> Ukraine bombs the planes that bomb schools and hospitals."
demarq · 3h ago
I think we're past the point of one side is better than the other.
> Ukraine targeted a train carrying civilians by blowing up the bridge it was on.
Not only this but by now both sides of the conflict have accumulated enough war crimes that it would take an eternity to prosecute them all.
cocacola1 · 1h ago
> I think we're past the point of one side is better than the other.
This is just demonstrably untrue.
jamwil · 1h ago
Russia started the war, unprovoked, on foreign soil. So, no, that’s a false assessment. Every death in this war is Russia’s fault because it is, by definition, Russia’s war.
LorenPechtel · 3h ago
Whether or not they succeeded (and their claims generally do not prove to be exaggerated, so I suspect they did) they just shook up the world's militaries. I doubt there's a base in the world that's truly secure against this sort of attack.
And I don't see any reason to suggest AI being involved here. GPS to an initial point, follow a specified bearing and do image recognition. Note the angle at which you are seeing the image, if it doesn't change as you move you're looking at an image, ignore it. This would fall for any reasonably fancy decoy, but that's not going to be enough to protect the facility.
I've been saying this for years: with pretty much everything military a bunch of cheap units will give you far more bang for your buck than the same value of expensive units. It used to be that since units required operators you would have a big problem with personnel (although we did see the Kamikazes in Japan), but now that it's a microchip running it that's no longer a factor.
Nextgrid · 3h ago
> I don't see any reason to suggest AI being involved here. GPS to an initial point, follow a specified bearing and do image recognition
Is there a reason to suspect autonomous flying as opposed to remote control via the internet? Whatever deployed those drones can act as a bridge between the drone's radio link and cellular/public Wi-Fi/Starlink.
mrep · 2h ago
> they just shook up the world's militaries
For the good ones, I doubt it.
Israel today has trophy [0] which can detect if an rpg is going to hit its tank and shoot it out of the sky.
(from wiki): The system allegedly relies heavily on high-speed computational technologies. Upon detection of an incoming projectile, the system automatically computes various parameters, such as the approach vector, nature of the threat, time to impact, and angle of approach. The defensive projectiles are launched by two rotating projectile launchers positioned on the sides of the vehicle. These launchers deploy a number of small EFPs (Explosively Formed Penetrators), forming a precise and closely spaced matrix, targeting an area in front of the anti-tank projectile.
And that's one country with 10 million people and a mere $46.5 billion in military spending. And BTW allies generally share tech (we the US suck right now (sorry)) but Trophy is being integrated with multiple allies [1].
Developing automated drone shooting destroyers I think we can do.
EDIT: To add, I bet those drones can be shot down by 1 minigun or shotgun shell which aren't relatively expensive.
Edit 2, the dutch already have a badass automated minigun too [2, 3].
Edit 3: multiple countries have similar systems but they are all mainly for boats. I think we can adapt the to army bases [4].
There’s been plenty of anti missile systems deployed to Ukraine and the tank losses have still been absolutely insane.
Fundamentally it’s not about building anti-missile technology, it’s about doing it cheaply and at scale. That is a much, much tougher problem.
These drones cost less than a thousand bucks, and if each interception cost you 100k (the cost of a trophy shot) you’re going to lose a lot of equipment. It only takes one miss.
Now imagine scaling that system to protect an entire airfield. That seems next to impossible when these drones have a range of 10+ miles and are basically unjammable. You need China level surveillance across your entire county as a bare minimum.
mrep · 2h ago
Check out my edit 2. The Dutch already have an automated minigun. Bullets aren't that expensive relative to those shitty consumer drones which would get torn apart by them.
Also, ukraine doesn't have Trophy or any minigun/shotun defense system that I know of yet.
Having automated miniguns/shotguns near civilian areas definitely creates a challenge but I think our defense budget can handle that.
jiggawatts · 47m ago
The Goalkeeper CIWS costs something like $3000 per second that it is firing. It's not a cheap system!
It could be scaled down to the size of a normal minigun, but even that is about $50 per second.
Meanwhile drone costs keep falling, Ukraine is well below $500 per drone now.
linotype · 1h ago
The sheer waste and cost of this war is astonishing.
piker · 3h ago
Big couple of years for intel organizations. The beepers in Lebanon and now this.
sleepyguy · 4h ago
They wanted nothing to do with this war. Putin invaded a peaceful country that was defenseless. The West dragged its feet, and it took far too long to help with conventional weapons. It forced Ukraine to work without tanks, artillery, Fighter Jets, etc. They innovated and changed warfare forever.
What a favor they did for the USA and the West in general. We owe them eternal gratitude.
Glory to Ukraine
forinti · 2h ago
They obviously weren't defenseless, or they wouldn't have driven the Russians back.
Plus, I don't think the US or Europe was a positive influence on Ukraine, which should have taken the economic proposition made by Russia. Instead, the US and Europe proped up the nastier parts of Ukrainian nationalism and now keep it fighting with just enough force to be slowly ground down by Russia.
(35 points, 6 hours ago, 27 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44151327
> Ukraine bombs the planes that bomb schools and hospitals."
> Ukraine targeted a train carrying civilians by blowing up the bridge it was on.
Not only this but by now both sides of the conflict have accumulated enough war crimes that it would take an eternity to prosecute them all.
This is just demonstrably untrue.
And I don't see any reason to suggest AI being involved here. GPS to an initial point, follow a specified bearing and do image recognition. Note the angle at which you are seeing the image, if it doesn't change as you move you're looking at an image, ignore it. This would fall for any reasonably fancy decoy, but that's not going to be enough to protect the facility.
I've been saying this for years: with pretty much everything military a bunch of cheap units will give you far more bang for your buck than the same value of expensive units. It used to be that since units required operators you would have a big problem with personnel (although we did see the Kamikazes in Japan), but now that it's a microchip running it that's no longer a factor.
Is there a reason to suspect autonomous flying as opposed to remote control via the internet? Whatever deployed those drones can act as a bridge between the drone's radio link and cellular/public Wi-Fi/Starlink.
For the good ones, I doubt it.
Israel today has trophy [0] which can detect if an rpg is going to hit its tank and shoot it out of the sky.
(from wiki): The system allegedly relies heavily on high-speed computational technologies. Upon detection of an incoming projectile, the system automatically computes various parameters, such as the approach vector, nature of the threat, time to impact, and angle of approach. The defensive projectiles are launched by two rotating projectile launchers positioned on the sides of the vehicle. These launchers deploy a number of small EFPs (Explosively Formed Penetrators), forming a precise and closely spaced matrix, targeting an area in front of the anti-tank projectile.
And that's one country with 10 million people and a mere $46.5 billion in military spending. And BTW allies generally share tech (we the US suck right now (sorry)) but Trophy is being integrated with multiple allies [1].
Developing automated drone shooting destroyers I think we can do.
EDIT: To add, I bet those drones can be shot down by 1 minigun or shotgun shell which aren't relatively expensive.
Edit 2, the dutch already have a badass automated minigun too [2, 3].
Edit 3: multiple countries have similar systems but they are all mainly for boats. I think we can adapt the to army bases [4].
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure)
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure)#Intern...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper_CIWS
[3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AaUNipuygE
[4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-in_weapon_system
Fundamentally it’s not about building anti-missile technology, it’s about doing it cheaply and at scale. That is a much, much tougher problem.
These drones cost less than a thousand bucks, and if each interception cost you 100k (the cost of a trophy shot) you’re going to lose a lot of equipment. It only takes one miss.
Now imagine scaling that system to protect an entire airfield. That seems next to impossible when these drones have a range of 10+ miles and are basically unjammable. You need China level surveillance across your entire county as a bare minimum.
Also, ukraine doesn't have Trophy or any minigun/shotun defense system that I know of yet.
Having automated miniguns/shotguns near civilian areas definitely creates a challenge but I think our defense budget can handle that.
It could be scaled down to the size of a normal minigun, but even that is about $50 per second.
Meanwhile drone costs keep falling, Ukraine is well below $500 per drone now.
What a favor they did for the USA and the West in general. We owe them eternal gratitude.
Glory to Ukraine
Plus, I don't think the US or Europe was a positive influence on Ukraine, which should have taken the economic proposition made by Russia. Instead, the US and Europe proped up the nastier parts of Ukrainian nationalism and now keep it fighting with just enough force to be slowly ground down by Russia.