The Economist's Scam Inc podcast (mentioned elsewhere in this discussion too) has fascinating (and very troubling) insights into this.
I have sons heading to college this and next year and I have tried to prepare them for the world of scamming that exists out there. I sure hope I've done enough.
Just a few minutes ago I had a scam text that pig butchering begins. I typically delete them immediately but this time just to see what happens I wrote back in several languages aggressively counter-offering to teach them how to buy crypto. I got a puzzled response, then a picture of a waifish asian woman on restaraunt balcony, I think it's AI generated, but it doesn't matter, and then after me clearly not biting a "Fuck you". I wrote "I feel for you doing pig butchering, but its not going to work here", translated it to Chinese and sent that, and got back another "Fuck you", this time in Chinese. ... Now that I typed this out, I realize this was kind of pointless exchange
dghlsakjg · 1h ago
Your kids are far more likely to fall for dumb shit their friends talk them into than random texts.
They will be, or already have been, exposed to people telling them that crypto/leveraged day trading/AI/whatever is the shortcut to wealth. That will likely be their peers, or the people (podcasters) that have high status amongst their peers, and is a much more insidious problem. That's what will get them into trouble.
alyandon · 1h ago
You wasted their time delaying them moving on to someone else. Mission accomplished.
No comments yet
supportengineer · 4h ago
I thought that US banks had to know their customers
coderatlarge · 4h ago
US banks are too busy delaying their customers’ ach transfers for days so they can profit from the float to actually solve customer problems and take responsibility for the many societal benefits they enjoy.
supportengineer · 23m ago
I recently tried to write a check from Mom & Pop's Yeehaw Bank to a major name bank. They put a FIVE DAY hold on it.
0cf8612b2e1e · 1h ago
I honestly want slower transactions as a service. If I get hacked, my accounts are going to be drained in milliseconds. Instead, I want specific accounts to have a minimum N days to money extraction. Lots of time for me to be able to put a halt on unexpected money movement.
I've seen a "pay me a few bucks and I'll do it instantly", so pretty sure it's not a technical issue. It's a "we can charge a few bucks if we don't fix it" issue.
fredfish · 1h ago
I had a bank VP tell me Bill Clinton fixed the US' deficit by moving tax settling to be immediate on them. The strings of my little fiddle broke.
unboxingelf · 4h ago
KYC only hurts law abiding citizens.
Criminals just use stolen identities (from breaches of KYC data).
adrr · 1h ago
Depends on the level of KYC. If you're just doing social and birthdate, its easy to bypass. You could add additional checks like check phone and email which are readily available from data brokers. You could send a physical mail to the address in the credit report with a PIN. It depends on level of the level friction you want your KYC program to go. When I built a KYC at a neobank, we focused more on verifying that you were in the US. We could detect proxies and if you make the signup in a mobile app, you can pin the cert which will stop automated attacks. We relied on fingerprinting devices but a lot of methods don't work due to mobile OS providers cracking down on them.
mouse_ · 3h ago
Gotta love anarcho tyranny
downrightmike · 2h ago
I had to look it up: The term "anarcho-tyranny" was coined by writer Sam Francis to describe a situation where a state oppresses citizens' lives but is unable or unwilling to enforce laws that protect them. Francis believed that anarcho-tyranny is built into the managerial system and cannot be solved by voting out incumbents or fighting corruption. He argued that the political left has dominated politics because of a progressive managerial class that has increased state power and bureaucratization, while eroding the power of other authorities. Francis believed that the only way to restore sanity was to devolve power back to law-abiding citizens.
Francis also used the term to describe an armed dictatorship without rule of law. Some commentators have used the term to describe situations where governments focus on confiscating weapons instead of stopping looters. Thomas Fleming has described anarcho-tyranny as "law without order" and suggested that people should follow the advice of a boxing referee and protect themselves at all times.
But in reality it was the right that was setting us up for failure all this time, going back to at least Reagan as California's governor reducing funding to schools. Then Nixon doubled down.
Whoppertime · 49m ago
https://www.cato.org/blog/new-k-12-productivity-chart
It's hard to believe that education is getting less funding. There seems to be a perception that spending more money on education will result in smarter students or higher test scores but that doesn't seem to be the case. There is more money spent on educating children through K-12. Also Richard Nixon was president before Ronald Reagan so Nixon wouldn't be able to double down on his successors policies. Unless you mean Governor Ronald Reagan who started his leadership in 1967 with Nixon's presidency starting in 1969
tantalor · 2h ago
The best defense to scams is to not fall for scams.
throwaway48476 · 1h ago
The best defense to scams is maintaining a high trust society.
fallingknife · 1h ago
The left has done more damage you our education system by removing standards and getting rid of separate schools for the smartest students than the right ever could by cutting funding. Most recently in California they got rid of calculus class in high school. Meanwhile we continue to increase spending and are near the highest in the world and our education system is trash https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd/education-exp...
throwawayq3423 · 2h ago
They don't if they don't have to.
dfxm12 · 1h ago
The banks have some responsibility here, and the article brings this up. The banks' response involved saying they can't keep up with volume and shifts blame to social media for some reason.
You gotta understand, there's the law, then there's enforcement of laws, then there's punishments for getting caught breaking the law. The banks have done the math. Maybe they've even lobbied to have the penalties/enforcers reduced. It doesn't pay for them to follow this law strictly, so they don't. You'll find this across the legal system. It comes down hard on the poor and marginalized, but gives a lot of grace to the rich, even if at our expense.
csense · 4h ago
> In October, the U.K. began requiring banks to reimburse scam victims up to £85,000, or about $116,000, per claim when they make a fraudulent payment on behalf of their customers, even if the customers authorized the transfer.
How does the bank verify the scammer and the "victim" aren't colluding?
I.e. Mal opens a bank account with $100k, it gets cleaned out when he's "scammed" by Eve, then Mal is reimbursed $100k. Mal & Eve collectively start with $100k, and end up with $200k.
(This is why I put "victim" in quotes: In this scenario, Eve and Mal are co-conspirators trying to defraud the scam reimbursement system.)
ljm · 1h ago
They’re pretty on-the-ball with fraud. People are commonly scammed into being a money mule (basically being sent money and then being asked to send it on to another account, with the promise of payment) and they get locked out.
They’re not going to just take your word at being scammed, either, and the police are going to be involved for it to even get off the ground.
To add to that - there are several barriers to taking out large amounts of cash. You can’t just walk into a bank and pull out £10k, no questions asked, because of the likelihood of it being part of a scam.
rafram · 3h ago
Yeah, but the scammer could also just walk into the bank and pass the teller a note telling them to hand over all the money in the drawer. They'd do it! But it would be theft and the scammer would be arrested, just like if they did what you're suggesting.
weird-eye-issue · 3h ago
It's cute if you really think that
These days you can open bank accounts completely online with fraudulent info
You can even open bank accounts from countries on the other side of the world. How will they arrest you, exactly?
tim333 · 2h ago
They won't "reimburse scam victims" on the other side of the world. They are probably reluctant to reimburse at all unless you are some granny in Croydon making a fuss in the newspapers.
rafram · 3h ago
It's on the bank to prevent those other-side-of-the-world account holders from sending large sums of money to untrusted destinations in the first place.
pjc50 · 2h ago
Like the real scams, this does require that Mal be overseas in some place where they can't easily be traced. And of course if the money ever comes back to Eve's bank account, someone might notice. So this requires quite a complicated setup which is hard to achieve between people in different countries because .. one might scam the other.
tim333 · 2h ago
The reimbursing thing is quite new and at least one of the parties has to be UK resident to get UK compensation. That would leave the UK resident at risk of jail. Usually the scammers like to be somewhere well offshore.
fallingknife · 1h ago
Even if the customer authorized the transaction? So now all the customers have to pay higher fees to cover for idiots getting scammed. Is the Bank of England going to start refunding people who get scammed out of cash under the mattress?
tantalor · 2h ago
Ummm, am I the only one who thinks if it was not an authorized payment, I expect 100% recompense, not limited to £85k.
hombre_fatal · 4h ago
Fwiw the word “colluding” already describes why victim was emphasized.
This is an earnest request. Please help me understand the mindset of people who fall for pig butchering scams.
The thought of giving money to a stranger who I met via a dating app or other social media platform who shifted the conversation to WeChat and asked me to wire money to a bank account is so incomprehensible to me that the mind of someone who would do that is entirely different to how mine is constructed physically, chemically, and electrically to such a degree that it is difficult for me to even believe that it exists.
I am not even particularly financially literate. In college. I barely scraped by my statistics class, took no finance or business classes, and the only formal financial literacy education I have ever received was a single one hour course given to me by the US Army in late 2001 when they announced the TSP (401k for military) was coming where the only takeaways were “compounding interest is magic” and “put your money into a retirement account and don’t look at it until you’re a decade out from retirement”.
To me, believing an unsolicited stranger who is offering you an investment opportunity like what pig butchering scams are will make you rich is the same exact thing as walking out of a rundown gas station that also sells nunchucks, bongs, and ninja throwing stars with a little baggie of pills that have a tiger on the label thinking that they’ll turn you a super sex machine.
Is it desperation?
Profound financial illiteracy that exceeds mine by several orders of magnitude?
bag_boy · 2h ago
I am happy to share my mom's story, as tragic as it is.
My stepfather passed away just before Covid. After he passed away, my mom was isolated and started spending time on Match.com.
Eventually she found her match - a total scamming operation.
She proceeded to liquidate my deceased step father's retirement savings and also took out high interest loans to send her match money.
She wired the scammer well over $100k. The high interest loans totally ruined her life.
They were using a US bank. She was using Wells Fargo.
She is/was:
1. Desperate for attention
2. Prone to deception
3. Tech illiterate - some of the photos the scammer sent her were so obviously photoshopped
Happy to share more if it's helpful. It's been one of the most difficult things to deal with throughout my life, but I hope that our story can be helpful to someone else.
os2warpman · 1h ago
I think I understand. Thank you and I'm sorry.
nemomarx · 3h ago
They butter you up for a long while before they get to the offer - that's the distinction from normal scams. They act as a friend and confidant for weeks, maybe flirt, and when the pig is "raised" they move to the slaughtering process
so it's not a stranger, it's "your close online friend says they have a good retirement fund and it might do better than yours, would you try it out?"
jabroni_salad · 3h ago
I do think social desperation is real and does a number on some people. There are people out there in the world who will enter fairy tale love story mode if the right sequence of words reaches them as if they were some kind of self destructive sleeper agent.
A lot of these people lived decent rational lives and should know better. They are college educated and had good careers and large retirement accounts and made all the right financial decisions to lead a good life. But then some stranger pretends to misdial your number and reads a script about how they feel like they really connected with you. You get 'activated' and enter an irrational universe where you can be convinced to send your money away and keep the relationship a secret from everyone you know and lie to your bank about why you are withdrawing anything and who knows what else.
I like to think I am immune to this but who knows what I will be in 30 years. I make a living by being distrusting (security) and got activated as a good boglehead at a really young age. Or maybe the stupid-juice will suffuse my brain at age 70 and I'll give it all away to a cute AI voice that robodials me after decades of not answering any call that isn't already in my contacts, and everybody who knows me will be mystified as to why, including myself.
tim333 · 2h ago
I chatted a bit to one of them trying to get money from me and it was quite subtle. Blah blah I make money in crypto why don't you try I'll show you what to do and then instead of going to say mexc which is a real exchange it would be to mexx or some such which is a clone they've made. It would actually semi function and show profits encouraging the punter to stake more not realizing it was a fake exchange.
I didn't send money to the mexx.com site but I did send some to a site called ftx.com which pulled a more subtle scam. Got that refunded eventually.
schmookeeg · 3h ago
The Economist has an interesting podcast about this phenomenon called Scam Inc. You need to be a subscriber to hear more than the first few eps, but they were interesting and went into this situation in detail. Worth a listen to understand this crime and its nuance a little better.
saltcured · 2h ago
Hah, this is too close to the joke that popped into my head:
Sure, we can explain how this works, you just need to subscribe to our educational series on the topic...
It's all about framing the con in a way that gets past the defense mechanisms the OP assumes. Whether this is done with synthetic intimacy, urgency, exclusivity, high-mindedness, etc. depends on the target victim profile.
But, it's always social engineering. The only 100% defense is to assume a deeply untrusting posture that makes social living nearly impossible.
schmookeeg · 50m ago
haha, it's getting dystopian isn't it? At some point you end up letting your guard down just to be a human again -- it's all so exhausting.
While I've been an Econ subscriber in the past when magazines were a thing, the podcast didn't con me into subscribing. _this time_ But I enjoyed their free eps all the same.
rikthevik · 3h ago
The Beatles had it right with Eleanor Rigby.
"All the lonely people, where do they all come from? All the lonely people, where do they all belong?"
There are a lot of sad people out there. And some of them are at the nunchucks, bongs, and throwing stars store.
jowea · 3h ago
Maybe it's trusting a personal connection and word of mouth over mainstream information because of some vague anti-establishment feelings? I also don't know really. I mean, even a small bank CEO fell for one https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/cryptocurrenc...
rectang · 2h ago
Please help me to understand the urge to blame pig butchering on pigs rather than on butchers.
rightbyte · 2h ago
I think you are looking at it from the wrong direction. The scammers are calling everyone.
Of those you have met, who would be at risk of falling for such scams? I know about maybe two.
And the combination of being both susceptible and not chronic broke is quite rare. Both those I know about who I guess fall for this stuff are broke.
PaulHoule · 2h ago
By "everyone" I'd say that if any social or comms platform allows DMs you will get messages that say something like like "Hey!" from those scammers. If you reply you will get questions meant to qualify you like "How old are you?" pretty quick and if you pass they'll work you over for months
To be fair, if Troy Hunt, who's made his career in cybersecurity can get scammed, thinking you're too smart to ever fall for a scam is just pure hubris.
rightbyte · 2h ago
If am referring to pig butchering scams, not phising attacks or scams in general.
I would e.g. instantly enter my username and password at work into any prompt that requests and looks as usual since Microsoft request my system password randomly all the time theough webpages. It is not my fault...
lesuorac · 2h ago
> The thought of giving money to a stranger who I met via a dating app or other social media platform
The thought of telling somebody your real name to somebody online used to be considered a poor decision.
The bar has really moved for what people need for trust.
burkaman · 2h ago
It is also incomprehensible to most victims, before and even after it happens to them. Many people never report the crime because they're so embarrassed and cannot explain their own behavior. If you talk to them about it they usually won't defend their decisions, they'll say something like "I know it doesn't make sense, I don't understand why I did it and I see now that the scam is blindingly obvious, I don't know what happened".
Desperation and loneliness are often a part of it, and these scams happen over a period of months, so at the critical moment it doesn't feel (emphasis on "feel") like you're talking to a stranger at all. These criminal organizations have done this thousands and thousands of times, they know how to emotionally manipulate someone away from thinking objectively about the situation. They just have to catch someone at a vulnerable moment and get them talking for a day or two, and already they aren't a stranger anymore, they're "a guy I've been talking to", and they just build up the relationship for weeks or months before they even bring up money or investing.
This is also a good blog post about how even someone extremely knowledgeable about technology and fraud can be easily scammed if you just catch them at the right time: https://pluralistic.net/2024/02/05/cyber-dunning-kruger/. It can happen to you too, you are not immune just because these victims seem like morons to you. They seem like morons to themselves too, but it still happened.
hedora · 3h ago
If you target 100,000 people, a 0.01% response rate ends up being a lot of money.
SpicyLemonZest · 3h ago
The trick is that they don't feel like an unsolicited stranger. The stories you read about these scams summarize away weeks or months of talking, flirting, maybe falling in love a little bit, until they're not a stranger but your very cute and very rich friend.
What does work is an absolute, ironclad rule that I do not trust and am not friends with anyone I meet online until we've met multiple times in person. But there's a lot of lonely people out there who don't find that rule so easy.
0cf8612b2e1e · 3h ago
I think of it like the xz backdoor. A long time investment of goodwill over months before you tighten the noose.
The more sophisticated attempts seemingly do not straight up ask for cash. They offer an investment opportunity on a scam website which will report the investment doing well, so the victim will independently invest more money.
JTbane · 2h ago
>What does work is an absolute, ironclad rule that I do not trust and am not friends with anyone I meet online until we've met multiple times in person
That's a good rule and should be common sense for all internet users.
renewiltord · 2h ago
I know two people in my network who this happened to. One is the elderly father of a friend who has dementia who was told that his friend in Asia had a business opportunity (they actually collected this money in person in San Jose). The other is a young woman whose mother is a member of the CCP (as many in China are) and who was told that she had to do this or her mother would face consequences there.
I found both situations unbelievable but I can see how. Two situations which turned out legitimate were:
* I was in a bad accident and there was a settlement which was intended to go to the insurer but went to me instead. The subrogation claim eventually made it to me and I was informed via phone. I told them to send the docs etc. and contacted the insurer to ensure this was their guys. It was and I paid (perhaps more than I should have but not all that I received)
* About half the time I send a big wire on Chase, they call me to confirm details and this and that. I always say "I shouldn't really be doing this, right? Can you tell me how I can call you?" and they tell me to go on the site and find the number etc. etc.
So it seems there are many cases where the fake seeming is legit. These two were drowned in a large number of other scam phone calls, admittedly, and I must confess that hearing an Indian accent with a Western name now sets off my alarm bells.
anonnon · 3h ago
I've only heard of "pig butchering" scams in the context of people who pose as family/friends of people on social media whom they target with urgent requests for money, e.g.:
> I've been arrested/kidnapped/lost my wallet
the scammers create a flase sense of urgency and exploit the victim's concern for their loved one's well-being.
toast0 · 2h ago
IMHO, that's not really 'pig butchering', that's another category; FTC calls it 'family emergency scamming'.
To me, pig butchering is a long term process where the victim is convinced that a new contact is a trusted friend, and then the trusted friend needs money for (transportation, investment, living arrangements, etc). The symbolism being that the victim is a pig that is fattened up via building up a relationship, and then butchered via the demand for money.
seatac76 · 4h ago
So pig butchering based out of SEA is now the dominant scam form? It’s crazy how quickly this came to dominate the landscape.
IncreasePosts · 3h ago
Probably having AI increases the efficiency of this operation substantially, since it is heavily personalized and requires a lot of long term, non-paying effort on the part of the scammer . Either from directly replying to messages, or from automatically developing dossiers from victims social media profiles so you know what topics get them going.
throwaway48476 · 1h ago
This will continue to happen until all foreign transactions are insured and reversible.
tempodox · 2h ago
On the side of the banks, whatever happened to KYC?
No comments yet
djoldman · 1h ago
AMLKYC always seemed obviously backward or ridiculous to me. The fact that banks are essentially tasked with enforcing laws is... a crutch to say the least.
Analogies are by definition imperfect but:
1. why not point the finger at ATT and Verizon for allowing phone calls and IP packets that facilitated crime?
2. toll road owners, car/truck manufacturers, UPS, USPS, should they be tasked with "knowing" more about their customers?
All this just ends up blaming the victim and doesn't really fix the problem while having massive collateral damage like folks having their bank accounts closed for no good reason and causing real losses to actual businesses.
What's the solution? I'm not sure. Perhaps it begins with holding countries more to account for the actions of their resident criminals.
dfxm12 · 1h ago
The government gives plenty of help to banks. I don't think their role here is unreasonable. The solution is to tighten/enforce regulations around bank accounts & make the penalties mean something. Two wrongs don't make a right. If you see something, say something. If you think telecoms are doing something wrong, write to the FCC. Bring up SIM hijacking for me. If you think toll road owners are doing something wrong, bring it up with them and maybe the FHWA.
throwaway48476 · 1h ago
This is what happens when a high trust society suddenly comes into contact with a low trust society. The systems that worked fine can't keep up with the scale of fraud.
busterarm · 4h ago
If you pick the right credit union, your experience will truly be so much better.
Even one as big as NFCU. I've never looked back since switching.
mschuster91 · 4h ago
I've said it before here, I'll say it again: it is high time that our governments follow the money and the scammers. Sanction the source countries of these scams to hell and beyond until they clean up their act and pray in front of us on their knees for forgiveness. And yes, I'd like particularly Narendra Modi to kneel - it's hard to wish anything else after watching more than two Scammer Payback videos. Obviously Indian police is aware of what's going on, he's posted more than enough proof, but mysteriously the callcenters get warned in time and vanish.
The US alone loses 158 billion $ each year [1] to scams, the global toll is allegedly around 1 trillion $ [2]. That's fucking insane, this has to stop.
> it is high time that our governments follow the money and the scammers
I suspect the reason they don't is many of them know that following the money will lead right to their own front doors.
coredog64 · 4h ago
Every dollar in scam damages verified by the FBI is one fewer work visa for anyone from that country. India is now in a hole of 1 billion (or 10,000 lakhs) work visas, and the latter are more valuable than scams.
No comments yet
commandlinefan · 2h ago
> Sanction the source countries
According to the article, this is originating in China - we're sanctioning them pretty hard as it is, and they don't seem to care that much.
throwaway48476 · 1h ago
Usually Chinese but not located in China proper.
mschuster91 · 51m ago
There's more scammers than just Myanmar, North Korea and China, that's why I explicitly mentioned Scammer Payback - he almost exclusively targets Indian scammers and even learned Hindi to understand the background talks of scammers.
throwaway48476 · 1h ago
Scamming is a large fraction of GDP in some countries.
geodel · 1h ago
Ironically or not but I'd imagine Trump would be appropriate person to give a proper dressing down to Modi via Truth Social if not through official channels.
As in past, the future US dispensation would be far more more decent to disturb peacock like dancing Modi.
anonnon · 3h ago
It's strange how some of these countries don't take action on their own behalf, if only to preserve their international reputation and the reputation of their citizens abroad. India is a great example. Do Indians not realize how much damage they've done to their reputation by allowing scam call centers to flourish? Are they not aware of
> DO NOT REDEEM
Imagine Americans living in small towns with few to no Indians, and their only association with Indian accents is someone trying to steal their (or their parents' or granparents') money.
EDIT: seatac76, your reply got shadowed; perhaps your entire account. Not sure why.
keutoi · 2h ago
_Allowing scam call centers to flourish_.
How much control does an average citizen have over these criminal enterprises? Does an average US citizen know/care/take-action when mercenaries from their country topple governments of other countries? As long as the crime is not visible, they just enjoy fruits of their crimes.
throwaway48476 · 1h ago
India claims to be a democracy.
anonnon · 2h ago
> How much control does an average citizen have over these criminal enterprises?
My point was about the government. This phenomenon is large enough that I'm shocked it hasn't openly caused a diplomatic rift between the US and India, and New Delhi should have a vested interested in combating it.
> when mercenaries from their country topple governments of other countries
What "mercenaries" are you referring to?
keutoi · 1h ago
Why would any country be proactive in combating this? Do you think US will be fair in return? US protects it's people even from International war crimes.
> This phenomenon is large enough that I'm shocked it hasn't openly caused a diplomatic rift between the US and India, and New Delhi should have a vested interested in combating it.
It is only large enough to you probably. India has been sanctioned by US in the 90s for doing reciprocal nuclear tests (after China detonated its bomb) and suffered billions of dollars in trade. US gained nothing from the sanctions except to push India into more poverty. It ended up being counter-productive. Even now Trump is threatening India with billions of dollars in trade sanctions that far outweighs anything caused by scams (if you take absolute numbers).
> What "mercenaries" are you referring to?
The CIA is currently fuelling and instigating Manipur riots in India by supplying arms and ammunitions to Kuki narco-terrorists. Prior to this we had USAID that was influencing electoral politics within India. Apart from that, we just witnessed regime change operations in Bangladesh where Pro-India Shiekh Hasina was toppled for a Pro-US Jihadi Muhammad Yunus. All of these run the US taxpayers in hundreds of billions of dollars. Far more than any scam conducted by Indian call centers.
For an average US citizen, sure it feels like a lot, since you guys are at the receiving end. But since you mentioned why US Government is not bringing this up, it is because it pales in comparison to what US Government has done to India over the past 7 decades. India can bring up a lot of counterpoints that will only cause US diplomats to shut up. We haven't even touched on killing of our nuclear scientists. Too many skeletons in their closet.
geodel · 1h ago
Do tell about those nuclear scientists. Seems you know quite a bit.
> Gregory Douglas, a journalist, conspiracy theorist,[128] forger,[129] and holocaust denier[130] who claimed to have conducted telephone conversations with former CIA operative Robert Crowley in 1993, published a book titled Conversations with the Crow in 2013. According to Douglas, Crowley claimed that the CIA was responsible for assassinating Homi Bhabha and Prime Minister Shastri in 1966, thirteen days apart, to thwart India's nuclear programme.[131]
Clearly, the GP is completely rational and quite well-informed.
anonnon · 1h ago
> India has been sanctioned by US in the 90s for doing reciprocal nuclear tests
For one year. 14 other countries sanctioned India too.
> The CIA is currently fuelling and instigating Manipur riots
I couldn't find anything on this besides articles on Indian/Bangladeshi InfoWars-tier websites.
> to what US Government has done to India over the past 7 decades
Like what?
throwaway_434 · 2h ago
> And yes, I'd like particularly Narendra Modi to kneel
Umm you are targeting the wrong person here. Majority of the scam call centers come from West Bengal, particularly Kolkata. Which is headed by Chief Minister Mamta Banerjee.
India has a federal structure, with cooperation between Center and States. Similar to USA. Modi just can't invade Kolkata using Indian Armed Forces and dismantle the operations without facing significant legal challenges in the Supreme Court of India.
West Bengal is a islamo-commie state. Nearly impossible to flip the state electorally for BJP to win (Narendra Modi heads BJP). The state is a stronghold of Mamta Banerjee who heads the TMC party. She came to power after nearly 4 decades of Communist rule.
mschuster91 · 54m ago
First of all, I didn't downvote you, and you provide valuable context, so if the downvoters would care to explain why I would be very happy.
> India has a federal structure, with cooperation between Center and States. Similar to USA. Modi just can't invade Kolkata using Indian Armed Forces and dismantle the operations without facing significant legal challenges in the Supreme Court of India.
There are ways in any federal system to force the cooperation of unwilling states. The US, infamously, threatened to withhold federal highway funding unless states raised the minimum drinking age to 21.
The federal government could also be transparent about hints of scammers they get and explain why the scammers are not being targeted. Particularly when the state in question is run by the opposition, I would expect the federal government party to use this as political ammunition.
The fact that there is zero such efforts visible leads me to the conclusion that Modi just doesn't give a fuck.
The US GDP is more than 27 trillion. If 158 billion is being lost. That's about .6% of the GDP. So, my question is, why does this have to stop? If it is stopped the benefits to the global population seems trivial. I'm sure at the individual level it is devastating. Good luck getting the national government to care about such a small percent.
ahmeneeroe-v2 · 3h ago
This is not a good financial analysis. Nearly any mature company would absolutely pursue 0.6% in cost reduction. That is a huge, juicy target.
jgeada · 3h ago
Because scams destroy trust in institutions, and trust in US institutions is already worryingly low. Without trust in institutions the system collapses.
bikecuck2 · 2h ago
"The total happiness in the world increased"
jmclnx · 4h ago
>A huge portion of such fraud is transacted in cryptocurrency.
Yet another reason to avoid cryptocurrency, until that is 100% fully regulated, I will always avoid it.
One of the biggest reason is every tom, dick or harry is creating their own cryptocurrency these days. Including the dummy in charge of the US :)
darth_avocado · 2h ago
A much bigger portion of the scam economy relies on gift cards than on crypto, yet we seem to be completely okay with gift cards.
bapak · 4h ago
I don't see how this is relevant at all and not just a rant about something you don't like.
People are asked to buy and send crypto, they're not the same people who know what crypto is.
I have sons heading to college this and next year and I have tried to prepare them for the world of scamming that exists out there. I sure hope I've done enough.
Just a few minutes ago I had a scam text that pig butchering begins. I typically delete them immediately but this time just to see what happens I wrote back in several languages aggressively counter-offering to teach them how to buy crypto. I got a puzzled response, then a picture of a waifish asian woman on restaraunt balcony, I think it's AI generated, but it doesn't matter, and then after me clearly not biting a "Fuck you". I wrote "I feel for you doing pig butchering, but its not going to work here", translated it to Chinese and sent that, and got back another "Fuck you", this time in Chinese. ... Now that I typed this out, I realize this was kind of pointless exchange
They will be, or already have been, exposed to people telling them that crypto/leveraged day trading/AI/whatever is the shortcut to wealth. That will likely be their peers, or the people (podcasters) that have high status amongst their peers, and is a much more insidious problem. That's what will get them into trouble.
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Criminals just use stolen identities (from breaches of KYC data).
But in reality it was the right that was setting us up for failure all this time, going back to at least Reagan as California's governor reducing funding to schools. Then Nixon doubled down.
You gotta understand, there's the law, then there's enforcement of laws, then there's punishments for getting caught breaking the law. The banks have done the math. Maybe they've even lobbied to have the penalties/enforcers reduced. It doesn't pay for them to follow this law strictly, so they don't. You'll find this across the legal system. It comes down hard on the poor and marginalized, but gives a lot of grace to the rich, even if at our expense.
How does the bank verify the scammer and the "victim" aren't colluding?
I.e. Mal opens a bank account with $100k, it gets cleaned out when he's "scammed" by Eve, then Mal is reimbursed $100k. Mal & Eve collectively start with $100k, and end up with $200k.
(This is why I put "victim" in quotes: In this scenario, Eve and Mal are co-conspirators trying to defraud the scam reimbursement system.)
They’re not going to just take your word at being scammed, either, and the police are going to be involved for it to even get off the ground.
To add to that - there are several barriers to taking out large amounts of cash. You can’t just walk into a bank and pull out £10k, no questions asked, because of the likelihood of it being part of a scam.
These days you can open bank accounts completely online with fraudulent info
You can even open bank accounts from countries on the other side of the world. How will they arrest you, exactly?
The thought of giving money to a stranger who I met via a dating app or other social media platform who shifted the conversation to WeChat and asked me to wire money to a bank account is so incomprehensible to me that the mind of someone who would do that is entirely different to how mine is constructed physically, chemically, and electrically to such a degree that it is difficult for me to even believe that it exists.
I am not even particularly financially literate. In college. I barely scraped by my statistics class, took no finance or business classes, and the only formal financial literacy education I have ever received was a single one hour course given to me by the US Army in late 2001 when they announced the TSP (401k for military) was coming where the only takeaways were “compounding interest is magic” and “put your money into a retirement account and don’t look at it until you’re a decade out from retirement”.
To me, believing an unsolicited stranger who is offering you an investment opportunity like what pig butchering scams are will make you rich is the same exact thing as walking out of a rundown gas station that also sells nunchucks, bongs, and ninja throwing stars with a little baggie of pills that have a tiger on the label thinking that they’ll turn you a super sex machine.
Is it desperation?
Profound financial illiteracy that exceeds mine by several orders of magnitude?
My stepfather passed away just before Covid. After he passed away, my mom was isolated and started spending time on Match.com.
Eventually she found her match - a total scamming operation.
She proceeded to liquidate my deceased step father's retirement savings and also took out high interest loans to send her match money.
She wired the scammer well over $100k. The high interest loans totally ruined her life.
They were using a US bank. She was using Wells Fargo.
She is/was:
1. Desperate for attention 2. Prone to deception 3. Tech illiterate - some of the photos the scammer sent her were so obviously photoshopped
Happy to share more if it's helpful. It's been one of the most difficult things to deal with throughout my life, but I hope that our story can be helpful to someone else.
so it's not a stranger, it's "your close online friend says they have a good retirement fund and it might do better than yours, would you try it out?"
A lot of these people lived decent rational lives and should know better. They are college educated and had good careers and large retirement accounts and made all the right financial decisions to lead a good life. But then some stranger pretends to misdial your number and reads a script about how they feel like they really connected with you. You get 'activated' and enter an irrational universe where you can be convinced to send your money away and keep the relationship a secret from everyone you know and lie to your bank about why you are withdrawing anything and who knows what else.
I like to think I am immune to this but who knows what I will be in 30 years. I make a living by being distrusting (security) and got activated as a good boglehead at a really young age. Or maybe the stupid-juice will suffuse my brain at age 70 and I'll give it all away to a cute AI voice that robodials me after decades of not answering any call that isn't already in my contacts, and everybody who knows me will be mystified as to why, including myself.
I didn't send money to the mexx.com site but I did send some to a site called ftx.com which pulled a more subtle scam. Got that refunded eventually.
Sure, we can explain how this works, you just need to subscribe to our educational series on the topic...
It's all about framing the con in a way that gets past the defense mechanisms the OP assumes. Whether this is done with synthetic intimacy, urgency, exclusivity, high-mindedness, etc. depends on the target victim profile.
But, it's always social engineering. The only 100% defense is to assume a deeply untrusting posture that makes social living nearly impossible.
While I've been an Econ subscriber in the past when magazines were a thing, the podcast didn't con me into subscribing. _this time_ But I enjoyed their free eps all the same.
"All the lonely people, where do they all come from? All the lonely people, where do they all belong?"
There are a lot of sad people out there. And some of them are at the nunchucks, bongs, and throwing stars store.
Of those you have met, who would be at risk of falling for such scams? I know about maybe two.
And the combination of being both susceptible and not chronic broke is quite rare. Both those I know about who I guess fall for this stuff are broke.
Young folks on the other hand get hit with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextortion
which often ends by suicide in 15-20 minutes.
I would e.g. instantly enter my username and password at work into any prompt that requests and looks as usual since Microsoft request my system password randomly all the time theough webpages. It is not my fault...
The thought of telling somebody your real name to somebody online used to be considered a poor decision.
The bar has really moved for what people need for trust.
Desperation and loneliness are often a part of it, and these scams happen over a period of months, so at the critical moment it doesn't feel (emphasis on "feel") like you're talking to a stranger at all. These criminal organizations have done this thousands and thousands of times, they know how to emotionally manipulate someone away from thinking objectively about the situation. They just have to catch someone at a vulnerable moment and get them talking for a day or two, and already they aren't a stranger anymore, they're "a guy I've been talking to", and they just build up the relationship for weeks or months before they even bring up money or investing.
This Economist podcast is pretty good if you want to understand more, even if you don't have a subscription the three free episodes are great: https://www.economist.com/audio/podcasts/scam-inc.
This is also a good blog post about how even someone extremely knowledgeable about technology and fraud can be easily scammed if you just catch them at the right time: https://pluralistic.net/2024/02/05/cyber-dunning-kruger/. It can happen to you too, you are not immune just because these victims seem like morons to you. They seem like morons to themselves too, but it still happened.
What does work is an absolute, ironclad rule that I do not trust and am not friends with anyone I meet online until we've met multiple times in person. But there's a lot of lonely people out there who don't find that rule so easy.
The more sophisticated attempts seemingly do not straight up ask for cash. They offer an investment opportunity on a scam website which will report the investment doing well, so the victim will independently invest more money.
That's a good rule and should be common sense for all internet users.
I found both situations unbelievable but I can see how. Two situations which turned out legitimate were:
* I was in a bad accident and there was a settlement which was intended to go to the insurer but went to me instead. The subrogation claim eventually made it to me and I was informed via phone. I told them to send the docs etc. and contacted the insurer to ensure this was their guys. It was and I paid (perhaps more than I should have but not all that I received)
* About half the time I send a big wire on Chase, they call me to confirm details and this and that. I always say "I shouldn't really be doing this, right? Can you tell me how I can call you?" and they tell me to go on the site and find the number etc. etc.
So it seems there are many cases where the fake seeming is legit. These two were drowned in a large number of other scam phone calls, admittedly, and I must confess that hearing an Indian accent with a Western name now sets off my alarm bells.
> I've been arrested/kidnapped/lost my wallet
the scammers create a flase sense of urgency and exploit the victim's concern for their loved one's well-being.
To me, pig butchering is a long term process where the victim is convinced that a new contact is a trusted friend, and then the trusted friend needs money for (transportation, investment, living arrangements, etc). The symbolism being that the victim is a pig that is fattened up via building up a relationship, and then butchered via the demand for money.
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Analogies are by definition imperfect but:
1. why not point the finger at ATT and Verizon for allowing phone calls and IP packets that facilitated crime?
2. toll road owners, car/truck manufacturers, UPS, USPS, should they be tasked with "knowing" more about their customers?
All this just ends up blaming the victim and doesn't really fix the problem while having massive collateral damage like folks having their bank accounts closed for no good reason and causing real losses to actual businesses.
What's the solution? I'm not sure. Perhaps it begins with holding countries more to account for the actions of their resident criminals.
Even one as big as NFCU. I've never looked back since switching.
The US alone loses 158 billion $ each year [1] to scams, the global toll is allegedly around 1 trillion $ [2]. That's fucking insane, this has to stop.
[1] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ftc-states-scams-cost-us-cons...
[2] https://www.gasa.org/post/global-state-of-scams-report-2024-...
I suspect the reason they don't is many of them know that following the money will lead right to their own front doors.
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According to the article, this is originating in China - we're sanctioning them pretty hard as it is, and they don't seem to care that much.
As in past, the future US dispensation would be far more more decent to disturb peacock like dancing Modi.
> DO NOT REDEEM
Imagine Americans living in small towns with few to no Indians, and their only association with Indian accents is someone trying to steal their (or their parents' or granparents') money.
EDIT: seatac76, your reply got shadowed; perhaps your entire account. Not sure why.
How much control does an average citizen have over these criminal enterprises? Does an average US citizen know/care/take-action when mercenaries from their country topple governments of other countries? As long as the crime is not visible, they just enjoy fruits of their crimes.
My point was about the government. This phenomenon is large enough that I'm shocked it hasn't openly caused a diplomatic rift between the US and India, and New Delhi should have a vested interested in combating it.
> when mercenaries from their country topple governments of other countries
What "mercenaries" are you referring to?
Mercenaries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
It is only large enough to you probably. India has been sanctioned by US in the 90s for doing reciprocal nuclear tests (after China detonated its bomb) and suffered billions of dollars in trade. US gained nothing from the sanctions except to push India into more poverty. It ended up being counter-productive. Even now Trump is threatening India with billions of dollars in trade sanctions that far outweighs anything caused by scams (if you take absolute numbers).
> What "mercenaries" are you referring to?
The CIA is currently fuelling and instigating Manipur riots in India by supplying arms and ammunitions to Kuki narco-terrorists. Prior to this we had USAID that was influencing electoral politics within India. Apart from that, we just witnessed regime change operations in Bangladesh where Pro-India Shiekh Hasina was toppled for a Pro-US Jihadi Muhammad Yunus. All of these run the US taxpayers in hundreds of billions of dollars. Far more than any scam conducted by Indian call centers.
For an average US citizen, sure it feels like a lot, since you guys are at the receiving end. But since you mentioned why US Government is not bringing this up, it is because it pales in comparison to what US Government has done to India over the past 7 decades. India can bring up a lot of counterpoints that will only cause US diplomats to shut up. We haven't even touched on killing of our nuclear scientists. Too many skeletons in their closet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homi_J._Bhabha
> Gregory Douglas, a journalist, conspiracy theorist,[128] forger,[129] and holocaust denier[130] who claimed to have conducted telephone conversations with former CIA operative Robert Crowley in 1993, published a book titled Conversations with the Crow in 2013. According to Douglas, Crowley claimed that the CIA was responsible for assassinating Homi Bhabha and Prime Minister Shastri in 1966, thirteen days apart, to thwart India's nuclear programme.[131]
Clearly, the GP is completely rational and quite well-informed.
For one year. 14 other countries sanctioned India too.
> The CIA is currently fuelling and instigating Manipur riots
I couldn't find anything on this besides articles on Indian/Bangladeshi InfoWars-tier websites.
> to what US Government has done to India over the past 7 decades
Like what?
Umm you are targeting the wrong person here. Majority of the scam call centers come from West Bengal, particularly Kolkata. Which is headed by Chief Minister Mamta Banerjee.
India has a federal structure, with cooperation between Center and States. Similar to USA. Modi just can't invade Kolkata using Indian Armed Forces and dismantle the operations without facing significant legal challenges in the Supreme Court of India.
West Bengal is a islamo-commie state. Nearly impossible to flip the state electorally for BJP to win (Narendra Modi heads BJP). The state is a stronghold of Mamta Banerjee who heads the TMC party. She came to power after nearly 4 decades of Communist rule.
> India has a federal structure, with cooperation between Center and States. Similar to USA. Modi just can't invade Kolkata using Indian Armed Forces and dismantle the operations without facing significant legal challenges in the Supreme Court of India.
There are ways in any federal system to force the cooperation of unwilling states. The US, infamously, threatened to withhold federal highway funding unless states raised the minimum drinking age to 21.
The federal government could also be transparent about hints of scammers they get and explain why the scammers are not being targeted. Particularly when the state in question is run by the opposition, I would expect the federal government party to use this as political ammunition.
The fact that there is zero such efforts visible leads me to the conclusion that Modi just doesn't give a fuck.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_...
The US GDP is more than 27 trillion. If 158 billion is being lost. That's about .6% of the GDP. So, my question is, why does this have to stop? If it is stopped the benefits to the global population seems trivial. I'm sure at the individual level it is devastating. Good luck getting the national government to care about such a small percent.
Yet another reason to avoid cryptocurrency, until that is 100% fully regulated, I will always avoid it.
One of the biggest reason is every tom, dick or harry is creating their own cryptocurrency these days. Including the dummy in charge of the US :)
People are asked to buy and send crypto, they're not the same people who know what crypto is.