If anyone is interested in getting into cocktails I really can't recommend Cocktails with Suderman enough. The early posts are free and go into the theory of how cocktails are structured and why they work. Once you start to understand the structure of the major cocktails it makes it a lot easier to understand how you can play with the ingredients and make something new.
For instance, tons of cocktails fall into the "sour" category. They usually have proportions of 2:1:1 or 3:1:1 of a liquor, a sour, and a syrup. If you have rum, lime juice, and simple syrup it's a daiquiri. Swap out the lime juice for lemon juice and the rum for whiskey and you get a whiskey sour. Swap out the simple syrup for honey syrup and you get a Gold Rush. Use tequila, lime juice, and a blend of agave syrup and Cointreau and you have a margarita. Gin, lime, and simple syrup is a gimlet. And so on.
Also, as others have mentioned, the quality of the ingredients and the brands often matter a lot. A Manhattan calls for whiskey, sweet vermouth, and bitters, but the choice of whiskey and vermouth makes a big difference in the character of the drink. (And if you are using old vermouth that has been sitting out on the counter for a few years, or making a drink with bottled lime juice, it's just not going to turn out all that good.)
My second advice would be ice ice ice. A bartender uses copious amounts of ice. It's for a reason. If you make a mojito at home and just chuck two ice cubes in, you will either get waaayyy too much soda in when filling the glass, a too hot drink, too watered down etc.
Avalaxy · 2h ago
> A bartender uses copious amounts of ice. It's for a reason.
$$$$$$$$$
johnisgood · 37m ago
What do you mean by that? In many European countries or cities, ice in your "iced latte" is unheard of.
matsemann · 2h ago
Hehe. But where I'm from (Norway) it's only allowed to serve drinks with 40 cl (edit, I meant 4 cl heh) of liquor (with exceptions for international recognized cocktails). So if you were to get less ice you wouldn't get anything more for your money anyways. Except more soda water and a diluted taste.
Barbing · 2h ago
>40 cl of liquor
RIP all Norwegian drinkers
[typo correction and conversion likely: 4 cl = 40 ml ≈ 1.35 fl oz]
jansan · 1h ago
International recognized cocktails must be quite popular in Norway. I remember when going to Norway for a friend's wedding and they explicitly asked all guests to bring the maximum allowed limit of liquor with them. I understood this after I saw the ridiculous high prices at those liquor stores, which they shamelessly call "wine monopoly" and have higher security than bank buildings. You guys sure have a special relationship with ethanol.
matsemann · 1h ago
Yeah, strict rules. But the Wine Monopoly is great and quite beloved. For more expensive wines/liquors where the alcohol tax is a small amount of the total price, it's actually reasonably priced. The monopoly get good prices due to the volume they purchase of stuff.
And the selection is great. In Denmark for instance, every store has a selection of alcohol, but it's quite limited and always the same everywhere. You have to hunt for specialty stores. But the monopoly has everything even in smaller cities.
elygre · 58m ago
The two revelations of the wine monopoly. The first is «you have a monopoly???», and then later «and you actually like that?????»
jenadine · 8m ago
It is a state owned monopoly, whose purpose is to address the actual problem of too high alcohol consumption, and not necessarily to make profit.
I'm sure not everyone likes it though.
I find it really strange that the IBA list does no longer include the gimlet.
ReptileMan · 4h ago
My rule of thumb for cocktails is - they were created to mask the flavors of shitty base liquors so this is what should be used. The best old fashioned comes from jim beam white label. Unless you use some really strong medicinal smoked whiskeys you probably won't be able to pick up much of the delicate flavors from the good stuff with so much syrup and bitters in it. and if you want to add complexity - just make a more complex syrup.
omnimus · 3h ago
To be fair Jim Beam is not that shitty. It’s cheap but there are way worse bourbons.
kenanfyi · 1h ago
Wasn‘t it Woodford Reserve? I think I never used Jim Beam for an old-fashioned.
8note · 3h ago
you can make cocktails with subtler adjuncts just fine. Tea bases are a bunch of fun
ik_ben_paul · 25m ago
I was surprised to see the Pornstar Martini outside of your Well-Known category, that's a big North America/Europe difference! eg Wikipedia cites a claim it was the most ordered cocktail in the UK a few years ago.
owenversteeg · 9h ago
For those that are getting into cocktails, by far the best piece of advice I can give is: know when the quality of ingredients matter and when they don’t. If it’s a very sugary/salty drink, or people are smoking, or already drunk, most people won’t care, but for a lot of cocktails the ingredients make a massive difference. The best bang for your buck is Carpano Antica, a sweet vermouth with real complexity to it; the worst value is high end vodka.
crystal_revenge · 8h ago
My advice would be: Every cocktail has an unlisted ingredient that makes or breaks the drink - ice water.
Shaking or stirring a cocktail doesn’t just make it colder, it dilutes it as well. Getting this right is very often the difference between a good and bad drink.
I demonstrated this once when a friend complained that it was so hard to get a good cocktail, especially getting good ingredients. All they had in their kitchen was some gin and some other slightly floral novelty liqueur. I just took a spoon and a glass and stirred them something based on the ratios for a martini and they said it was one of the best cocktails they have had!
Balancing chill and dilution, even in more complex drinks, is essential.
A good way to experiment is to make batch chilled cocktails in which case you need to explicitly measure out the water you’re adding.
avanai · 7h ago
The other magic ingredient is salt. A tiny pinch of salt can balance out sour and bitter flavors in surprising ways, and be otherwise undetectable. I’ve “fixed” a lot of cocktails that way.
hattmall · 7h ago
Yeah one thing that makes a huge difference is that you mix your ingredients in the shaker with ice. Then strain and serve over fresh ice if it's called for.
djoldman · 8h ago
I do enjoy Antica.
That being said, IMHO sweet vermouths vary a lot. Enough that I'd pick one over another depending on the cocktail.
yojo · 8h ago
Antica is very particular, IMO. It’s good, but lots of vanilla flavor, which doesn’t work everywhere. Honestly Martini and Rossi is totally adequate, and I wouldn’t bother stepping up until your palette is dialed in.
jen729w · 3h ago
I think anyone could immediately appreciate the difference between a negroni made with Antica vs. Rossi. It's night and day. The Antica lends a far deeper flavour vs. the brash sweetness of the Rossi.
The gin, on the other hand: just get the cheapest stuff you can find. Our go-to was Aldi's store brand.
Campari, of course, has the middle ingredient all stitched up.
azhenley · 9h ago
Do you have a ranked list of items that pay off to spend a bit more versus doesn’t matter?
yojo · 8h ago
General rules for cocktails:
- Avoid the big brands for Tequila and Rum (Cuervo and Bacardi). There are exceptions, but it’s easier to skip.
- Cheap gin can be good or bad. Gordon’s is a reasonable entry. The step up is Beefeater or Tanqueray. There are a bajillion craft gins and you can skip them until you’re ready to go deep.
- Tequila should always say 100% puro de agave on the bottle. If it does not say this, do not buy it.
- Anything that says “straight bourbon” on the bottle is probably fine.
- For scotch, look for single malt (best) or blended malt (acceptable) if you plan on sipping it. For mixers, I like Bank Note or Famous Grouse. Avoid the lower tiers of the big blends (Johnny Walker, Dewars, etc) - they are mostly grain alcohol.
- I don’t have an opinion on Vodka. If you do for some reason want it, Polish brands seem to be the best value (Sobieski, Luksusowa, etc).
- For “rye” look for something bottled in bond. Don’t pick up a Canadian rye unless you know what you’re doing. They are not the same, and most Canadian rye is not good.
- Rum is kind of hard. There are actually very different styles appropriate for different things, and tons of brands at similar price points that can be great or awful. For funk, look for Hamilton pot still, Rum Bar, Wray and Nephew, Doctor Bird, or Smith and Cross. For a cleaner style, look at Plantation 3 star as an entry level.
- always squeeze your own citrus juice (lemon/lime/orange). Orange should not be squeezed ahead of time. Lemon/Lime can be done a few hours before or to order, depending on personal preference.
- skip Rose’s anything (grenadine, cordial, etc).
- Angostura is a great all-around bitter. Add Regan’s Orange bitters and you’re all set unless you want to go deep on the hobby.
I have spent a lot of time in this rabbit hole, happy to answer specific questions.
d3ckard · 1h ago
On vodka: Sobieski is not a good brand and "Luksusowa" is fine, but it's made of potatoes.
Personally, I strongly prefer vodkas made of wheat, they tend to be smoother and sit better (and the hangover is anegdotically less of a problem).
Also, people who think vodka quality doesn't matter clearly never drank a lot of vodka.
scosman · 7h ago
Rye refers to different things in Canada and the US. Canadian Ryes can be excellent, and Canada makes some excellent rye grain whiskey. Don’t sub it in the wrong ingredient assuming it’s equivalent, then claim it’s mostly not good.
yojo · 7h ago
A lot of Canadian Rye uses a lot of grain alcohol. If you pick a bottle at random off the shelf (assuming US market), it’s unlikely to be good.
There are many great Canadian Ryes. But if you’re new to cocktails, odds are against you finding them at your local liquor store, and you probably don’t need them for the drink you’re trying to make. I didn’t mean to disparage the category. Lot 40 and Alberta Dark Horse/Dark Batch have earned their accolades.
mNovak · 8h ago
I'll add to this, there's no reason to buy simple syrup! You can make it in a mug in the microwave in 30s, and it'll hold in the fridge for a while.
And the only counterpoint is pineapple juice, which you should just buy in the can -- it doesn't hold long at all once in air.
yojo · 7h ago
Absolutely make your own syrups! If you add a little bit of alcohol to your simple syrup (I use vodka or a clean rum), you can drastically extend the shelf life.
Honey syrup is even easier to make, just mix 50/50 honey and hot water. Subbing for simple syrup gives interesting results in most drinks.
Grenadine is also super easy - buy a bottle of POM and mix juice 50:50 with sugar. I like to add a little pomegranate molasses (get at a middle-east specialty market) to kick up the flavor, but not necessary.
Re: pineapple. If you are able to press your own pineapple juice you absolutely should, but agree that most people do not have the necessary equipment. Trader Joe’s sells bottles of fresh pressed pineapple juice that is excellent, if you’re fortunate enough to live by one. Otherwise yeah, canned is the way to go.
jaredhallen · 7h ago
Sometimes I just make a Tbsp or two of simple syrup in a shot glass in the microwave. It takes about 10 seconds.
nycdatasci · 8h ago
If the goal is to get drunk, there are lots of cheap ways to do it and it's fine to buy high-fructose-corn-syrup-based "mixers". If you're looking for great cocktails, consider the PDT (Please Don't Tell) book and/or app by Jim Meehan. When his recipes call for lemon juice, you'll be buying and squeezing (do not buy "fresh squeezed lemon juice"). If you want more of a sensory experience, take recipes from the Aviary in Chicago (they also sell a book). Prepare to spend several days preparing each drink.
refactor_master · 8h ago
It's just simple food science really. Cooling things down reduces harshness and complexity. Sweetening things reduces harshness and complexity. So if you're going for something cool and sweet, don't mix it with high end liquors, because you probably won't really notice a big difference.
addaon · 8h ago
#1) Good Maraschino cherries or similar.
terribleperson · 8h ago
Good maraschino cherries are expensive and yet so incredibly good they're absolutely worth it.
The syrup they're in is also incredible.
addaon · 8h ago
I have never poured them into a cereal bowl with whole milk and used a spoon.
Or so I claim.
technothrasher · 8h ago
Amarena Fabbri cherries are my go to for a Manhattan. So much better than even the good Maraschinos.
addaon · 8h ago
Agreed.
bryanlarsen · 8h ago
> worst value is high end vodka.
For mixing, definitely. If you're drinking it straight, the subtle complexity of a good vodka is nice.
miketery · 8h ago
You don’t need to spend anything more than kettle one. It’s a super simple lab process it’s not like whiskey which has a lot of complexity.
mgaunard · 1h ago
People who never had Belvedere or Chopin simply don't know that a vodka shot doesn't have to be a painful experience.
johnisgood · 30m ago
Vodka for some reason has always made me nauseated and it often did result in vomiting. None of the other alcohols have ever made me nauseated or nor made me puke, not even in high, undiluted amounts. So I realized if I do want to get drunk, I cannot go wrong with whiskey.
Maybe there is a vodka that would be different.
mgaunard · 22m ago
Whisky will typically give you a worse experience the day after.
High-grade vodka is about producing a product free of impurities for the cleanest possible flavour. High-grade whisky is about capturing as many impurities as possible (particularly wood and peat) for a more complex flavour.
Barbing · 1h ago
Does this bear out in double-blind tests?
TheBoozyGenius · 8h ago
Finally someone who ''Gets It''.
antonvs · 8h ago
If it's not 100% pure ethanol, are you even a connoisseur?
alex-moon · 2h ago
Since no-one else has mentioned it so far, I wanted to say I appreciated the big warning at the top. As someone who has struggled with (and overcome!) alcohol dependency in the past, having a big reminder that literally says "You should probably stop reading this" shows a sensitivity to the issue I rarely see online.
The other thing I loved about this write-up was the photo of the "best cocktail bar in the world" being the skeeziest, most dangerous looking flat-top you've ever seen. Having known a few bartenders in my life, I am absolutely not surprised that a "bartenders' bar" would look like that.
dcminter · 1h ago
Eh, that's also kind of the East London aesthetic for you. It used to be (maybe 30 years ago) very dodgy and is now (mostly) very hipster.
The Bar Americain which he mentions but doesn't show a picture of, on the other hand, is excellent, slap bang in the middle of Picadilly, and quite opulent. That's great to combine with a meal at the surprisingly cheap (given the location) brasserie Zedel.
dguest · 2h ago
For about 6 months I tried to order a Jack Rose [1]. Only one bartender knew what it was (lime, applejack, and grenadine). And no it's not on this list.
How can I excuse such a pretentious mission? Well someone told me that "The Fine Art of Mixing Drinks" [2] was The Cocktail Bible and a Jack Rose was the thing I'd never heard of. Turns out no one else has either, at least since Hemingway was drinking them in Paris in the 1920s. Funny how things change in 100 years.
But it's actually pretty good: applejack pretty much died out in the US with the prohibition and cheaper liquors, but if you can find cider or calvados it's worth a shot.
Since we are talking cocktails and we are on HN, shout out to Drinkable [1], a mobile app with cocktail recipes, 100% opensource, available on F-Droid as well
Such a fun and entertaining read. I'd never suggest someone give up a software career to become a food writer, but I'd love to read more of OP's writing as he pursues these goals.
aaaronson · 9h ago
Writer of the post here, really appreciate this! When I was really little I did say I wanted to be a food critic when I grew up...
gms · 8h ago
I also found this to be a fun read! Was intending to skim but ended up reading the whole thing. The level of care shines through - nice work.
pragmatick · 5h ago
Hi! I wondered why the Gin Basil Smash is in the column with rare, specialized ingredients? Sounds pretty basic to me, especially compared with the other cocktails in the list.
Yes, the site seems to save the checked cocktails into Local Storage (you can click some, and in your browser's inspection tools you can check. Eg. in Firefox > Inspect > Storage > Local Storage, there's a key with "cocktail-tracker").
I've checked and closing/reopening works (of course locally only, no incognito tabs, etc...)
maest · 9h ago
> First semester that year, I took a Beverage Management class, which was ostensibly about managing bars, but it was no secret that everyone took it because of its tasting component.
Is this breadth of topics common for the American higher educational system or did the author go to a special university?
ordersofmag · 9h ago
At the very largest universities there is a really really wide variety of programs and courses. For example here's a course catalog where a search for 'intro' returns 3500 different courses.
https://classes.osu.edu/#/?q=intro&client=class-search-ui&ca...
You can see the variety, from "Introduction to the Army and Critical Thinking" to "Introductory Meat Science"
This breadth is typical of the very largest universities in the U.S.
hattmall · 6h ago
Yeah, but just to be clear there's only ~1500 classes offered there. The 3000 comes from many of the classes having multiple components, lab etc.
The number is further reduced by the fact that many of them are the same class with special qualifications to ensure placements. For example intro classes for designated transfer students. So you have the same class but 10 seats or something are only available to certain transfer program students.
The real number looks like somewhere in the ~400-600 range. Which is still very impressive but 3500 different intro subjects would be wildly excessive.
mNovak · 6h ago
As an aside if you're in Ohio, the OSU Animal Science lab sells meat raised at the university teaching farms for very good prices [1]
Related to the broader catalogue, I had fun in my Riflery and Table Tennis classes in college.
CEM 482 Science and Technology of Wine Production 3
CHE 483 Brewing and Distilled Beverage Technology 3
FSC 481 Fermented Beverages
xboxnolifes · 8h ago
My university had courses such as wine tasting, beer tasting, and food tasting. Not necessarily a ton of them, but enough that a lot of 4th year students would fill their "free" credit slots with those courses as fun easy As.
While the value of some of these courses is somewhat questionable on their own (hence the old joke about majoring in "Underwater Basket Weaving"), they make a bit more sense as part of a broader program and/or a double-major.
For instance, you might double major in Chemistry, plus Food Science and Nutrition, if you intend to do some work in that industry - or perhaps Business plus Food Science and Nutrition.
Someone with less ambitious college plans might major in Food Science and Nutrition alone and aim for a job as a nutritionist, or a restaurant manager, etc.?
It's also common for people to register for courses like this as a fun or lightweight diversion from "more serious" majors. For instance, MIT offers a course on glassblowing, which counts toward the humanities & arts part of the general curriculum requirements.
aaaronson · 7h ago
Author of the post here, I joke that I could've gotten a minor in Food because, on top of my actual CS major and Linguistics minor, I took Contemporary Nutrition, Grilling & BBQ Science, Beverage Management, and Vegetable Gardening (not to mention Bowling).
soared · 8h ago
Most large university have a few well known courses like this, though I don’t really know the purpose. Every in Boulder wants to take the history of the US through baseball, for example.
hattmall · 6h ago
Most reasonable business schools will have a significant restaurant management / hospitality program.
TheBoozyGenius · 9h ago
The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is something of a "special" university...
mNovak · 6h ago
It's strange to note that a Dirty Martini, probably one of the most popular cocktails in the world, isn't on the IBA list. Likewise I've found many cocktail books also won't deign to list it as a 'real' cocktail. But I'd argue the heritage is the same as a great many now classic prohibition drinks -- adding ingredients to distract from low quality liquors.
I think that's a disservice, and it's worth standardizing; just like many of these, it can be surprisingly hard to get just right.
stouset · 3h ago
Do yourself a favor and use cerignola olives.
mgaunard · 1h ago
The trick to having a good time at a cocktail bar is sitting at the bar and talking to the bartender. Tell him what kind of things you like and he'll be happy to make recommendations and even have you taste some unusual ingredients he recommends for a twist on any of the classics.
There are a lot more good addresses in London than the ones he listed, it's clearly a hot spot worldwide for this kind of thing.
In NYC there are a few good ones as well, but I feel it's below London. It's also a bit too busy.
octo888 · 1h ago
Any particular recommendations for London? I feel a thirst coming on!
mgaunard · 1h ago
Happiness Forgets is one of my favourites for a classic experience.
Discount Suit Company has a cool vibe, a bit more party-like, I remember dancing a few times there (despite it being tiny).
Waltz is a new one that's a bit different, Japanese-style, their creations are quite unique and masterfully delivered.
Shapes is also very popular for some reason, though I don't really see the point of places that only do bottled cocktails.
In Shoreditch and adjacent areas there are many other ones.
octo888 · 59m ago
Thanks :) Happiness Forgets is right next to where I was going to grab some pizza later. Sorted
yellowapple · 3h ago
Reminds me of my go-to bar's "Order 66" club, where you're handed a list of the 60 cocktails they make year-round + 6 "write-in" spots for seasonal cocktails (or maybe it's 56+10 or some other combination; can't remember) and if you order/drink everything on the list within a year you get your name on the wall.
krebby · 8h ago
Such a sweet story! My friend actually went to the author's Borg party a few weeks ago and I'm second-guessing my choices that night after reading this. Funny to see it on Hacker News!
If you guys like reading about this kind of thing I recommend Cocktail Codex from the people behind Death & Co (referenced in the article). It's a great way to think about cocktails as a remixable grammar and the purpose behind all the mixing, muddling, and stirring.
jsbg · 9h ago
my favorite cocktail these days is the bijou, which you can think of as a negroni with green chartreuse instead of campari, and with orange bitters—you wouldn't think chartreuse and italian vermouth would make a good drink but it's fantastic
bonus if garnished with a green olive
jfengel · 9h ago
I'm out of chartreuse. Think it'll work with absinthe?
voxadam · 9h ago
It would be radically different. I love absinthe but there's a special place in my heart for Green Chartreuse.
Damn, now I want a Last Word.
jamestimmins · 9h ago
That'll give you a totally different drink. Chartreuse and absinthe both have strong but different flavors; not to mention that a bijou has 3/4oz of chartreuse but that much absinthe would totally overpower any other ingredient.
p1necone · 9h ago
Chartreuse doesn't really have any good substitutes that I can think of, it's got a very distinct flavour that's nothing like absinthe (I like to lovingly describe it as lawn steeped in everclear).
Still make the drink with absinthe and see how it goes though - it'll taste totally different but it might still be good, and the ABV and (lack of) sweetness of chartreuse and absinthe are at least fairly close.
mkozlows · 9h ago
Genepy is the best substitute. But now that the monks aren't making as much, other subs have popped up.
But definitely not absinthe.
voxadam · 3h ago
In my opinion, Genepy is a decent substitute for Yellow Chartreuse, not so much for Green. Green has a very herbal flavor where yellow tends to be more floral.
whiterook6 · 9h ago
This was a pleasant read. I want a goal like this to try and achieve. Neat!
senjin · 8h ago
I agree! It's really nice to have a goal like this that could take you years to accomplish because you have no deadline. I did the same thing with a list of some of the best scifi [1] over the course of 15 years or so. I would get into a series and read the whole thing before moving on or really get into an author for a while. Some books are the 2nd, 3rd or 5th book in a series (looking at you Murderbot...) so you kind of have to read the preceding books. You could read the whole list in a couple years but it was really nice to work through it really slowly.
Anyway, I think this list of cocktails will be my next long term goal
Missing the dictator.
A bloody marry in a soup coup, with a brainshaped bannana vodka jelloshot in the middle. Decorated with dark chocolate pistols, dark choclate toy soldiers and a stenciled sugarlines looking like cocaine maps on the rim.
Would that (a redecorated bloody mary ) get in the list?
lordleft · 7h ago
I found this to be a pretty charming blog post & an enjoyable read. Does anyone else feel like some of the newer entries in the IBA list seem a bit contrived, maybe to promote a particular type of spirit?
jeffreyrogers · 7h ago
I believe the monkey gland is called that because around the time it was invented there was a surgeon (Serge Voronoff) who was promoting a surgery in which he would implant baboon testicles into men (there was a corresponding surgery for women as well). It was supposed to improve the libido. An early, probably ineffective form of hormone replacement therapy.
Which still sounds super fake to me. It takes a host of modern drugs to prevent rejection when doing human-to-human transplants. I have long odds that monkey tissue would result in anything but a painful, septic death.
As a medical benchmark, penicillin was discovered in 1928.
Edit: I was ignoring the obvious - sham surgery! Just leave a bit of a scar, maybe inject them with some cocaine, and everyone comes out smiling.
wirrbel · 4h ago
Just reading the title.
As a college student the premise of screening through the cocktail menu would have sounded like a great project.
As a 30 something I am more interested of drinking my way through the mocktail menu.
b_e_n_t_o_n · 9h ago
Hah. What a great idea for a side quest. Still tempted to try to speed run it though. I reckon in a place like NYC or London you could get it done in a week easy :D
gammarator · 9h ago
I’m surprised the author didn’t try to make more at home! Personally I’m a fan of the apps at https://mixologytech.com/, especially “Modern Classics.”
zem · 9h ago
surprised the white lady is in the obscure category, it's a delightful cocktail with common ingredients and a simple recipe. highly recommend trying it, it's one of my go-to cocktails to make at home.
drcode · 9h ago
> Incidentally, my 24th birthday was quickly approaching
What would have been hilarious is if he had said "my 14th birthday was quickly approaching" at this point in the post
TheBoozyGenius · 9h ago
This would've made me R-O-F-L.
Jeremy1026 · 10h ago
So, looks like you narrowed down your favorite to either the Porto Flip or the Rabo de Galo. If you had to pick one, which would you say is your favorite?
aaaronson · 9h ago
They're so different and hard to compare, but considering I've had three rabo de galos now and loved them every time, I'm leaning in that direction
tekknolagi · 5h ago
Excellent subtitle "let's have a tiki". Great joke
tpm · 1h ago
Oh, no sgroppino? I'm the trendsetter again it seems.
imustachyou · 10h ago
Very fun! Would love to see a tier list to start checking off myself, and maybe a caption for the pictures
BSOhealth · 9h ago
Very cool motivation around personal “lists” generally!
Gin took me the longest to “get” and subtle cocktails that play to its strengths seem to have had the most lasting appeal.
Whiskey drinks are great but I’d usually just rather have a nice whiskey straight, versus diluted with sugar. Whiskey+wine has some good combos.
Likewise with tequila.
Rum/rhum I still don’t get the sipping side, so cocktails is still the go-to there. A splash of nice white wine+rum has been a recent successful experiment.
Vodka… well what’s the point?
shagie · 9h ago
While its a "you really should have it straight..."
One of the things that I've found is various advent calendars of a given type or theme of spirit. I've had three different ones for gin (several different ways to approach it) and I've found great variety in them while maintaining an amount of "yep, that's gin."
There are subtle gins and not so subtle gins. The one that was the least subtle was Hepple Gin ( https://theginisin.com/gin-reviews/hepple-gin/ ) which if you notice on that chart has a very high juniper flavor profile.
> The nose is delicately spicy with lots of juniper. Green, piney-juniper, fir branch, with a bit of citrus tinged herbal notes beneath it.
I also had a South American gin... which was "ok, instead of old world botanicals and base, new world." It was gin... but it certainly wasn't London gin.
If I had to have a gin gin, moonshot was my favorite.
If you're curious about it... in September start looking for them.
gleenn · 9h ago
I was in the same boat about sipping rum not being very interesting until I found Zacapa Guatemalan rum. It's relatively common and reasonably priced and very delicious coming from someone who likes whiskey neat and also many cocktails. If you wanna feont the cash for the Zacapa XO for ~$125+/bottle then you are in for an amazing treat.
b_e_n_t_o_n · 9h ago
Vodka is for adding to juice or simple drinks (oj, cranberry, lemonade etc), and when you don't want to muddle up the flavour of something else. Or for shots of course :)
Nursie · 8h ago
> Rum/rhum I still don’t get the sipping side
There's a vast variety and some is great, some not so much. There are very sweet, delicious rums like Diplomatico Reserva Exclusiva, which is tasty but a little bit on the syrupy side. Then there are delicious but less sweet rums like Appleton Estate, Flor de Cana, Havana Club, Mount Gay, El Dorado etc. Ron Zacapa is very sippable too, and very approachable, and I think their solera 23 makes a really good entry point to the 'genre'.
As with whisky, the older the rum, the more complex and in general 'better' they tend to be, and the various 'XO' versions of Zacapa etc are more refined again.
I prefer to stick to the bigger names like those above, which is not to say there aren't good rums from newer or smaller places, but if you're just starting out these are some good, solid makers to begin to develop your palate. I guess a bit like recommending someone start an exploration of Scotch with a taste of Ardbeg, Highland Park, Macallan etc - get to know the big names a little before you experiment.
Spiced rums can be delicious sipped, but the cheaper end of the market often use their flavouring to mask a poor underlying spirit. See Sailor Jerry, Kraken, and other highly-flavoured rums like Pink Pigeon. Bumbu is good though and (surprisingly?) so is Captain Morgans Private Stock. I generally stay away from anything else labelled Captain Morgan. Purists will argue that any/all spiced rums are not really rum, because they are flavoured and almost all are heavily sweetened and so should be called 'rum liqueur'. It's not an argument I'd like to partake in particularly.
Avoid white rums unless mixing, IMHO. Anything claiming to be Navy rum is probably a bit rough (I'm not a fan of Pussers). And stay away from "Stroh 80", that stuff tastes like burning tyres.
I don't really drink rum any more, but when I did ... I drank all the rums!
microtherion · 1h ago
A few years ago, I discovered Rhum agricole (Made directly from freshly squeezed sugarcane, instead of molasses), and it's my preference now.
psalaun · 7h ago
Longueteau white rhums can be sipped, they are very floral. Taste like pure fresh sugar cane, without the sweet side. Their 62° is great for ti'punch.
dluan · 7h ago
Generally with rum, you have to be wary of undisclosed dosing. Spanish distilleries are the worst with this, but even Plantaray (fka Plantation) does this. Single barrels from reputable producers will give you good results.
ramses0 · 8h ago
Check TheGinIsIn.com to learn why you like your favorite. So much dramatic variety in gin styles!
Are you able to be classified as "having a problem with alcohol" if you "only have 2 drinks a night" a lot?
rpmisms · 9h ago
Can you skip a night and not miss it, and does it negatively affect your life? If there's no ill effects and you're not dependent, I don't see a problem.
shpongled · 9h ago
I think you cropped out the important part of the quote:
> It’s rare that I have more than a drink or two in one night.
I don't drink that often any more, but 2-3 drinks in a night, done occasionally is not a problem. I've had weeks where I drink a beer (or two!) every night, and also don't struggle with any alcohol problems.
2 drinks every single night? Leaning that way - and not great for you just from a health/caloric perspective.
Jtsummers · 9h ago
I always wonder why people would make such obvious selective edits that completely change the meaning of a sentence and quote it as if it was what the author intended.
Do they not think people will notice? Or do they not notice that they've even done it?
TheBoozyGenius · 9h ago
Maybe they got really excited while reading...
plorkyeran · 6h ago
1-2 drinks every night (which is not what the author said they were doing there) can be anywhere from not a problem at all to high-functioning alcoholic. I think the simplest way to tell where on the gradient someone is is how they handle a night where they don't get a chance to have a drink. Is it something that's not remotely a problem and they wouldn't even realize it was the first night in a while they hadn't had a drink? Is it something that bothers them but they'll deal with it? Is the idea unthinkable and they always have alcohol on them so that they can sneak a sip even in circumstances where it's inappropriate?
samdoesnothing · 8h ago
Given that there are a ton of people having ~2 drinks a night (big glass of wine, couplabeers, generous pour of whisky), especially in Europe, I can't see 2 drinks a night as someone having a "problem". It's not nearly enough to get drunk so they're simply enjoying the taste/experience. It's like asking if someone who eats a chocolate bar every day has a problem.
ReptileMan · 4h ago
Depends. In Easter Europe this classifies you as the designated driver.
stronglikedan · 9h ago
Can't know just from that one data point. A "problem with alcohol" is a lack of self control, like, if you're social and have dinner out with friends most nights a week, do you feel compelled to have a couple drinks on nights you're home doing nothing in particular.
samdoesnothing · 8h ago
Having just a couple of drinks is hardly a lack of self control. The whole bottle or 6 pack on the other hand...
alexjplant · 6h ago
It depends on your parasympathetic nervous system tone. After getting a fitness tracker that analyzes sleep and heart rate variability I've discovered that my body is rather sensitive to alcohol. I need to have a baseline level of cardiovascular endurance and be properly hydrated with good electrolyte balance to be able to truly enjoy two drinks. If I'm not doing moderate-intensity cardio five times a week and taking my supplements, then even moderate boozing will tank my HRV and negatively affect my sleep. Bad sleep means diminished cognitive performance and lethargy to the point that I'm not giving the world the best version of myself. To answer your question: yes, if I'm having two drinks a night and not taking care of myself I'd consider that to be a problem. A lot of people are probably in a similar boat but don't have the data to spot it so they just keep wearing themselves down in a half-tired haze.
I've also discovered that brown liquors are twice as bad for me in this regard so I now try to stick to wine, sake, or gin. I'm not mad at this as I've grown rather tired of what bourbon culture has seemingly become... the capitalization, enshittification and marketing games have largely put me off from the category.
bravesoul2 · 9h ago
Damn I thought it was going to be https://scottaaronson.blog/ and wondered what cocktail was an analogy for, or if he just had a fine night out.
getup8 · 9h ago
I had a similar obsession with cocktails starting in 2019 after moving out of NYC and missing it. So I started making my way through the Death & Company book and it inspired https://www.cocktaillove.com to keep track of everything and know what I could actually make given the ingredients on hand. It’s been a fun side project ever since, and I’ve made a little over 200 (and photographed them all) so far.
mNovak · 6h ago
These are your photography? Looks very nice!
addaon · 9h ago
Did you, though? Many great cocktails (including ones on the IBA list) are really show cases of a very specific liqueur or spirit... and when that product dies, you may have something similar, or something inspired by, or something attempting to recreate... but you haven't had the classic cocktail. For example, unless you stir up a new-old-stock bottle of Kina Lillet (and its flavor has held up over time), I'd argue that you haven't had a Vesper.
microtherion · 53m ago
I sort of understand the motivation to get the exact flavor of the cocktail recipe (especially with an ingredient like Kina Lillet), but for the most part, I find ingredients specified by brand name somewhat annoying, especially for home bars.
RajT88 · 9h ago
Lillet Blanc is supposed to be the closest you can get. But admittedly, it is likely different.
I would bet there are some DIY infusions out there which nail it though.
addaon · 9h ago
I think most would consider Cocchi Americano much closer than Lillet Blanc -- modern Lillet has basically no bitterness. But that's rather the point, and at some level, the challenge -- a cocktail is designed around and balanced around its ingredients, so when you change one, you have to rebalance it. For a showcase cocktail like a Vesper, I'd consider that a new cocktail -- in the same way that an Aperol Negroni is not a Negroni. And when making a non-showcase cocktail with spirits called out by family, your job is to balance around the selected ingredients. A Woodford + Carpano Antica Manhattan is not going to optimize at the same ratio as a Basil Haden + Dolin Rouge Manhattan, for example.
BSOhealth · 9h ago
I get the downvotes, kind of omitting his qualification in the very first sentence.
but if this really interests you it seems like an obvious opportunity for something like “the 102 impossible drinks” or something. figure out the DIY recipes and go to YT
addaon · 8h ago
> his qualification
Are you referring to "every" cocktail meaning "every IBA" cocktail? No complaints there, that's just headline writing.
But there's a reason I called out the Vesper -- it's on the list! And I'd argue it's the cocktail on the list that, most obviously, no one can make today. It's not a cocktail that allows creativity or substitution in its ingredients -- it's specifically a showcase of Kina Lillet -- and its key ingredient isn't available today. The correct response to someone ordering a Vesper should be "I can't make you that, but maybe you'd like a <something related>." (Or, honestly, "meh, we can do better than that" -- it's a mediocre cocktail at best, but that's not the point.)
For instance, tons of cocktails fall into the "sour" category. They usually have proportions of 2:1:1 or 3:1:1 of a liquor, a sour, and a syrup. If you have rum, lime juice, and simple syrup it's a daiquiri. Swap out the lime juice for lemon juice and the rum for whiskey and you get a whiskey sour. Swap out the simple syrup for honey syrup and you get a Gold Rush. Use tequila, lime juice, and a blend of agave syrup and Cointreau and you have a margarita. Gin, lime, and simple syrup is a gimlet. And so on.
Also, as others have mentioned, the quality of the ingredients and the brands often matter a lot. A Manhattan calls for whiskey, sweet vermouth, and bitters, but the choice of whiskey and vermouth makes a big difference in the character of the drink. (And if you are using old vermouth that has been sitting out on the counter for a few years, or making a drink with bottled lime juice, it's just not going to turn out all that good.)
https://cocktailswithsuderman.substack.com/
$$$$$$$$$
RIP all Norwegian drinkers
[typo correction and conversion likely: 4 cl = 40 ml ≈ 1.35 fl oz]
And the selection is great. In Denmark for instance, every store has a selection of alcohol, but it's quite limited and always the same everywhere. You have to hunt for specialty stores. But the monopoly has everything even in smaller cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinmonopolet
Shaking or stirring a cocktail doesn’t just make it colder, it dilutes it as well. Getting this right is very often the difference between a good and bad drink.
I demonstrated this once when a friend complained that it was so hard to get a good cocktail, especially getting good ingredients. All they had in their kitchen was some gin and some other slightly floral novelty liqueur. I just took a spoon and a glass and stirred them something based on the ratios for a martini and they said it was one of the best cocktails they have had!
Balancing chill and dilution, even in more complex drinks, is essential.
A good way to experiment is to make batch chilled cocktails in which case you need to explicitly measure out the water you’re adding.
That being said, IMHO sweet vermouths vary a lot. Enough that I'd pick one over another depending on the cocktail.
The gin, on the other hand: just get the cheapest stuff you can find. Our go-to was Aldi's store brand.
Campari, of course, has the middle ingredient all stitched up.
- Avoid the big brands for Tequila and Rum (Cuervo and Bacardi). There are exceptions, but it’s easier to skip.
- Cheap gin can be good or bad. Gordon’s is a reasonable entry. The step up is Beefeater or Tanqueray. There are a bajillion craft gins and you can skip them until you’re ready to go deep.
- Tequila should always say 100% puro de agave on the bottle. If it does not say this, do not buy it.
- Anything that says “straight bourbon” on the bottle is probably fine.
- For scotch, look for single malt (best) or blended malt (acceptable) if you plan on sipping it. For mixers, I like Bank Note or Famous Grouse. Avoid the lower tiers of the big blends (Johnny Walker, Dewars, etc) - they are mostly grain alcohol.
- I don’t have an opinion on Vodka. If you do for some reason want it, Polish brands seem to be the best value (Sobieski, Luksusowa, etc).
- For “rye” look for something bottled in bond. Don’t pick up a Canadian rye unless you know what you’re doing. They are not the same, and most Canadian rye is not good.
- Rum is kind of hard. There are actually very different styles appropriate for different things, and tons of brands at similar price points that can be great or awful. For funk, look for Hamilton pot still, Rum Bar, Wray and Nephew, Doctor Bird, or Smith and Cross. For a cleaner style, look at Plantation 3 star as an entry level.
- always squeeze your own citrus juice (lemon/lime/orange). Orange should not be squeezed ahead of time. Lemon/Lime can be done a few hours before or to order, depending on personal preference.
- skip Rose’s anything (grenadine, cordial, etc).
- Angostura is a great all-around bitter. Add Regan’s Orange bitters and you’re all set unless you want to go deep on the hobby.
I have spent a lot of time in this rabbit hole, happy to answer specific questions.
Personally, I strongly prefer vodkas made of wheat, they tend to be smoother and sit better (and the hangover is anegdotically less of a problem).
Also, people who think vodka quality doesn't matter clearly never drank a lot of vodka.
There are many great Canadian Ryes. But if you’re new to cocktails, odds are against you finding them at your local liquor store, and you probably don’t need them for the drink you’re trying to make. I didn’t mean to disparage the category. Lot 40 and Alberta Dark Horse/Dark Batch have earned their accolades.
And the only counterpoint is pineapple juice, which you should just buy in the can -- it doesn't hold long at all once in air.
Honey syrup is even easier to make, just mix 50/50 honey and hot water. Subbing for simple syrup gives interesting results in most drinks.
Grenadine is also super easy - buy a bottle of POM and mix juice 50:50 with sugar. I like to add a little pomegranate molasses (get at a middle-east specialty market) to kick up the flavor, but not necessary.
Re: pineapple. If you are able to press your own pineapple juice you absolutely should, but agree that most people do not have the necessary equipment. Trader Joe’s sells bottles of fresh pressed pineapple juice that is excellent, if you’re fortunate enough to live by one. Otherwise yeah, canned is the way to go.
The syrup they're in is also incredible.
Or so I claim.
For mixing, definitely. If you're drinking it straight, the subtle complexity of a good vodka is nice.
Maybe there is a vodka that would be different.
High-grade vodka is about producing a product free of impurities for the cleanest possible flavour. High-grade whisky is about capturing as many impurities as possible (particularly wood and peat) for a more complex flavour.
The other thing I loved about this write-up was the photo of the "best cocktail bar in the world" being the skeeziest, most dangerous looking flat-top you've ever seen. Having known a few bartenders in my life, I am absolutely not surprised that a "bartenders' bar" would look like that.
The Bar Americain which he mentions but doesn't show a picture of, on the other hand, is excellent, slap bang in the middle of Picadilly, and quite opulent. That's great to combine with a meal at the surprisingly cheap (given the location) brasserie Zedel.
How can I excuse such a pretentious mission? Well someone told me that "The Fine Art of Mixing Drinks" [2] was The Cocktail Bible and a Jack Rose was the thing I'd never heard of. Turns out no one else has either, at least since Hemingway was drinking them in Paris in the 1920s. Funny how things change in 100 years.
But it's actually pretty good: applejack pretty much died out in the US with the prohibition and cheaper liquors, but if you can find cider or calvados it's worth a shot.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Rose_(cocktail)
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fine_Art_of_Mixing_Drinks
[1] https://github.com/MOIMOB/drinkable
I've checked and closing/reopening works (of course locally only, no incognito tabs, etc...)
Is this breadth of topics common for the American higher educational system or did the author go to a special university?
This breadth is typical of the very largest universities in the U.S.
The number is further reduced by the fact that many of them are the same class with special qualifications to ensure placements. For example intro classes for designated transfer students. So you have the same class but 10 seats or something are only available to certain transfer program students.
The real number looks like somewhere in the ~400-600 range. Which is still very impressive but 3500 different intro subjects would be wildly excessive.
Related to the broader catalogue, I had fun in my Riflery and Table Tennis classes in college.
[1] https://ansci.osu.edu/about-us/facilities/sales
It requires all the following courses:
While the value of some of these courses is somewhat questionable on their own (hence the old joke about majoring in "Underwater Basket Weaving"), they make a bit more sense as part of a broader program and/or a double-major.
For instance, you might double major in Chemistry, plus Food Science and Nutrition, if you intend to do some work in that industry - or perhaps Business plus Food Science and Nutrition.
Someone with less ambitious college plans might major in Food Science and Nutrition alone and aim for a job as a nutritionist, or a restaurant manager, etc.?
It's also common for people to register for courses like this as a fun or lightweight diversion from "more serious" majors. For instance, MIT offers a course on glassblowing, which counts toward the humanities & arts part of the general curriculum requirements.
I think that's a disservice, and it's worth standardizing; just like many of these, it can be surprisingly hard to get just right.
There are a lot more good addresses in London than the ones he listed, it's clearly a hot spot worldwide for this kind of thing.
In NYC there are a few good ones as well, but I feel it's below London. It's also a bit too busy.
Discount Suit Company has a cool vibe, a bit more party-like, I remember dancing a few times there (despite it being tiny).
Waltz is a new one that's a bit different, Japanese-style, their creations are quite unique and masterfully delivered.
Shapes is also very popular for some reason, though I don't really see the point of places that only do bottled cocktails.
In Shoreditch and adjacent areas there are many other ones.
If you guys like reading about this kind of thing I recommend Cocktail Codex from the people behind Death & Co (referenced in the article). It's a great way to think about cocktails as a remixable grammar and the purpose behind all the mixing, muddling, and stirring.
bonus if garnished with a green olive
Damn, now I want a Last Word.
Still make the drink with absinthe and see how it goes though - it'll taste totally different but it might still be good, and the ABV and (lack of) sweetness of chartreuse and absinthe are at least fairly close.
But definitely not absinthe.
Anyway, I think this list of cocktails will be my next long term goal
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_joint_winners_of_the_H...
Would that (a redecorated bloody mary ) get in the list?
Which still sounds super fake to me. It takes a host of modern drugs to prevent rejection when doing human-to-human transplants. I have long odds that monkey tissue would result in anything but a painful, septic death.
As a medical benchmark, penicillin was discovered in 1928.
Edit: I was ignoring the obvious - sham surgery! Just leave a bit of a scar, maybe inject them with some cocaine, and everyone comes out smiling.
As a college student the premise of screening through the cocktail menu would have sounded like a great project.
As a 30 something I am more interested of drinking my way through the mocktail menu.
What would have been hilarious is if he had said "my 14th birthday was quickly approaching" at this point in the post
Gin took me the longest to “get” and subtle cocktails that play to its strengths seem to have had the most lasting appeal.
Whiskey drinks are great but I’d usually just rather have a nice whiskey straight, versus diluted with sugar. Whiskey+wine has some good combos.
Likewise with tequila.
Rum/rhum I still don’t get the sipping side, so cocktails is still the go-to there. A splash of nice white wine+rum has been a recent successful experiment.
Vodka… well what’s the point?
One of the things that I've found is various advent calendars of a given type or theme of spirit. I've had three different ones for gin (several different ways to approach it) and I've found great variety in them while maintaining an amount of "yep, that's gin."
There are subtle gins and not so subtle gins. The one that was the least subtle was Hepple Gin ( https://theginisin.com/gin-reviews/hepple-gin/ ) which if you notice on that chart has a very high juniper flavor profile.
> The nose is delicately spicy with lots of juniper. Green, piney-juniper, fir branch, with a bit of citrus tinged herbal notes beneath it.
https://hepplespirits.com/products/hepple-gin - note the equipment for the process.
I also had a South American gin... which was "ok, instead of old world botanicals and base, new world." It was gin... but it certainly wasn't London gin.
If I had to have a gin gin, moonshot was my favorite.
If you're curious about it... in September start looking for them.
There's a vast variety and some is great, some not so much. There are very sweet, delicious rums like Diplomatico Reserva Exclusiva, which is tasty but a little bit on the syrupy side. Then there are delicious but less sweet rums like Appleton Estate, Flor de Cana, Havana Club, Mount Gay, El Dorado etc. Ron Zacapa is very sippable too, and very approachable, and I think their solera 23 makes a really good entry point to the 'genre'.
As with whisky, the older the rum, the more complex and in general 'better' they tend to be, and the various 'XO' versions of Zacapa etc are more refined again.
I prefer to stick to the bigger names like those above, which is not to say there aren't good rums from newer or smaller places, but if you're just starting out these are some good, solid makers to begin to develop your palate. I guess a bit like recommending someone start an exploration of Scotch with a taste of Ardbeg, Highland Park, Macallan etc - get to know the big names a little before you experiment.
Spiced rums can be delicious sipped, but the cheaper end of the market often use their flavouring to mask a poor underlying spirit. See Sailor Jerry, Kraken, and other highly-flavoured rums like Pink Pigeon. Bumbu is good though and (surprisingly?) so is Captain Morgans Private Stock. I generally stay away from anything else labelled Captain Morgan. Purists will argue that any/all spiced rums are not really rum, because they are flavoured and almost all are heavily sweetened and so should be called 'rum liqueur'. It's not an argument I'd like to partake in particularly.
Avoid white rums unless mixing, IMHO. Anything claiming to be Navy rum is probably a bit rough (I'm not a fan of Pussers). And stay away from "Stroh 80", that stuff tastes like burning tyres.
I don't really drink rum any more, but when I did ... I drank all the rums!
I'm curious the opinion of those here on this.
Are you able to be classified as "having a problem with alcohol" if you "only have 2 drinks a night" a lot?
> It’s rare that I have more than a drink or two in one night.
I don't drink that often any more, but 2-3 drinks in a night, done occasionally is not a problem. I've had weeks where I drink a beer (or two!) every night, and also don't struggle with any alcohol problems.
2 drinks every single night? Leaning that way - and not great for you just from a health/caloric perspective.
Do they not think people will notice? Or do they not notice that they've even done it?
I've also discovered that brown liquors are twice as bad for me in this regard so I now try to stick to wine, sake, or gin. I'm not mad at this as I've grown rather tired of what bourbon culture has seemingly become... the capitalization, enshittification and marketing games have largely put me off from the category.
I would bet there are some DIY infusions out there which nail it though.
but if this really interests you it seems like an obvious opportunity for something like “the 102 impossible drinks” or something. figure out the DIY recipes and go to YT
Are you referring to "every" cocktail meaning "every IBA" cocktail? No complaints there, that's just headline writing.
But there's a reason I called out the Vesper -- it's on the list! And I'd argue it's the cocktail on the list that, most obviously, no one can make today. It's not a cocktail that allows creativity or substitution in its ingredients -- it's specifically a showcase of Kina Lillet -- and its key ingredient isn't available today. The correct response to someone ordering a Vesper should be "I can't make you that, but maybe you'd like a <something related>." (Or, honestly, "meh, we can do better than that" -- it's a mediocre cocktail at best, but that's not the point.)
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