Ah the dirty State that let you build a flourishing company in the frame of its society and infrastructure, and won’t let leave you with everything in your pocket once you siphonned every little drop of economical value you could get out of it!
How is that not the case in all economical areas is beyond any sense of morale decency so the only point the article has is to point out the Lichtenstein loophole.
On the other extreme of the moral spectrum, I guess that it points to a possible startup idea about scaling fiscal evasion of the mildly successful company with a turn key solution.
bigstrat2003 · 1h ago
Presumably you paid for that infrastructure in the form of taxes while you did business in the country. Why, then, should the state have additional claims on the money you made? Were the taxes they collected already not enough?
nbadg · 56m ago
That's not what the exit tax is, though. The German exit tax is effectively just a way to give the existing capital gains tax a way to tax unrealized gains when you leave the country, to prevent you from dodging taxes on capital gains by simply leaving the country.
In other words, it's not an additional claim. It's simply an enforcement mechanism for the money you already hypothetically owe.
olieidel · 36m ago
Yes, that's true, but the implementation is.. not very elegant.
In theory, the exit tax should ensure that Germany gets the taxes of the sale of your company. So, if you ever sold your company once you're no longer in Germany, Germany wouldn't get those taxes, so it charges you immediately once you leave Germany in a sort-of "virtual" sale.
This, of course, sucks tremendously because you actually haven't sold your company, and "normal" people don't have this sort of cash on hand.
Other countries have "smarter" exit tax implementations and only charge you when you actually sell your company in the future. I think that's pretty fair. It also doesn't hinder people from leaving the country.
elpocko · 45m ago
In Germany only 40+% of your income goes to taxes and social security. Plus another meager ~20% on most things you buy. Plus a small tax on many things that are supposedly bad for you, like ~70% on cigarettes. Death is taxed at a discount, only 15-40% depending on how rich you were.
"Free" healthcare though.
olieidel · 2h ago
While rather sarcastic, your comment does hit an interesting point: How much does the infrastructure and society of any given state contribute to the "building" of a company?
I'd argue that, for software companies, not very much; at least if you contrast it with a hardware company. If you're, say, forging steel, you're using roads, trains, a lot of electricity, you've got an industrial plant, worker unions, public accident insurance, etc., etc. - a significant chunk of state-associated infrastructure is a part of your business, and was a part of your business when you built it.
But for software companies? I mean, you need a stable internet connection, good mobile phone coverage (tricky in Germany sometimes), rule of law, efficient bureaucracy (e.g. when hiring people), good banks which don't lose your money, electricity, etc. - none of these "infrastructure factors" feel as big as the ones for a hardware business.
On the contrary, for a software business, one could argue that Germany is actively hostile to you: Founding a company takes weeks / months and is expensive (notary), most processes are still paper-based, hiring people (especially internationally) is a huge pain, mobile internet is spotty, residential internet has outages. Charging customer credit cards via Stripe exposes you to a rabbit hole of VAT bureaucracy - all companies I've met so far rolled their own, broken software stack to somehow match up their Stripe + VAT charges with their internal bookkeeping software (e.g. Datev). A huge mess. It doesn't end there.
But I may be wrong.
mensetmanusman · 1h ago
You need peace, law enforcement, trust in others to lower stress and increase creativity, good teachers and education.
Someone growing up in a society is strongly an outcome of that society.
caseysoftware · 51m ago
> You need peace, law enforcement, trust in others to lower stress and increase creativity, good teachers and education.
This is a great point.
The flip side is that if a government fails to deliver those, they have failed their side of the social contract. Then ideally, the citizens they've failed should be able to opt out..
olieidel · 1h ago
What about a software company founded in Germany by someone who grew up in another country, and accordingly got their education elsewhere?
What if that company is a remote company which hires people all over the world, and none of those people benefited from the {education|peace|law enforcement|trust} in Germany?
I do agree with you, in principle, that a company is somewhat coupled to the country it was founded in. The exact nature of that coupling, however, is not that simple, I would say.
Reality is complicated, I suppose :)
EndsOfnversion · 59m ago
Lets drop you into the mid Cretaceous period and see how far your education takes you.
Without the contributions of millions of others on a daily basis you’d have nothing.
neves · 50m ago
It looks like education is cheap.
carstenhag · 1h ago
"If you comply here, you will be compliant in almost all EU countries or even around the world" situation, many qualified students, international talent pool due to attractive cities, quality of life, startup grants/funding, hotspot for B2B fairs...
toofy · 9m ago
yep, there’s a reason these people start their businesses in stable economied countries, yet certain groups of them do everything to pretend they owe nothing back.
i’d love to see a comprehensive study on how much corporate tax avoidance costs a country vs food stamps so we can get an accurate view on who leeches/gains more. my suspicion is corporate wage theft/tax avoidance/evasion/subsidies are significantly higher, particularly if we add in executives and major stock holders.
tticvs · 45m ago
You'd have a point if Germany did anything to actually support businesses scaling instead of trying to kneecap them at every turn
msukkarieh · 48m ago
I think most people would be okay with an exit tax if it's reasonable. Requiring the owner of a business generating €20k in profit to then pay €70k in taxes is not reasonable.
Canada also has an unreasonable exit tax. Canadian founders are taxed on 50% of the FMV of their shares on departure. So if you own half of a company that is worth $50m, your taxable income for the year of departure is increased by $12.5m.
olieidel · 33m ago
Agreed. As mentioned in another comment, I think it'd be fair to levy the exit tax when you actually sell your company in the future. Like, if I ever sell my business, I'd be happy to pay my fair share of German taxes on said business, even if I'd no longer be a tax resident of Germany.
The current implementation which essentially simulates a "virtual" sale of your business once you leave the country is pretty terrible, as most normal humans don't have that sort of cash on hand because, well, they actually didn't sell their business at that point in time.
Interesting pointer on Canada - thanks!
dash2 · 15m ago
Man soll den Flüchtlingen aus Deutschland keine Träne nachweinen, eh?
wagwang · 50m ago
Yes globalism is bad :) outside of certain forms of trade. Next up, remittances.
ghufran_syed · 2h ago
Perhaps you would apply the same logic to a family car, or the clothing you bought? Should they tax the value of your medical degree when you leave the country?
toast0 · 1h ago
I would assume that logic is applied.
Exit taxes are generally applied as if the taxpayer sold all capital assets on the day of leaving.
At least in the US taxation regime (I'm unfamiliar with others), family cars don't qualify for a capital loss, and rarely appreciate. Clothing would be similar.
But it doesn't seem unreasonable that a country should want to be paid tax on unrealized gains as you're leaving. It would probably be more fair to wait until the gains were realized and then apportion the gains among the countries of residence, but if you're leaving, it's going to be hard to compel your participation later, so it makes more sense to do it as you're leaving.
neves · 48m ago
Yes.
Remember that in Germany you don't pay for University degrees. High education isn't just for a wealthy minority.
dzhiurgis · 29m ago
> State that let you build
Excuse me, why I need state permission for building business?
hasnd · 1h ago
You talk as if society and the infrastructure society paid for somehow belonged to the state.
wmf · 2h ago
In many cases people want to move precisely because Germany doesn't provide as good infrastructure for startups as other countries.
Also, the "you can't leave because you owe society" argument, while not necessarily wrong, is strongly associated with the abuses of Communism.
eqvinox · 2h ago
> And then your exit tax is calculated by taking the average of the past 3 years of earnings of that company, multiplied by 13.75 (which is crazy), and then taking 60% of that which is taxed at your personal income tax rate (likely 42%; Teileinkünfteverfahren)
This does not match the results from 5 minutes of googling, not for individuals at least. What is being taxed is the shares you're holding, as if you're selling them, which results in a tax on their increase in value compared to when you've bought them. [disclaimer: I just did a quick search on this, I'm not a tax consultant or lawyer.]
I haven't looked for the regulations on companies moving their headquarters away from Germany. It's possible those rules are the above, and the author confused them with the rules for individuals.
Either way, if the author believes they're right, they should dig up some citations. There are none in that article. Is this based on advice they've received? Did they do their own research? Are they a tax consultant or lawyer? 13.75 is a very "spottable" number, how about a link to the law that has that number?
olieidel · 2h ago
Author here. Sure, here are the sources:
- First off, your assumption is wrong that only the increase in value gets taxed. No, the entire value of your holding gets taxed, see § 6 Abs. 1 Satz 1 Außensteuergesetz (AStG) [1].
- The factor 13.75 originates from the calculation method called "vereinfachtes Ertragswertverfahren" (~ simplified earnings-based method), which itself is defined in Bewertungsgesetz (BewG), § 11 Wertpapiere und Anteile [2]
- Factor 13.75 is defined in Bewertungsgesetz (BewG), § 203 Kapitalisierungsfaktor [3]
- The tax rate of 42% is the marginal tax rate in Germany (at least below €250k income, beyond that it's 45%) - so the assumption here is that, in the year in which you leave Germany, you've already had some salary income (say, €90k) which bumps you into the marginal tax rate for any additional income on top of that.
> - First off, your assumption is wrong that only the increase in value gets taxed. No, the entire value of your holding gets taxed, see § 6 Abs. 1 Satz 1 Außensteuergesetz (AStG) [1].
You're misreading that law. It says moving away is equivalent to selling shares and that §17 EStG is applicable. Which in turn says:
(2) Veräußerungsgewinn im Sinne des Absatzes 1 ist der Betrag, um den der Veräußerungspreis nach Abzug der Veräußerungskosten die Anschaffungskosten übersteigt.
> - The factor 13.75 originates from the calculation method called "vereinfachtes Ertragswertverfahren" (~ simplified earnings-based method), which itself is defined in Bewertungsgesetz (BewG), § 11 Wertpapiere und Anteile [2]
§199 BewG says "…kann das vereinfachte Ertragswertverfahren (§ 200) angewendet werden, wenn dieses nicht zu offensichtlich unzutreffenden Ergebnissen führt."
Key phrase there being "kann". It doesn't have to. You can probably sue against it getting applied, if they're really insisting on it. And note §11 BewG says:
"…so ist er unter Berücksichtigung der Ertragsaussichten der Kapitalgesellschaft oder einer anderen anerkannten, auch im gewöhnlichen Geschäftsverkehr für nichtsteuerliche Zwecke üblichen Methode zu ermitteln; dabei ist die Methode anzuwenden, die ein Erwerber der Bemessung des Kaufpreises zu Grunde legen würde…"
So, finding a reasonable method that a buyer would use to determine the values of the shares is explicitly pointed out.
olieidel · 2h ago
Good points!
1. Yeah, valid - I was assuming the default case of "you founded your company in Germany and are moving away at some stage". In that case, you could deduct the initial share capital (often €25k) from the valuation, as that was your "purchase price". In most cases, that doesn't lead to a significantly different outcome.
But yeah, if you actually bought shares of an existing company at a certain (higher) price, than of course the "taxable delta" might change your calculation.
In that respect, I was wrong as I assumed everything would get taxed. This is only roughly the case when you founded the company yourself in Germany, as mentioned above. Thanks for the correction!
2. True! As mentioned in my post, you can also pay someone to assess the value of your shares, which would most likely result in a valuation lower than 13.75x. You will have the additional costs of getting that assessment though, and you'll have to convince the authorities that your assessment is closer to the truth than the default valuation which is based on 13.75x.
1R053 · 2h ago
While that number seems to be not a general value, the "Wegzugsbesteuerung" still is significant.
Essentially, it assumes you sell your assets at market value and taxes the difference to your expenses for it.
eqvinox · 2h ago
That's what I was trying to say ("What is being taxed is the shares you're holding, as if you're selling them,") … did I word that poorly/confusingly?
jansan · 2h ago
They basically treat you as if you sold your shares or company when leaving the country. If you run a one man company that is currently making a good profit, this can become really expensive.
olieidel · 2h ago
Exactly. And they, by default, use a very high multiple (13.75) for calculating the value of your shares.
Does this apply to non-resident owners/founders (big shareholders that don't live in Germany) of German companies when they sell their shares?
neves · 51m ago
Germany waives its taxes to encourage small businesses, and when they grow, they go elsewhere.
It seems that capitalists should never be encouraged. They lack any sense of morality.
akersten · 2h ago
Is there a look back period? What stops me from selling my business to my buddy the day I leave and then buying it back the day after?
olieidel · 2h ago
Yup, this is possible. It would have to be at some fair market value, and you'd (obviously) have to tax that in Germany. And depending on how much you trust your buddy, you might or might not have to draft up some complicated legal framework that you indeed have the right to buy back your company at some stage :)
jansan · 2h ago
Nothing. But you will have to pay taxes on the money you get from your buddy. If he is paying too little, you may get into additional trouble.
alephnerd · 4h ago
Something I've noticed with German business law is that it is very much structured in such a way that if you aren't an incumbent player, you are essentially incentivized to be absorbed by them.
In the US we do have issues with businesses, but it's not like the Bosch, Thyssen, or Tschira family are any less unethical.
The level of hierarchy I've noticed in German firms and founders is insane to say the least. I'd love to do some quantitative research into this, but I haven't been in academia or policy for years now.
tdullien · 2h ago
German here. I fully agree that German companies tend to be crazy hierarchical.
dismalaf · 2h ago
Canada also has an exit tax. For individuals as well as businesses.
lostmsu · 56m ago
At least Canada steps us cost basis upon becoming resident AFAIU.
lifestyleguru · 2h ago
also buy fax machine, dozen ring binders, and paper shredder before you start that business
olieidel · 2h ago
Also:
- A printer (the most important equipment of any German startup founder)
- Envelopes for letters
- A stamp with your company name (some companies and agencies you deal with require you to stamp things, because a stamp obviously proves, beyond any doubt, that you are acting on behalf of your company, because obviously no one would be able to create a similar stamp with your company's name on it, right)
- A virtual office address at a coworking space (because you're receiving physical mail, and also there are weird tax reasons not to register your company at your home address)
- A mail-scanning service (because you don't want to walk to the coworking space every few days to pick up your physical mail)
- A mail-forwarding service (so that the mail gets forwarded from your virtual office address, which now has exactly no purpose at all, to your mail-scanning service)
djoldman · 53m ago
Given that this kind of thing seems to be widely reported, are there any significant efforts to reduce the friction all this causes?
olieidel · 29m ago
Pretty much all political parties loudly announce that they'll reduce bureaucracy, but, judging by the outcomes, not much has happened so far.
That being said, it's probably overly simplistic to blame political parties for this - there's a lot of e.g. county/state-level bureaucracy in Germany which gets in the way of making any sort of constructive changes. It's a bit like blaming the CEO of a bloated company for not making it "agile" in a short period of time. Sure, leadership is important, but the reality is, it's.. complicated.
isoprophlex · 2h ago
And the right color pen. God forbid you fill in an official form in the wrong color pen.
42lux · 2h ago
Can't use your rainbow colored pen in the states either...
lifestyleguru · 2h ago
I would think it's a joke but once literally had an office clerk in Germany scratching with fingernail my signature to check whether it's by pen and in the right color.
knallfrosch · 47m ago
Signatures that can be erased easily aren't a great fit for a legally binding document.
For more information, you can check whether the ink complies with DIN ISO 12757-2 and/or read up on "Dokumentenechtheit" [1]
How is that not the case in all economical areas is beyond any sense of morale decency so the only point the article has is to point out the Lichtenstein loophole.
On the other extreme of the moral spectrum, I guess that it points to a possible startup idea about scaling fiscal evasion of the mildly successful company with a turn key solution.
In other words, it's not an additional claim. It's simply an enforcement mechanism for the money you already hypothetically owe.
In theory, the exit tax should ensure that Germany gets the taxes of the sale of your company. So, if you ever sold your company once you're no longer in Germany, Germany wouldn't get those taxes, so it charges you immediately once you leave Germany in a sort-of "virtual" sale.
This, of course, sucks tremendously because you actually haven't sold your company, and "normal" people don't have this sort of cash on hand.
Other countries have "smarter" exit tax implementations and only charge you when you actually sell your company in the future. I think that's pretty fair. It also doesn't hinder people from leaving the country.
"Free" healthcare though.
I'd argue that, for software companies, not very much; at least if you contrast it with a hardware company. If you're, say, forging steel, you're using roads, trains, a lot of electricity, you've got an industrial plant, worker unions, public accident insurance, etc., etc. - a significant chunk of state-associated infrastructure is a part of your business, and was a part of your business when you built it.
But for software companies? I mean, you need a stable internet connection, good mobile phone coverage (tricky in Germany sometimes), rule of law, efficient bureaucracy (e.g. when hiring people), good banks which don't lose your money, electricity, etc. - none of these "infrastructure factors" feel as big as the ones for a hardware business.
On the contrary, for a software business, one could argue that Germany is actively hostile to you: Founding a company takes weeks / months and is expensive (notary), most processes are still paper-based, hiring people (especially internationally) is a huge pain, mobile internet is spotty, residential internet has outages. Charging customer credit cards via Stripe exposes you to a rabbit hole of VAT bureaucracy - all companies I've met so far rolled their own, broken software stack to somehow match up their Stripe + VAT charges with their internal bookkeeping software (e.g. Datev). A huge mess. It doesn't end there.
But I may be wrong.
Someone growing up in a society is strongly an outcome of that society.
This is a great point.
The flip side is that if a government fails to deliver those, they have failed their side of the social contract. Then ideally, the citizens they've failed should be able to opt out..
What if that company is a remote company which hires people all over the world, and none of those people benefited from the {education|peace|law enforcement|trust} in Germany?
I do agree with you, in principle, that a company is somewhat coupled to the country it was founded in. The exact nature of that coupling, however, is not that simple, I would say.
Reality is complicated, I suppose :)
Without the contributions of millions of others on a daily basis you’d have nothing.
i’d love to see a comprehensive study on how much corporate tax avoidance costs a country vs food stamps so we can get an accurate view on who leeches/gains more. my suspicion is corporate wage theft/tax avoidance/evasion/subsidies are significantly higher, particularly if we add in executives and major stock holders.
Canada also has an unreasonable exit tax. Canadian founders are taxed on 50% of the FMV of their shares on departure. So if you own half of a company that is worth $50m, your taxable income for the year of departure is increased by $12.5m.
The current implementation which essentially simulates a "virtual" sale of your business once you leave the country is pretty terrible, as most normal humans don't have that sort of cash on hand because, well, they actually didn't sell their business at that point in time.
Interesting pointer on Canada - thanks!
Exit taxes are generally applied as if the taxpayer sold all capital assets on the day of leaving.
At least in the US taxation regime (I'm unfamiliar with others), family cars don't qualify for a capital loss, and rarely appreciate. Clothing would be similar.
But it doesn't seem unreasonable that a country should want to be paid tax on unrealized gains as you're leaving. It would probably be more fair to wait until the gains were realized and then apportion the gains among the countries of residence, but if you're leaving, it's going to be hard to compel your participation later, so it makes more sense to do it as you're leaving.
Remember that in Germany you don't pay for University degrees. High education isn't just for a wealthy minority.
Excuse me, why I need state permission for building business?
Also, the "you can't leave because you owe society" argument, while not necessarily wrong, is strongly associated with the abuses of Communism.
This does not match the results from 5 minutes of googling, not for individuals at least. What is being taxed is the shares you're holding, as if you're selling them, which results in a tax on their increase in value compared to when you've bought them. [disclaimer: I just did a quick search on this, I'm not a tax consultant or lawyer.]
I haven't looked for the regulations on companies moving their headquarters away from Germany. It's possible those rules are the above, and the author confused them with the rules for individuals.
Either way, if the author believes they're right, they should dig up some citations. There are none in that article. Is this based on advice they've received? Did they do their own research? Are they a tax consultant or lawyer? 13.75 is a very "spottable" number, how about a link to the law that has that number?
- First off, your assumption is wrong that only the increase in value gets taxed. No, the entire value of your holding gets taxed, see § 6 Abs. 1 Satz 1 Außensteuergesetz (AStG) [1].
- The factor 13.75 originates from the calculation method called "vereinfachtes Ertragswertverfahren" (~ simplified earnings-based method), which itself is defined in Bewertungsgesetz (BewG), § 11 Wertpapiere und Anteile [2]
- Factor 13.75 is defined in Bewertungsgesetz (BewG), § 203 Kapitalisierungsfaktor [3]
- The tax rate of 42% is the marginal tax rate in Germany (at least below €250k income, beyond that it's 45%) - so the assumption here is that, in the year in which you leave Germany, you've already had some salary income (say, €90k) which bumps you into the marginal tax rate for any additional income on top of that.
[1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/astg/__6.html
[2] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bewg/__11.html
[3] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bewg/__203.html
You're misreading that law. It says moving away is equivalent to selling shares and that §17 EStG is applicable. Which in turn says:
(2) Veräußerungsgewinn im Sinne des Absatzes 1 ist der Betrag, um den der Veräußerungspreis nach Abzug der Veräußerungskosten die Anschaffungskosten übersteigt.
> - The factor 13.75 originates from the calculation method called "vereinfachtes Ertragswertverfahren" (~ simplified earnings-based method), which itself is defined in Bewertungsgesetz (BewG), § 11 Wertpapiere und Anteile [2]
§199 BewG says "…kann das vereinfachte Ertragswertverfahren (§ 200) angewendet werden, wenn dieses nicht zu offensichtlich unzutreffenden Ergebnissen führt."
Key phrase there being "kann". It doesn't have to. You can probably sue against it getting applied, if they're really insisting on it. And note §11 BewG says:
"…so ist er unter Berücksichtigung der Ertragsaussichten der Kapitalgesellschaft oder einer anderen anerkannten, auch im gewöhnlichen Geschäftsverkehr für nichtsteuerliche Zwecke üblichen Methode zu ermitteln; dabei ist die Methode anzuwenden, die ein Erwerber der Bemessung des Kaufpreises zu Grunde legen würde…"
So, finding a reasonable method that a buyer would use to determine the values of the shares is explicitly pointed out.
1. Yeah, valid - I was assuming the default case of "you founded your company in Germany and are moving away at some stage". In that case, you could deduct the initial share capital (often €25k) from the valuation, as that was your "purchase price". In most cases, that doesn't lead to a significantly different outcome.
But yeah, if you actually bought shares of an existing company at a certain (higher) price, than of course the "taxable delta" might change your calculation.
In that respect, I was wrong as I assumed everything would get taxed. This is only roughly the case when you founded the company yourself in Germany, as mentioned above. Thanks for the correction!
2. True! As mentioned in my post, you can also pay someone to assess the value of your shares, which would most likely result in a valuation lower than 13.75x. You will have the additional costs of getting that assessment though, and you'll have to convince the authorities that your assessment is closer to the truth than the default valuation which is based on 13.75x.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wegzugsbesteuerung
Essentially, it assumes you sell your assets at market value and taxes the difference to your expenses for it.
I wrote up another post with more generic notes on the exit tax [1] which might be a better post to compare to your link.
The minor benefit of my post is that I don't have an incentive to sell you expensive tax advice, chuckle..
[1] https://eidel.io/notes-and-hacks-on-germanys-exit-tax/
It seems that capitalists should never be encouraged. They lack any sense of morality.
In the US we do have issues with businesses, but it's not like the Bosch, Thyssen, or Tschira family are any less unethical.
The level of hierarchy I've noticed in German firms and founders is insane to say the least. I'd love to do some quantitative research into this, but I haven't been in academia or policy for years now.
- A printer (the most important equipment of any German startup founder)
- Envelopes for letters
- A stamp with your company name (some companies and agencies you deal with require you to stamp things, because a stamp obviously proves, beyond any doubt, that you are acting on behalf of your company, because obviously no one would be able to create a similar stamp with your company's name on it, right)
- A virtual office address at a coworking space (because you're receiving physical mail, and also there are weird tax reasons not to register your company at your home address)
- A mail-scanning service (because you don't want to walk to the coworking space every few days to pick up your physical mail)
- A mail-forwarding service (so that the mail gets forwarded from your virtual office address, which now has exactly no purpose at all, to your mail-scanning service)
That being said, it's probably overly simplistic to blame political parties for this - there's a lot of e.g. county/state-level bureaucracy in Germany which gets in the way of making any sort of constructive changes. It's a bit like blaming the CEO of a bloated company for not making it "agile" in a short period of time. Sure, leadership is important, but the reality is, it's.. complicated.
For more information, you can check whether the ink complies with DIN ISO 12757-2 and/or read up on "Dokumentenechtheit" [1]
[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokumentenechtheit (It hasn't been translated to other languages yet.)