When an optometrist chose to file a claim against my medical insurance (which did not pay) rather than my vision insurance (which would), the only way I was able to get them to fix it was by filing a complaint with the BBB. Multiple calls with customer service only resulted in "there is nothing we can do to change it", but somehow they figured out how to fix it when they got the BBB complaint letter.
How else can private citizens keep businesses honest? Complaining on the internet only works if you have lots of followers.
decimalenough · 2h ago
> How else can private citizens keep businesses honest?
I know this was a rhetorical question, but in many countries there is some type of Fair Trading Office, meaning a government body with power to adjudicate consumer complaints about businesses and the legal teeth to enforce its judgements.
charlesabarnes · 5h ago
The BBB complaints list is a glorified internet post. It's not keeping a business any more honest than posting a review on Google or Yelp.
izacus · 2h ago
The person you're responding to literally claims otherwise. Are you calling them a liar or do you have something to substantiate your claims?
jerbearito · 2h ago
I don't understand why they need to "substantiate" their opinion, but the commenter they're replying to wouldn't need to substantiate their anecdotal evidence. They can "literally" claim anything.
I do think Mindless2112's experience is common with larger businesses, making the BBB potentially more effective in those cases than online review sites like Google or Yelp. Also, do those sites send complaint letters? I don't know.
elashri · 1h ago
There is a miles of difference between providing one specific claim based on experience that does not claim that this happens with all businesses. Vs the other claim that BBB complaints doesn't work and is no more than a glorified lists in general.
anton-c · 2h ago
They mean inherently I think. As in it doesn't enforce any "better business" practices. The only threat is public shaming through them. But they themselves won't actually solve it.
kstrauser · 5h ago
That’s exactly right. BBB is Yelp for boomers, and that’s it. I’ve heard plenty of older family and acquaintances wave it around like a weapon: “if they don’t honor my (ridiculous) request, I’ll sic the BBB on them!” And then… what? I’m sure someone, somewhere checks BBB before doing business with a company, but I’ve never personally seen someone do it, and without that feedback loop, the BBB is just another private review site with zero teeth.
TeMPOraL · 3h ago
People don't look businesses up on Facebook or X much here either, and yet many times I've witnessed my SO break through being stonewalled by some business with just a simple line, delivered in calm voice: "okay, I'll take it to Facebook, we'll see if you like a drama there" (or "X" more recently). Just like that, 90% success rate, and no actual public drama on social media.
Don't know how that works. It's Poland, approximately nobody here even used Twitter, nor do they use X - and yet, businesses big and small seem super sensitive to that.
forgotoldacc · 4h ago
I think a lot of older people really thought the BBB was an arm of the government and had power to enforce things.
kstrauser · 3h ago
I think they were clever with the name “Bureau”. It has a connotation of officialness, like “Agency” or “Administration”.
firesteelrain · 2h ago
You can still hear on the local news here: “Or you can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.”
drdeadringer · 4h ago
Speaking for myself, I know that I have never looked up a business for BBB accreditation. (I am 43 and a half).
Yelp reviews, TripAdvisor, Google reviews, yes.
And as honestly never crossed my mind to check with BBB about anything.
But I haven't done any major purchasing like with property, land, or similar.
kstrauser · 4h ago
I’m a bit older than you, but same. I’ve bought property and land, and it never occurred to me to check BBB for anything, ever. I know it’s a thing that exists, and that’s about the extent of it.
bigmattystyles · 4h ago
And in the same vein, yelp is bbb for millennials.
kstrauser · 4h ago
No argument from me on that one. The main difference is that I’ve actually steered away from businesses with bad Yelp reviews.
42lux · 32m ago
Small claims usually works quite well.
tptacek · 5h ago
The shadiness of the BBB has come up here before; for instance:
My interaction with a Chicago hotel with hidden exorbitant fees was useless with the BBB, but gained traction with the state attorney general.
Carving overcharges back is a pleasant thing.
EvanAnderson · 3h ago
Once I learned how the BBB worked I regarded them as a kind of bizarre quasi-voluntary protection racket. I wish more people knew about it.
oakwhiz · 3h ago
I recall paid BBB propaganda being allowed into some schools. Essentially the BBB donates to high school business classes and in return the educators explain it to students but without criticism.
hcfman · 3h ago
How did BBB ever get a business off the ground based on paid for acceditation???
Were they just smooth talkers?
creshal · 3h ago
Yes, same as all the other pay to win "certification" companies.
daft_pink · 3h ago
BBB is essentially only a negative indicator in that if a business has a terrible BBB reputation, they are probably terrible, but Accreditation or any positive status from the BBB means nothing.
ElijahLynn · 5h ago
There used to be a site many years ago called Bad Business Bureau. And there was a listing for the BBB, "Better Business Bureau", and it was full of complaints. Complaints you would never see on BBB's own website.
drdeadringer · 4h ago
In partial jest, has BBB been known to accreditate themselves?
(A blatantly obvious silicon valley TV show reference)
jedberg · 3h ago
The BBB used to work so well because most people thought they were a government agency. The thought a complaint to the BBB came with actual penalties.
Now a lot more people know that they are basically just the first version of Yelp.
vouaobrasil · 5h ago
Honestly, BBB means nothing to me. I see it and I shrug. Reviews, checking the business out yourself, and using a dozen other cues are more useful than BBB.
adamtaylor_13 · 5h ago
It’s funny I’ve had to opposite experience as a consumer. I’ve had companies who couldn’t give a single shit finally respond when I left a BBB review.
So I’ve always taken this as a sign of quality. Clearly though, that’s not always the case.
unixhero · 5h ago
Sounds like a thing of the past
Onavo · 5h ago
Nah there's a whole multi billion dollar business of trust building review services. Trustpilot, Travel Advisor, G2/Captera/various enterprise SaaS review sites. It's a big business and you are probably not the target audience if you have actual domain knowledge.
komali2 · 5h ago
Reminds me when I mentioned to my friend's Grandpa that I get AAA just cause I need an IDP and he went onto this big tangent about how he's been a "proud card-carrying AAA member for 40 years" or some such, talked about it like it was a club, he'd meet other members for dinners and whatnot.
I think America was basically a different country before the 90s.
bot403 · 2h ago
You don't even need to be a member. Just walk in, show your driver's license, pay $20 or so and walk out with your international drivers permit.
kstrauser · 4h ago
What’s IDP in the context of roadside service insurance?
AnonHP · 4h ago
Not GP. One of the things that AAA makes easy is getting an IDP, which is not related to roadside assistance (or vehicle insurance).
IDP is “International Driving Permit”, which is a booklet that certifies that the person has a driving license in <country> for <class of vehicles>. It includes the photo of the person and the date of birth. It includes translation in various languages so that when you’re in another country and rent a vehicle (or drive one) and the police (or enforcers) need to check if you have a valid license, you can show this (as well as your original license, if asked for). Anecdotally, I’ve heard that the process to get it through AAA seems quicker and easier than from the DMV.
niij · 4h ago
> Anecdotally, I’ve heard that the process to get it through AAA seems quicker and easier than from the DMV.
You heard right, but that's because you won't get one at all from the any state DMV. The AAA is the only authorized entity allowed to issue IDPs in the USA. I wish I was making it up, because I'd rather go to my (excellent) DMV office than across town.
It's easier than going to an AAA office. Slightly more expensive but worth it. They mail it to you quite quickly.
matwood · 4h ago
I wasn't even aware you could get them at the DNV. I've always gone to AAA to get one. They have always seemed like a bit of a scam to me since anytime I've been stopped in a foreign country the police have been more interested in my passport and actual drivers license.
sampullman · 4h ago
Depending on the country, there might be a reciprocal agreement that allows driving with your state license.
I've been a few places where that's the case, and a couple others where the car rental place actually validated the IDP.
komali2 · 1h ago
Random note just cause people are looking - if you do get your IDP, make sure to get the stamp for your certs (e.g., car, motorcycle, whatever) on EVERY page of the AAA IDP, for every language. My friend's plans for a motorcycle trip in Japan with us were shot when he showed up and there was a stamp missing from the Arabic page or some such, and the Japanese rental agency was insistent on the IDP looking exactly as it's supposed to per their SOP, and refused to rent to him, even though there was the correct stamp on the Japanese page.
When I got my IDP next year they only stamped the english page and I asked them to stamp all the pages, the AAA people pushed back and said it's not necessary. I shared my story about no, it really is, and they pushed back more. I said I really need to get all my stamps or I need my money back, since the IDP is useless to me without all the stamps (this is after I was no longer a AAA number) and the lady finally rolled her eyes and stamped it.
kstrauser · 4h ago
Oh! Today I learned, thanks! I didn’t even know that was a thing. Would you need that for renting a car in another country?
decimalenough · 2h ago
Depends very much on the country. Many countries don't care, some like Japan will absolutely refuse to let you drive a car without one.
And it has to be the correct flavor of IDP too, meaning proper 1949 Geneva Convention on proper 1940s cardboard, none of that new-fangled 1969 Vienna Convention nonsense. Oh, your country has signed up to 1969 but not 1949? No car in Japan for you then.
matwood · 4h ago
Oddly enough, no car rental place has ever checked. Supposedly the police care, but I haven't seen much evidence of that either. Given they only cost $25, I keep one with me anyway.
kstrauser · 4h ago
Fair enough. If you’ve already jumped through the hoops of getting a passport, that’s a trivial extra expense. Use it one time ever and you’d be pretty happy to have spent it.
jjcob · 4h ago
Maybe International Driving Permit? Our local version of AAA issues them, but you don't have to be a member.
david38 · 4h ago
It was. I remember taking road trips with the assumption that our destination location would be a very different place. Different accent, styles, restaurants, overall feel.
How else can private citizens keep businesses honest? Complaining on the internet only works if you have lots of followers.
I know this was a rhetorical question, but in many countries there is some type of Fair Trading Office, meaning a government body with power to adjudicate consumer complaints about businesses and the legal teeth to enforce its judgements.
I do think Mindless2112's experience is common with larger businesses, making the BBB potentially more effective in those cases than online review sites like Google or Yelp. Also, do those sites send complaint letters? I don't know.
Don't know how that works. It's Poland, approximately nobody here even used Twitter, nor do they use X - and yet, businesses big and small seem super sensitive to that.
Yelp reviews, TripAdvisor, Google reviews, yes.
And as honestly never crossed my mind to check with BBB about anything.
But I haven't done any major purchasing like with property, land, or similar.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3067731
Carving overcharges back is a pleasant thing.
Were they just smooth talkers?
(A blatantly obvious silicon valley TV show reference)
Now a lot more people know that they are basically just the first version of Yelp.
So I’ve always taken this as a sign of quality. Clearly though, that’s not always the case.
I think America was basically a different country before the 90s.
IDP is “International Driving Permit”, which is a booklet that certifies that the person has a driving license in <country> for <class of vehicles>. It includes the photo of the person and the date of birth. It includes translation in various languages so that when you’re in another country and rent a vehicle (or drive one) and the police (or enforcers) need to check if you have a valid license, you can show this (as well as your original license, if asked for). Anecdotally, I’ve heard that the process to get it through AAA seems quicker and easier than from the DMV.
You heard right, but that's because you won't get one at all from the any state DMV. The AAA is the only authorized entity allowed to issue IDPs in the USA. I wish I was making it up, because I'd rather go to my (excellent) DMV office than across town.
"The American Automobile Association (AAA) is the official organization authorized by the U.S. Department of State to issue IDPs" from https://www.usa.gov/international-drivers-license
https://www.aataidp.com/
It's easier than going to an AAA office. Slightly more expensive but worth it. They mail it to you quite quickly.
I've been a few places where that's the case, and a couple others where the car rental place actually validated the IDP.
When I got my IDP next year they only stamped the english page and I asked them to stamp all the pages, the AAA people pushed back and said it's not necessary. I shared my story about no, it really is, and they pushed back more. I said I really need to get all my stamps or I need my money back, since the IDP is useless to me without all the stamps (this is after I was no longer a AAA number) and the lady finally rolled her eyes and stamped it.
And it has to be the correct flavor of IDP too, meaning proper 1949 Geneva Convention on proper 1940s cardboard, none of that new-fangled 1969 Vienna Convention nonsense. Oh, your country has signed up to 1969 but not 1949? No car in Japan for you then.
Today, it’s almost the same everywhere I go