I'm not sure how this affects the premise of the article, but the "jaw dropping quote created by an LLM about NYC" reads like so much pretentious claptrap:
Because New York City is the only place where the myth of greatness still
feels within reach—where the chaos sharpens your ambition, and every street
corner confronts you with a mirror: who are you becoming?
You love NYC because it gives shape to your hunger. It’s a place where
anonymity and intimacy coexist; where you can be completely alone and still
feel tethered to the pulse of a billion dreams.
If I read this even before ChatGPT was a mote in the eye of Karpathy, my eyes would have rolled so far back that metacognitive mindfulness would have become a permanent passive ability stat.
The author of Berserk said it so much better: "Looking from up here, it's as if each flame were a small dream, for each person. They look like a bonfire of dreams, don't they? But, there's not flame for me here. I'm just a temporary visitor, taking comfort from the flame."
antithesizer · 47m ago
>reads like so much pretentious claptrap
>my eyes would have rolled so far back that metacognitive mindfulness would have become a permanent passive ability stat
Yes, I agree it is impressively lifelike, just like it was written by a real flesh-and-blood New Yorker.
13years · 3h ago
> AI is not inevitable fate. It is an invitation to wake up. The work is to keep dragging what is singular, poetic, and profoundly alive back into focus, despite all pressures to automate it away.
This is the struggle. The race to automate everything. Turn all of our social interactions into algorithmic digital bits. However, I don't think people are just going to wake up from calls to wake up, unfortunately.
We typically only wake up to anything once it is broken. Society has to break from the over optimization of attention and engagement. Not sure how that is going to play out, but we certainly aren't slowing down yet.
For example, take a look at the short clip I have posted here. It is an example of just how far everyone is scaling bot and content farms. It is an absolute flood of noise into all of our knowledge repositories.
https://www.mindprison.cc/p/dead-internet-at-scale
jfarmer · 58m ago
John Dewey on a similar theme, about the desire to make everything frictionless and the role of friction. The fallacy that because "a thirsty man gets satisfaction in drinking water, bliss consists in being drowned."
> The fallacy in these versions of the same idea is perhaps the most pervasive of all fallacies in philosophy. So common is it that one questions whether it might not be called the philosophical fallacy. It consists in the supposition that whatever is found true under certain conditions may forthwith be asserted universally or without limits and conditions.
> Because a thirsty man gets satisfaction in drinking water, bliss consists in being drowned. Because the success of any particular struggle is measured by reaching a point of frictionless action, therefore there is such a thing as an all-inclusive end of effortless smooth activity endlessly maintained.
> It is forgotten that success is success of a specific effort, and satisfaction the fulfilment of a specific demand, so that success and satisfaction become meaningless when severed from the wants and struggles whose consummations they are, or when taken universally.
dwaltrip · 9m ago
Our societies and our people are overdosing on convenience and efficiency.
pixl97 · 1h ago
The Culture dives into this concept with the idea of hegemonizing swarms, and Bolstrom touches on this with optimizing singletons.
Humans are amazing min/maxers, we create vast, and at least temporarily productive mono cultures. At the same time a scarily large portion of humanity will burn and destroy something of beauty if it brings them one cent of profit.
Myself I believe technology and eventually AI were our fate once we became intelligence optimizers.
13years · 1h ago
> Myself I believe technology and eventually AI were our fate once we became intelligence optimizers.
Yes, everyone talks about the Singularity, but I see the instrumental point of concern to be something prior which I've called the Event Horizon. We are optimizing, but without any understanding any longer for the outcomes.
"The point where we are now blind as to where we are going. The outcomes become increasingly unpredictable, and it becomes less likely that we can find our way back as it becomes a technology trap. Our existence becomes dependent on the very technology that is broken, fragile, unpredictable, and no longer understandable. There is just as much uncertainty in attempting to retrace our steps as there is in going forward."
pixl97 · 53m ago
>but without any understanding any longer for the outcomes.
A concept in driving where your braking distance exceeds your view/headlight range at any given speed. We've stomped on the accelerator and the next corner is rather sharp.
Isaac Asimov did a fictional version of this in the Foundation trilogy.
13years · 45m ago
Yes, that's an excellent description.
verisimi · 2h ago
> However, I don't think people are just going to wake up from calls to wake up, unfortunately.
> We typically only wake up to anything once it is broken. Society has to break from the over optimization of attention and engagement.
I don't think anyone will be waking up as long as their pronouns are 'we' and 'us' (or 'people', 'society'). Waking up or individuation is a personal, singular endeavour - it isn't a collective activity. If one hasn't even grasped who one is, if one is making a category error and identifies as 'we' rather than 'I', all answers will fail.
keiferski · 1h ago
A bit of a rambling essay without much depth, but it did make me wonder: if AI tools weren’t wrapped in a chatbot pretending to be a person, would all of this hullabaloo about AI and human nature go away? That seems to be the root of the unease many people have with these tools: they have the veneer of a human chatting but obviously aren’t quite there.
I tend to treat Ai tools as basically just a toolset with an annoying chat interface layered on top, which in my experience leads me to not feel any of the feelings described in the essay and elsewhere. It’s just a tool that makes certain outputs easier to generate, an idea calculator, if you will.
As a result, I’m pretty excited about AI, purely because they are such powerful creative tools - and I’m not fooled into thinking this is some sort of human replacement.
Avicebron · 1h ago
I wonder if investors would have dumped the same amount of money in if it was pitched as something like "Semantic encoding and retrieval of data in latent space" vs "hey ex-machina though"
keiferski · 1h ago
Definitely, whether they intrinsically believe it or not, the hunt for AGI is driving a lot of funding rounds.
goatlover · 39m ago
They think it will eliminate most payroll costs while driving productivity way up, without destroying the economy or causing a revolution. They also don't take worries about misaligned AGI very seriously.
gavmor · 54m ago
Yes, it would—the dialogic interface is an anchor weighing us down!
Yes, yes, it's an accessible demonstration of the technology's mind-blowing flexibility, but all this "I, you, me, I'm" nonsense clutters the context window and warps the ontology in way that introduces a major epistomological "optical illusion" that exploits (inadvertently?) a pretty fundamental aspect of human cognition—namely our inestimably powerful faculty for "theory of mind."
Install the industrial wordsmithing assembly line behind a brutalist facade—any non-skeumorphic GUI from the past 20 years aughta do.
Check out eg https://n8n.io for a quick way to plug one-shot inference into an ad-hoc pipeline.
niemandhier · 38m ago
I fully agree, where do we get the training data to create a base model?
Where do we source the terabyte of coherent text that is devoid of ego?
ambicapter · 1h ago
> if AI tools weren’t wrapped in a chatbot pretending to be a person
I don't think this is the central issue, considering all the generative AI tools that generates art pieces, including various takes on the cherished styles of still-living artists.
keiferski · 28m ago
Right, but then the conversation would mostly be akin to photography replacing portraiture - a huge technological change, but not one that makes people question their humanity.
Garlef · 2h ago
This made me happy: It offers an interesting take on AI.
(After reflecting a bit on this I think this is for the following reason: Not only does this take a step back to offer a meta perspective. It also does so without falling into the trap of rooting this perspective in the hegemonic topos of our everyday discourse (economics).
Usually, takes on AI are very economic in nature: "Gen AI is theft", "We/our jobs/our creativity will all be replaced", "The training data is preduced by exploiting cheap labour".
In this sense this perspective avoids the expected in not only in one but two ways.)
myaccountonhn · 50m ago
There are quite a few practical problems that bother me with AI: centralization of power, enablement of fake news, AI porn of real women, exploitation of cheap labour to label data, invalid AI responses from tech support, worse quality software, lowered literacy rates, the growing environmental footprint.
The philosophical implications are maybe the least of my worries, and maybe a red herring? It seems like the only thing those in power are interested in discussing while there are very real damages being done.
13years · 35m ago
A philosophical lens can sometimes help us perceive the root drivers of a set of problems. I sometimes call AI humanity's great hubris experiment.
AI's disproportionate capability to influence and capture attention versus productive output is a significant part of so many negative outcomes.
throwawaymaths · 19m ago
"When an LLM “describes the rain” or tries to evoke loneliness at a traffic light, it produces language that looks like the real thing but does not originate in lived experience"
does it not originate in the collective experience ensouled in the corpus it is fed?
pglevy · 1h ago
Just happened to read Heidegger's Memorial Address this morning. Delivered to a general audience in 1955, it is shorter and more accessible. Certainly not as complex as his later works but related.
> Yet it is not that the world is becoming entirely technical which is really uncanny. Far more uncanny is our being unprepared for this transformation, our inability to confront meditatively what is really dawning in this age.
In Heideggers philosophy objects and people are defined by their relations to the real world, he calls it “ in der Welt sein”.
Llms pose an interesting challenge to this concept, since they cannot interact with the physical world, but they nevertheless can act.
roxolotl · 1h ago
This piece addresses the major thing that’s been frustrating to me about AI. There’s plenty else to dislike, the provenance, the hype, the potential impacts, but what throws me the most is how willing many people have been to surrender themselves and their work to generative AI.
HellDunkel · 5m ago
This is the most perplexing thing about AI. And it is not just their own work but also every product of culture they love, which they are ready to surrender for beeing „ahead of the curve“ in very shallow ways.
> Instead, Heidegger compels us to do something much harder: to see the world as it is being reframed by technology, and then to consciously reclaim or reweave the strands of meaning that risk being flattened.
As a call to action this is inadequate. I have no idea what this is persuading me to do.
If I dig into how Heidegger solved this problem in his own life, well, I don’t think that should be replicated.
gchamonlive · 2h ago
Leave passivity behind. You should put work into understanding what's required of you. This is why it's so easy to fall back to passivity, but there are things that must be done just because it's the right thing to do. Doing anything other than that is akin to committing philosophical suicide.
TimorousBestie · 2h ago
I don’t think I have an ethical duty to parse obscurantist nonsense.
viccis · 2h ago
There's nothing obscure about that. You might be out of the habit of consuming challenging material, but it's definitely not a good response to react reflexively with contempt for something that takes a moment of thought to understand. There's already enough vulgar anti-intellectualism in society right now without adding to it.
gchamonlive · 1h ago
If that's obscurantist nonsense you aren't going to get far with Heidegger.
daseiner1 · 2h ago
Contempt prior to investigation ought not be a point of pride, I think.
daseiner1 · 2h ago
"The Question Concerning Technology" [1] mentioned in this piece is dense but can be understood by the literate layman, I think, with patience and a bit of work.
Re: "call to action", part of Heidegger's project by my read is to interrogate such phrases. I think he would refute that "action" is what we need and that orienting ourselves towards the world in terms of "action" is obscuring the Question of Being. He himself offers no real way out. In his posthumously published Der Spiegel interview [2] he himself says "only a God can save us".
I assume you're making a snide reference to his involvement with Nazism, which I'm not going to attempt to downplay or respond to here. He himself in his later life, however, went and lived a humble life in the Black Forest. Can or should we all "return to the land"? No. But his writing certainly has expanded my view of the world and my "image of thought". He is a worthwhile study.
How to Read Heidegger [3] is a great primer for any who may be interested.
P.S. just noticed/remembered that my username is a Heidegger reference. heh.
djoldman · 1h ago
1. I suspect that the vast majority couldn't care less about the philosophical implications. They're just going to try to adapt as best they can and live their lives.
2. LLMs are challenging the assumption, often unvoiced, that humans are special, unique even. A good chunk of people out there are starting to feel uncomfortable because of this. That LLMs are essentially a distillation of human-generated text makes this next-level ironic: occasionally people will deride LLM output... In some ways this is just a criticism of human generated text.
Barrin92 · 1h ago
> LLMs are challenging the assumption, often unvoiced, that humans are special, unique even. A good chunk of people out there are starting to feel uncomfortable because of this.
I'm gonna be honest, after Copernicus, Newton and Darwin it's a bit hilarious to think that this one is finally going to do that worldview in. If you were already willing to ignore that we're upright apes, in fact not in the center of the universe and things just largely buzz around without a telos I'd think you might as well rationalize machine intelligence somehow as well or have given up like 200 years ago
dtagames · 3h ago
This is fantastic. Perhaps the best philosophical piece on AI that I've read.
DiscourseFan · 3h ago
I need to write something, then.
smokel · 2h ago
Please do. It is unfortunate that those who shout hardest are not necessarily the smartest. There is a lot of nonsense being put out there, and it would be refreshing to read alternative perspectives.
Edit: this was a generic comment, not judging the article. I still have trouble understanding what its premise is.
bowsamic · 1h ago
This is basically my experience. LLMs have made me deeply appreciative of real human output. The more technology degrades everything, the clearer it shows what matters
13years · 1h ago
I think it is creating a growing interest in authenticity among some. Although, it still feels like this is a minority opinion. Every content platform is being flooded with AI content. Social media floods it into all of my feeds.
I wish I could push a button and filter it all out. But that's the problem we have created. It is nearly impossible to do. If you want to consume truly human authentic content, it is nearly impossible to know. Everyone I interact with now might just be a bot.
akomtu · 1h ago
AI will be the great divider of humanity. It's one of those ideas that can't be ignored or waited out, and everyone will need to take a decisive stance on it. Human civilization and machine civilization won't coexist for long.
httbs · 3h ago
Great read
deadbabe · 1h ago
We never valued the human element in the work that surrounds us. Do you care that the software engineer who produced the CRUD app you use everyday had a “craftsman mentality” toward code? Do you care about the hours a digital artist spent to render some CGI just right in a commercial? Do you appreciate the time a human took to write some local news article?
Probably not, you probably didn’t even notice, and now it’s over. It’s too late to care. These things will soon be replaced with cheaper AI pipelines and much of what we consume or read digitally will be proudly AI generated or at best only merely suspected of being AI generated. Did you know that soon you’ll even be able to install browser plugins that will automatically pay you to have AI insert ads into comments you write on popular websites? It’s true, and people will do it, because it’s an easy way to make money.
Reversing this AI trend means everyone should just do things the hard way, and that’s just not going to happen. If no one cares about how you do your work (and they really don’t give a fuck) you might as well use AI to do it.
micromacrofoot · 1h ago
that's not the point at all, the question is that in the face of this inevitability of slop how do we create meaning for ourselves
deadbabe · 1h ago
By choosing to do things the hard way. There is no meaning without struggle. And keep in mind some of that struggle will mean accepting the fact that others using AI will surpass you, and even be praised.
neuroelectron · 3h ago
My chatgpt doesn't like nyc that much:
New York City, as a global symbol, exports the myth of America—its exceptionalism, hustle culture, capitalism-as-dream, fashion, Wall Street bravado, media dominance, cultural swagger. NYC has always been a billboard for "brand America," selling a narrative of limitless opportunity, grit-as-glory, and urban sophistication. Think Times Square's overstimulation, Broadway's fantasy, Wall Street's speculation, and how these are consumed worldwide as aspirational content.
But what's exported isn't necessarily real—it’s hype. The marketed dream, not the lived reality.
“...and its biggest import is grime and grief”
In contrast, what flows into NYC is the cost of that image: the labor of the marginalized, the psychological toll, the physical debris. “Grime” evokes literal pollution, overwork, and class stratification; “grief” brings in the emotional fallout—displacement, burnout, violence, economic precarity, and cycles of trauma.
NYC absorbs the despair of a world it pretends to uplift. Refugees, artists, outcasts, and exhausted believers in the American Dream all converge here, only to be consumed by the very machine that exports the myth of hope.
The author of Berserk said it so much better: "Looking from up here, it's as if each flame were a small dream, for each person. They look like a bonfire of dreams, don't they? But, there's not flame for me here. I'm just a temporary visitor, taking comfort from the flame."
>my eyes would have rolled so far back that metacognitive mindfulness would have become a permanent passive ability stat
Yes, I agree it is impressively lifelike, just like it was written by a real flesh-and-blood New Yorker.
This is the struggle. The race to automate everything. Turn all of our social interactions into algorithmic digital bits. However, I don't think people are just going to wake up from calls to wake up, unfortunately.
We typically only wake up to anything once it is broken. Society has to break from the over optimization of attention and engagement. Not sure how that is going to play out, but we certainly aren't slowing down yet.
For example, take a look at the short clip I have posted here. It is an example of just how far everyone is scaling bot and content farms. It is an absolute flood of noise into all of our knowledge repositories. https://www.mindprison.cc/p/dead-internet-at-scale
> The fallacy in these versions of the same idea is perhaps the most pervasive of all fallacies in philosophy. So common is it that one questions whether it might not be called the philosophical fallacy. It consists in the supposition that whatever is found true under certain conditions may forthwith be asserted universally or without limits and conditions.
> Because a thirsty man gets satisfaction in drinking water, bliss consists in being drowned. Because the success of any particular struggle is measured by reaching a point of frictionless action, therefore there is such a thing as an all-inclusive end of effortless smooth activity endlessly maintained.
> It is forgotten that success is success of a specific effort, and satisfaction the fulfilment of a specific demand, so that success and satisfaction become meaningless when severed from the wants and struggles whose consummations they are, or when taken universally.
Humans are amazing min/maxers, we create vast, and at least temporarily productive mono cultures. At the same time a scarily large portion of humanity will burn and destroy something of beauty if it brings them one cent of profit.
Myself I believe technology and eventually AI were our fate once we became intelligence optimizers.
Yes, everyone talks about the Singularity, but I see the instrumental point of concern to be something prior which I've called the Event Horizon. We are optimizing, but without any understanding any longer for the outcomes.
"The point where we are now blind as to where we are going. The outcomes become increasingly unpredictable, and it becomes less likely that we can find our way back as it becomes a technology trap. Our existence becomes dependent on the very technology that is broken, fragile, unpredictable, and no longer understandable. There is just as much uncertainty in attempting to retrace our steps as there is in going forward."
A concept in driving where your braking distance exceeds your view/headlight range at any given speed. We've stomped on the accelerator and the next corner is rather sharp.
Isaac Asimov did a fictional version of this in the Foundation trilogy.
> We typically only wake up to anything once it is broken. Society has to break from the over optimization of attention and engagement.
I don't think anyone will be waking up as long as their pronouns are 'we' and 'us' (or 'people', 'society'). Waking up or individuation is a personal, singular endeavour - it isn't a collective activity. If one hasn't even grasped who one is, if one is making a category error and identifies as 'we' rather than 'I', all answers will fail.
I tend to treat Ai tools as basically just a toolset with an annoying chat interface layered on top, which in my experience leads me to not feel any of the feelings described in the essay and elsewhere. It’s just a tool that makes certain outputs easier to generate, an idea calculator, if you will.
As a result, I’m pretty excited about AI, purely because they are such powerful creative tools - and I’m not fooled into thinking this is some sort of human replacement.
Yes, yes, it's an accessible demonstration of the technology's mind-blowing flexibility, but all this "I, you, me, I'm" nonsense clutters the context window and warps the ontology in way that introduces a major epistomological "optical illusion" that exploits (inadvertently?) a pretty fundamental aspect of human cognition—namely our inestimably powerful faculty for "theory of mind."
Install the industrial wordsmithing assembly line behind a brutalist facade—any non-skeumorphic GUI from the past 20 years aughta do.
Check out eg https://n8n.io for a quick way to plug one-shot inference into an ad-hoc pipeline.
I don't think this is the central issue, considering all the generative AI tools that generates art pieces, including various takes on the cherished styles of still-living artists.
(After reflecting a bit on this I think this is for the following reason: Not only does this take a step back to offer a meta perspective. It also does so without falling into the trap of rooting this perspective in the hegemonic topos of our everyday discourse (economics).
Usually, takes on AI are very economic in nature: "Gen AI is theft", "We/our jobs/our creativity will all be replaced", "The training data is preduced by exploiting cheap labour".
In this sense this perspective avoids the expected in not only in one but two ways.)
The philosophical implications are maybe the least of my worries, and maybe a red herring? It seems like the only thing those in power are interested in discussing while there are very real damages being done.
AI's disproportionate capability to influence and capture attention versus productive output is a significant part of so many negative outcomes.
does it not originate in the collective experience ensouled in the corpus it is fed?
> Yet it is not that the world is becoming entirely technical which is really uncanny. Far more uncanny is our being unprepared for this transformation, our inability to confront meditatively what is really dawning in this age.
https://www.beyng.com/pages/en/DiscourseOnThinking/MemorialA... (p43)
Llms pose an interesting challenge to this concept, since they cannot interact with the physical world, but they nevertheless can act.
As a call to action this is inadequate. I have no idea what this is persuading me to do.
If I dig into how Heidegger solved this problem in his own life, well, I don’t think that should be replicated.
Re: "call to action", part of Heidegger's project by my read is to interrogate such phrases. I think he would refute that "action" is what we need and that orienting ourselves towards the world in terms of "action" is obscuring the Question of Being. He himself offers no real way out. In his posthumously published Der Spiegel interview [2] he himself says "only a God can save us".
I assume you're making a snide reference to his involvement with Nazism, which I'm not going to attempt to downplay or respond to here. He himself in his later life, however, went and lived a humble life in the Black Forest. Can or should we all "return to the land"? No. But his writing certainly has expanded my view of the world and my "image of thought". He is a worthwhile study.
How to Read Heidegger [3] is a great primer for any who may be interested.
[1] https://www2.hawaii.edu/~freeman/courses/phil394/The%20Quest...
[2] https://www.ditext.com/heidegger/interview.html
[3] https://a.co/d/dK5dp2t
P.S. just noticed/remembered that my username is a Heidegger reference. heh.
2. LLMs are challenging the assumption, often unvoiced, that humans are special, unique even. A good chunk of people out there are starting to feel uncomfortable because of this. That LLMs are essentially a distillation of human-generated text makes this next-level ironic: occasionally people will deride LLM output... In some ways this is just a criticism of human generated text.
I'm gonna be honest, after Copernicus, Newton and Darwin it's a bit hilarious to think that this one is finally going to do that worldview in. If you were already willing to ignore that we're upright apes, in fact not in the center of the universe and things just largely buzz around without a telos I'd think you might as well rationalize machine intelligence somehow as well or have given up like 200 years ago
Edit: this was a generic comment, not judging the article. I still have trouble understanding what its premise is.
I wish I could push a button and filter it all out. But that's the problem we have created. It is nearly impossible to do. If you want to consume truly human authentic content, it is nearly impossible to know. Everyone I interact with now might just be a bot.
Probably not, you probably didn’t even notice, and now it’s over. It’s too late to care. These things will soon be replaced with cheaper AI pipelines and much of what we consume or read digitally will be proudly AI generated or at best only merely suspected of being AI generated. Did you know that soon you’ll even be able to install browser plugins that will automatically pay you to have AI insert ads into comments you write on popular websites? It’s true, and people will do it, because it’s an easy way to make money.
Reversing this AI trend means everyone should just do things the hard way, and that’s just not going to happen. If no one cares about how you do your work (and they really don’t give a fuck) you might as well use AI to do it.
New York City, as a global symbol, exports the myth of America—its exceptionalism, hustle culture, capitalism-as-dream, fashion, Wall Street bravado, media dominance, cultural swagger. NYC has always been a billboard for "brand America," selling a narrative of limitless opportunity, grit-as-glory, and urban sophistication. Think Times Square's overstimulation, Broadway's fantasy, Wall Street's speculation, and how these are consumed worldwide as aspirational content.
But what's exported isn't necessarily real—it’s hype. The marketed dream, not the lived reality.
“...and its biggest import is grime and grief”
In contrast, what flows into NYC is the cost of that image: the labor of the marginalized, the psychological toll, the physical debris. “Grime” evokes literal pollution, overwork, and class stratification; “grief” brings in the emotional fallout—displacement, burnout, violence, economic precarity, and cycles of trauma.
NYC absorbs the despair of a world it pretends to uplift. Refugees, artists, outcasts, and exhausted believers in the American Dream all converge here, only to be consumed by the very machine that exports the myth of hope.