One thing that usually doesn't get mentioned is what happens when someone else needs to quickly use the computer for whatever. Like a coworker helping you to check something, for which I just leave them the controls; or a partner doing a quick google while we discuss about where to travel next. I'm just making up scenarios, but the point is that not having an additional backup keyboard effectively makes the machine unusable for anyone else; this could jokingly be a pro, but more seriously it seems to be a hidrance for collaboration. And unless living in a cave, we collaborate with other human beings sooner or later. So an additional keyboard it is...
the same happened to me when I used the Elecom Huge trackball... I'd want someone to check something and they wouldn't even know how to left click :) (it's done with the thumb)
butshouldyou · 4m ago
It's funny that you mention this because in my discussions on this subject (Svalboard, ergo keyboards in general) it's the first thing that numerous people have mentioned. The thing is, I'm the only person who's used my computer in many years.
I have a non-standard layout and keep a second (small wireless) keyboard around for exactly this reason but to date it hasn;t been needed.
ivanjermakov · 6m ago
> to quickly use the computer for whatever
I prefer to be the only person using my computer.
As a plus, split keyboard with a custom layout and a minimal window manager kinda act as a lock screen.
eviks · 6h ago
The progression from unergonomic garbage default to splits and ~glovey form makes sense (with the future more sensitive per-finger sensors allowing for more gestures?), though it's a pity the health issues were involved, and that the resulting niche is small and expensive. Where are all the cheep rubber dome splits? Those would already offer health advantage without the mechanical premium...
By the way, the layout might better use physical direction mnemonics, so backspace could be a finger move to the left, and delete - move to the right (either by the same finger or maybe by its mirrored counterpart on another hand). Similar thing for <> and -+-+
> north keys are much harder to hit than its south keys,
> find the inward lateral keys much easier to hit than the north keys
So, basically, "grabbing" movements are more natural?
zamalek · 6h ago
The think the premium that these devices suffer from is how niche they are. Mechanical is relatively niche to begin with (programmers and gamers, mostly). Then you add the idea of making a single large investment for the good of your health, and the pool gets even thinner. Just think of all the garbage chairs that people sit on in front of their computer; let alone keyboards, which they barely think of (until they get RSI, that is).
I'm currently designing one that is a crossover between the characorder and a Logitech vertical mouse (but not actually a mouse), and I hope to make it cheap. It has been going poorly, to say the least. The biggest problem so far is smaller hands, multiple designs scrapped when put in front of such a person. Maybe I should take inspiration from Svalboard instead? Furthermore, Average Joe is not going to tolerate the massive dependency on layers that these keyboards often have, so I'm still fighting in my head with an approach for that.
ilc · 5h ago
The Datahand / Svalboard branch is even more niche than a standard mech board. They are really designed for people who are facing injury, injured, or have been injured.
I'd encourage you to look at the Svalboard, I think it solves many of the issues you are running into. In the end, moving a large mouse is not good for someone with shoulder issues, the "Svalmouse" has been tried and solidly rejected. (Using a Svalboard hand as a mouse.)
If you want to discuss things, I'm sure you can find me on the Svalboard discord. :)
zamalek · 2h ago
I'm not sure you understood me: it looks like the ergo mouse (form factor, ergonomics) but is most definitely not a mouse. As I said though, it seems more difficult to get a keyboard to fit a variety of hands in this form-factor.
ilc · 1h ago
Without a hand in it, yeah you might think that. But it is easily 2x the length, and 2-3x the width of my Pulsar X2mini.
I don't think anyone would mistake it for a mouse.
zamalek · 57m ago
I'm referring to "svalmouse," that's not what I'm thinking at all. The only mouse thing about my design was the form-factor, the shape of the shell, the fact that it's vertical.
Twey · 5h ago
That sounds really cool! I'd love to see it when you've got something more concrete. I assume you're already aware of the KeyMouse and the AlphaGrip?
I don't think the layering needs to be as big a deal as one might assume. I mentioned in the post, but in many ways I think layering is easier to deal with than larger keyboards, and not only that but also culturally small-keyboard users are increasingly okay with using layers, e.g. the tiny-keyboard gamer crowd, or even most laptops now have a dedicated Fn layer in addition to the traditional shift, ctrl, and alt. So long as you don't go overboard with it I think it shouldn't be that intimidating.
lytfyre · 5h ago
I grabbed an alphagrip from the ewaste bin at my local hackspace a few years ago. Gave it a solid week - which was enough for me to get at least marginally competent with the layout. I found it extremely awkward. I think the compact controller style forces your wrists into an awkward angle, so any advantages of minimizing fingers motion is compromised by the awkward neutral position.
Sloppy back switch mechanisms and a really bad trackball on top.
Too uncomfortable to use full time, to awkward to hunt and peck for an occasional couch/TV navigation keyboard - It went back in the ewaste bin.
I've been on a kinesis advantage 360 for a few years, after an ergodox and the older fixed size Advantages. Been eyeing the Svalboard, thanks for sharing your experiences!
Twey · 4h ago
Nice! I've never managed to try one myself, but I did assume something like that would be the case. To be fair to them, they never really promise hand ergonomics — just the freedom to type while in weird positions. I guess it's kind of the opposite of the Svalboard, in that way. If I had problems sitting in a conventional typing position, maybe that tradeoff would be worth it.
I love the Advantages and I really missed the bowling when I moved to the Ergodox — it remains my only real complaint with that keyboard family.
Glad I could be of help!
zamalek · 5h ago
More things to ~steal~ take inspiration from, thank you :). If I'm completely naive with my approach, I would have 5 fingers * 4 directions * 2 hands. That's a paltry 40 keys. To make matters worse, some of them are sub-optimal: the ring finger isn't great at sideways movements (at least on my hand). 35-40 keys is end-game enthusiast level minimalism.
jerlam · 5h ago
> Where are all the cheep rubber dome splits?
The only halfway decent player in this category was Microsoft, with its line of Natural Keyboards. I've used four or five of them, decent enough. I doubt Microsoft was making a lot of money.
The line was discontinued in 2023 and sold to Incase:
I've been pretty happy with this as a MS 4000 replacement: https://eu.perixx.com/products/periboard-535 - general tent/reverse tilt/split angle feels about the same. Like the MS 4000, it's a full size keyboard, with symmetrical sets of meta keys, unintrusive level of F-lock nonsense, easily accessible keyboard volume controls, and a generally standard layout that will probably require only minimal retraining. Also connects to your computer using a cable... none of that wireless nonsense. The UK layout version is under £100 on Amazon.
It feels a bit less solid than the MS 4000, but it's nicer to type on.
(The MS 4000 was always a huge pain to repair (endless screws to get inside, many annoyingly inaccessible; never anything obviously wrong once in there; time-consuming cleaning/drying-out process; endless screws to put it back together again), but this looks like it might be a bit better. Not many screws on the bottom. It isn't thick enough for there to be any hiding inside. The keyswitches will probably be individually replaceable. Ask me again in 10 years though!)
Looks good, they kept the negative tilt which I find very important but nearly impossible to pitch to non-ergonomic keyboard users.
Twey · 6h ago
I agree, I never wanted to get into mechanical keyboards per se — I was always just on the lookout for an ergonomic layout. Mechanical switches are cheaper and cheaper these days, though, and I suspect the premium on high-end keyboards now is more from a combination of the luxury good tax and the lack of economies of scale.
I really wanted to make myself a steno theory for the CharaChorder, but now I don't have time. There's definitely something to be done with keyboards like this and I do reckon you could do better than with the mechanical constraints of the stenotype, but it's not trivial: the extra inputs are hard to make use of if you want to avoid awkward ‘scissoring’ strokes, though there are definitely some comfortable strokes in there to mine.
The physical direction thing is a neat idea but a bit hindered by the fact that the two sides have very different accessibility: typically the inward keypress is much easier than the outward keypress. There might be some pairs that's good for, though, e.g. the backspace/delete pair you mention (if put on the right hand: delete is much less common, in my experience, than backspace).
> So, basically, "grabbing" movements are more natural?
Right, for me at least that seems to be the case. Other Svalboard users seem to pretty unanimously agree that outward movements are worse than inward movements, especially on e.g. the ring finger, but people differ on how the inward/upward/downward movements compare.
ilc · 5h ago
Disclaimer: Volunteer Svalboard Firmware Dev.
For most people the south keys and center are easier to press and more importantly hold. I don't care much about directions anymore, except for holding down keys.
Layout is a personal thing, we use Vial, so different people have different layouts, mine has a ton of mnemonics in it. It's really up to the user what they want, I'd be surprised if there are 2 Svalboards with the same layout. (Maybe stock when they are starting out, but people develop their own opinions pretty quickly.)
donio · 2h ago
I am a longtime (25+ years) Datahand user. I have converted my units to a USB capable controller long ago and I have some extra ones as spares/parts but it might be difficult to get another 25 years out of them.
Haven't tried the Svalboard yet but it's the only obvious way forward that I know of so happy to see any new information about it. I'd be especially interested in the opinion of other Datahand users regarding the Svalboard, specifically the hardware, the switches and overall feel.
ilc · 1h ago
Ex-Datahand user, current Svalboard user: (Disclaimer, I work on their firmware as a volunteer, they send me hardware.)
The designer was 100% dependent on his Datahand, now he uses a Svalboard.
When I got sent my first Svalboard, it was so close feel wise that my old muscle memory came back instantly and I started complaining that the layout wasn't the same as the old Datahand Dvorak layout. I ended up doing a faithful port of that layout, then ever time evolved it to the layout I use today.
If you doubt, order a test cluster. You'll see how close it comes.
On the discord some users are willing to meet-up with people to let them try a board in real life.
Fraterkes · 2h ago
My big fear would be that the same thing would happen that happens with vim: you get so used to it that you resent its absence. With Vim I can at least enable some kind of mode in many typing environments, but if I started loving the Svalboard itd mean that I could never use laptops again without feeling at least a bit annoyed.
ivanjermakov · 3m ago
It is indeed very painful, but solution is simple - always bring your keyboard. It's easier with low profile splits than with Svalboard though.
My Ferris Sweep fits into an 2.5" SSD travel case.
jerlam · 1h ago
Laptops have tradeoffs, just like all other mobile devices.
I don't avoid using an ultrawide monitor at home, because sometimes I have to use a phone that fits in my pocket.
efnx · 1h ago
As a datahand user I can tell you that is indeed the case. But 99% of the time (likely more) I’m typing at home.
Why deny yourself the pleasure of a nice typing experience the majority of the time?
ilc · 1h ago
Honestly, you can maintain laptop muscle memory if your hands are not so injured you can't tolerate the laptop.
I use a laptop keyboard every so often. It isn't my 1st choice, but for light work it's fine.
jiehong · 2h ago
Looks like a cool kind of keyboard.
I tried the ergodox, but eventually resold it (came from a typematrix).
But I like most my Kinesis Advantage 360.
Strangely, I find myself using dictation more and more while working. With a headset on, people don’t notice much since it looks and sound like being in a virtual meeting.
Coding is still best with a keyboard.
Twey · 2h ago
I don't think there's _fundamentally_ anything hard about voice coding, but our current systems are terribly designed for it. We need programming languages that are much more keyword- rather than symbol-heavy, or more efficient systems of pronouncing symbols, or higher-level editing primitives, or maybe all of the above. There's some overlap with both stenography (which I know some people use for code, but I've never got around to setting up a theory for) and also structured editing projects like Hazel. Reckon we might see more of it in the future, if we're to make the ubiquitous and malleable computing dreams a reality.
RDaneel0livaw · 4h ago
I have loved split ergo boards since childhood. Several years ago I found the sp111 board and truly think this is my endgame. I am right handed, so a southpaw numpad just makes SO much sense to me. Plus I use it for gaming so it's like a built in gaming macropad.
I also have a kinesis advantage 2 with some insanely nice switches, but never use it just because of the learning curve.
the same happened to me when I used the Elecom Huge trackball... I'd want someone to check something and they wouldn't even know how to left click :) (it's done with the thumb)
I have a non-standard layout and keep a second (small wireless) keyboard around for exactly this reason but to date it hasn;t been needed.
I prefer to be the only person using my computer.
As a plus, split keyboard with a custom layout and a minimal window manager kinda act as a lock screen.
By the way, the layout might better use physical direction mnemonics, so backspace could be a finger move to the left, and delete - move to the right (either by the same finger or maybe by its mirrored counterpart on another hand). Similar thing for <> and -+-+
> north keys are much harder to hit than its south keys, > find the inward lateral keys much easier to hit than the north keys
So, basically, "grabbing" movements are more natural?
I'm currently designing one that is a crossover between the characorder and a Logitech vertical mouse (but not actually a mouse), and I hope to make it cheap. It has been going poorly, to say the least. The biggest problem so far is smaller hands, multiple designs scrapped when put in front of such a person. Maybe I should take inspiration from Svalboard instead? Furthermore, Average Joe is not going to tolerate the massive dependency on layers that these keyboards often have, so I'm still fighting in my head with an approach for that.
I'd encourage you to look at the Svalboard, I think it solves many of the issues you are running into. In the end, moving a large mouse is not good for someone with shoulder issues, the "Svalmouse" has been tried and solidly rejected. (Using a Svalboard hand as a mouse.)
If you want to discuss things, I'm sure you can find me on the Svalboard discord. :)
I don't think anyone would mistake it for a mouse.
https://www.keymouse.com/ https://alphagrip.com/
I don't think the layering needs to be as big a deal as one might assume. I mentioned in the post, but in many ways I think layering is easier to deal with than larger keyboards, and not only that but also culturally small-keyboard users are increasingly okay with using layers, e.g. the tiny-keyboard gamer crowd, or even most laptops now have a dedicated Fn layer in addition to the traditional shift, ctrl, and alt. So long as you don't go overboard with it I think it shouldn't be that intimidating.
Too uncomfortable to use full time, to awkward to hunt and peck for an occasional couch/TV navigation keyboard - It went back in the ewaste bin.
I've been on a kinesis advantage 360 for a few years, after an ergodox and the older fixed size Advantages. Been eyeing the Svalboard, thanks for sharing your experiences!
I love the Advantages and I really missed the bowling when I moved to the Ergodox — it remains my only real complaint with that keyboard family.
Glad I could be of help!
The only halfway decent player in this category was Microsoft, with its line of Natural Keyboards. I've used four or five of them, decent enough. I doubt Microsoft was making a lot of money.
The line was discontinued in 2023 and sold to Incase:
https://www.incase.com/pages/incase-designed-by-microsoft-co...
It feels a bit less solid than the MS 4000, but it's nicer to type on.
(The MS 4000 was always a huge pain to repair (endless screws to get inside, many annoyingly inaccessible; never anything obviously wrong once in there; time-consuming cleaning/drying-out process; endless screws to put it back together again), but this looks like it might be a bit better. Not many screws on the bottom. It isn't thick enough for there to be any hiding inside. The keyswitches will probably be individually replaceable. Ask me again in 10 years though!)
I really wanted to make myself a steno theory for the CharaChorder, but now I don't have time. There's definitely something to be done with keyboards like this and I do reckon you could do better than with the mechanical constraints of the stenotype, but it's not trivial: the extra inputs are hard to make use of if you want to avoid awkward ‘scissoring’ strokes, though there are definitely some comfortable strokes in there to mine.
The physical direction thing is a neat idea but a bit hindered by the fact that the two sides have very different accessibility: typically the inward keypress is much easier than the outward keypress. There might be some pairs that's good for, though, e.g. the backspace/delete pair you mention (if put on the right hand: delete is much less common, in my experience, than backspace).
> So, basically, "grabbing" movements are more natural?
Right, for me at least that seems to be the case. Other Svalboard users seem to pretty unanimously agree that outward movements are worse than inward movements, especially on e.g. the ring finger, but people differ on how the inward/upward/downward movements compare.
For most people the south keys and center are easier to press and more importantly hold. I don't care much about directions anymore, except for holding down keys.
Layout is a personal thing, we use Vial, so different people have different layouts, mine has a ton of mnemonics in it. It's really up to the user what they want, I'd be surprised if there are 2 Svalboards with the same layout. (Maybe stock when they are starting out, but people develop their own opinions pretty quickly.)
Haven't tried the Svalboard yet but it's the only obvious way forward that I know of so happy to see any new information about it. I'd be especially interested in the opinion of other Datahand users regarding the Svalboard, specifically the hardware, the switches and overall feel.
The designer was 100% dependent on his Datahand, now he uses a Svalboard.
When I got sent my first Svalboard, it was so close feel wise that my old muscle memory came back instantly and I started complaining that the layout wasn't the same as the old Datahand Dvorak layout. I ended up doing a faithful port of that layout, then ever time evolved it to the layout I use today.
If you doubt, order a test cluster. You'll see how close it comes.
On the discord some users are willing to meet-up with people to let them try a board in real life.
My Ferris Sweep fits into an 2.5" SSD travel case.
I don't avoid using an ultrawide monitor at home, because sometimes I have to use a phone that fits in my pocket.
Why deny yourself the pleasure of a nice typing experience the majority of the time?
I use a laptop keyboard every so often. It isn't my 1st choice, but for light work it's fine.
I tried the ergodox, but eventually resold it (came from a typematrix). But I like most my Kinesis Advantage 360.
Strangely, I find myself using dictation more and more while working. With a headset on, people don’t notice much since it looks and sound like being in a virtual meeting.
Coding is still best with a keyboard.
I also have a kinesis advantage 2 with some insanely nice switches, but never use it just because of the learning curve.