> You might be asking: why did you rewrite tmux in Rust? And yeah, I don’t really have a good reason. It’s a hobby project. Like gardening, but with more segfaults.
I love this attitude. We don’t necessarily need a reason to build new things. Who knows what will come out of a hobby project. Thanks to the author for the great write up!
Also, my gardening is full of segfaults, coding a new project is definitely safer to my yard.
tombert · 4h ago
Completely agree. Not every project has to be out there to change the world.
I recently rewrote `fzf` [1] in Rust. Did I have any particular reason to do so? No, not really, regular `fzf` is fine, but I thought it would be a fun excuse to learn how fuzzy search algorithms work and how to exploit the channels in Rust. It was fun. There's no question that regular fzf is better but that wasn't the point, the point was to play with stuff and learn.
Nice, I do think fzf is a really good candidate for something that could be better if written in Rust. The fzy[1] C-rewrite is really fast, but I couldn't get it to give me as useful results when searching bash history.
Yeah, I think Rust makes some sense, and I do think I've done a few clever things like getting a linear-time "sort" by exploiting the fact that there's a discrete and finite number of "scores" [1], and avoiding copies by taking the indexed values and explicitly moving them into the source channel to avoid extra copies [2].
Someone smarter than me who is more familiar with TUI programming could almost certainly augment and improve what I wrote; I worked on it for as long as it was interesting to me. I use it for my home-built program launcher thing Sway, though most people would probably get better results with real fzf.
"We don't necessarily need a reason to build new things."
But tmux isn't new
Is a reason necessarily needed to rewrite software in other languages
fragmede · 5m ago
GNU screen would like a word.
planet36 · 5h ago
"Gardening is the handiest excuse for being a philosopher."
- Ray Bradbury, Dandelion Wine
godelski · 2h ago
Honestly, I often hate how people ask "why?", and don't understand how "for fun" is a legitimate answer. I get it for work or other things, but hobbies? We do lots of things for fun! Humans were born to play, just like every other animal. It's how we learn and explore the world around us.
And frankly, to quote Knuth
> In fact what I would like to see is thousands of computer scientists let loose to do whatever they want. That's what really advances the field.
This is true for any field, or any project. We're creative creatures. We dream and explore. Major changes almost never come from doing things the way they've always been done. A lot of times "just because" gives you the freedom to try new things and challenge those paradigms. Weirdly, if you always have to justify everything you slow down progress.
Arisaka1 · 2h ago
I still believe that my #1 think that stunted my growth as a junior SWE was overthinking my personal projects and languages to use for them, instead of just building whatever I felt it's interesting or intriguing to build.
godelski · 57m ago
It's always hard to tell. But have you considered you might be measuring the wrong way?
To me it sounds like you learned a real important lesson one that some people never seem to learn.
I think one of the most beneficial aspects of doing things "just because" is these other skills or information you get along the way. It is very easy to miss all of this progress if you're too focused on the progress of the more tangible things. But that doesn't make any of that not progress. So don't put yourself down for that, because I'm sure you learned a lot. The only reason you can look back and see a better way is because you made that progress and learned those lessons. These are things mentors can usually help you get through faster but not everyone has a mentor nor access to one. But don't undermine your own progress just because you didn't finish projects or because you did things differently than others
ku1ik · 54m ago
Same here!
serial_dev · 25m ago
Asking “why” can still be a legitimate question, and “for fun” can also be a legitimate answer.
I treat projects differently if they want to launch a product, they want to replace an established open source tool, done for fun for themselves, or if it’s a hobby project.
cultofmetatron · 5h ago
> Like gardening, but with more segfaults.
interesting, I'm new to rust. what are you doing that necessitates using unsafe?
jeroenhd · 4h ago
A lot of things that C will let you do (even if you enter the realm of undefined behaviour) will simply not compile to C. As the author states, there are semantic differences between pointers and Rust's references.
C pointers can have as many owners as you want, may be subjected to mathematical operations, and can be cast to any type without even an error message. The compiler will just assume you know what you're doing. If you enable enough compiler warnings, it might warn you, but C compilers don't generate a lot of those by default.
Rust will let you only generate one mutable (exclusive) reference at a time. This means straight C to Rust ports simply don't compile.
By switching to pointers, which work pretty much like their C equivalent, you can port the code much easier, but you do of course lose the benefits of Rust's safety mechanisms, because most pointer operations throw away all the safety guarantee that Rust provides.
zozbot234 · 44m ago
> Rust will let you only generate one mutable (exclusive) reference at a time.
Safe Rust includes many forms of shared mutability, including Cell<> which is perhaps the closest comparison to typical patterns in C code.
SoftTalker · 4h ago
So what is the advantage of an unsafe Rust implementation? Just to have done it?
petrzjunior · 3h ago
It is rewritten to a different language and many people find Rust easier to read, it has better type hint support for IDE etc. Also, you do not lose all the safety, there are still many rules enforced, such as safe linking, no undefined functions.
Unsafe Rust means that all parts of code which do illegal pointer magic are explicitly marked with an "unsafe" keyword. You can now go one by one and fix them.
kevincox · 1h ago
Once the codebase is all Rust you can start introducing Rust idioms and patterns. Basically step 1 is to get it working in Rust then step 2 is to clean up the Rust to actually take advantage of the language.
cuu508 · 4h ago
From the article: "The next goal is to convert the codebase to safe Rust."
tshaddox · 5h ago
I suspect it's vastly easier to port C to unsafe Rust than to safe Rust.
upmind · 6h ago
I found out that quite funny, I wonder how many hours he spent on this. It seems extremely monotonous haha
ziml77 · 5h ago
Sometimes that's exactly what one needs. As long as there's not forced schedule for the work and you can do it when you want and at the pace that you want, it can feel good.
phkahler · 3h ago
I think knitting looks monotonous, but I can see the appeal.
rauli_ · 3h ago
Not every code project needs to turn out to be world changing. Experiments like this sometimes produce excellent results.
dsp_person · 2h ago
Looking forward to the tmux-c re-rewrite next
johnisgood · 2h ago
These people are delusional, leave them be. :D
90s_dev · 1h ago
Intuition and logic are the two halfs of reason (logos). We sometimes have a reason that we can't put into words (logos) but we know intuitively.
nisegami · 6h ago
Maybe my understanding of one or more concepts involves is wrong, but that "more segfaults" bit confuses me. Shouldn't the rust compiler prevent code that can segfault from compiling? Unless there was a lot of unsafe blocks involved.
Edit: apparently it did turn out to be a lot of unsafe code
Jtsummers · 6h ago
It's a transliteration. He's basically implemented a C program in Rust. He says in the conclusion the next goal is converting it to safe Rust.
ar_lan · 4h ago
In the second sentence he mentions:
> the code base is now 100% (unsafe) Rust
I didn't interpret that it's 100% unsafe, but I do expect that to mean there is probably a lot of unsafe blocks used. A good amount of the example code in the post alone is unsafe blocks as well.
miroljub · 6h ago
My understanding is that, even though tmux-rs is written in a safer language, it still can't beat the stability of an old battle-tested well-maintained project written by a group of highly competent developers.
Every new project is bound to have bugs that need to be ironed out during the time.
a_humean · 5h ago
They wrote everything in unsafe rust where its very possible to segfault. This is not a normal C to Rust port. In a normal port you would never aim to have 100% unsafe rust code - rather you would hive off small parts of your application where you need unsafe so its highlighted and auditable. This is clearly an excerise for fun.
nicoburns · 2h ago
I think it is a normal porting process, it's just only half-finished at this point. The conversion to safe Rust is yet to come.
antonvs · 5h ago
No, the issue is that doing a direct translation from a fundamentally unsafe language like C can't fix safety issues.
You'd have to do a proper rewrite, in which case you could write safe code from the start.
> Every new project is bound to have bugs that need to be ironed out during the time.
Not on the level of the kind of critical security and reliability bugs that unsafe languages foster. That's why CISA and the FBI both strongly recommend memory-safe languages.
QuaternionsBhop · 5h ago
My understanding is that the author was referring to there being more segfaults in programming than in gardening.
nicce · 5h ago
Both can be true at the same time in that sentence
Ar-Curunir · 5h ago
It’s just because there are a lot of unsafes, and because the translation from C to Rust introduced semantic-mismatch bugs
badgersnake · 2h ago
> new things
Or copies of old things apparently.
ethagnawl · 5h ago
This announcement has my attention.
I've been working on a Rust-based tmux session manager called rmuxinator (i.e. tmuxinator clone) for a few years now. It (mostly) works and been slow going because ... life but I've recently picked it back up to fix some bugs. One of the last new features I'd added was the ability to use rmuxinator as a library in other Rust programs. I'd like to try forking tmux-rs, adding rmuxinator as a dependency and seeing if it would ... just work as a way to start sessions using per-project config files. I'm definitely not advocating for adding rmuxinator upstream but it would be very nice to have this sort of session templating baked into the "terminal multiplexer" itself.
The other interesting possibility I could foresee is doing things the other way around and having rmuxinator use tmux-rs as a library in order to setup and manage sessions instead of just dumping out shell commands -- which is fraught with edge cases. (Not sure if this is currently possible with tmux-rs, though.)
Once I wrap up the bugfixes I'm currently working on, I may fork this project and give one or both of the above a try.
Regardless, nice work by richardscollin!
uecker · 6h ago
I like this post, one can learn a lot.
It seems automatically translating Rust to C is not a very good idea: "I threw away all of the C2Rust output and decided I would translate all of the files into Rust manually from C.". Neither seems doing it manually: "I introduced many bugs while translating the code. I’d like to share the process of discovering and fixing a couple." Or using AI: "That’s because when using cursor to translate the code it would still occasionally insert bugs, just like me. So, I spent as much time reviewing the generated code as it would have taken me to write it myself."
As a hobby project, all power to you. But otherwise, maybe better not rewrite working code....
greenavocado · 28m ago
This is funny, but unfortunately .NET went all in on the AI coding assistant kool-aid.
> But otherwise, maybe better not rewrite working code....
Except that the eventual result allows for extension and improvements in a memory-safe language.
hnlmorg · 1h ago
tmux doesn’t really gain anything from memory safety because:
1. anything running in tmux already has execution rights and typically for the same user as tmux anyway.
2. Anyone who wanted to exploit tmux could just run ‘tmux -C’ and automatically get access to literally every interaction within tmux.
3. The software itself is already damn stable. I've never had it crash.
If you’re worried about someone exploiting your terminal then tmux is a terrible option, irrespective of whether it’s with written in C or Rust. And I say this as someone who absolutely loves tmux and uses it every day.
[edit]
And if you're worried about non-security related bugs affecting UX, then a rewrite in any language, regardless of the language, is a worse solution if your application has already been battle-tested for close to two decades. You're much better off creating something entirely new instead of porting code from one language to another because at least then you have new ideas instead of the same application but with new bugs in different places.
I don't say this because of some bias that Rust fanboys will assume I have. I love memory safe languages and think Rust is a great option for new projects. The point I'm making here is that a rewrite doesn't gain much for tmux SPECIFICALLY because tmux is already extremely stable.
legobmw99 · 1h ago
There are reasons to be worried about additional safety beyond just security. My first thought when reading the article was it would be a huge bummer if a bug in tmux brought down a long-running or particularly stateful session. Of course, I’ve never encountered such a thing in my own usage, but if you could make it less likely that alone seems like a value add
hnlmorg · 58m ago
If tmux was a new project then I'd agree with you. But, like yourself, I've using tmux for probably close to 15 years now and never had it crash once.
In fact the author of this project has admitted that they've introduced bugs with their rewrite. I know it's a hobby project so I'm not being critical of their work. But if we're only interested in reducing bugs then rewriting an existing project isn't the right way to go. Something like Zellij makes more sense because it's offering something new in addition to being written in Rust.
antonvs · 1h ago
Any program gains from memory safety. Memory safety is not just about security. It's about eliminating an entire class of bugs - buffer overflows, null pointer errors, use-after-free, the list goes on. They just so happen to be the kind of bugs that also tend to have serious security consequences.
I honestly don't get this relentless defense of 1970s-style programming. Do you think C is the pinnacle of programming language design? No? Then what's your point, exactly?
hnlmorg · 1h ago
> Any program gains from memory safety. Memory safety is not just about security. It's about eliminating an entire class of bugs - buffer overflows, null pointer errors, use-after-free, the list goes on. They just so happen to be the kind of bugs that also tend to have serious security consequences.
Have you actually ever encountered such a bug in tmux though? Because I've been using it for around 15 years and can honestly say I haven't.
Yet this rewrite has introduced bugs. I know it's a hobby project so I'm not being critical. But if you're just trying to reduce bugs then rewriting code battle tested code in another language, regardless of that language, isn't the right way to go.
> I honestly don't get this relentless defense of 1970s-style programming. Do you think C is the pinnacle of programming language design? No? Then what's your point, exactly?
Where was I defending 1970s style programming? I wasn't even defending C. In fact the last project I've worked on based in either C or C++ was 10 years ago. Believe me, I'm a fan of memory safe languages ;)
My point was very clear and very specific to tmux. You're just trying to read between the lines and create a whole new argument where there was none.
No comments yet
uecker · 5h ago
There seems to be some rather irrational obsession about this.
antonvs · 5h ago
Things can seem irrational when you don't understand them.
Another comment in this thread hoped for "a brand new bulletproof tmux-resurrect". The reason there's a desire for such things is closely related to the limitations of non-trivial programs written in C.
They're harder to extend without bugs, harder for new team members to understand, and so on.
The "irrational obsession" has to do with advancing the state of the art beyond a primitive high-level assembler that was developed in the 1970s.
uecker · 5h ago
I understand them very well, I just do not think it trumps all other considerations. Also I do not believe that Rust is easier than C. It is also less fun, less portable, and has another annoying ecosytem costs.
sunshowers · 2h ago
Rust is far more portable in practice than C. Your average C program is written either for Unix or for Windows, while Rust has sufficient abstraction power to be able to write most business logic once.
I maintain cargo-nextest, a widely-used test runner for Rust. It is possible to write nextest's runner loop in C, but it would be extraordinarily difficult — each test's state machine has dozens of states, there are several dynamic event sources as inputs, and the event loop relies heavily on epoll/kqueue/the equivalent Windows thing, as abstracted out by Tokio. So most test runners written in C don't even try to approach the quality, reliability, or portability of nextest.
I think you have no idea how big the C ecosystem is. I am not sure what cargo-nextest is, but I have seen people solve the most challenging programs in C.
sunshowers · 1h ago
As I mentioned, cargo-nextest is a widely used test runner for Rust -- you're welcome to check out its website for its feature set.
It is possible to do this in C, because it compiles to machine code in the end. But would be out of reach for all but the most talented of C teams working over many years, and the portability costs would be massive. As a result, I don't know of a test runner that comes anywhere close to the feature set and portability of nextest that's written in C.
> I think you have no idea how big the C ecosystem is.
I'm definitely aware that the C ecosystem is much larger than the Rust ecosystem.
uecker · 1h ago
I also doesn't seem like anything most people would spend a lot of time on. I run my tests using "make" which somewhat poor but does the job. So from a programming side, what exactly do you think would be difficult to implement in C?
sunshowers · 25s ago
Right, "make" is indeed not quite a high-performance enterprise-grade test runner with parallel test execution, high-quality reporting, signal handling, dynamic status querying, timeouts, retries, flaky test detection, mutual exclusion between tests, a DSL that lets you specify sets of tests, flexible configuration, archiving tests to run on another computer, sharding test runs, JUnit support, wrapper scripts, setup scripts, and several other features. Make doesn't even properly support Windows, which is table stakes for a general test runner.
There's a lot of subjectivity here. The last serious C code I wrote was in the early 1990s, and I don't miss it at all, because I don't like spending time on low-level details unrelated to the problem domain I'm working on.
I find Rust fun and easy for writing system-level code, and I have enormous appreciation for the degree of correctness-by-construction that it can provide. Generally, if it builds, it works, as long as you're making proper use of the type system - make illegal states unrepresentable, as the saying goes. That's very difficult to do with C.
Rust isn't perfect. For most things, I'd rather be using Haskell, ML, or something on that level. But it's still on a completely different level from C, and rewriting the software ecosystem in it can only be an improvement.
davemp · 2h ago
C23 is very different than C89. C89 variable declarations are decidedly not fun.
Embed, designated initialization, and constexpr are really nice adds.
nicce · 5h ago
> It is also less fun
Statistically it is the most fun language there is, based on Stackoverflow. Portability is just a matter of time like with any language.
uecker · 1h ago
Lol, if you believe such surveys.
chillingeffect · 5h ago
> developed in the 1970s.
It was born in the 1970s and was standardized in the 80s and 90s. It continues to develop. Numerous data types have been added, along with unicode and threads. The C23 standard was released last year.
antonvs · 4h ago
You can say something similar about COBOL and FORTRAN. C's fundamental flaws aren't being fixed, because that would require a new language.
There comes a point at which it becomes necessary to move on.
donkeybeer · 4h ago
What's wrong with FORTRAN?
antonvs · 2h ago
The same kinds of things that are wrong with all languages originally designed more than 50 years ago (75 years in Fortran's case) and that have accreted features since then. You end up with long-term fads like class-based object orientation embedded in the language, and that inhibits them evolving towards more principled designs. C++ is in a similar situation.
All of these languages are Turing complete. So ultimately, if you're happy writing code in some language and don't want to change, that's your choice. But the reason Fortran or C or C++ isn't many people's first choice for new projects are closely related to the reasons I've mentioned. There will always be people who want to stick to what they know, but it's not only science that advances one funeral at a time.
pklausler · 3h ago
It’s hard to actually define what Fortran means. There’s features in the standard that are not portable, and many portable features that are not standard. It’s kind of a mess, and getting worse.
Spivak · 4h ago
What in your mind are the fundamental issues of C? Because memory safety clearly isn't one of them as brand new systems languages are being written without it (Zig).
antonvs · 1h ago
Memory safety is certainly a pretty fundamental problem with C. Zig actually addresses some of those issues, even if it's not fully "memory safe" by definition. Besides, the fact that new systems languages are being written without memory safety doesn't make it a good idea. People write all sorts of languages for all sorts of reasons.
C's lack of memory safety covers a broad range of concerns, including manual memory management, unrestricted pointers, null pointers (Tony Hoare's "billion dollar mistake"), buffer overflows, use-after-free, integer promotions, and so on.
Its weak type system is another fundamental limitation, closely related to its limited support for abstraction. The weakness of the standard library reflects this. The weak type system means that the static guarantees it provides are minimal. There were excuses for all this in 1975, there aren't any more.
Undefined behavior is more of an issue in C than in most languages. Again, not something you ideally want in a systems language.
Language-level concurrency support is virtually nonexistent.
Use of textual preprocessing, with limited semantic integration, as a language feature. Aside from the effects on the meaning of source code, it also makes building C programs more complex.
And again, the reason C23 hasn't addressed any of this significantly is because of fundamental limitations in the nature of the language. You can't "fix" these things without developing a new language.
uecker · 36m ago
I think this narrative of the unfixable fundamental flaws in C is a lot of nonsense. There are certainly a lot of dangerous aspects, but most are rather easily avoided. Rust has an advantage, with temporal memory safety. I do not think C++, Zig, or Go have a fundamental advantage. There is certainly a lot of bad C code out, but instead of changing language, you could also just write modern C code.
steveklabnik · 3h ago
Absolutely zero shade to Zig, because it is still pre-1.0, but if you look at which new systems languages have gained wide adoption recently, instead of languages that are just created, you end up with Rust. And the stated reason industry is adopting it is memory safety.
cwood-sdf · 1h ago
zig is trying its best to also be memory safe (at runtime, if you want it) whereas c is stuck in the past (you can add on sanitizers, but they arent built into the language)
wat10000 · 4h ago
It comes from the fact that nearly every useful program written in C has multiple security vulnerabilities just waiting to be found. In the unlikely event that you have a codebase that's free of them, you risk introducing one with any significant change.
JdeBP · 3h ago
Instead of just dogmatically asserting that any C program has security vulnerabilities, and changing C programs is also a security problem, you should look at what tmux's record actually is.
tmux has existed for approaching 18 years, and M. Marriott is still actively improving it as of last week. One can actually look at its record over that time, and, if that record is poor, replace proof by unsupported generalized assertion with proof based upon actual evidence.
That is still quite a good record, but my statement stands. It is supported by decades of my experience working in C-derived languages. You don't have to accept my experience or believe my statement, of course, it's all the same to me.
hnlmorg · 19m ago
That's a little like closing the barn door after the horse has already bolted because if you're concerned about security, then running any untrusted software in your terminal multiplexer is already a bad idea, regardless of whether your multiplexer is written in a memory-safe language or not.
...and before someone moans that I'm a C-fanboy, I'm really not. I've been writing software exclusively in memory-safe languages for 10+ years now. But I'm also pragmatic about when arguments about a RiR (rewrite-in-rust) are sensible and when they're not. In tmux's specific case, arguing about security misses the point.
ozgrakkurt · 2h ago
As someone using rust for over 7 years and recently switched to zig for personal projects, there is a lot of nuance. Yes rust is very reliable, it is really good even if you set memory safety aspect aside. But developing in rust is just so painful compared to using a simple language like c or zig and just enjoying the process.
Also dev time is massively shorter and the time I gain is spent on adding more features and tests.
Would recommend building low level projects in something like zig, if you care about build time and don’t want to use a dependency for everything.
wat10000 · 1h ago
I like C and various parts of C++ and I'm still writing new code in those languages. But for any component that could be exposed to malicious data, security is a never-ending game of whack-a-mole. I'm not saying everyone must move away, just that when people do, this is a big reason why.
tekawade · 5h ago
I love this. I also want to dabble into loving things to rust!
Here I want to call out zellij. Zellij is rust based terminal multiplexer.
I am user not creator. I love everything rust and finding and migrating to rust based solutions where feasible.
gmoque · 4h ago
I love the attitude on this project and most of the comments are supportive. While rewriting a mature application to another language always sounds like a bad idea, there are so many learnings along the way. It's not about the end it's about the process.
Given the traction you got here and the advancements in AI, I'm sure this can become a very attractive hobby project for Rust beginners, there's probably a lot of easy bugs to fix. Fixing bugs, adding new features, and optimizing the code is all you need.
Here's an idea to get the ball rolling: Create a scratch buffer for Gemini CLI (or your favorite LLM) and enable it to interact with the various windows and panes of the tmux session.
Here's my use case, I use synchronized panes to send the commands into multiple servers, but some commands sometimes fail for various reasons. What if I can just ask the AI to send a series of commands and react based on the output and adjust along the way. It's like a dynamically generated custom shell script on the fly.
tialaramex · 6h ago
Coincidentally I was just watching this, "Oxidise Your Command Line"
Some of that video is about stuff you have no use for if you're not a Rust developer, but, some of it is things that would be just as useful to anybody who is comfortable with, as it says, a command line interface.
someperson · 4h ago
Surely improvements be made to c2rust to reduce the cited information loss with constant naming, to reduce the initial conversion burden?
kevincox · 1h ago
Yeah, this seems like a huge missing feature for C2Rust. IIUC the main idea is to serve as a base for then porting to idiomatic Rust. But if you lose all of the constants that is a huge productivity loss.
rthnbgrredf · 5h ago
This seems like an excellent future use case for a fully automated process by a large language model that translates a non-trivial C codebase to Safe Rust in under an hour with high accuracy. However, as the author noted, even after some attempts with Cursor at the end of development, the tool wasn't able to accelerate the translation effectively (in mid-2025). So while the potential is promising, it appears we're still some way off.
gavmor · 5h ago
These folks[0] are doing it, possibly via "codemods"[1], which utilize ASTs.
> This seems like an excellent future use case for a fully automated process by a large language model that translates a non-trivial C codebase to Safe Rust in under an hour with high accuracy.
That’s specific.
xvilka · 5h ago
Nice, hope it will become cleaner code in time. I tried zellij multiple times but despite years of development it still misses many things tmux provides. Inability to show/hide status bar[1] is the most annoying.
You can't rebind key maps to its session manager plugin, making it a no-go since I bind the same key that the plugin uses to select a directory or something. Thus, I can't create new sessions through it, have to do it from the command line.
dangoodmanUT · 51m ago
I love this, but the examples they show of their snippets are really, really not rust idiomatic.
Like they’ve basically thrown away all the rust patterns and just wrote a c program in rust (eg all the raw pointers)
teekert · 5h ago
Nice, I like tmux, I use it daily, I live in it. I hope this version makes it easier to just scroll with the scroll wheel or ctrl-page-up/down, or ctrl tab through your panes, or just show the whole unconcatenated title in the bottom left ;)
Sorry I know this is not the place to complain, but it would be so nice!
antonvs · 5h ago
I use byobu which is basically an opinionated distribution of tmux. Scroll wheel works fine, as does Alt-PgUp/PgDn.
Ctrl-Tab probably won't work because terminals tend not to recognize it as different from Tab. But you might be able to bind Alt-Tab or some other such combo to cycle through panes in the tmux config. It should just be a one-liner.
psyclobe · 3h ago
Oh neat!!
jayknight · 5h ago
For me scroll wheel just works. The other stuff wouldn't be hard to configure with `bind-key`. I use ctrl-space to cycle through panes in a window:
bind-key -n C-Space select-pane -t +1
0x457 · 5h ago
You might like zellij more than tmux.
seyz · 1h ago
> I don’t really have a good reason. It’s a hobby project. Like gardening, but with more segfaults.
Love it. You definitively deserve your +350 points!
Jtsummers · 1h ago
It's not my project, I saw that line and read the rest and thought it was interesting so I submitted it.
alberth · 1h ago
Slightly OT: it didn’t dawn on me until recently that terminal multiplier (like tmux) is a terminal itself.
And as a result, you could be running the greatest / fastest / most feature rich desktop terminal … but if your multiplier doesn’t support something - it hinders your fancy desktop terminal.
tmux has been used a lot of memory on my system, especially when scrolling buffer is large enough (I often have > 10k lines of things ).
I have often executed `pkill -9 tmux` and saved my day. I hope the rust version can help a bit here?
01HNNWZ0MV43FF · 5h ago
How much is a lot? Even 10,000 lines of text should be on the order of megabytes, right?
throwaway290 · 6h ago
Tmux has configurable scrollback buffer size, maybe set-option -g history-limit something-smaller in your config?
downrightmike · 6h ago
Let us know
submeta · 6h ago
Tmux is a gamechanger for me. Being able to start a dozen different projects with one line (using tmuxinator): the server, tailing logfiles, activating venvs, running the docker container, all within one line of code: Awesome. Hadn’t worked with it for years, just started again two days ago as I migrated from iTerm to Ghostty. And am loving the setup. Plus nvim. Pure awesomeness.
Looking forward to check out tmux-rs.
kccqzy · 4h ago
Surprised to hear you migrated from iTerm. It actually has a tmux integration mode (using -CC) that's awesome. You then don't have to remember any tmux specific shortcuts. Switching window is just Cmd+` just like everywhere else.
I entirely stopped using tmux when I couldn't use iTerm.
johnisgood · 4h ago
> Looking forward to check out tmux-rs.
Have you checked out the website? This is a c2rust project. The Rust code is full of unsafe code and probably buggier than the C version, and let us not even mention readability and maintainability. Maybe there is a joke somewhere.
> I threw away all of the C2Rust output and decided I would translate all of the files into Rust manually from C.
The talk about starting with it, realizing it was too rough and changed approach. It's unsafe rust now but next goal at end was a safe version.
johnisgood · 2h ago
Yeah, time will tell. I am not going to hold my breath. You can, but you might find yourself dead (or not, actually).
Have you read the conclusion, BTW?
sanity · 1h ago
How do people feel about tmux vs zellij?
imbnwa · 1h ago
Zellij has interesting ideas, but it has a ways to go. You can arbitrarily rebind the base modes and their actions, but you're F'd if those conflict with a plugin's, which seem to all have hardcoded key binds.
philosophty · 1h ago
"Despite the generated code working, it was basically unmaintainable and 3x larger than the original C."
Which makes C2Rust seem pretty useless?
"I’ve recently reached a big milestone: the code base is now 100% (unsafe) Rust. I’d like to share the process of porting the original codebase from ~67,000 lines of C code to ~81,000 lines of Rust (excluding comments and empty lines)."
And yet somehow a hand-ported (and still unsafe) rewrite of a C program in Rust is still almost 20% larger?
If I recall, the Go gc compiler was automatically converted from 80K lines of C to 80K lines of Go. A hand-ported version would have been much smaller.
kevincox · 1h ago
> Which makes C2Rust seem pretty useless?
It does what took him 6 months in seconds. Of course it isn't perfect, failing to keep the name of constants being an obvious flaw. But presumably with a few improvements you could then spend some of that 6 months cleaning up the code and still save time. Sounds like C2Rust is almost there, but not quite yet.
> And yet somehow a hand-ported (and still unsafe) rewrite of a C program in Rust is still almost 20% larger?
Size is not a very useful metric. But the port is still half-done. He has got it working in Rust, so now he is ready to do the "hard" part of the port and actually rewrite the "basically C" code into idiomatic Rust. That is where you expect to get safety improvements and hopefully more readable code.
philosophty · 11m ago
"It does what took him 6 months in seconds."
It generated unusuable garbage code in seconds, which is nothing like what he wrote by hand in six months.
"Size is not a very useful metric."
Yes, size is a very useful metric. Counting tokens is more accurate but lines of code is a good first approximation.
The entire purpose of high level languages is to make it possible to do more with less code. Size isn't all that matters but it's very important.
Rust code is not only more verbose than C it's also much more irregular and complex. That 20% increase in lines of code is probably more like 50% increase in code complexity, and this is without safety.
120 comments and nobody has mentioned the use-after-free triggered by closing a window. Rust truly is the safest language.
blibble · 1h ago
what is it with these re-implementations by different authors pinching the name of the original project?
you want to re-implement a well known project, fine
call it something else
hnlmorg · 1h ago
That ship sailed right at the birth of open source. Just look at the number of different reimplementations of coreutils.
aldousd666 · 3h ago
Great way to learn a new language!
a-dub · 3h ago
the one thing i wish tmux supported was remote connections to several backend instances.
Carrok · 1h ago
Use tmuxinator to start multiple ssh/mosh connections.
bitbeq · 1h ago
wfd
qwertywert_ · 5h ago
You weren't really lying when you said "100% (unsafe) Rust" eh..
cchance · 3h ago
Next step slowly porting unsafe code to safe rust? lol
FullyFunctional · 1h ago
why is that funny? I’ve done exactly this (in a processional setting): c2rust to get something functional and the incrementally rewritten the code while producing unit tests (approvals tests via insta are particularly handy). The end result was a codebase which was much easier to maintain, with much better tooling and tests.
johnisgood · 4h ago
> the code base is now 100% (unsafe) Rust. I’d like to share the process of porting the original codebase from ~67,000 lines of C code to ~81,000 lines of Rust
Sounds to me that this was a C -> Rust transpiler. :D
Please let me know which one is more readable to you.
jonpalmisc · 4h ago
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the generated Rust is nicer than the original C.
It is auto-generated with the purpose of maintaining the exact same semantics as the C code, with no regard to safety, best practices, etc.—of course it is messier than actual, handwritten Rust.
As c2rust says in its documentation [1], it's meant to be the first step in an otherwise manual and incremental port of a codebase from C to Rust, and the author recognizes this in their closing remarks:
> The next goal is to convert the codebase to safe Rust.
You should read one paragraph further. They did use c2rust but found it really bad and threw that out of the window. Then did it manually. So in the end it is not c2rust.
johnisgood · 2h ago
Yeah, looking forward to it.
Have you read the conclusion, by the way?
It is probably going to end up being vaporware.
_danielle_ · 4h ago
I mean what else would you expect when C is ported directly to Rust? Rust programs typically aren't written anything like C programs are.
johnisgood · 2h ago
No shit sherlock.
_danielle_ · 1h ago
Then why make the original comment? :')
denysvitali · 6h ago
I like the initiative, but all this effort for ... unsafe Rust?
I know it's a hot topic, and I hope the end goal is to have a memory-safe (and faster) tmux. I just hope the author doesn't stop here :)
Edit: As pointed out below, I'm stupid, it's stated in the article and I didn't read that part
riskable · 6h ago
It's the first step in a two-step process:
1. Rewrite in (unsafe) Rust.
2. Update the code over time, moving towards safe Rust.
It's the old, "get it working then fix it" process. In business that's normally a bad idea because you end up wasting more time than if you'd just done things correctly from the start but for a hobby project it's fine. Because then you're more likely to learn something and possibly—ultimately—end up with a better end product.
To a business, time your developers spend learning things (the hard way) is wasted.
To a hobbyist, taking the time to learn things is time well-spent.
Jtsummers · 6h ago
In business it can also be a good idea, because if you're waiting for it to be done correctly you may never have a delivered product even if you have a working (but not 100% ideal) product. A compromise is to get a subset of your target capabilities working correctly and the rest unimplemented and deliver that before continuing on.
verbatim · 6h ago
At the end of the article he states that the next step is to work toward safe Rust.
johnisgood · 4h ago
I highly doubt it is going to happen. Should have started from scratch, in Rust.
denysvitali · 6h ago
Thank you! I skimmed through the article and didn't find this. Should have used CTRL+F :)
busterarm · 5h ago
It's not exactly a stupid thought. My immediate reaction was: 1) 25% more LOC, 2) in unsafe Rust, 3) for a tool that already has great maintainence.
The only reason this is at the top of HN is because of where Rust is on the Gartner Hype Cycle right now.
It's neat, but I wouldn't say useful.
echelon · 5h ago
I wonder if the tmux maintainers would be interested in switching to this?
Transitioning more software from C to Rust is a great idea.
yjftsjthsd-h · 4h ago
My understanding is that tmux is primarily an OpenBSD project, and rust isn't a good fit for them (for reasons that summarize to portability problems), so it is extremely unlikely. Also, this is a hobby project that currently is all unsafe, so there's not even any particular point. (EDIT: Of course, as it gets rewritten the latter point is likely to diminish)
zozbot234 · 36m ago
> rust isn't a good fit for them (for reasons that summarize to portability problems)
Taking a look at the source earlier, I'd guess probably not.
If you're going to move a project to rust, you'd want to actually make it look like rust. Currently it looks like C written in rust. That doesn't make anyone happy really.
(Obv. not a slight on the maintainer here, it's a personal project with a specific approach)
zppln · 5h ago
Seems like a bit entitled to expect being able to go around rewriting stuff and then have the old maintainers maintain it.
echelon · 1h ago
> to expect
I wonder, I don't expect.
This would require first for the Rust implementation to grow beyond a POC with code translation. In its current state I doubt it could entice any of the original authors or maintainers. But if it became capable and hardened and picked up velocity, then it would pose some major questions for having two similar pieces of software.
uecker · 5h ago
It is a horrible idea.
johnisgood · 4h ago
Is this a joke? Have you seen the generated Rust code? This is not an actual rewrite.
aniforprez · 3h ago
Seems like you didn't read the article at all. The author talks about writing it themselves after finding the automatically generated code not up to snuff.
johnisgood · 2h ago
I did, but I am not having high hopes. Have you read the conclusion?
> 120 comments and nobody has mentioned the use-after-free triggered by closing a window. Rust truly is the safest language.
alexvitkov · 6h ago
I'll take a rust tmux if it runs on Windows. I'm currently kind of stuck on Windows and I didn't realize how much tmux means to me until Bill took it away :(
joe_guy · 6h ago
tmux runs fine in WSL1/2
nickjj · 5h ago
Yep I've been doing this since WSL 1 was available, it's rock solid.
My dotfiles at https://github.com/nickjj/dotfiles have an install script to automatically get everything (including tmux w/ plugins) set up on Debian, Ubuntu, Arch Linux or macOS. This includes native Linux and WSL 2 support.
alexvitkov · 5h ago
WSL is not Windows. Unless you can work entirely in WSL (and if I could I'd just use Linux) having to juggle fake filesystems, incompatible symlinks, two PATHs, three shells is a bit much.
throwaway290 · 6h ago
Why are you stuck on Windows?
diggan · 6h ago
Some programs only run on Windows, this isn't a new problem. Personally, the only reason I have a Windows installation on my desktop is because Ableton doesn't run (well) via Wine, so not a lot of options really.
vunderba · 2h ago
This. DAW support in Linux has always been kind of rough. It's slowly getting better though with stuff like Bitwig and Reaper.
mystifyingpoi · 3h ago
Most people in big companies are stuck with Windows. But WSL2 is really amazing, even if a workaround in idea.
finnjohnsen2 · 5h ago
At least he's not stuck on MacOS
malithmcr · 3h ago
Rust is king
lolive · 5h ago
D.mn!
I was hoping for the announcement of a brand new bulletproof tmux-resurrect.
But no, it is (just) tmux-(recodedIn)rust.
z3ratul163071 · 4h ago
rewriting old code in new language is the killer application for AI. should have used that instead of transpiler.
londons_explore · 4h ago
LLM's are really good at translating one programming language into another.
In fact, I sometimes port code to another language and back just as a way to do code cleanup (or at least give ideas for things that could be cleaned up)
I wonder why OP didn't start from that as a starting point?
Etheryte · 4h ago
This is discussed in the article? They tried cursor, but the bug rate was no better than their manual effort, so at least in this context, it did not work out.
lab14 · 4h ago
Because he didn't want to? He mentioned that for him, this is like a "gardening" project, so why take away the joy of programming just to become an AI operator?
parhamn · 5h ago
Interesting, this article and the comments make no mention of LLMs for the initial translation. Really surprising given that would be the first thing I'd reach for for a translation/porting task (though verification could get tricky).
Now I really wonder how a good model like Sonnet 4 would have performed.
Jtsummers · 5h ago
> Interesting, this article and the comments make no mention of LLMs.
Using Cursor to refactor the unsafe code is quite a different task than using an LLM to translate into safe rust. I was just curious how it would perform.
smj-edison · 5h ago
Check the bottom :)
> I did start trying out Cursor towards the end of the development process. I ended up stopping using it though because I felt like it didn’t actually increase my speed. It only saved me from finger pain. That’s because when using cursor to translate the code it would still occasionally insert bugs, just like me. So, I spent as much time reviewing the generated code as it would have taken me to write it myself. The only thing it saved was my hands. Doing this large amount of refactoring is really hard on your fingers.
TechDebtDevin · 5h ago
It wouldnt have gotten 2% finishd. It wouldn't have compiled. Its a waste of time to even consider.
parhamn · 4h ago
> It wouldnt have gotten 2% finishd
What do you mean by this? I'd assume the process would be very very incremental. One function + accompany tests at a time, verify and continue and keep moving up the tree.
It's an interesting problem because I imagine in the future lots of things will be ported like this.
TechDebtDevin · 4h ago
You've been duped my friend.
-edit Good luck reading 100k lines of Claude generated Rust that you know nothing about lol. LLMS are not the tool for this.
keybored · 4h ago
The people demand the AI angle.
dkdcio · 5h ago
did you read the article? it does mention using LLMs
I love this attitude. We don’t necessarily need a reason to build new things. Who knows what will come out of a hobby project. Thanks to the author for the great write up!
Also, my gardening is full of segfaults, coding a new project is definitely safer to my yard.
I recently rewrote `fzf` [1] in Rust. Did I have any particular reason to do so? No, not really, regular `fzf` is fine, but I thought it would be a fun excuse to learn how fuzzy search algorithms work and how to exploit the channels in Rust. It was fun. There's no question that regular fzf is better but that wasn't the point, the point was to play with stuff and learn.
[1] https://github.com/Tombert/rs-fzf-clone
[1] jhawthorn/fzy: :mag: A simple, fast fuzzy finder for the terminal https://share.google/TBp3pVaFngBTfaFyO
Someone smarter than me who is more familiar with TUI programming could almost certainly augment and improve what I wrote; I worked on it for as long as it was interesting to me. I use it for my home-built program launcher thing Sway, though most people would probably get better results with real fzf.
[1] https://github.com/Tombert/rs-fzf-clone/blob/main/src/helper... [2] https://github.com/Tombert/rs-fzf-clone/blob/main/src/proces...
But tmux isn't new
Is a reason necessarily needed to rewrite software in other languages
And frankly, to quote Knuth
This is true for any field, or any project. We're creative creatures. We dream and explore. Major changes almost never come from doing things the way they've always been done. A lot of times "just because" gives you the freedom to try new things and challenge those paradigms. Weirdly, if you always have to justify everything you slow down progress.To me it sounds like you learned a real important lesson one that some people never seem to learn.
I think one of the most beneficial aspects of doing things "just because" is these other skills or information you get along the way. It is very easy to miss all of this progress if you're too focused on the progress of the more tangible things. But that doesn't make any of that not progress. So don't put yourself down for that, because I'm sure you learned a lot. The only reason you can look back and see a better way is because you made that progress and learned those lessons. These are things mentors can usually help you get through faster but not everyone has a mentor nor access to one. But don't undermine your own progress just because you didn't finish projects or because you did things differently than others
I treat projects differently if they want to launch a product, they want to replace an established open source tool, done for fun for themselves, or if it’s a hobby project.
interesting, I'm new to rust. what are you doing that necessitates using unsafe?
C pointers can have as many owners as you want, may be subjected to mathematical operations, and can be cast to any type without even an error message. The compiler will just assume you know what you're doing. If you enable enough compiler warnings, it might warn you, but C compilers don't generate a lot of those by default.
Rust will let you only generate one mutable (exclusive) reference at a time. This means straight C to Rust ports simply don't compile.
By switching to pointers, which work pretty much like their C equivalent, you can port the code much easier, but you do of course lose the benefits of Rust's safety mechanisms, because most pointer operations throw away all the safety guarantee that Rust provides.
Safe Rust includes many forms of shared mutability, including Cell<> which is perhaps the closest comparison to typical patterns in C code.
Edit: apparently it did turn out to be a lot of unsafe code
> the code base is now 100% (unsafe) Rust
I didn't interpret that it's 100% unsafe, but I do expect that to mean there is probably a lot of unsafe blocks used. A good amount of the example code in the post alone is unsafe blocks as well.
Every new project is bound to have bugs that need to be ironed out during the time.
You'd have to do a proper rewrite, in which case you could write safe code from the start.
> Every new project is bound to have bugs that need to be ironed out during the time.
Not on the level of the kind of critical security and reliability bugs that unsafe languages foster. That's why CISA and the FBI both strongly recommend memory-safe languages.
Or copies of old things apparently.
I've been working on a Rust-based tmux session manager called rmuxinator (i.e. tmuxinator clone) for a few years now. It (mostly) works and been slow going because ... life but I've recently picked it back up to fix some bugs. One of the last new features I'd added was the ability to use rmuxinator as a library in other Rust programs. I'd like to try forking tmux-rs, adding rmuxinator as a dependency and seeing if it would ... just work as a way to start sessions using per-project config files. I'm definitely not advocating for adding rmuxinator upstream but it would be very nice to have this sort of session templating baked into the "terminal multiplexer" itself.
The other interesting possibility I could foresee is doing things the other way around and having rmuxinator use tmux-rs as a library in order to setup and manage sessions instead of just dumping out shell commands -- which is fraught with edge cases. (Not sure if this is currently possible with tmux-rs, though.)
Once I wrap up the bugfixes I'm currently working on, I may fork this project and give one or both of the above a try.
Regardless, nice work by richardscollin!
It seems automatically translating Rust to C is not a very good idea: "I threw away all of the C2Rust output and decided I would translate all of the files into Rust manually from C.". Neither seems doing it manually: "I introduced many bugs while translating the code. I’d like to share the process of discovering and fixing a couple." Or using AI: "That’s because when using cursor to translate the code it would still occasionally insert bugs, just like me. So, I spent as much time reviewing the generated code as it would have taken me to write it myself."
As a hobby project, all power to you. But otherwise, maybe better not rewrite working code....
https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/pull/115762
https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/pull/115743
https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/pull/115733
https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/pull/115732
Or was that comment just a cop-out because Copilot’s results were complete nonsense?
Except that the eventual result allows for extension and improvements in a memory-safe language.
1. anything running in tmux already has execution rights and typically for the same user as tmux anyway.
2. Anyone who wanted to exploit tmux could just run ‘tmux -C’ and automatically get access to literally every interaction within tmux.
3. The software itself is already damn stable. I've never had it crash.
If you’re worried about someone exploiting your terminal then tmux is a terrible option, irrespective of whether it’s with written in C or Rust. And I say this as someone who absolutely loves tmux and uses it every day.
[edit]
And if you're worried about non-security related bugs affecting UX, then a rewrite in any language, regardless of the language, is a worse solution if your application has already been battle-tested for close to two decades. You're much better off creating something entirely new instead of porting code from one language to another because at least then you have new ideas instead of the same application but with new bugs in different places.
I don't say this because of some bias that Rust fanboys will assume I have. I love memory safe languages and think Rust is a great option for new projects. The point I'm making here is that a rewrite doesn't gain much for tmux SPECIFICALLY because tmux is already extremely stable.
In fact the author of this project has admitted that they've introduced bugs with their rewrite. I know it's a hobby project so I'm not being critical of their work. But if we're only interested in reducing bugs then rewriting an existing project isn't the right way to go. Something like Zellij makes more sense because it's offering something new in addition to being written in Rust.
I honestly don't get this relentless defense of 1970s-style programming. Do you think C is the pinnacle of programming language design? No? Then what's your point, exactly?
Have you actually ever encountered such a bug in tmux though? Because I've been using it for around 15 years and can honestly say I haven't.
Yet this rewrite has introduced bugs. I know it's a hobby project so I'm not being critical. But if you're just trying to reduce bugs then rewriting code battle tested code in another language, regardless of that language, isn't the right way to go.
> I honestly don't get this relentless defense of 1970s-style programming. Do you think C is the pinnacle of programming language design? No? Then what's your point, exactly?
Where was I defending 1970s style programming? I wasn't even defending C. In fact the last project I've worked on based in either C or C++ was 10 years ago. Believe me, I'm a fan of memory safe languages ;)
My point was very clear and very specific to tmux. You're just trying to read between the lines and create a whole new argument where there was none.
No comments yet
Another comment in this thread hoped for "a brand new bulletproof tmux-resurrect". The reason there's a desire for such things is closely related to the limitations of non-trivial programs written in C.
They're harder to extend without bugs, harder for new team members to understand, and so on.
The "irrational obsession" has to do with advancing the state of the art beyond a primitive high-level assembler that was developed in the 1970s.
I maintain cargo-nextest, a widely-used test runner for Rust. It is possible to write nextest's runner loop in C, but it would be extraordinarily difficult — each test's state machine has dozens of states, there are several dynamic event sources as inputs, and the event loop relies heavily on epoll/kqueue/the equivalent Windows thing, as abstracted out by Tokio. So most test runners written in C don't even try to approach the quality, reliability, or portability of nextest.
https://nexte.st/docs/design/architecture/runner-loop/
It is possible to do this in C, because it compiles to machine code in the end. But would be out of reach for all but the most talented of C teams working over many years, and the portability costs would be massive. As a result, I don't know of a test runner that comes anywhere close to the feature set and portability of nextest that's written in C.
> I think you have no idea how big the C ecosystem is.
I'm definitely aware that the C ecosystem is much larger than the Rust ecosystem.
You're welcome to peruse the design documents:
https://nexte.st/docs/design/architecture/runner-loop/ (already linked above)
https://nexte.st/docs/design/architecture/signal-handling/
https://nexte.st/docs/design/architecture/input-handling/
I find Rust fun and easy for writing system-level code, and I have enormous appreciation for the degree of correctness-by-construction that it can provide. Generally, if it builds, it works, as long as you're making proper use of the type system - make illegal states unrepresentable, as the saying goes. That's very difficult to do with C.
Rust isn't perfect. For most things, I'd rather be using Haskell, ML, or something on that level. But it's still on a completely different level from C, and rewriting the software ecosystem in it can only be an improvement.
Embed, designated initialization, and constexpr are really nice adds.
Statistically it is the most fun language there is, based on Stackoverflow. Portability is just a matter of time like with any language.
It was born in the 1970s and was standardized in the 80s and 90s. It continues to develop. Numerous data types have been added, along with unicode and threads. The C23 standard was released last year.
There comes a point at which it becomes necessary to move on.
All of these languages are Turing complete. So ultimately, if you're happy writing code in some language and don't want to change, that's your choice. But the reason Fortran or C or C++ isn't many people's first choice for new projects are closely related to the reasons I've mentioned. There will always be people who want to stick to what they know, but it's not only science that advances one funeral at a time.
C's lack of memory safety covers a broad range of concerns, including manual memory management, unrestricted pointers, null pointers (Tony Hoare's "billion dollar mistake"), buffer overflows, use-after-free, integer promotions, and so on.
Its weak type system is another fundamental limitation, closely related to its limited support for abstraction. The weakness of the standard library reflects this. The weak type system means that the static guarantees it provides are minimal. There were excuses for all this in 1975, there aren't any more.
Undefined behavior is more of an issue in C than in most languages. Again, not something you ideally want in a systems language.
Language-level concurrency support is virtually nonexistent.
Use of textual preprocessing, with limited semantic integration, as a language feature. Aside from the effects on the meaning of source code, it also makes building C programs more complex.
And again, the reason C23 hasn't addressed any of this significantly is because of fundamental limitations in the nature of the language. You can't "fix" these things without developing a new language.
tmux has existed for approaching 18 years, and M. Marriott is still actively improving it as of last week. One can actually look at its record over that time, and, if that record is poor, replace proof by unsupported generalized assertion with proof based upon actual evidence.
* https://cvedetails.com/product/20683/Nicholas-Marriott-Tmux....
That is still quite a good record, but my statement stands. It is supported by decades of my experience working in C-derived languages. You don't have to accept my experience or believe my statement, of course, it's all the same to me.
...and before someone moans that I'm a C-fanboy, I'm really not. I've been writing software exclusively in memory-safe languages for 10+ years now. But I'm also pragmatic about when arguments about a RiR (rewrite-in-rust) are sensible and when they're not. In tmux's specific case, arguing about security misses the point.
Also dev time is massively shorter and the time I gain is spent on adding more features and tests.
Would recommend building low level projects in something like zig, if you care about build time and don’t want to use a dependency for everything.
Here I want to call out zellij. Zellij is rust based terminal multiplexer.
I am user not creator. I love everything rust and finding and migrating to rust based solutions where feasible.
Given the traction you got here and the advancements in AI, I'm sure this can become a very attractive hobby project for Rust beginners, there's probably a lot of easy bugs to fix. Fixing bugs, adding new features, and optimizing the code is all you need.
Here's an idea to get the ball rolling: Create a scratch buffer for Gemini CLI (or your favorite LLM) and enable it to interact with the various windows and panes of the tmux session.
Here's my use case, I use synchronized panes to send the commands into multiple servers, but some commands sometimes fail for various reasons. What if I can just ask the AI to send a series of commands and react based on the output and adjust along the way. It's like a dynamically generated custom shell script on the fly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWMQ-g2QDsI
Some of that video is about stuff you have no use for if you're not a Rust developer, but, some of it is things that would be just as useful to anybody who is comfortable with, as it says, a command line interface.
0. https://codemod.com/ 1. https://martinfowler.com/articles/codemods-api-refactoring.h...
That’s specific.
[1] https://github.com/zellij-org/zellij/issues/694
Like they’ve basically thrown away all the rust patterns and just wrote a c program in rust (eg all the raw pointers)
Sorry I know this is not the place to complain, but it would be so nice!
Ctrl-Tab probably won't work because terminals tend not to recognize it as different from Tab. But you might be able to bind Alt-Tab or some other such combo to cycle through panes in the tmux config. It should just be a one-liner.
bind-key -n C-Space select-pane -t +1
Love it. You definitively deserve your +350 points!
And as a result, you could be running the greatest / fastest / most feature rich desktop terminal … but if your multiplier doesn’t support something - it hinders your fancy desktop terminal.
Short 3 min video explained by Ghostty creator
https://youtu.be/o-qtso47ECk
I have often executed `pkill -9 tmux` and saved my day. I hope the rust version can help a bit here?
Looking forward to check out tmux-rs.
I entirely stopped using tmux when I couldn't use iTerm.
Have you checked out the website? This is a c2rust project. The Rust code is full of unsafe code and probably buggier than the C version, and let us not even mention readability and maintainability. Maybe there is a joke somewhere.
> I threw away all of the C2Rust output and decided I would translate all of the files into Rust manually from C.
The talk about starting with it, realizing it was too rough and changed approach. It's unsafe rust now but next goal at end was a safe version.
Have you read the conclusion, BTW?
Which makes C2Rust seem pretty useless?
"I’ve recently reached a big milestone: the code base is now 100% (unsafe) Rust. I’d like to share the process of porting the original codebase from ~67,000 lines of C code to ~81,000 lines of Rust (excluding comments and empty lines)."
And yet somehow a hand-ported (and still unsafe) rewrite of a C program in Rust is still almost 20% larger?
If I recall, the Go gc compiler was automatically converted from 80K lines of C to 80K lines of Go. A hand-ported version would have been much smaller.
It does what took him 6 months in seconds. Of course it isn't perfect, failing to keep the name of constants being an obvious flaw. But presumably with a few improvements you could then spend some of that 6 months cleaning up the code and still save time. Sounds like C2Rust is almost there, but not quite yet.
> And yet somehow a hand-ported (and still unsafe) rewrite of a C program in Rust is still almost 20% larger?
Size is not a very useful metric. But the port is still half-done. He has got it working in Rust, so now he is ready to do the "hard" part of the port and actually rewrite the "basically C" code into idiomatic Rust. That is where you expect to get safety improvements and hopefully more readable code.
It generated unusuable garbage code in seconds, which is nothing like what he wrote by hand in six months.
"Size is not a very useful metric."
Yes, size is a very useful metric. Counting tokens is more accurate but lines of code is a good first approximation.
The entire purpose of high level languages is to make it possible to do more with less code. Size isn't all that matters but it's very important.
Rust code is not only more verbose than C it's also much more irregular and complex. That 20% increase in lines of code is probably more like 50% increase in code complexity, and this is without safety.
Just compare tokens in the post's example:
120 comments and nobody has mentioned the use-after-free triggered by closing a window. Rust truly is the safest language.
you want to re-implement a well known project, fine
call it something else
Sounds to me that this was a C -> Rust transpiler. :D
Edit: I was right, they used c2rust.
And then there is "// generated Rust code".
As for the code snippets on https://richardscollin.github.io/tmux-rs/, I can read the C version better than the generated Rust code.
Please let me know which one is more readable to you.It is auto-generated with the purpose of maintaining the exact same semantics as the C code, with no regard to safety, best practices, etc.—of course it is messier than actual, handwritten Rust.
As c2rust says in its documentation [1], it's meant to be the first step in an otherwise manual and incremental port of a codebase from C to Rust, and the author recognizes this in their closing remarks:
> The next goal is to convert the codebase to safe Rust.
[1] https://github.com/immunant/c2rust/raw/master/docs/c2rust-ov...
Have you read the conclusion, by the way?
It is probably going to end up being vaporware.
Edit: As pointed out below, I'm stupid, it's stated in the article and I didn't read that part
To a business, time your developers spend learning things (the hard way) is wasted.
To a hobbyist, taking the time to learn things is time well-spent.
The only reason this is at the top of HN is because of where Rust is on the Gartner Hype Cycle right now.
It's neat, but I wouldn't say useful.
Transitioning more software from C to Rust is a great idea.
These problems are largely solved now that there's a working transpiler from Rust to C - https://github.com/FractalFir/rustc_codegen_clr
If you're going to move a project to rust, you'd want to actually make it look like rust. Currently it looks like C written in rust. That doesn't make anyone happy really.
(Obv. not a slight on the maintainer here, it's a personal project with a specific approach)
I wonder, I don't expect.
This would require first for the Rust implementation to grow beyond a POC with code translation. In its current state I doubt it could entice any of the original authors or maintainers. But if it became capable and hardened and picked up velocity, then it would pose some major questions for having two similar pieces of software.
> https://github.com/richardscollin/tmux-rs/issues/9
> 120 comments and nobody has mentioned the use-after-free triggered by closing a window. Rust truly is the safest language.
My dotfiles at https://github.com/nickjj/dotfiles have an install script to automatically get everything (including tmux w/ plugins) set up on Debian, Ubuntu, Arch Linux or macOS. This includes native Linux and WSL 2 support.
I was hoping for the announcement of a brand new bulletproof tmux-resurrect.
But no, it is (just) tmux-(recodedIn)rust.
In fact, I sometimes port code to another language and back just as a way to do code cleanup (or at least give ideas for things that could be cleaned up)
I wonder why OP didn't start from that as a starting point?
Now I really wonder how a good model like Sonnet 4 would have performed.
https://richardscollin.github.io/tmux-rs/#ai-tools
> I did start trying out Cursor towards the end of the development process. I ended up stopping using it though because I felt like it didn’t actually increase my speed. It only saved me from finger pain. That’s because when using cursor to translate the code it would still occasionally insert bugs, just like me. So, I spent as much time reviewing the generated code as it would have taken me to write it myself. The only thing it saved was my hands. Doing this large amount of refactoring is really hard on your fingers.
What do you mean by this? I'd assume the process would be very very incremental. One function + accompany tests at a time, verify and continue and keep moving up the tree.
It's an interesting problem because I imagine in the future lots of things will be ported like this.
-edit Good luck reading 100k lines of Claude generated Rust that you know nothing about lol. LLMS are not the tool for this.