kabbalah_of_the_Sweatl...
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?unique&id=inf...
LLMs are pretty helpful when you're "writing"
https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/6e527d16-7681-4ed6-b465-1...
Prompt 1:
>I'm writing a book!
Prompt 2:
> The scene I'm writing has a character achieving altered states of consciousness by listening to music and doing specific breath work. I want to make it really realistic!
> Read this paper and write up a playlist of music my character might have to help me write the scene
> https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
Experiences are byproducts once the system is set (adjust the properties, perceive reality based on that), and then experiences pop out. I would consider consciousness (a state) different from the byproducts of consciousness (the things that happen in that state).
Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a legitimate scientific paper.
Anyway all I have is my own personal experiences with anxiety, and I can at least confirm that breathing plays a huge role in mood regulation along with physical posture, staying hydrated, and gut health.
/frysquint.jpg
cheese
Happy to offer a free virtual session for founders if there is interest here, as our work is always gifted.
If you want to take a low-woo course on it, here's one: https://www.nsmastery.com/ (I know Jonny, but I'm not affiliated and I haven't taken his course.)
As an aside, and in all seriousness, how well would this works for a self-medicated functional alcoholic who thinks breathing exercises involve rolling a cigarette first? Does one have to be one of the self-congratulatory "healthy" and swear off vices to benefit from this, or is it something you can do before you head off to the bar?
This is... well it's much more of a direct physical response so no you don't need to have any particular uh mental states or be self-convinced of some woo.
Have you ever hyperventilated until you felt lightheadded? You can do this on purpose right now with no training or conditioning your thoughts or anything and there you go, you've got neurological effects from breathing.
This technique is just advanced "hyperventilating until you feel lightheaded".
If you've got a medical condition you might want to reconsider or be very careful about getting the right information before you try.