This offhand remark would likely have disappeared unnoticed if not for a doctoral student who had taken it upon himself to patrol the internet.
The student filled out a criminal complaint form on Göring-Eckardt’s behalf and sent it to her. She signed and forwarded it to the police, setting off the first of several investigations into Vierhaus’s social media activity.
The student had already filed complaints against Vierhaus for allegedly insulting several politicians, including Ricarda Lang, Janine Wissler, and Otto Köhler.
I'd imagine plenty of folks on X or Bluesky would rejoice in this power: avenging imagined wrongs on behalf of their political masters. Lots of illusion and little accountability, perfect for the online mob.
arduanika · 3h ago
It's a bit counterintuitive. Düsseldorf is in West Germany, but this here is some Stasi behavior.
alkyon · 3h ago
This might have its roots in Nazi era when even children happened to denounce their parents to the Gestapo.
"Several historians have claimed that ordinary citizens who volunteered information on suspected infringements of the letter or spirit of the laws played a crucial role in everyday terror under Hitler's dictatorship"
jihadjihad · 4h ago
Initially upvoted because it's disturbing, but can anyone corroborate this story? There are no mainstream mentions of this story or this person Thomas Vierhaus, and I am using the word "mainstream" pretty liberally.
The only mention I can find is an all-German article in The Epoch Times, which is far from a mainstream source of news [0].
It became a very common thing recently that German politians are working together with companies which scan social media sites for posts with insults and file cease and desist orders with money penalities or taking it even further to court.
Check for Robert Habeck and Strack-Zimmermann for example which both served over 1000 of those earning hundreds of thousands euros.
The case with Thomas Vierhaus is even quite old but he apperently refused to pay and got a Strafbefehl now which he appealed.
jihadjihad · 3h ago
Again, where are the sources for any of these claims? These are unsubstantiated by evidence.
The Epoch Times article[0] cites an article by Apollo News[0]. I'm not particularly familiar with either. This appears to be Mr Vierhous's X handle: https://x.com/ThomasVierhaus, which includes a retweet of a tweet by someone claiming to be handling this case on Thomas' behalf and this tweet[2] which appears to show the citation he was served.
If it's a ruse, they've gone through a lot of trouble.
> If it's a ruse, they've gone through a lot of trouble.
Apollo News [1] has a Controversies section on the German Wikipedia in which the same Green Party member mentioned in TFA whom the "German Economist" allegedly posted on X about (Katrin Göring-Eckardt) had statements which "were 'distorted beyond recognition' in a TikTok video by Apollo News."
I'd say that their entire business is going through trouble for ruses like these, and that therefore they are not worth our time.
Apollo News sounds like German Fox News. But it looks like the citation behind "distorted beyond recognition" is itself misleading. The fact-check admits:
> At a discussion event, Green Party politician Katrin Göring-Eckardt advocated for networks where East Germans who have problems with right-wing relatives can register
The rest of the cited fact check searches for technicalities to diminish Apollo's conclusion that the politician wanted "denunciation of relatives". In my reckoning, the politician's rhetoric was not "distorted beyond recognition"; rather, the consequence of their rhetoric was highlighted.
IMHO, I wouldn't dismiss semi-reputable news sources so easily. I think it's valuable to hear the other side (https://ground.news/blindspot) especially when the fact-checkers/media on my side prefer that I just swallow the party line.
marcusverus · 2h ago
It's good to be skeptical, but if you ignored every news sites that had ever been accused of a single act of deceptive wording, there wouldn't be any left to read from!
Having read about the controversy in question, it's hard to agree that her words were 'distorted beyond recognition'. She advocated for government centers where Germans could go to talk to a government employee about mean right-wingers, and be provided with propaganda materials (literally, she suggested these centers should provide information on how to respond to right-wing slogans) to counteract the reactionaries. Apollo News characterized this as akin to advocating for the East German practice of denunciation, in which people could report wrong-think to the Stasi. Not much of a leap!
This is nothing new - Germany has always had pretty "strict" libel laws. Eg there have been "200,827 investigated cases as of 2009" [1].
I think this post comes in light of Europe being seen as curtailing free speech recently. Europe and the US have always had different ideas on the limits of free speech.
Well, Germany has no idea about free speech and freedom. They only know the moral high ground, and they see their citizen as property that must be controlled and can't be trusted.
In the US it is otherwise around. The founding fathers thought, that the government can't be trusted. The result is that the US Constitution is 250 years old and Germany has one failed state after another. Also, the current German state will fail. Likely within the next 10 years.
foxtacles · 3h ago
Unfortunately I have to agree with this take. This plus the anti-innovation and risk-averse culture is what drove me out of the country. Living in the United States now and enjoying the environment much more.
(source: born and raised in Germany, lived there for 30 years)
V__ · 2h ago
That really is not a good takeaway.
Regarding free speech: How many arrests happen in the U.S. at town halls, school assemblies etc. because someone says something the board or mayor doesn't like? How often do police officers arrest people for filming them and so on? The courts typically side with you, however let's not pretend there aren't any consequences. Be it jail or police brutality.
Regarding the U.S. constitution: It is worthless. If the president can ignore it without consequence and the supreme court and congress doesn't care, what is the point?
It may very well be that the state might fail, but let's be honest not before the U.S. will.
skeeter2020 · 3h ago
>> target citizens for speech deemed offensive, sarcastic, or politically incorrect...
does not seem like "libel" - unless the person is most definitely not a nincompoop^1
^1 noun - A silly, foolish, or stupid person.
Could you imagine if the worst thing you heard in US media was "so-and-so is silly and foolish!" ?
balfirevic · 3h ago
> This is nothing new
Well, it's authoritarian bullshit and deserves contempt. There is nothing redeeming int the fact that it's been going on for a long time.
NoMoreNicksLeft · 3h ago
>This is nothing new - Germany has always had pretty "strict" libel laws.
If the police are involved, then this isn't even libel in the way that people from the United States tend to think of it. In the US, libel is strictly a tort, and while you might get zinged for some large sum, only lawyers are involved and not the cops. Hell, the standard's pretty high too, has to be both damaging and a statement of fact that the libeler knew to be untrue.
SanjayMehta · 3h ago
Whenever I’ve pointed out the pathetic state of “freedom of speech” in the EU, I’ve been downvoted here.
Laughable, but “freedoms” are what the EU and NATO claim to export to the world.
jijijijij · 3h ago
> I think this post comes in light of Europe being seen as curtailing free speech recently.
Which is motivated by foreign need of influence.
I mean, the blog linked here is most certainly associated with an American thinktank, even if registered in the UK, judging by their curious selection of articles and lack of identifying information. Rather unlikely, some intrinsically motivated individuals got the time to write several articles per day, but mostly concerned with European matters "hostile" to American social media influence, and advertising for American right-wing influencers and Trump's politics.
Fun fact: Registered On 2018-08-08, Expires On 2033-08-08. Conspiracy isn't my vice, so I won't hold that as evidence of anything, but it sure as hell is a hilarious coincidence for a political bias.
Not to dismiss the topic in the article here, although I think stylizing personal insults as a pillar of democracy and freedom is a bit silly.
By the way, is it legal in the UK, or the US to accept donations and sell merch, disclosing nothing but an domain-bound email address? Seems like this would allow liability evasion, tax fraud and money laundering.
idiomat9000 · 3h ago
The establishment is loosing it and they dislike that reality and like all true left democrats at heart would rather vote for a new citizenry to replace the old.
bootsmann · 3h ago
The website linked in the OP strongly supports the current US administration, how are they anything other than mainstream?
NitpickLawyer · 3h ago
This source is highly dubious. Everything they link is to their own articles, the tone feels "off", and the snippet X post reads to me like any other rage-bait from "facebook groups" that get sent via e-mail by boomers. Reader beware.
Maybe just don't insult people. Doesn't seem hard.
lordkrandel · 1h ago
Insult is not freedom of speech.
78932459283568 · 1h ago
Calls for mass murder fall under freedom of speech if they are made by followers of the regime. Calling a corrupt minister an idiot results in a police raid.
gamma42 · 3h ago
This article is a pathetic joke. His "sarcastic" posts are downplaying climate crises. Get real.
edit: this post of mine is then suppressed. Geniuses at hackernews at work!
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20756166
"Several historians have claimed that ordinary citizens who volunteered information on suspected infringements of the letter or spirit of the laws played a crucial role in everyday terror under Hitler's dictatorship"
The only mention I can find is an all-German article in The Epoch Times, which is far from a mainstream source of news [0].
0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times
Check for Robert Habeck and Strack-Zimmermann for example which both served over 1000 of those earning hundreds of thousands euros.
The case with Thomas Vierhaus is even quite old but he apperently refused to pay and got a Strafbefehl now which he appealed.
If it's a ruse, they've gone through a lot of trouble.
[0] https://archive.is/mDQ3u [1] https://archive.is/SEyzo [2] https://x.com/ThomasVierhaus/status/1957345154420895946
Apollo News [1] has a Controversies section on the German Wikipedia in which the same Green Party member mentioned in TFA whom the "German Economist" allegedly posted on X about (Katrin Göring-Eckardt) had statements which "were 'distorted beyond recognition' in a TikTok video by Apollo News."
I'd say that their entire business is going through trouble for ruses like these, and that therefore they are not worth our time.
1: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_News
> At a discussion event, Green Party politician Katrin Göring-Eckardt advocated for networks where East Germans who have problems with right-wing relatives can register
The rest of the cited fact check searches for technicalities to diminish Apollo's conclusion that the politician wanted "denunciation of relatives". In my reckoning, the politician's rhetoric was not "distorted beyond recognition"; rather, the consequence of their rhetoric was highlighted.
IMHO, I wouldn't dismiss semi-reputable news sources so easily. I think it's valuable to hear the other side (https://ground.news/blindspot) especially when the fact-checkers/media on my side prefer that I just swallow the party line.
Having read about the controversy in question, it's hard to agree that her words were 'distorted beyond recognition'. She advocated for government centers where Germans could go to talk to a government employee about mean right-wingers, and be provided with propaganda materials (literally, she suggested these centers should provide information on how to respond to right-wing slogans) to counteract the reactionaries. Apollo News characterized this as akin to advocating for the East German practice of denunciation, in which people could report wrong-think to the Stasi. Not much of a leap!
I think this post comes in light of Europe being seen as curtailing free speech recently. Europe and the US have always had different ideas on the limits of free speech.
[1] https://kellywarnerlaw.com/germany-defamation-laws
In the US it is otherwise around. The founding fathers thought, that the government can't be trusted. The result is that the US Constitution is 250 years old and Germany has one failed state after another. Also, the current German state will fail. Likely within the next 10 years.
(source: born and raised in Germany, lived there for 30 years)
Regarding free speech: How many arrests happen in the U.S. at town halls, school assemblies etc. because someone says something the board or mayor doesn't like? How often do police officers arrest people for filming them and so on? The courts typically side with you, however let's not pretend there aren't any consequences. Be it jail or police brutality.
Regarding the U.S. constitution: It is worthless. If the president can ignore it without consequence and the supreme court and congress doesn't care, what is the point?
It may very well be that the state might fail, but let's be honest not before the U.S. will.
does not seem like "libel" - unless the person is most definitely not a nincompoop^1
^1 noun - A silly, foolish, or stupid person.
Could you imagine if the worst thing you heard in US media was "so-and-so is silly and foolish!" ?
Well, it's authoritarian bullshit and deserves contempt. There is nothing redeeming int the fact that it's been going on for a long time.
If the police are involved, then this isn't even libel in the way that people from the United States tend to think of it. In the US, libel is strictly a tort, and while you might get zinged for some large sum, only lawyers are involved and not the cops. Hell, the standard's pretty high too, has to be both damaging and a statement of fact that the libeler knew to be untrue.
Laughable, but “freedoms” are what the EU and NATO claim to export to the world.
Which is motivated by foreign need of influence.
I mean, the blog linked here is most certainly associated with an American thinktank, even if registered in the UK, judging by their curious selection of articles and lack of identifying information. Rather unlikely, some intrinsically motivated individuals got the time to write several articles per day, but mostly concerned with European matters "hostile" to American social media influence, and advertising for American right-wing influencers and Trump's politics.
Fun fact: Registered On 2018-08-08, Expires On 2033-08-08. Conspiracy isn't my vice, so I won't hold that as evidence of anything, but it sure as hell is a hilarious coincidence for a political bias.
Not to dismiss the topic in the article here, although I think stylizing personal insults as a pillar of democracy and freedom is a bit silly.
By the way, is it legal in the UK, or the US to accept donations and sell merch, disclosing nothing but an domain-bound email address? Seems like this would allow liability evasion, tax fraud and money laundering.
This site was also discussed a week ago here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44953549
edit: this post of mine is then suppressed. Geniuses at hackernews at work!