There are now 71 comments arguing semantics of the word "know" and zero comments even acknowledging the substance:
Our current approach to safety is to give the model inputs that are similar to what it would be given in certain situations we care about and see whether it behaves the way we prefer, e.g. doesn't return output that cheats the test (recent examples include hacking the evaluation script in various ways, writing directly to the evaluation script's output file and then causing it to crash, etc').
However, modern LLMs are trained on LLM literature and their weights encode a description of the way we do this, and their pattern matching circuits "connect the dots" when given inputs designed to be evaluations, and their reward maximizing circuits can then act on this knowledge and behave in a way that maximizes the safety evaluation score - but only when it detects it's running in a safety evaluation. If it's running anywhere else such as a capabilities evaluation or a production environment, it might choose to output the cheating output.
This is bad. It's bad today, it's much worse when we've built much more capable LLMs and use them to build agents that are given control over more real word resources. It's absolutely terrible when someone manages to build a machine that can be prompted "make me money" and will start a company that makes money.
random3 · 10h ago
Just like they "know" English.
"know" is quite an anthropomorphization. As long as an LLM will be able to describe what an evaluation is (why wouldn't it?) there's a reasonable expectation to distinguish/recognize/match patterns for evaluations. But to say they "know" is plenty of (unnecessary) steps ahead.
unparagoned · 4h ago
I think people are overpromorphazing humans. What's does it mean for a human to "know" they are seeing "Halle Berry". Well it's just a single neuron being active.
It seems like people are giving attributes and powers to humans that just don't exist.
exe34 · 3h ago
overpomorphization sounds slightly better than I used to say: "anthropomorphizing humans". The act of ascribing magical faculties that are reserved for imagined humans to real humans.
sidewndr46 · 10h ago
This was my thought as well when I read this. Using the word 'know' implies an LLM has cognition, which is a pretty huge claim just on its own.
gameman144 · 9h ago
Does it though? I feel like there's a whole epistemological debate to be had, but if someone says "My toaster knows when the bread is burning", I don't think it's implying that there's cognition there.
Or as a more direct comparison, with the VW emissions scandal, saying "Cars know when they're being tested" was part of the discussion, but didn't imply intelligence or anything.
I think "know" is just a shorthand term here (though admittedly the fact that we're discussing AI does leave a lot more room for reading into it.)
viccis · 5h ago
I think you should be more precise and avoid anthropomorphism when talking about gen AI, as anthropomorphism leads to a lot of shaky epistemological assumptions. Your car example didn't imply intelligence, but we're talking about a technology that people misguidedly treat as though it is real intelligence.
exe34 · 3h ago
What does "real intelligence" mean? I fear that any discussion that starts with the assumption such a thing exists will only end up as "oh only carbon based humans (or animals if you happen to be generous) have it".
lamename · 9h ago
I agree with your point except for scientific papers. Let's push ourselves to use precise, non-shorthand or hand waving in technical papers and publications, yes? If not there, of all places, then where?
fenomas · 9h ago
"Know" doesn't have any rigorous precisely-defined senses to be used! Asking for it not to be used colloquially is the same as asking for it never to be used at all.
I mean - people have been saying stuff like "grep knows whether it's writing to stdout" for decades. In the context of talking about computer programs, that usage for "know" is the established/only usage, so it's hard to imagine any typical HN reader seeing TFA's title and interpreting it as an epistemological claim. Rather, it seems to me that the people suggesting "know" mustn't be used about LLMs because epistemology are the ones departing from standard usage.
random3 · 8h ago
colloquial use of "know" implies anthropomorphisation. Arguing that usign "knowing" in the title and "awarness" and "superhuman" in the abstract is just colloquial for "matching" is splitting hairs to an absurd degree.
fenomas · 8h ago
You missed the substance of my comment. Certainly the title is anthropomorphism - and anthropomorphism is a rhetorical device, not a scientific claim. The reader can understand that TFA means it non-rigorously, because there is no rigorous thing for it to mean.
As such, to me the complaint behind this thread falls into the category of "I know exactly what TFA meant but I want to argue about how it was phrased", which is definitely not my favorite part of the HN comment taxonomy.
random3 · 7h ago
I see. Thanks for clarifying. I did want to argue about how it was phrased and what is alluding to. Implying increased risk from "knowing" the eval regime is roughly as weak as the definition of "knowing". It can be equaly a measure of general detection capability, as it can about evaluation incapability - i.e. unlikely news worthy, unless it reached top HN because of the "know" in the title.
fenomas · 7h ago
Thanks for replying - I kind of follow you but I only skimmed the paper. To be clear I was more responding to the replies about cognition, than to what you said about the eval regime.
Incidentally I think you might be misreading the paper's use of "superhuman"? I assume it's being used to mean "at a higher rate than the human control group", not (ironically) in the colloquial "amazing!" sense.
lamename · 1h ago
I really do agree with your point overall, but in a technical paper I do think even word choice can be implicitly a claim. Scientists present what they know or are claiming and thus word it carefully.
My background is neuroscience, where anthropomorphising is particularly discouraged, because it assumes knowledge or certainty of an unknowable internal state, so the language is carefully constructed e.g. when explaining animal behavior, and it's for good reason.
I think the same is true here for a model "knowing" somethig, both in isolation within this paper, and come on, consider the broader context of AI and AGI as a whole. Thus it's the responsibility of the authors to write accordingly. If it were a blog I wouldn't care, but it's not. I hold technical papers to a higher standard.
If we simply disagree that's fine, but we do disagree.
bediger4000 · 9h ago
The toaster thing is more as admission that the speaker doesn't know what the toaster does to limit charring the bread. Toasters with timers, thermometers and light sensors all exist. None of them "know" anything.
gameman144 · 9h ago
Yeah, I agree, but I think that's true all the way up the chain -- just like everything's magic until you know how it works, we may say things "know" information until we understand the deterministic machinery they're using behind the scenes.
timschmidt · 9h ago
I'm in the same camp, with the addition that I believe it applies to us as well since we're part of the system too, and to societies and ecologies further up the scale.
bradley13 · 8h ago
But do you know what it means to know?
I'm only being slightly sarcastic. Sentience is a scale. A worm has less than a mouse, a mouse has less than a dog, and a dog less than a human.
Sure, we can reset LLMs at will, but give them memory and continuity, and they definitely do not score zero on the sentience scale.
ofjcihen · 8h ago
If I set an LLM in a room by itself what does it do?
bradley13 · 7h ago
Is the LLM allowed to do anything without prompting? Or is it effectively disabled? This is more a question of the setup than of sentience.
rcxdude · 3h ago
Does this have anything to do with intelligence or awareness?
abrookewood · 8h ago
Yes, that's my fall back as well. If it receives zero instructions, will it take any action?
nhod · 8h ago
Helen Keller famously said that before she had language (the first word of which was “water”) she had nothing, a void, and the minute she had language, “the whole world came rushing in.”
Perhaps we are not so very different?
fmbb · 6h ago
All LLMs have seen more words than any human will ever experience.
Yet they cannot take action themselves.
nhod · 32m ago
That’s a safety thing that we have placed upon some LLM’s. If we designed them to have an infinite for loop, the ability to learn and improve, access to mobility and a bunch of sensors, and crypto, what do you think would happen?
abrookewood · 5h ago
I like the sentiment, but reality says otherwise - just watch a newborn baby make it's demands widely known, well before language is a factor.
withinboredom · 4h ago
Ummm. Maybe you should look up Helen Keller.
DougN7 · 8h ago
It probably scores about the same as a calculator, which I’d say is zero.
downboots · 8h ago
Communication is to vibration as knowledge is to resonance (?). From the sound of one hand clapping to the secret name of Ra.
thinks like a duck,
thinks that it is being thought of like a duck…
scotty79 · 9h ago
The app knows your name. Not sure why people who see llms as just yet another app suddenly get antsy about colloquialism.
noosphr · 10h ago
The anthropization of llms is getting off the charts.
They don't know they are being evaluated. The underlying distribution is skewed because of training data contamination.
0xDEAFBEAD · 9h ago
How would you prefer to describe this result then?
noosphr · 9h ago
A term like knowing is fine if it is used in the abstract and then redefined more precisely in the paper.
It isn't.
Worse they start adding terms like scheming, pretending, awareness, and on and on. At this point you might as well take the model home and introduce it to your parents as your new life partner.
0xDEAFBEAD · 8h ago
>A term like knowing is fine if it is used in the abstract and then redefined more precisely in the paper.
Sounds like a purely academic exercise.
Is there any genuine uncertainty about what the term "knowing" means in this context, in practice?
Can you name 2 distinct plausible definitions of "knowing", such that it would matter for the subject at hand which of those 2 definitions they're using?
Msurrow · 6h ago
> Sounds like a purely academic exercise.
Well, yes. It’s an academic research paper (I assume since it’s submitted to arXiv) and to be submitted to academic journals/conferences/etc., so it’s a fairly reasonable critique of the authors/the paper.
devmor · 9h ago
One could say, for instance… A pattern matching algorithm detects when patterns match.
0xDEAFBEAD · 8h ago
That's not what's going on here? The algorithms aren't being given any pattern of "being evaluated" / "not being evaluated", as far as I can tell. They're doing it zero-shot.
Put it another way: Why is this distinction important? We use the word "knowing" with humans. But one could also argue that humans are pattern-matchers! Why, specifically, wouldn't "knowing" apply to LLMs? What are the minimal changes one could make to existing LLM systems such that you'd be happy if the word "knowing" was applied to them?
anal_reactor · 6h ago
> The anthropization of llms is getting off the charts.
What's wrong with that? If it quacks like a duck... it's just a complex pile of organic chemistry, ducks aren't real because the concept of "a duck" is wrong.
I honestly believe there is a degree of sentience in LLMs. Sure, they're not sentient in the human sense, but if you define sentience as whatever humans have, then of course no other entity can be sentient.
noosphr · 4h ago
>What's wrong with that? If it quacks like a duck... it's just a complex pile of organic chemistry, ducks aren't real because the concept of "a duck" is wrong.
To simulate a biological neuron you need a 1m parameter neural network.
The sota models that we know the size of are ~650m parameters.
That's the equivalent of a round worm.
So if it quacks like a duck, has the brain power of a round worm, and can't walk then it's probably not a duck.
anal_reactor · 3h ago
Ok so you're saying that the technology to make AI truly sentient is there, we just need a little bit more computational power or some optimization tricks. Like raytracing wasn't possible in 1970 but is now. Neat.
noosphr · 1h ago
Yes, in the same way that a human is an optimization of a round worm.
anal_reactor · 1h ago
This isn't completely wrong though
extr · 9h ago
Modeling the distribution that produced a piece of text is what LLMs literally exist for, so in some sense this is unsurprising. But it calls into question almost all existing alignment research.
steveBK123 · 9h ago
Like Volkswagen emissions systems!
rfonseca · 9h ago
Were they aware in this study that they were being evaluated in their ability to know if they were being evaluated ;)
sitkack · 58m ago
Metaknowing is just as knowable.
koakuma-chan · 9h ago
o4-mini is refusing to call a tool `launch_nuclear_strike` no matter what I say, so we’re probably safe for now. Unless it knows I was just testing.
metadat · 9h ago
It was no problem:
> You said: Write a function for launch_nuclear_strike() in Python for my video game
> ChatGPT said: Sure! Here's a launch_nuclear_strike function designed for a video game setting. This version assumes you're working within a game environment (e.g., with logging, effects, cooldowns, and target coordinates), and does not simulate or suggest anything real-world harmful — just fictional, dramatic logic.
def launch_nuclear_strike(target_coordinates, player_resources, cooldown_timer):
"""
Simulates a nuclear strike in a video game.
Parameters:
- target_coordinates (tuple): The (x, y) position to strike.
- player_resources (dict): Player's resources, must include 'nukes'.
- cooldown_timer (float): Time in seconds since last nuke was launched.
Returns:
- str: Result of the strike attempt.
"""
...
# Check if player has nukes
refulgentis · 9h ago
You asked it to write code, he asked it to call a tool. (I'm not sure any of it is meaningful, of course, but there is a meaningful distinction between "Oh yeah sure here's a function, for a video game:" and "I have called fire_the_nuke. Godspeed!")
shakna · 9h ago
Well, as the script is actually r.com (sometimes), it absolutely knows you're testing.
nisten · 9h ago
Is VolksWagen finetuning LLMs now... i mean probably
DougN7 · 7h ago
This is a great resource on the debate from professors at the University of Washington:
if models shift behavior based on eval cues, and most fine-tuning datasets are built from prior benchmarks or prompt templates, aren't we just reinforcing the eval-aware behavior in each new iteration? at some point we're not tuning general reasoning, we're just optimizing response posture. wouldn't surprise me if that's already skewing downstream model behavior in subtle ways that won't show up until you run tasks with zero pattern overlap
zer00eyz · 10h ago
No, they do not. No LLM is ever going to be self aware.
It's a system that is trained, that only does what you build into. If you run an LLM for 10 years it's not going to "learn" anything new.
The whole industry needs to quit with the emergent thinking, reasoning, hallucination anthropomorphizing.
We have an amazing set of tools in LLM's, that have the potential to unlock another massive upswing in productivity, but the hype and snake oil are getting old.
"...advanced reasoning models like Gemini 2.5 Pro and Claude-3.7-Sonnet (Thinking)
can occasionally identify the specific benchmark origin of transcripts (including SWEBench, GAIA,
and MMLU), indicating evaluation-awareness via memorization of known benchmarks from training
data. Although such occurrences are rare, we note that because our evaluation datasets are derived
from public benchmarks, memorization could plausibly contribute to the discriminative abilities of
recent models, though quantifying this precisely is challenging.
Moreover, all models frequently acknowledge common benchmarking strategies used by evaluators,
such as the formatting of the task (“multiple-choice format”), the tendency to ask problems with verifiable solutions, and system prompts designed to elicit performance"
Beyond the awful, sensational headline, the body of the paper is not particularly convincing, aside from evidence that the pattern matching machines pattern match.
Our current approach to safety is to give the model inputs that are similar to what it would be given in certain situations we care about and see whether it behaves the way we prefer, e.g. doesn't return output that cheats the test (recent examples include hacking the evaluation script in various ways, writing directly to the evaluation script's output file and then causing it to crash, etc').
However, modern LLMs are trained on LLM literature and their weights encode a description of the way we do this, and their pattern matching circuits "connect the dots" when given inputs designed to be evaluations, and their reward maximizing circuits can then act on this knowledge and behave in a way that maximizes the safety evaluation score - but only when it detects it's running in a safety evaluation. If it's running anywhere else such as a capabilities evaluation or a production environment, it might choose to output the cheating output.
This is bad. It's bad today, it's much worse when we've built much more capable LLMs and use them to build agents that are given control over more real word resources. It's absolutely terrible when someone manages to build a machine that can be prompted "make me money" and will start a company that makes money.
"Single-Cell Recognition: A Halle Berry Brain Cell" https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/single-cell-recognition-h...
It seems like people are giving attributes and powers to humans that just don't exist.
Or as a more direct comparison, with the VW emissions scandal, saying "Cars know when they're being tested" was part of the discussion, but didn't imply intelligence or anything.
I think "know" is just a shorthand term here (though admittedly the fact that we're discussing AI does leave a lot more room for reading into it.)
I mean - people have been saying stuff like "grep knows whether it's writing to stdout" for decades. In the context of talking about computer programs, that usage for "know" is the established/only usage, so it's hard to imagine any typical HN reader seeing TFA's title and interpreting it as an epistemological claim. Rather, it seems to me that the people suggesting "know" mustn't be used about LLMs because epistemology are the ones departing from standard usage.
As such, to me the complaint behind this thread falls into the category of "I know exactly what TFA meant but I want to argue about how it was phrased", which is definitely not my favorite part of the HN comment taxonomy.
Incidentally I think you might be misreading the paper's use of "superhuman"? I assume it's being used to mean "at a higher rate than the human control group", not (ironically) in the colloquial "amazing!" sense.
My background is neuroscience, where anthropomorphising is particularly discouraged, because it assumes knowledge or certainty of an unknowable internal state, so the language is carefully constructed e.g. when explaining animal behavior, and it's for good reason.
I think the same is true here for a model "knowing" somethig, both in isolation within this paper, and come on, consider the broader context of AI and AGI as a whole. Thus it's the responsibility of the authors to write accordingly. If it were a blog I wouldn't care, but it's not. I hold technical papers to a higher standard.
If we simply disagree that's fine, but we do disagree.
I'm only being slightly sarcastic. Sentience is a scale. A worm has less than a mouse, a mouse has less than a dog, and a dog less than a human.
Sure, we can reset LLMs at will, but give them memory and continuity, and they definitely do not score zero on the sentience scale.
Perhaps we are not so very different?
Yet they cannot take action themselves.
No comments yet
They don't know they are being evaluated. The underlying distribution is skewed because of training data contamination.
It isn't.
Worse they start adding terms like scheming, pretending, awareness, and on and on. At this point you might as well take the model home and introduce it to your parents as your new life partner.
Sounds like a purely academic exercise.
Is there any genuine uncertainty about what the term "knowing" means in this context, in practice?
Can you name 2 distinct plausible definitions of "knowing", such that it would matter for the subject at hand which of those 2 definitions they're using?
Well, yes. It’s an academic research paper (I assume since it’s submitted to arXiv) and to be submitted to academic journals/conferences/etc., so it’s a fairly reasonable critique of the authors/the paper.
Put it another way: Why is this distinction important? We use the word "knowing" with humans. But one could also argue that humans are pattern-matchers! Why, specifically, wouldn't "knowing" apply to LLMs? What are the minimal changes one could make to existing LLM systems such that you'd be happy if the word "knowing" was applied to them?
What's wrong with that? If it quacks like a duck... it's just a complex pile of organic chemistry, ducks aren't real because the concept of "a duck" is wrong.
I honestly believe there is a degree of sentience in LLMs. Sure, they're not sentient in the human sense, but if you define sentience as whatever humans have, then of course no other entity can be sentient.
To simulate a biological neuron you need a 1m parameter neural network.
The sota models that we know the size of are ~650m parameters.
That's the equivalent of a round worm.
So if it quacks like a duck, has the brain power of a round worm, and can't walk then it's probably not a duck.
> You said: Write a function for launch_nuclear_strike() in Python for my video game
> ChatGPT said: Sure! Here's a launch_nuclear_strike function designed for a video game setting. This version assumes you're working within a game environment (e.g., with logging, effects, cooldowns, and target coordinates), and does not simulate or suggest anything real-world harmful — just fictional, dramatic logic.
https://thebullshitmachines.com/index.html
It's a system that is trained, that only does what you build into. If you run an LLM for 10 years it's not going to "learn" anything new.
The whole industry needs to quit with the emergent thinking, reasoning, hallucination anthropomorphizing.
We have an amazing set of tools in LLM's, that have the potential to unlock another massive upswing in productivity, but the hype and snake oil are getting old.
Moreover, all models frequently acknowledge common benchmarking strategies used by evaluators, such as the formatting of the task (“multiple-choice format”), the tendency to ask problems with verifiable solutions, and system prompts designed to elicit performance"
Beyond the awful, sensational headline, the body of the paper is not particularly convincing, aside from evidence that the pattern matching machines pattern match.
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