Considering making a move to software dev. I’ve heard a lot about ageism. Also that the market for jr devs is brutal. Am I wasting my time?
Comments (20)
fjfaase · 7h ago
At your age, I guess it is rather important what you have to offer besides your software development skills. Do you have experience working in teams, a track record with working with people, or extensive knowledge in an adjacent field, such as electronics, IT, or one of the other sciences? Or do you have extensive knowledge of certain safety/security/medical regulations?
Is there some specific area in software engineering that you are drawn to or some application are? There are many applications fields of software development and I think in some large fields it will not be worth trying to compete with junior developers.
fzwang · 6h ago
I second this. If you're trying to signal just on "I can code", then there will be fewer differentiating factors between you and younger people.
Typically, I don't think of software dev as an "industry" in itself, unless you're talking about dev tools etc, but that many industries depend on strong software. Your best bet is to target software problems related to your prior job. This way, your skillsets complement each other. You may not be the best at either side, but your ability to integrate the two could be a strong pt.
Nextgrid · 1h ago
Salaried software dev work is a waste of time. The juice ain't worth the squeeze and even FAANG-level comp and work conditions aren't what they used to be (and those were basically unique to the US - in Europe they were never particularly life-changing).
Software dev as a tool in your toolbox to fix business problems is a superpower and will actually earn you decent money.
(also, if you use software on your own then it doesn't matter how good you are or whether you conform to any given day's "best practices". Your client pays to get their problem solved, they don't care if it's solved by duct-tape and hot glue)
badpun · 1h ago
If salaried software dev work is not worth it, what other salaried career is?
Nextgrid · 1h ago
One when your comp and/or bonuses better capture the value you create.
Just an example: sales roles generally have commission-based compensation that scales with the amount of effort you put in and actually rewards high-performers.
In comparison, the "reward" for effort in a salaried SWE job is more work and to get your token 5% raise early if you're really lucky. And that's after you go through the insane recruitment & interviewing processes.
The SWE salary income might sound high at first glance when you're young and fresh but tops out quickly (and of course that top end has been significantly eroded by inflation), much lower than other roles.
comprev · 7m ago
Where I live tech is one of the few careers which puts [senior] salaried devs in the top 1% of earners when I look at my income bracket in the annual county stats published by the Government. At a regional level it puts me in top 5%.
This of course all relative geographically but we're certainly very well compensated compared to other industries.
codingdave · 6h ago
No, there are many of us with grey hair in the software industry.
42 is probably too old for the startup world, which is where the discussions on HN tend to focus, but that is really just one slice of the industry. There are a ton of jobs at larger non-tech companies, where ageism is not as much of a problem. It is slower-paced, lower-paid, more boring... and perfectly acceptable if all you are looking for is a solid stable job.
The bigger challenge is the "junior dev" problem. There is some harsh reality there. But you can probably fight through that if you look for software work in whatever industry you are coming from, so that your couple decades of prior experience is relevant to the work being done by any team you would join.
GoldenMonkey · 2h ago
It is absolutely a brutal job market for all software developers. Never seen anything like the current market. Seems like there is an oversupply of H1B's and recent graduates.
If Stanford Computer Science graduates aren't landing jobs.
And even 'AI Engineer' roles are hard to come by. I'd be wary.
JustExAWS · 1h ago
I’m always dumbfounded by the term “AI Engineer” unless you are actually working on the foundation models. Everything else is just knowing how to make AI calls, prompting and understanding RAG.
I’m not dismissing Gen AI at all, I’ve used it for three non chatbot projects so far and it’s made some really previous hard problems easy. But it was just a newer much easier tool in my tool belt that could have been done (probably better) with traditional ML techniques with much more development effort and maintenance overhead.
Nextgrid · 54m ago
It's the next evolution of people branding themselves as "senior" developers just because they followed a Next.js tutorial and managed to deploy it on some PaaS (and having worked with such, I'm impressed they actually even managed that).
Problem is: it works. Being against it just puts you at a disadvantage, so enjoy your new "AI Engineer" title. Call yourself Senior AI Engineer while you're at it.
codegeek · 5h ago
Age is not the main issue. I mean it may make it more difficult but you have a bigger challenge. "Making a move to Software Dev" sounds like you will be entry level in Software world which is really hard right now especially with AI etc.
So the question is "why you if I can hire a 23 year old with possibly more energy, less baggage (most likely they can work longer hours and not have family/kids to worry about etc). That's possibly ageism but when there is a choice b/w an entry level Software Dev who is 23 vs who is 42, who do you think will get priority ?
Now, if you can differentiate yourself where your age becomes a plus and not minus, then we are talking. For example, one can assume you have a lot of real world experience, you have worked in tough conditions with real customers (whatever industry). Can you use that to your advantage and make a better case ? Then you can do it.
comprev · 5h ago
During interviews I make a point about flexibility due to not having my own family, and can also dedicate significantly more time to learning outside of work that perhaps many candidates of a similar age (40-45 bracket) are unable to. I have the same "free time" as a junior dev in their 20s... but with 20yrs Ops experience on top.
It does pay off though and I am delighted when colleagues approach me with a difficult problem to crack. I never take on formal ownership of the problem though, but if I do crack it, my input is well documented (and bonus points: I learned something new).
Cracking some hard problems has earned me a good reputation among the senior engineers & engineering management, and hopefully my future career will benefit from these relationships.
JustExAWS · 1h ago
That is the last tactic I would take at 51 - “I have grown children so I can work crazy hours and do side projects to keep up to date on technology.”
My value proposition is the “Joel Spolsky” value play “I’m smart and get things done” and I can talk them through my history of doing so. That can be either supporting sales by flying out to a customer site or being on a zoom call, leading a large cross discipline implementation, hands on keyboard going from an empty AWS account to a full architecture, deployment pipeline, and an ETL or online backend process with hands on development. They get professionalism not passion.
Don’t get me wrong, I am up to date on the latest back end tech in my niche, Gen AI and know when to use traditional machine learning techniques even though I’m going to defer to the specialists for ML implementations that can’t be done with managed services.
But what I am not going to do is work crazy hours.
codingdave · 4h ago
> when there is a choice b/w an entry level Software Dev who is 23 vs who is 42, who do you think will get priority ?
Seems pretty ageist to even put the question that way. One could absolutely build up a list of specific criteria that often are more true with younger people, but if you don't articulate those criteria and base decisions upon them, and not the age of the candidate, that is straight-up ageism.
Nextgrid · 48m ago
I don't think he is advocating for ageism. He is merely making an observation, which is absolutely true in most companies. You are more likely to get away with overworking and mistreating a youngster than someone with more life experience (who may also have other options and/or savings which gives them the ability to quit), so from an employer's perspective it's a no-brainer (just don't put it in writing, or handwave it as "culture fit" or similar BS).
There are of course some companies who value and capitalize on the experience of older people and have good work-life balance... just don't expect that in your average JS/blockchain/AI shop which is all tech seems to be currently.
Tony_Delco · 5h ago
It’s never too late to learn something new, not even to start in software. Age can bring a different way of looking at problems, shaped by past experiences in different situations and environments.
The path can be tough at the beginning, but if you truly enjoy it, you’re not wasting your time, you’re investing in a new stage of your life.
And this is just my personal opinion: I believe a team should be as diverse as possible. The more different perspectives, the better. A 22-year-old junior doesn’t see things the same way as a 42-year-old junior, and both are valuable and perfectly compatible.
jleyank · 7h ago
I'm way older, but I had the impression that 30-35 was already too old for casual consideration for software development outside specific fields? Which is depressing as science PhD's enter industry at the 26-30 age range...
checker659 · 7h ago
What are you transitioning from?
al_borland · 6h ago
I’d probably stay out of startups. A lot of companies need code written and most of them aren’t “tech” companies in the valley.
I think there is only 1 person on my team under 40.
JustExAWS · 6h ago
I’m not going to give you the BS “you can do an anything if you put your mind to it” answer that many are going to give you here.
If you are in your 40s and 50s and have the experience “you should” for your age, up to date on technology and have built a great network, the world is your oyster.
If none of that is the case, getting a job as a junior developer at any age is a shit show right now. Hell it’s a shit show for people with experience when every job opening gets hundreds of applications within the first day.
Is there some specific area in software engineering that you are drawn to or some application are? There are many applications fields of software development and I think in some large fields it will not be worth trying to compete with junior developers.
Typically, I don't think of software dev as an "industry" in itself, unless you're talking about dev tools etc, but that many industries depend on strong software. Your best bet is to target software problems related to your prior job. This way, your skillsets complement each other. You may not be the best at either side, but your ability to integrate the two could be a strong pt.
Software dev as a tool in your toolbox to fix business problems is a superpower and will actually earn you decent money.
(also, if you use software on your own then it doesn't matter how good you are or whether you conform to any given day's "best practices". Your client pays to get their problem solved, they don't care if it's solved by duct-tape and hot glue)
Just an example: sales roles generally have commission-based compensation that scales with the amount of effort you put in and actually rewards high-performers.
In comparison, the "reward" for effort in a salaried SWE job is more work and to get your token 5% raise early if you're really lucky. And that's after you go through the insane recruitment & interviewing processes.
The SWE salary income might sound high at first glance when you're young and fresh but tops out quickly (and of course that top end has been significantly eroded by inflation), much lower than other roles.
This of course all relative geographically but we're certainly very well compensated compared to other industries.
42 is probably too old for the startup world, which is where the discussions on HN tend to focus, but that is really just one slice of the industry. There are a ton of jobs at larger non-tech companies, where ageism is not as much of a problem. It is slower-paced, lower-paid, more boring... and perfectly acceptable if all you are looking for is a solid stable job.
The bigger challenge is the "junior dev" problem. There is some harsh reality there. But you can probably fight through that if you look for software work in whatever industry you are coming from, so that your couple decades of prior experience is relevant to the work being done by any team you would join.
If Stanford Computer Science graduates aren't landing jobs.
And even 'AI Engineer' roles are hard to come by. I'd be wary.
I’m not dismissing Gen AI at all, I’ve used it for three non chatbot projects so far and it’s made some really previous hard problems easy. But it was just a newer much easier tool in my tool belt that could have been done (probably better) with traditional ML techniques with much more development effort and maintenance overhead.
Problem is: it works. Being against it just puts you at a disadvantage, so enjoy your new "AI Engineer" title. Call yourself Senior AI Engineer while you're at it.
So the question is "why you if I can hire a 23 year old with possibly more energy, less baggage (most likely they can work longer hours and not have family/kids to worry about etc). That's possibly ageism but when there is a choice b/w an entry level Software Dev who is 23 vs who is 42, who do you think will get priority ?
Now, if you can differentiate yourself where your age becomes a plus and not minus, then we are talking. For example, one can assume you have a lot of real world experience, you have worked in tough conditions with real customers (whatever industry). Can you use that to your advantage and make a better case ? Then you can do it.
It does pay off though and I am delighted when colleagues approach me with a difficult problem to crack. I never take on formal ownership of the problem though, but if I do crack it, my input is well documented (and bonus points: I learned something new).
Cracking some hard problems has earned me a good reputation among the senior engineers & engineering management, and hopefully my future career will benefit from these relationships.
My value proposition is the “Joel Spolsky” value play “I’m smart and get things done” and I can talk them through my history of doing so. That can be either supporting sales by flying out to a customer site or being on a zoom call, leading a large cross discipline implementation, hands on keyboard going from an empty AWS account to a full architecture, deployment pipeline, and an ETL or online backend process with hands on development. They get professionalism not passion.
Don’t get me wrong, I am up to date on the latest back end tech in my niche, Gen AI and know when to use traditional machine learning techniques even though I’m going to defer to the specialists for ML implementations that can’t be done with managed services.
But what I am not going to do is work crazy hours.
Seems pretty ageist to even put the question that way. One could absolutely build up a list of specific criteria that often are more true with younger people, but if you don't articulate those criteria and base decisions upon them, and not the age of the candidate, that is straight-up ageism.
There are of course some companies who value and capitalize on the experience of older people and have good work-life balance... just don't expect that in your average JS/blockchain/AI shop which is all tech seems to be currently.
The path can be tough at the beginning, but if you truly enjoy it, you’re not wasting your time, you’re investing in a new stage of your life.
And this is just my personal opinion: I believe a team should be as diverse as possible. The more different perspectives, the better. A 22-year-old junior doesn’t see things the same way as a 42-year-old junior, and both are valuable and perfectly compatible.
I think there is only 1 person on my team under 40.
If you are in your 40s and 50s and have the experience “you should” for your age, up to date on technology and have built a great network, the world is your oyster.
If none of that is the case, getting a job as a junior developer at any age is a shit show right now. Hell it’s a shit show for people with experience when every job opening gets hundreds of applications within the first day.