13 tastyface 0 7/17/2025, 6:53:48 PM

Comments (0)

donkey_brains · 4h ago
Are…are we the baddies?
ltbarcly3 · 4h ago
First of all, it's terrible that she was singled out for what is obviously political retribution and we should all be ashamed of our country for allowing what is very clearly an attempt to chill and shut down any form of criticism. It's extremely inappropriate and we need to reform the system to make abuses like this forbidden. We must have a rule of law that applies equally to every individual and actively resist arbitrary applications of government authority regardless of the context.

With that said, in almost every other country in the world this scenario wouldn't have been a result of individual retribution, but just a normal procedure. The US is unique in that it vaguely allows visitors to publicly engage in political speech and protest for things opposed to the government's theory of what is in our country's interests, even taking positions that are directly opposed to the government or supporting groups that actively seek to hurt or kill the citizens of that country. If she engaged in this behavior in Germany or France or Spain or Japan she would have been deported without any real debate, and potentially would have been guilty of a serious crime (because lots of speech is criminal in these countries, and there are political and historical claims are illegal to express at all).

The key distinction is that, for example, Germany makes these rules explicit in the terms of the visa and is not arbitrary in their application. The issue here is not that it's 'unconstitutional' or 'wrong' to restrict the activities of foreign visitors. The issue here is that this was arbitrary and politically motivated arrest and detention, which cannot ever be allowed in a free society.

zevon · 4h ago
How do you come up with such stuff? Free speech is as protected in Germany as it supposedly was in the US with a few Nazi-exceptions. So no - a doctoral student would not be grabbed of the street and put through dehumanizing detention experiences is most European countries as a matter of "normal procedure"?!
ltbarcly3 · 4h ago
No, they wouldn't be put through this horrible detention, they would just be removed from the country, or have their visa revoked and be barred from entry to Schengen after that. It is a much calmer, humane, and efficient process with what I consider to be a much more restrictive and aggressive enforcement regime.

Germany's 'freedom of speech' is just qualitatively different and much less meaningful. It's illegal to burn the German flag, use a diminutive to address a police officer (du vs sie). More troubling it's illegal to insult a foreign leader (and the government must determine whether criticism is 'abusive', which would constitute a crime)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6hmermann_affair

Chanting 'from the river to the sea' is illegal. Publishing statistics that suggest that refugees commit crimes at a higher rate. Calling a politician a 'criminal'. And of course the nazi stuff you mention. In general, 'human dignity' is considered more important that free speech.

I agree, the detention is insane, unnecessary, arbitrary, and a complete abuse.

zevon · 4h ago
Not really. At least not in the past and probably also not in the future if they are already in the country legally. These things a) take a lot of time (especially in Germany) and b) all the right-wing pandering of the current government is relatively new and will probably be moderated drastically by court decisions.

edit: As to your other points - I would argue that stuff like the Böhmermann affair is a good example that free speech more or less works in most parts of Europe. Yes, there were - very old - laws about insulting royalty and heads of state. However, a state-financed comedian was able to push on those issues enough for those paragraphs to be changed/struck (as far as i remember, at least) - and he's still state-financed, still has his head and his freedom and still happily insults important people.

edit2: It's not really correct to state that the phrase "from the river to the sea" is forbidden, specifically. There are no legal means to ban specific phrases on a whim in Germany. There are, however, blanket bans on using phrases/slogans of organisations that are unconstitutional such as terrorist groups. The argument has been made that "from the river to the sea" is a Hamas-slogan but as far as I've kept up with the discussion, there are different legal oppinions on that and there's no final court decision yet.

kirth_gersen · 4h ago
Doubtful. But even if true? So what? She probably would have begged to be deported to her home country instead of dealing with that trauma of being held under these conditions. We are supposed to be better than this. So disappointed in my country right now.
ltbarcly3 · 4h ago
What is doubtful? I agree 100% that her detention was a clear violation of the fair application of the rule of law and is offensive. Also it's true that other countries apply uniformly what was arbitrarily applied to her. Both are true.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/1/we-jews-are-just-arr...

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/8/31/germanys-immigr...

https://www.wusf.org/2025-04-20/germany-seeks-to-deport-an-a...

https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/10/germany-british-palestin...

https://www.visaverge.com/news/germany-targets-deportation-o...

I mean there's too many examples to list.