> The inability for most docks to support the Switch 2 may not be malicious from Nintendo. It might just be a poor or lazy implementation of the USB-C specification
From the verge [0], 2 months ago:
> When I analyze the conversation between the Nintendo Switch 2 and its dock, I can see the two devices begin speaking in Nintendo’s own flavor of “vendor defined” language early in the conversation, before they sign off on any video output. And then, seemingly before the dock confirms that it’s engaged video-out, they send over 30 proprietary “unstructured” messages to one another.
> […]
> According to Antank, which says it checked with its chip supplier, that hexadecimal string “is indeed the current key being used by Nintendo.” My other sources are less sure.
I'm pretty sure lttl's conclusion is plain wrong. It is not JUST lazy USB-C implementation, but a purposefully designed special proprietary protocol on top of USB-C
At least on the video they made it quite clear that they assumed thant Nintendo did it on purpose, but they did not have enough proof to actually say it.
So instead they sad "Nintendo stopped early with developing compatibility"
reactordev · 1m ago
They did this to micro sd cards on the first switch. Looks like they found another way. Nintendo isn’t customer friendly. Gone are the days of the N64 and gone are the days of Nintendo pushing the boundaries of fun and entertainment.
Now, they make underpowered handhelds for kids with proprietary dongles like Apple in hopes of trapping their customers to their platform.
No thanks.
yuiegi · 17m ago
Back in COVID times, when I had all the time in the world, my Switch got bricked after I charged it using my laptop charger. Nintendo refused to honor its warranty, citing some mumbo jumbo about proprietary USB-C hardware. Fortunately, we have pretty good consumer protection laws here in Australia By the end of an entire two month saga, they sent me a brand new Switch.
I always did think it was odd that a USB-C cable that wasnt Nintendo could break my Switch.
spartanatreyu · 3h ago
Didn't know LTT's labs was already running.
I'll be curious to see how their testing and data compares to gamersnexus testing and what their first catching a manufacturer's lies event will be.
gregoryl · 1h ago
I'm surprised it continues to exist at all. The main content ltt puts out these days is purely mass market entertainment. Physical products are still pretty good!
viraptor · 28m ago
You're surprised they still exist... because they target wider audiences?
ffsm8 · 11m ago
No, his point was that the lab isn't necessary for the content ltt is producing, so he expected them to stop the lab project to keep the profits higher
raldi · 23m ago
I was hoping this site was going to be a list of common chargers that worked with the Switch 2.
snailmailman · 3h ago
Interesting. I saw some of their video about this the other day. The video gives the impression that Nintendo is intentionally not supporting external monitors that aren’t the official switch dock.
But the conclusion on this article seems to lean more towards that it could be a mistake or bug. I guess that might be the case - didn’t they screw up USB-C on the switch 1? I know it’s an incredibly complex standard.
I guess the only way to know if it’s intentional or a bug, is if Nintendo updates the switch to fix it. As Linus said in his video, the Nintendo USB isn’t very “universal”.
Gigachad · 2h ago
The Switch 1 had more of an excuse since it was released just as USB-C, particularly the more advanced parts like video out and PD were still very new. And the hardware was likely designed long beforehand.
The Switch 2 came out in a world with widespread standards compliant USB-C.
dagmx · 36m ago
I feel like that’s a significant retcon.
Switch 1 was released in 2017. PD 1.0 was 2013 , and display port out was 2014. Both were supported by numerous devices by the time the switch 1 was out.
Granted they really wanted hdmi alt mode which was 2016 but the switch 1 doesn’t even support display port out which could have been coupled with a converter in the dock.
The simpler reason is that Nintendo both cheaps out on parts and has no incentive to increase compatibility. The number of users who care is not worth it for Nintendo to care, and they’re not afoul of any regulations.
hsbauauvhabzb · 3h ago
The ltt video didn’t suggest it was intentional, it was careful not to. But Nintendo were certainly aware of it before release.
masklinn · 43m ago
The video did very much suggest it was intentional but did so implicitly.
It explicitly stopped short of explicitly suggesting it due to a lack of evidence.
snailmailman · 2h ago
It was certainly heavily implied to be intentional. With the title referencing "Nintendo’s greed"[0] and in the first minute they call it “locking down a product, not for a good reason, but just because [nintendo] can, or […] because <bleep> you”
It’s not until much further in the video that they backtrack a bit and call it “tactical laziness” by Nintendo. Honestly, I did not get that far on my first watch.
[0] YouTube now confusingly shows different titles randomly. I’m seeing “Nintendo’s Greed could Change the Tech Industry” but that may not be its real title for all I know.
Gigachad · 2h ago
Modern youtube has uploaders submit multiple thumbnails and headlines, then it AB tests them and selects the one that performed best. Pretty much every news website seems to do the same thing these days too.
Barbing · 2h ago
re: [0], that’ll likely be the uploader modifying the title - they test titles and thumbnails until one grabs attention
See Tom Scott video, “this video has 74 million views“ (quantity subject to change in future)
xahrepap · 1h ago
I tried to use a USB-C HDMI dongle I had. But I assumed it was because the switch 2 was looking for something that could deliver enough power and actively cool it, like the first party dock does.
viraptor · 2h ago
Some labels/descriptions could use a bit more polish. For example in test 8 "Averages 15 W delivered to the Switch at maximum." - I kinda see what they mean, but that's a very awkward way to phrase it. The maximum is over 20W. There's a few spikes that go over. I guess that's the maximum for a moving average? For their labs, they could be more precise.
bubblebeard · 1h ago
Just one more reason not to buy a Switch 2. Seriously, Nintendo has become worse than Apple when it comes to treating their customers. I own hundreds of Nintendo games and every console they ever made, sometimes in multiples. But when I saw of all the shit they were trying to pull with the Switch 2 I decided I was done with that company for good.
franky47 · 3h ago
I own a Switch 1, and the other day I wanted to play on the train, but the battery was low. I figured "no problem, I can connect it to my laptop and let it charge off is battery".
Nope. The MacBook Pro started charging off the Switch instead.
red369 · 1h ago
I was really excited when I learned that unplugging the cable, waiting some short period of time and plugging it back in, triggers a power-role swap.
I've only tried it out on one occasion, and I'm not clear on the delay, or whether both ends need to be disconnected or only one. I was a little surprised it isn't talked about more.
stephen_g · 1h ago
Is that for a specific device? For standard dual-role USB-C devices they do a negotiation that is partially based on chance which power role they land on (but they can have policy that strongly prefers one role over the other).
behnamoh · 2h ago
This happens with one of my powerbanks! If connected to a USB hub as a USB device (not as the power source), it still starts charging my Macbook which is connected to the hub.
parhamn · 3h ago
I've wondered how this works (and who wins).
scottapotamas · 2h ago
For two DRP (dual role) devices connected to each other, I believe in a default case the one that happens to advertise as a source first just becomes one.
The standard allows for a role swap at any point while connected, and if that’s triggered will be dependent on the firmware/config on one or both ends.
There’s probably more nuance hiding in the real world hardware too.
stephen_g · 1h ago
They can also prefer one role, with a mechanism called Try.SNK and Try.SRC (‘try sink’ / ‘try source’).
Basically DRPs toggle back and forth between sink and source until they happen to match up (one side has switched to source and one to sink). If it doesn’t prefer to do the role it’s resolved to randomly, it can switch to the other way and wait a bit - if the other side is fine with it then it will switch too and everyone is happy, if not you can switch back.
We use this for a device that can on-charge a device when it has external power plugged in (in which case we prefer source role) but not when running on battery (in which case we prefer sink but don’t actually pull any power because it’s self powered).
> Any DRP port must have pull-down 5k1 resistors on CC wires (as a sink), AND 10-22-56k pull-ups (as provider), but not at the same time. The DRP then alternates the sink advertising (5k1 pull-downs) with pull-ups (source advertising) about 10 to 20 times per second.
> If another DRP is connected, they both will toggle their advertising until a correct (pull-up - pull-down) combination occurs. Then CC controller(s) will stop toggling, and the end that happens to be in provider mode will provide +5VSAFE VBUS. The process will end in one or other direction, which will happen at random (since frequencies of toggling are independent).
franky47 · 1h ago
A protocol designed on who wins an race condition? That's wild.
toast0 · 38m ago
Ethernet has been doing this kind of thing for four decades. With only two nodes and short cables, you'll rapidly converge.
causality0 · 1h ago
I don't think it's a coincidence that both Switch 1 and Switch 2's usb-c compliance is a shambling wreck. It's pretty clear to me it's a good way to sow doubt and disability in the industry of third-party docks while maintaining perfect plausible deniability.
qwertytyyuu · 4h ago
Woah, Lttlabs on hacker news front page!
ls612 · 3h ago
They put up a video the other day with the summary of this testing, but it’s cool that the full table is now available.
> The inability for most docks to support the Switch 2 may not be malicious from Nintendo. It might just be a poor or lazy implementation of the USB-C specification
From the verge [0], 2 months ago:
> When I analyze the conversation between the Nintendo Switch 2 and its dock, I can see the two devices begin speaking in Nintendo’s own flavor of “vendor defined” language early in the conversation, before they sign off on any video output. And then, seemingly before the dock confirms that it’s engaged video-out, they send over 30 proprietary “unstructured” messages to one another.
> […]
> According to Antank, which says it checked with its chip supplier, that hexadecimal string “is indeed the current key being used by Nintendo.” My other sources are less sure.
I'm pretty sure lttl's conclusion is plain wrong. It is not JUST lazy USB-C implementation, but a purposefully designed special proprietary protocol on top of USB-C
[0] https://www.theverge.com/report/695915/switch-2-usb-c-third-...
So instead they sad "Nintendo stopped early with developing compatibility"
Now, they make underpowered handhelds for kids with proprietary dongles like Apple in hopes of trapping their customers to their platform.
No thanks.
I always did think it was odd that a USB-C cable that wasnt Nintendo could break my Switch.
I'll be curious to see how their testing and data compares to gamersnexus testing and what their first catching a manufacturer's lies event will be.
But the conclusion on this article seems to lean more towards that it could be a mistake or bug. I guess that might be the case - didn’t they screw up USB-C on the switch 1? I know it’s an incredibly complex standard.
I guess the only way to know if it’s intentional or a bug, is if Nintendo updates the switch to fix it. As Linus said in his video, the Nintendo USB isn’t very “universal”.
The Switch 2 came out in a world with widespread standards compliant USB-C.
Switch 1 was released in 2017. PD 1.0 was 2013 , and display port out was 2014. Both were supported by numerous devices by the time the switch 1 was out.
Granted they really wanted hdmi alt mode which was 2016 but the switch 1 doesn’t even support display port out which could have been coupled with a converter in the dock.
The simpler reason is that Nintendo both cheaps out on parts and has no incentive to increase compatibility. The number of users who care is not worth it for Nintendo to care, and they’re not afoul of any regulations.
It explicitly stopped short of explicitly suggesting it due to a lack of evidence.
It’s not until much further in the video that they backtrack a bit and call it “tactical laziness” by Nintendo. Honestly, I did not get that far on my first watch.
[0] YouTube now confusingly shows different titles randomly. I’m seeing “Nintendo’s Greed could Change the Tech Industry” but that may not be its real title for all I know.
See Tom Scott video, “this video has 74 million views“ (quantity subject to change in future)
Nope. The MacBook Pro started charging off the Switch instead.
I've only tried it out on one occasion, and I'm not clear on the delay, or whether both ends need to be disconnected or only one. I was a little surprised it isn't talked about more.
The standard allows for a role swap at any point while connected, and if that’s triggered will be dependent on the firmware/config on one or both ends.
There’s probably more nuance hiding in the real world hardware too.
Basically DRPs toggle back and forth between sink and source until they happen to match up (one side has switched to source and one to sink). If it doesn’t prefer to do the role it’s resolved to randomly, it can switch to the other way and wait a bit - if the other side is fine with it then it will switch too and everyone is happy, if not you can switch back.
We use this for a device that can on-charge a device when it has external power plugged in (in which case we prefer source role) but not when running on battery (in which case we prefer sink but don’t actually pull any power because it’s self powered).
> Any DRP port must have pull-down 5k1 resistors on CC wires (as a sink), AND 10-22-56k pull-ups (as provider), but not at the same time. The DRP then alternates the sink advertising (5k1 pull-downs) with pull-ups (source advertising) about 10 to 20 times per second.
> If another DRP is connected, they both will toggle their advertising until a correct (pull-up - pull-down) combination occurs. Then CC controller(s) will stop toggling, and the end that happens to be in provider mode will provide +5VSAFE VBUS. The process will end in one or other direction, which will happen at random (since frequencies of toggling are independent).