H-1B is for when you cannot find an American to fill a role so somebody comes into the US on a visa to fill that slot.
O-1 [1] is a for when somebody non-American has a lot of skill and is allowed to immigrate into the US to perform it.
I still think H-1B visas should require some kind of additional fee proportional to training an American to fill that role. Afaik, most of the H-1B visas are just abuse where you hire somebody at a low wage than you'd need to for an otherwise legal resident so there needs to be some kind of higher opportunity cost to the company.
There is no requirement to demonstrate that you cannot find an American to do the job to get an H1b visa approved. If that person applies for a PERM position (needed to convert to a green card) there is. Hence the H1b is easy to game by employers to get cheap indentured servants.
With PERM (converting to a green card) they try to hide the job postings so that people will not apply so that they can get the green card approved. Some of the tricks include putting ads in the newspaper, using esoteric websites and other media such as radio instead of job boards where tech people actually look for jobs. Some Americans who have trouble finding jobs in the current market took on a side project of scraping newspaper ads and these job boards and created https://www.jobs.now/ which lists these jobs. If enough Americans that meet the minimum qualifications apply for a listed job it stops the green card process for that position, usually for 6 months before the sponsor may try again.
Also, there are a lot of stories about people getting O-1 visas via fake credential mills and research papers. Both can and are being gamed to get O-1's.
nine_k · 1h ago
Thanks for the jobs.now!
I still think that you mix up the "green card" and the "H1B visa".
The green card is a status of a permanent resident. A person legally living in the US for enough time (5 years or so) on a variety of visas can apply to get it. It costs significant money so an employer usually helps with that.
The H1B visa is a visa for a worker on a position for which a company fails to hire a worker in the US. That worker may become or not become a permanent US resident afterwards.
lgleason · 57m ago
I updated my comment to clarify what I meant by PERM, which is a green card application.
"The H1B visa is a visa for a worker on a position for which a company fails to hire a worker in the US."
The H1B visa application has no requirement to try to recruit US workers which makes it easier to game the system to pay the lowest wage possible.
fredfoobar · 37m ago
so, you believe that the H1B worker shouldn't get a greencard?
lgleason · 11m ago
If there are qualified American workers who are looking for work and applying for these positions then no, they should not. Legally they cannot either. Now on the flip side, if there is an actual shortage of qualified workers then sure. But right now, there is no shortage of qualified workers in most of these slots, especially if companies are willing to pay a competitive wage.
unsupp0rted · 1h ago
A lot of these jobs are from places like Stripe or Big-4 accounting.
Are they hiding jobs?
lgleason · 1h ago
They are making these specific jobs tough to find because they are for a PERM test and don't want to get applicants. This video is old, but the same thing is happening today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
paxys · 1h ago
> H-1B is for when you cannot find an American to fill a role
No, this is a myth. Employers can sponsor H-1B visas for any "speciality occupation" regardless of whether a citizen is available to do the job or not. Legally there are no restrictions in place re: criteria. The only thing they are required to do is pay the prevailing wage. Tests for whether a citizen can do the job only come into play later when they are sponsoring a green card.
fredfoobar · 1h ago
Some of these posts make it seem like software engineering is a low skilled job, I beg to differ, it's still a very high skilled job, < .5% of the world knows how to code.
lesuorac · 30m ago
Is it that skilled when it gets taught in 4 years in college while an Electrician has to apprenticeship for 7?
That said, whether software is high-skill or not is tangential to the point I'm making. Which is, H1-B is being used to depress wages and that reworking it shouldn't affect jobs that actually have few people that can do it because O-1 allows them to work that job.
fredfoobar · 17m ago
I don't think this is a fair comparison, software development is very complex, but an electricians job isn't, it's very simple but it's high consequence.
Software development may seem simple for a lot of people here on HN, but trust me, I can do the electricians job easily, but an electrician won't be able to do my job. The regulatory environment which requires the "apprenticeship" is a totally different topic and doesn't inform anything on the skill required to do the job. Also, the electrician apprentice gets paid while learning on the job, the software developer in training doesn't.
fredfoobar · 1h ago
Yeah, there's plenty of abuse with H1B with those consulting companies operating out of India and shipping people overseas, I don't believe many of them would qualify for the H1B. That said, many folks who come here to study and get hired by companies (usually, for their specialization in a masters degree for most foreign students) also apply for a H1B.
I don't understand your "low wage" argument though, aren't there laws against it currently? they need to be paid at least the prevailing wage in their location/job level.
The statute creating the H-1B visa—which allows U.S. employers to hire college-educated workers as well as fashion models from abroad—contains language establishing a “prevailing wage.”4 This prevailing wage requirement is intended to protect the wages of U.S. workers in occupations requiring a college degree from adverse impacts and to prevent college-educated migrant workers from being underpaid and exploited. Corporate lobbyists and other H-1B proponents often cite this prevailing wage requirement in the H-1B law as evidence that H-1B workers cannot be paid less than U.S. workers. However, the reality is that the H-1B statute, regulations, and administrative guidance allow employers wide latitude in setting wage levels....
Although salary information that corresponds to requested positions on LCAs has been made available by DOL for a number of years through the Office of Foreign Labor Certification’s LCA disclosure data, until recently the prevailing wage levels selected by employers were not readily available. In 2011, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) for the first time reported what some had suspected and speculated about but to that point were not able to officially confirm: The vast majority of H-1B jobs were being certified by DOL at the two lowest wage levels.
fredfoobar · 1h ago
any update since 2011?
lesuorac · 38m ago
> they need to be paid at least the prevailing wage in their location/job level.
I mean if you follow the law sure.
It's easy to either just pay them below market or hire them at a lower title than the role actually requires.
Fraud should be curbed and punished, but I don't understand why the visa itself is bad because of this, that's like saying people speed and break traffic laws, therefore we must ban vehicles entirely.
lesuorac · 27m ago
Afaik, the federal rule doesn't propose banning H1-B entirely. Nor was I proposing that.
So, it's more like saying "people speed and break traffic laws, therefore we're going to improve enforcement". Reasonable statement to me.
fredfoobar · 8m ago
agreed
const_cast · 29m ago
Or the ultimate work-around, pay then the same and work them twice as hard. Boom, half the wage and nobody can tell!
How many of these consulting companies just have the most awful, toxic company culture imaginable? I don't think that's a coincidence - that's a purposefully engineered cost saving strategy.
fredfoobar · 5m ago
That won't work as well as you think it does. This would come off as them being skilled enough to do the work in half the time an American would.
That said, consulting companies out of India are horrible, I don't think they'd be more productive even if they worked twice as hard.
toomuchtodo · 36m ago
I have personally seen H-1B visas used to displace US workers for labor cost optimization. Bloomberg has even done a piece on this.
Is that really true? My impression is that companies tries as much as possible to not use the O-1 route, not sure because the requirements are by design too high or process and cost are not worth it compared to other routes.
O(1) data point: got offer from FAANG to join on the H-1B lottery, later moved to L-1 because the timing was not going to work well for the H-1B process and L-1 at least would give my partner the chance to also work, I later decided to not migrate and keep working from a different country.
mvieira38 · 1h ago
Not to mention the EU countries already do effectively the same thing. If your wage is below a certain treshold (based on profession), you can't compete fairly with europeans (i.e. the company has to prove they couldn't find anyone), but if you're above it then you're eligible for the Blue Card program and get to compete fairly. Very similar to Trump's changes in intent
30minAdayHN · 1h ago
I agree with your broader point about companies abusing H1-Bs. But I'm not sure if the abuse happens through hiring at lower wage. For example, if you look at FANG, they pay as much for an H1-B as they would pay any other employee. Where is this perspective that you can hire someone at lower wage because they come with H1-B? Would love understand the loophole.
some_random · 1h ago
You can work an H1-B nearly to death, Elon has all but explicitly said so for instance. If they're fired it's very unlikely that they'll be able to get a new job before being forced to leave the country at which point they're unlikely to ever get the chance to come back and they know this.
lesuorac · 36m ago
Perhaps, FAN pay as much. G is alleged to pay less.
not every company is FANG. there are tens of thousands of companies operating at sub trillion dollar valuations which absolutely positively do this. FANG (or even "big tech") is far too narrow to draw any meaningful conclusions in the broader market.
happytoexplain · 1h ago
Wages are not straightforward, as much as businesses would like to pretend they are. What do you mean by "would pay"? They don't just make up a number. The willingness of applicants to accept a lower wage lowers the wage they "would" pay ("our wages are competitive").
mgh2 · 1h ago
Are the H1B salary reports self-reported by company, employees or are actual numbers based on W-2s, tax filing?
tyre · 1h ago
From my experience hiring as an EM at one company (Stripe) immigration status does not factor into offers.
You’re competing for this talent against every other company. If they’re good, you (and others) want to hire them.
Again: data set of one, at a high-paying company who generally has a strong ethical bent. There seem to be a lot of other experiences with the system.
Any change that hurts WITCH (Wipro, Infosys, TCS, Cognizant, HCL) is a good change. If they just plain banned those five, there probably wouldn't even be a lottery.
geodel · 1h ago
Hearing from multiple sources that there is big uptick in "offshore / global development centers" in India to support US companies who are currently using H1B in sizable numbers.
With the increasing standardization of application stacks, automation, AI (seems mostly just hype), companies are thinking even if they need developers in larger numbers they can most definitely do with cheaper offshore developers.
So US government, offshoring nation's government and American companies and their vendors are ironically on same page that H1B is going out. Even if they have different benefit or loss with current system.
fredfoobar · 1h ago
I think this is true as well.
xnx · 2h ago
Why not auction H-1B visas? Isn't that typically the most efficient/optimal way to distribute a limited resource?
dgrin91 · 2h ago
Because then the bigtechs will buy them all and everyone else gets nothing.
pyb · 1h ago
As the meme goes: "You don't need to sell it to me, I was already convinced!"
nine_k · 1h ago
It only works if hiring H1Bs is cheaper, or otherwise much more appealing, so that paying the premium on an auction makes sense.
It used to be the case, say, 15-20 years ago. It not need to be the case today. Since we're talking about big tech, let the minimal bid for a company be the median salary across that company's relevant line of work (engineering, sales, whatever). This would make hiring an H1B candidate a merit-based decision, not a cost-cutting measure. This would make hiring a US-born engineer and, say, an India-born engineer approximately equally expensive, so the company would hire the better engineer, not the cheaper.
If the price arbitrage were gone, I bet there'd remain enough H1B slots to invite better researchers, better flute players, better sea captains, etc.
DrillShopper · 9m ago
I've been a proponent of levying an excise tax on H1-B visas equal to the salary amount paid to the person on that visa (including benefits, if any).
If you really need the lower salary worker then sure, you can have them, but it will cost you.
I would also make the company sponsoring the H1-B visa responsible for all relocation costs when they fire someone on the visa.
xnx · 2h ago
> everyone else gets nothing
More revenue for the treasury and efficient allocation of resources
dghlsakjg · 1h ago
Creating an artificial market around an artificial limitation that dumps cash into the government general fund is not what most economists would describe as "efficient allocation of resources".
It might create a local maxima around revenue per visa, but "google bought all of the H1-Bs to make life harder for Apple" is both an entirely foreseeable outcome, and one that has such a wide range of negative externalities that even in the context of the local maxima, it would be a challenge to argue of efficient allocation of resources with a straight face (if that argument is, in fact, the goal).
stackskipton · 1h ago
I mean, would big tech really buy them all? The argument against H-1B is it's being used to replace American workers with cheaper workers who are locked into their employer.
If H-1B requires massive comp, there would be little reason for Big Tech to hire Jr H-1B developers unless the employer lock in is worth it.
readthenotes1 · 53m ago
Has someone mentioned above, you would have to work hard to make sure that a few companies did not want to applies the H-1B auction.
riku_iki · 36m ago
> Because then the bigtechs will buy them all and everyone else gets nothing.
and whats wrong about this? Humans funneled into area with higher added value.
some_random · 1h ago
Would they? I know that they've engaged in a ton of wage suppression historically but deliberately paying out the nose for H1B visas seems like it wouldn't be worth it.
dlachausse · 1h ago
It’s funny how the HN hive mind is against H1-B visas and AI because they suppress their wages and take their jobs. However, the millions of unskilled illegal immigrants are a good thing, because they have that effect on the working class instead.
Personally, I think we really need to take a hard look at all forms of immigration until average Americans can have good paying jobs, affordable housing, and affordable healthcare.
seanmcdirmid · 1h ago
> Personally, I think we really need to take a hard look at all forms of immigration until average Americans can have good paying jobs, affordable housing, and affordable healthcare.
You are making big assumptions that the USA is a closed system that can generate its own prosperity, and that is far from the truth. Wrecking America's competitiveness (by not taking in skilled or unskilled immigrants) is just going to turn us from a rich country into a poor country, your goals are never going to be accomplished.
dlachausse · 1h ago
Until we hit zero percent unemployment, we have a surplus of labor in this country and have no need to import any more. It is up to employers to pay competitive wages and train people to fill the vacancies.
dghlsakjg · 1h ago
Zero percent unemployment is viewed as a bad thing by almost everyone with a familiarity of the employment markets.
Zero percent unemployment means that no one without a job is looking for one. It means no new entrants into the job market (since by definition, you are unemployed the moment you start looking for your first job). And it means that no one is transitioning jobs or careers without a firm job offer in hand. It means that no business ever fails. It means that it is remarkably difficult to find employees. It means that there are no employees that quit instead of doing something immoral.
You should look into the different types of unemployment, as well as the definition of "unemployed", and specifically, frictional unemployment since you seem very unfamiliar with the base concepts.
seanmcdirmid · 1h ago
If you do this, you'll have unintended consequences:
- You don't allow the US to import skilled workers anymore, and rather than hire locally from a non-existent labor pool they simply move the jobs abroad. What's worse, hiring someone from India on an H1B to work in your AI lab, or moving your AI lab to India?
- You don't allow importing unskilled workers and expect farmers to pay $30/hour to have Americans pick apples. Or maybe...they'll just figure out how to automate those jobs or go out of business since no one wants to pay $5 for an apple.
FirmwareBurner · 1h ago
>is just going to turn us from a rich country into a poor country,
What value is the country getting richer if the people are still poor?
Wealth inequality is a real thing, and importing more labor competition for the working class people only devalues their labor, serving only to make the business owning elites richer while keeping workers poor. Bernie Sanders even said that himself.
The "line goes up" stock market and GDP numbers are abstract numbers for the working class people that don't reflect in their purchasing power or quality of life. The person flipping burgers at McD for $12 an hour, isn't gonna be better off now that Microsoft and Nvidia are worth 4 trillion instead of 1 trillion. It literally makes no difference to them.
So as long as there's no trickle down, why would people care about their country getting richer, when it's just the top 10% of the country who are seeing that richness and not them?
seanmcdirmid · 1h ago
Rather than shove out immigration and killing the golden goose, maybe we should focus on other ways of dealing with wealth inequality (improving productivity, education so our kids can compete on the world stage when they grow up, etc...)? And we seemed to have managed it for a couple of hundred years, but somehow it doesn't work now that the immigrants are no longer primarily white?
FirmwareBurner · 17m ago
> maybe we should focus on other ways of dealing with wealth inequality (improving productivity, education so our kids can compete on the world stage when they grow up, etc...)?
Yes we should. And when politicians are gonna fix those issues first, then people's opinion on importing more competing labor will change. Until then, they'll vote to tilt the supply-demand balance in their favor, as per democratic process.
People not seeing the argument of this side of the isle, are in a bubble who have never had to compete in a zero sum environment, and love writing cheques that other people have to cash. Which is why you're seeing the backlash from this at elections. If you want people to be on your side, you have to take care of their grievances first, before you take care of imported people form abroad and capital owners.
>it doesn't work now that the immigrants are no longer primarily white?
Nowhere was the skin color part of the argument till you brought that up witch says everything about you and why I'm ending the convo here.
dlachausse · 1h ago
The issue isn’t race. Typical Americans would be just as against illegal immigration if it were white Europeans flooding into our country.
The uncomfortable reality is that illegal immigration is a net negative for society, particularly when it reaches the numbers it did under the Biden administration.
dghlsakjg · 1h ago
> It’s funny how the HN hive mind is against H1-B visas and AI because they suppress their wages and take their jobs. However, the millions of unskilled illegal immigrants are a good thing, because they have that effect on the working class instead.
The hive mind is greatly exaggerated. The existence of cognitively dissonant opinions on a website is more likely evidence that the site has posters that have differing viewpoints, rather than evidence of a group thought process that is illogical.
spullara · 1h ago
This change basically makes it an auction.
skrtskrt · 1h ago
Optimal for who? These are humans not math problems
VirusNewbie · 1h ago
For the economy. We use money as a proxy for economic value.
Apes · 1h ago
It’s not even clear that an auction would be the most efficient way to allocate H-1Bs if we define efficiency as maximizing long-term economic and societal value, not just short-term revenue. An auction favors companies with deep pockets right now — meaning a startup looking to bring in a world-leading PhD in a critical field could lose out to a much larger firm simply filling headcount. That’s hardly an optimal outcome for innovation or competitiveness.
"O-1A: Individuals with an extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business, or athletics (not including the arts, motion pictures or television industry)"
Apes · 1h ago
That's technically true, but I have seen PhDs hired under H1B - I've never heard of, let alone seen someone hired under the O-1A program.
mgh95 · 1h ago
I have met people hired under the O1-A and they fit the bill pretty neatly. Think R1 profs publishing in Nature/Science/domain equivalents. If you have exceptional talent, you can 100% get in.
I think the issue is expecting a masters/phd to ensure access to th US labor market. This greatly distorts the fact that for most software engineering positions a bachelors is enough (if necessary at all), crowding the domestic market.
The US should not allow the pipeline of jr->sr engs to be culled for the sake of accessing cheap foreign labor. Given the necessity of software to run the modern economy, it really is a national security issue.
xnx · 1h ago
> meaning a startup looking to bring in a world-leading PhD in a critical field could lose out to a much larger firm simply filling headcount.
Is it unfair that a big company could afford to pay more to hire a desirable employee than a small startup?
HardCodedBias · 2h ago
100% should be the way it should be done.
If there is surplus to being physically in the US, then the US should gain some of that surplus.
Let the market decide.
The H1B isn't charity, it is a work visa for specialty occupations.
o11c · 2h ago
The status quo is that the H-1B is a charity, given out to companies who don't want to pay what their workers are worth.
fredfoobar · 1h ago
Do you have examples of these? they'd be easy targets to be sued for breaking the labor laws.
Apes · 2h ago
People want at least the appearance of a holistic process that considers a candidate’s broader value to society — even if that process isn’t perfect. An auction drops the pretense entirely and just says: pay to win.
slt2021 · 1h ago
all visas will go to tech, and no visas will go to Nurses, professors, teachers, artists etc
gruturo · 1h ago
So nurses, professors, teachers and artists will be in higher demand and they'll have to pay them a better salary to fill positions? which may attract people who currently avoid those career cause they lead to poverty? Yup I'm sold.
And as others said, add a cost factor to train an citizen for every H-1B issued. Actually, slap a 350% tax on all the salaries paid to H-1Bs except for the first 15 people (or, I don't know, 3% of the overall staff, whichever is higher) and make sure it's hard to game with shell companies, body shops and subsidiaries.
Precisely 0% chance it'll happen in the current administration, and it's anyone guess if there will be administrations after this one, but a few hours of additional thinking around this solution (this is the first 3 minutes roughly) could make it work way better. Remove limits, make it really expensive, give some rights to the people who come on it, use the money to address real shortages, and watch companies stop abusing it.
P.S.
European here, with 0 interest in coming to work in the US.
some_random · 1h ago
I had no idea there was a huge shortage of professors, teachers, and artists.
slt2021 · 1h ago
there is always a demand for a talent in the US
some_random · 1h ago
Of course, and perhaps if you're having trouble with supply in famously poorly paid fields then paying better might help.
jdale27 · 1h ago
If they’re not willing to pay up, then there isn’t really a shortage.
542458 · 1h ago
If we think those things have positive externalities (such that we want them to happen even if they wouldn't win an auction) we should subsidize them.
diebeforei485 · 1h ago
Nurses generally can't get an H-1B, and professors are exempt. Your argument makes no sense.
slt2021 · 1h ago
approximately 500,000 foreign-educated nurses in the U.S. utilize the H-1B visa (per google AI overview)
oldpersonintx2 · 2h ago
there are already ways in to the US for people who want to pay
Trump's "golden ticket" for example
mdasen · 1h ago
I'm not the person who proposed the auction, but I read it as "let the companies compete for the H1-B visas in an auction," not about the workers buying their way into the US.
For example, if CheapoCorp is looking to replace reasonably well paid US workers with H1-B workers, they won't bid much for the visas. CheapoCorp isn't trying to get good talent from overseas. They're trying to save money, push down wages, have a workforce that they can mistreat (since they can't easily leave the company given their immigration status requires employment), etc.
By contrast, if a company is looking to hire great engineers or scientists from overseas because they're in a growing industry with a shortage of workers, they would be willing to pay a lot more to get the H1-B visas. They're not looking to save $20,000/year on someone's salary. They want top talent.
When companies are trying to replace their workforce with lower-paid foreign workers who can't complain (lest they lose their job and with it their immigration status), that's not what the H1-B system was designed for. It certainly is how some companies are using it. If you're on an H1-B and lose your job, you have 60 days to find a new job or you're gone. That's going to make you a much more compliant employee. You have little leverage to negotiate raises, you aren't likely to quit even if they're overworking you, they can pass you over for promotions and you'll quietly accept it.
But if the employer is competing in an auction for H1-B visas, they're more likely to be companies that are seeking out top talent rather than seeking out workers they can underpay and mistreat.
Apes · 1h ago
It’s not hard to imagine a loophole here:
• Someone with a lot of money wants to get U.S. residency.
• They set up or work with a shell company that “hires” them under the H-1B program.
• That company uses part of their payment to win the visa auction.
• Once in the U.S., the “employee” does whatever they want — the job is just window dressing.
This is essentially what’s happened in other visa categories when money alone becomes the main filter.
fredfoobar · 1h ago
how does the "employee" survive here by doing whatever they want? what with the cost of living and all.
Apes · 1h ago
The “employee” isn’t living off an H-1B salary — they’re already wealthy enough to bankroll the whole arrangement. The company is just a shell to win the auction and sponsor them. If an auction system were adopted without safeguards, it could turn the H-1B program from a labor-market tool into a plaything for the ultra-wealthy.
fredfoobar · 1h ago
seems wasteful, I'm trying to understand why, what is the "play" here?
cnst · 1h ago
But the golden ticket requires 5mil. Even in the US, even the most talented engineers, probably wouldn't have that much until after 5 to 10+ years of work, and outside of the US, earning that much money as an engineer is probably next to impossible before well over 40+. (And, even then, if all you have is just the 5mil, would you really part with that much money just for a visa?)
piombisallow · 2h ago
IF implemented in a sane manner, I don't see how this is worse than a lottery based system.
jajuuka · 1h ago
Instead of it being fair to everyone in the pool it now gives an advantage to the wealthy to buy their way into a H1B. Seems significantly worse.
No comments yet
rahulgoel · 1h ago
Welcome change. I studied engineering at a U.S. university, came here 10 years ago, and still did not make it through the lottery (while the ones gaming the system did).
TimPC · 1h ago
Ranking by Salary probably makes the most sense if you're going to cap the numbers you want the most productive people who contribute the most to the tax base.
upmind · 2h ago
Can they not increase the amount of visas they can give out?
stackskipton · 1h ago
They could but Congress would have to get involved. H-1B visa increase is likely to be heavily unpopular with voters. This American voter for sure would not be thrilled.
No comments yet
khuey · 2h ago
Congress would have to change the law.
geodel · 1h ago
increase why?
insane_dreamer · 11m ago
> [Microsoft] applied for 9,491 H-1B visas during the last fiscal year, all of which were approved. The company has laid off nearly 16,000 people in total this year, out of a 228,000-strong global employee base.
It shouldn't be able to get new H-1B's if it's laying people off. Hard to believe that the new H-1B hires are more qualified than the people that were laid off.
At the same time we see articles about how after being told to get a STEM degree, new CS grads can't find jobs.[0]
I sympathize with those in India wanting to get a higher pay job in the US, but it does perpetuate abusive behavior by companies (who have that employee under their thumb because their visa is tied to their employment), and it makes things much harder for new grads in the US (especially given college tuition costs) to get jobs.
> The proposed weighted-selection concept echoes a 2021 DHS plan under President Donald Trump's first administration that had sought to rank and select petitions by wage tiers (OES wage levels IV down to I), an approach that the Trump administration argued would prioritize higher-paid, highly skilled hires. That earlier plan faced opposition, was withdrawn by the Biden administration and saw related regulations blocked in federal court.
This seems like a no-brainer. Why did Biden withdraw the rule?
dec0dedab0de · 1h ago
Probably because someone told him to. That someone was likely using H1b visas to save money instead of because of an actual need.
fredfoobar · 1h ago
Do you have examples of these people who are saving money using H1B?
dec0dedab0de · 15m ago
about 12 years ago I worked at a very large non-tech company that had outsourced to contractors to work on some code. They had a room in the basement for about 20 kids on H1B visas that were clearly right out of college. This was in a major city that had plenty of jr developers around, they just would expect more money.
I forget the contractors company name but they came up on HN at the time for being abusive towards their employees who risked deportation if they stood up for themselves. If I find specific examples I'll add them later, but you can probably just search hn for h1b.
fredfoobar · 9m ago
I'm sure it's ok to give out specifics of something that happened 12 years ago, what makes you think this sort of stuff is still happening?
animitronix · 1h ago
That's what they all do. The whole H1B program needs to be shelved.
Moomoomoo309 · 1h ago
I think the whole "blocked in federal court" part is why.
upmind · 2h ago
Did they release the salary levels/corresponding weightings?
maest · 2h ago
Does salary mean TC or just base? How are discretionary bonuses handled?
kyawzazaw · 1h ago
base
dilyevsky · 2h ago
best i can tell the rule modification hasn't been published yet
H-1B is for when you cannot find an American to fill a role so somebody comes into the US on a visa to fill that slot.
O-1 [1] is a for when somebody non-American has a lot of skill and is allowed to immigrate into the US to perform it.
I still think H-1B visas should require some kind of additional fee proportional to training an American to fill that role. Afaik, most of the H-1B visas are just abuse where you hire somebody at a low wage than you'd need to for an otherwise legal resident so there needs to be some kind of higher opportunity cost to the company.
[1]: https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...
With PERM (converting to a green card) they try to hide the job postings so that people will not apply so that they can get the green card approved. Some of the tricks include putting ads in the newspaper, using esoteric websites and other media such as radio instead of job boards where tech people actually look for jobs. Some Americans who have trouble finding jobs in the current market took on a side project of scraping newspaper ads and these job boards and created https://www.jobs.now/ which lists these jobs. If enough Americans that meet the minimum qualifications apply for a listed job it stops the green card process for that position, usually for 6 months before the sponsor may try again.
Also, there are a lot of stories about people getting O-1 visas via fake credential mills and research papers. Both can and are being gamed to get O-1's.
I still think that you mix up the "green card" and the "H1B visa".
The green card is a status of a permanent resident. A person legally living in the US for enough time (5 years or so) on a variety of visas can apply to get it. It costs significant money so an employer usually helps with that.
The H1B visa is a visa for a worker on a position for which a company fails to hire a worker in the US. That worker may become or not become a permanent US resident afterwards.
"The H1B visa is a visa for a worker on a position for which a company fails to hire a worker in the US."
The H1B visa application has no requirement to try to recruit US workers which makes it easier to game the system to pay the lowest wage possible.
Are they hiding jobs?
No, this is a myth. Employers can sponsor H-1B visas for any "speciality occupation" regardless of whether a citizen is available to do the job or not. Legally there are no restrictions in place re: criteria. The only thing they are required to do is pay the prevailing wage. Tests for whether a citizen can do the job only come into play later when they are sponsoring a green card.
That said, whether software is high-skill or not is tangential to the point I'm making. Which is, H1-B is being used to depress wages and that reworking it shouldn't affect jobs that actually have few people that can do it because O-1 allows them to work that job.
Software development may seem simple for a lot of people here on HN, but trust me, I can do the electricians job easily, but an electrician won't be able to do my job. The regulatory environment which requires the "apprenticeship" is a totally different topic and doesn't inform anything on the skill required to do the job. Also, the electrician apprentice gets paid while learning on the job, the software developer in training doesn't.
I don't understand your "low wage" argument though, aren't there laws against it currently? they need to be paid at least the prevailing wage in their location/job level.
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I mean if you follow the law sure.
It's easy to either just pay them below market or hire them at a lower title than the role actually requires.
https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/09/h1b_visa_fraud/
https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage...
So, it's more like saying "people speed and break traffic laws, therefore we're going to improve enforcement". Reasonable statement to me.
How many of these consulting companies just have the most awful, toxic company culture imaginable? I don't think that's a coincidence - that's a purposefully engineered cost saving strategy.
That said, consulting companies out of India are horrible, I don't think they'd be more productive even if they worked twice as hard.
H-1B Middlemen Bring Cheap Labor to Citi, Capital One - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44398978 - June 2025
O(1) data point: got offer from FAANG to join on the H-1B lottery, later moved to L-1 because the timing was not going to work well for the H-1B process and L-1 at least would give my partner the chance to also work, I later decided to not migrate and keep working from a different country.
https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage...
You’re competing for this talent against every other company. If they’re good, you (and others) want to hire them.
Again: data set of one, at a high-paying company who generally has a strong ethical bent. There seem to be a lot of other experiences with the system.
With the increasing standardization of application stacks, automation, AI (seems mostly just hype), companies are thinking even if they need developers in larger numbers they can most definitely do with cheaper offshore developers.
So US government, offshoring nation's government and American companies and their vendors are ironically on same page that H1B is going out. Even if they have different benefit or loss with current system.
It used to be the case, say, 15-20 years ago. It not need to be the case today. Since we're talking about big tech, let the minimal bid for a company be the median salary across that company's relevant line of work (engineering, sales, whatever). This would make hiring an H1B candidate a merit-based decision, not a cost-cutting measure. This would make hiring a US-born engineer and, say, an India-born engineer approximately equally expensive, so the company would hire the better engineer, not the cheaper.
If the price arbitrage were gone, I bet there'd remain enough H1B slots to invite better researchers, better flute players, better sea captains, etc.
If you really need the lower salary worker then sure, you can have them, but it will cost you.
I would also make the company sponsoring the H1-B visa responsible for all relocation costs when they fire someone on the visa.
More revenue for the treasury and efficient allocation of resources
It might create a local maxima around revenue per visa, but "google bought all of the H1-Bs to make life harder for Apple" is both an entirely foreseeable outcome, and one that has such a wide range of negative externalities that even in the context of the local maxima, it would be a challenge to argue of efficient allocation of resources with a straight face (if that argument is, in fact, the goal).
If H-1B requires massive comp, there would be little reason for Big Tech to hire Jr H-1B developers unless the employer lock in is worth it.
and whats wrong about this? Humans funneled into area with higher added value.
Personally, I think we really need to take a hard look at all forms of immigration until average Americans can have good paying jobs, affordable housing, and affordable healthcare.
You are making big assumptions that the USA is a closed system that can generate its own prosperity, and that is far from the truth. Wrecking America's competitiveness (by not taking in skilled or unskilled immigrants) is just going to turn us from a rich country into a poor country, your goals are never going to be accomplished.
Zero percent unemployment means that no one without a job is looking for one. It means no new entrants into the job market (since by definition, you are unemployed the moment you start looking for your first job). And it means that no one is transitioning jobs or careers without a firm job offer in hand. It means that no business ever fails. It means that it is remarkably difficult to find employees. It means that there are no employees that quit instead of doing something immoral.
You should look into the different types of unemployment, as well as the definition of "unemployed", and specifically, frictional unemployment since you seem very unfamiliar with the base concepts.
- You don't allow the US to import skilled workers anymore, and rather than hire locally from a non-existent labor pool they simply move the jobs abroad. What's worse, hiring someone from India on an H1B to work in your AI lab, or moving your AI lab to India?
- You don't allow importing unskilled workers and expect farmers to pay $30/hour to have Americans pick apples. Or maybe...they'll just figure out how to automate those jobs or go out of business since no one wants to pay $5 for an apple.
What value is the country getting richer if the people are still poor?
Wealth inequality is a real thing, and importing more labor competition for the working class people only devalues their labor, serving only to make the business owning elites richer while keeping workers poor. Bernie Sanders even said that himself.
The "line goes up" stock market and GDP numbers are abstract numbers for the working class people that don't reflect in their purchasing power or quality of life. The person flipping burgers at McD for $12 an hour, isn't gonna be better off now that Microsoft and Nvidia are worth 4 trillion instead of 1 trillion. It literally makes no difference to them.
So as long as there's no trickle down, why would people care about their country getting richer, when it's just the top 10% of the country who are seeing that richness and not them?
Yes we should. And when politicians are gonna fix those issues first, then people's opinion on importing more competing labor will change. Until then, they'll vote to tilt the supply-demand balance in their favor, as per democratic process.
People not seeing the argument of this side of the isle, are in a bubble who have never had to compete in a zero sum environment, and love writing cheques that other people have to cash. Which is why you're seeing the backlash from this at elections. If you want people to be on your side, you have to take care of their grievances first, before you take care of imported people form abroad and capital owners.
>it doesn't work now that the immigrants are no longer primarily white?
Nowhere was the skin color part of the argument till you brought that up witch says everything about you and why I'm ending the convo here.
The uncomfortable reality is that illegal immigration is a net negative for society, particularly when it reaches the numbers it did under the Biden administration.
The hive mind is greatly exaggerated. The existence of cognitively dissonant opinions on a website is more likely evidence that the site has posters that have differing viewpoints, rather than evidence of a group thought process that is illogical.
"O-1A: Individuals with an extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business, or athletics (not including the arts, motion pictures or television industry)"
I think the issue is expecting a masters/phd to ensure access to th US labor market. This greatly distorts the fact that for most software engineering positions a bachelors is enough (if necessary at all), crowding the domestic market.
The US should not allow the pipeline of jr->sr engs to be culled for the sake of accessing cheap foreign labor. Given the necessity of software to run the modern economy, it really is a national security issue.
Is it unfair that a big company could afford to pay more to hire a desirable employee than a small startup?
If there is surplus to being physically in the US, then the US should gain some of that surplus.
Let the market decide.
The H1B isn't charity, it is a work visa for specialty occupations.
And as others said, add a cost factor to train an citizen for every H-1B issued. Actually, slap a 350% tax on all the salaries paid to H-1Bs except for the first 15 people (or, I don't know, 3% of the overall staff, whichever is higher) and make sure it's hard to game with shell companies, body shops and subsidiaries.
Precisely 0% chance it'll happen in the current administration, and it's anyone guess if there will be administrations after this one, but a few hours of additional thinking around this solution (this is the first 3 minutes roughly) could make it work way better. Remove limits, make it really expensive, give some rights to the people who come on it, use the money to address real shortages, and watch companies stop abusing it.
P.S. European here, with 0 interest in coming to work in the US.
Trump's "golden ticket" for example
For example, if CheapoCorp is looking to replace reasonably well paid US workers with H1-B workers, they won't bid much for the visas. CheapoCorp isn't trying to get good talent from overseas. They're trying to save money, push down wages, have a workforce that they can mistreat (since they can't easily leave the company given their immigration status requires employment), etc.
By contrast, if a company is looking to hire great engineers or scientists from overseas because they're in a growing industry with a shortage of workers, they would be willing to pay a lot more to get the H1-B visas. They're not looking to save $20,000/year on someone's salary. They want top talent.
When companies are trying to replace their workforce with lower-paid foreign workers who can't complain (lest they lose their job and with it their immigration status), that's not what the H1-B system was designed for. It certainly is how some companies are using it. If you're on an H1-B and lose your job, you have 60 days to find a new job or you're gone. That's going to make you a much more compliant employee. You have little leverage to negotiate raises, you aren't likely to quit even if they're overworking you, they can pass you over for promotions and you'll quietly accept it.
But if the employer is competing in an auction for H1-B visas, they're more likely to be companies that are seeking out top talent rather than seeking out workers they can underpay and mistreat.
• Someone with a lot of money wants to get U.S. residency.
• They set up or work with a shell company that “hires” them under the H-1B program.
• That company uses part of their payment to win the visa auction.
• Once in the U.S., the “employee” does whatever they want — the job is just window dressing.
This is essentially what’s happened in other visa categories when money alone becomes the main filter.
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It shouldn't be able to get new H-1B's if it's laying people off. Hard to believe that the new H-1B hires are more qualified than the people that were laid off.
At the same time we see articles about how after being told to get a STEM degree, new CS grads can't find jobs.[0]
I sympathize with those in India wanting to get a higher pay job in the US, but it does perpetuate abusive behavior by companies (who have that employee under their thumb because their visa is tied to their employment), and it makes things much harder for new grads in the US (especially given college tuition costs) to get jobs.
[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/10/technology/coding-ai-jobs...
This seems like a no-brainer. Why did Biden withdraw the rule?
I forget the contractors company name but they came up on HN at the time for being abusive towards their employees who risked deportation if they stood up for themselves. If I find specific examples I'll add them later, but you can probably just search hn for h1b.