I maintain a library to interface zig with elixir and the breaking changes have not been a big deal. As a part of the library I have maintain a zig parser (the official parser in the langref is not up to date) and I scan the entire zig codebase against my parser to make sure it doesn't trip up on anything. Also I can't use zig fmt to keep up because some of the code is templated and embedded in Elixir. The last two semver minor updates, the net total amount of changes I have had to do to keep up with the language took me maybe an hour? Also subjectively, I feel like the breaking changes that affect me have been fewer and easier to deal with since the early days. The bulk of the delay in updating the library was chipping away at things that i had put off since the last update (also i don't use the library in $DAYJOB since I "quit tech", though I do vibecode solutions for myself).
Point being, I feel like a lot of the gripes about zig changing here and there are really by folks who aren't really daily users, just people who see a !!breaking change!! announcement and pile on.
Though, I do sympathize with newcomers because the memory of the internet is pinned to various older versions with lots of demo code that 'just doesn't work' and of course that means LLMs too, in the long run. Hopefully zig doesn't get stuck past the global knowledge/popularity LLM-cycle cutoff. I don't think it will.
thrwyexecbrain · 3h ago
Just to start some discussion about the actual API and not the breaking change aspect of it:
I find the `Reader.stream(writer, limit)` and `Reader.streamRemaining(writer)` functions to be especially elegant to build a push-based data transformation pipeline (like GREP or compression/encryption). You just implement a Writer interface for your state machine and dump the output into another Writer and you don't have to care about how the bytes come and how they leave (be it a socket or shared memory or file) -- you just set the buffer sizes (which you can even set to zero as I gather!)
`Writer.sendFile()` is also nice, I don't know of any other stream abstraction that provides this primitive in the "generic interface", you usually have to downcast the stream to a "FileStream" and work on the file descriptor directly.
AndyKelley · 3h ago
re: sendfile in the interface - that's important because while downcasting the stream to "FileStream" would work if your pipeline looks like A -> B, it falls apart the moment you introduce an item in the middle (A -> B -> C). Meanwhile I have a demo of File -> tar -> HTTP (Transfer-Encoding: chunked) -> Socket and the direct fd-to-fd copies make it all the way through the chain!
mtlynch · 6h ago
As a hobby Zig developer, it's a bummer to see a breaking change in something so fundamental, but I get that's what I accept when building on a pre-1.0 language.
I hope that the Zig team invests more into helping with migration than they have in the past. My experience for past breaking changes is that downstream developers got left in the cold without clear guidance about how to fix breaking changes.
In Zig 0.12.0 (released just a year ago), there were a lot of breaking changes to the build system that the release notes didn't explain at all. To see what I mean, look at the changes I had to make[0] in a Zig 0.11.0 project and then search the release notes[1] for guidance on those changes. Most of the breaking changes aren't even mentioned, much less explained how to migrate from 0.11.0 to 0.12.0.
>Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make.
I'm definitely looking at the example set by hare with interest[0]. Also unironically love Shrek. I once hosted a viewing party of Shrek Retold[1] in my tiny NYC apartment :D
An automated tool would be great, but even good documentation with examples of before vs. after code snippets would go a long way.
8n4vidtmkvmk · 39m ago
It might be nice if language and library authors at least included a really good prompt detailing all the required changes so an LLM can take a first pass at fixing everything.
Even better if it can be done with a deterministic codemod, but a prompt is easier to write.
thayne · 2h ago
This is why I'm surprised when production projects, like bun, choose to use zig. I don't think the language itself is a bad choice (although I do disagree qith some of the design decisions), but having to make substantial changes when there are breaking changes like this because the language is pre-1.0 every so often in a large code base isn't something I would want to deal with.
beders · 1h ago
Zig just caught up with the practice that runs rampant in JavaScript land ;)
throwawaymaths · 2h ago
maybe... it's got some really good things going for it that are worth the pain.
norir · 56m ago
It deeply bothers me that the zig team/community has been aggressively marketing this language while constantly making breaking changes without even providing migration tools. This is user hostile behavior. They are creating extra work for downstream users with minimal gain.
Let's take this change as an example. If I already wrote a program that used the old apis and meets my needs what is the benefit of this change for me? Now I have to go back and rewrite my old code and I might introduce a new bug in the migration, especially if I don't understand all of the nuance in the difference between the apis. Even if I agree that the new apis are better, the cost of migration might outweigh the benefits, but I am forced in to the migration or forking the compiler, which both might be bad choices for me.
It is not necessary to do this. They could, for example, have versioned stdlib and then maybe all I need to is pin my stdlib version. One complaint is that having multiple standard libraries causes more maintenance burden, but why should that be the primary concern? What is the cost to the maintainer vs. the cost to the community. If you make 1000 users spend an hour migrating their code, are you really going to save 1000 hours of maintenance burden?
Moreover, if the zig team wrote code with the assumption that they can never get rid of it, perhaps they wouldn't make so many design mistakes that all of these breaking changes become inevitable.
If I wrote a program in zig, I would feel obligated to also learn how to bootstrap it so that I wouldn't be subject to unwanted breaking changes. But then I see that bootstrapping involves some bizarre wasm hack instead of the tried and true bootstrapping approach of writing a simple first pass compiler in c (or some other language) and I am reminded again why I would never choose this language.
heldrida · 9m ago
I can't see how the team or community are aggressively marketing Zig. There's a lot of buzz around some projects written in Zig, such as Bun and TigerBeetle. Andrew Kelly isn't even on Twitter or X. It almost sounds like you're talking about the 14-year-old indie devs sharing their 1M MRR apps? It's a non-profit, created by real people working very hard to make something valuable for the rest of us... People who could easily be driving Lambos with their talent.
When someone creates something others want, it'll inevitably become popular.
If your app is stable, could you not keep using the version you're happy with?
apgwoz · 41m ago
> I see that bootstrapping involves some bizarre wasm hack instead of the tried and true bootstrapping approach of writing a simple first pass compiler in c (or some other language) and I am reminded again why I would never choose this language.
The hack allows the compiler to be maintained in Zig, compiled to WASM (a supported backend), and then bootstrapped with only a wasm interpreter… and one is provided in a single C file (I believe… but haven’t looked in a while).
This is a much nicer situation than most other bootstrap scenarios. All the SMLs, for instance, require you to have a whole other SML! MoscowML bootstraps with an included Caml interpreter… but it’s not sufficient to compile MLton.
ok_dad · 48m ago
Zig is in development, devs who use it today must know it may break before 1.0. Your rant is unwarranted.
LexiMax · 42m ago
We're not talking about Python 2 here. This is a pre-1.0 language. As an occasional dabbler in the language, I implicitly understand this to mean that there will be breaking changes, and I have made peace with that.
Looking over the changes, they seem wise and well justified. Fixing my old codebases will be annoying, but I don't mind the annoyance if a better language comes out the other end.
flohofwoe · 42m ago
> zig team/community has been aggressively marketing this language
...I think the only thing that's aggressively marketed is that the Zig team isn't afraid of big and controversial breaking changes ;) If you can't handle that, then Zig currently isn't right for you, it's as simple as that.
> They could, for example, have versioned stdlib and then maybe all I need to is pin my stdlib version.
That really only makes sense for after 1.0, and even after that only for stdlib APIs that are out of the experimental phase.
But post 1.x some sort of migration support for breaking changes would indeed be much more useful than trying to prevent breaking changes at all cost.
> and I am reminded again why I would never choose this language.
...then why even write such a lengthy comment? Just ignore Zig and move on... it's not like there's plenty of other languages which might better fit your taste.
throwawaymaths · 40m ago
anyways downloads of older versions are generally available!! like this whole bootstrapping freakout is weird. and anyways its funny to say the wasm build thing is a hack versus building with c. have you seen cmake? that whole thing is a hack.
throwawaymaths · 48m ago
> with minimal gain
are you sure?
kristoff_it · 9h ago
For context this was presented, alongside other things, in the Zig Roadmap 2026 stream.
One issue I have with the old reader/writer pattern is that it is not easy to store them in a struct. Reader and writer are passed into a function as 'anytype' which implements any of the read() or write() functions. Often time in a struct's init() function, I want to take in a reader/writer and store it for later use. It's close to impossible since I don't know what type of the field of the struct to store them.
Does the new change make it easier to store reader/writer in a struct?
something that I don't understand about the actual API:
I maintain the zigler library, and one thing that was useful about the old async "colored-but-not-really" functions was that they implicitly tolerate having internal suspend points (detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDfjdGva3NE&t=1819s) -- I'm not sure if having IO be a passed parameter will still let me do that? Can users build their own functions with yield points? And will you be able to jump out of the frame of a function and give control back to the executor, to let it resume later?
AndyKelley · 2h ago
Hi Isaac, good to (virtually) see you.
As you're aware, that feature of the language ("stackless coroutines", "generators", "rewriting function logic into a state machine") was regressed. At first, this new IO interface won't have that capability.
However, as a followup issue, I'd like to reintroduce it, potentially in more low-level manner, for use inside IO implementations. Combined with restricted function pointers, this will allow functions that can suspend to pass through runtime-known function pointer boundaries - something that was terribly clunky before to the point that it compromised the entire design. This means that, again, the same IO interface usage code will be able to be reused, including when the implementation uses suspend points, and the automatic calling convention rewriting will be able to propagate through the interface into the usage code.
I'll add that I'm still keen on the previous suspend/resume keywords and semantics as a solution to this issue.
dnautics · 1h ago
thanks! I would have asked on stream but I'm in a bit of a different timezone than usual so my ability to track livestream times competently has regressed.
As an aside, do you think in the near future there will be a "guide to building a compiler backend" either in-project or by the community?
barelysapient · 2h ago
A big change like this makes me hopeful Zig may revisit and improve other design choices in the future.
bbkane · 1h ago
Could you elaborate on the choices you'd like revisited?
90s_dev · 45m ago
Unused variables stops all further compilation, so that even future errors can't be seen until the variable is used.
90s_dev · 3h ago
I don't mind breaking changes if I can fix them within a day.
What bothers me with C/C++ is how difficult it is to cross compile a simple Windows + SDL app from inside WSL without MSVC installed.
I've spent weeks on this.
If Zig saves me from that nightmare, and still lets me use C++ libraries, I will gladly switch over to it.
PaulDavisThe1st · 2h ago
None of which has anything to do with C++ the language.
flohofwoe · 1h ago
That doesn't matter much when it's specifically the C/C++ compiler vendors who don't care about fixing the cross-compilation problem. It would be trivial for C/C++ compiler vendors to make cross-compilation as simple as with the Zig toolchain, but they don't care about the topic and that's why it doesn't happen.
Fast forward a few decades to today and the best solution to cross-compile C/C++ projects is the Zig toolchain (and isn't that kinda weird? A "foreign" toolchain coming along fixing one of the biggest problems in the C/C++ ecosystem just like that as a "side quest"?)
PaulDavisThe1st · 2m ago
The problem with cross-compiling for Windows or macOS as targets are the runtimes (sometimes required during compilation or building), not the cross-compiling. This also has nothing to do with C/C++ as a language.
We build for Linux and Windows on Linux using gcc/mingw and don't have any fundamental issues doing so. On macOS we need the headers & libraries for macOS, we have to do those inside a VM.
I'd be extremely surprised if you can cross-compile Zig for macOS on a non-macOS platform, unless it doesn't use any macOS native frameworks at any level.
francasso · 1h ago
In theory yes, in practice that's irrelevant unless you can show someone has done it, and nobody has in 40+ years as far as I know
PaulDavisThe1st · 7m ago
WSL hasn't existed for that long. So I am not sure what "it" is ...
flohofwoe · 3h ago
You'll have to write C API wrappers around your C++ libraries to access them from Zig, but other then that I can cross-compile my mixed C/C++/Zig projects using Windows APIs like DXGI/D3D/WASAPI with `zig build -Dtarget=x86_64-windows` from a Mac with the vanilla Zig toolchain.
...you don't even need to port anything in your C/C++ project to Zig, just integrate `zig cc` as C/C++ compiler into your existing build system, or port your build system files to build.zig.
90s_dev · 3h ago
That works out great, since all the libraries I need are C or have C wrappers anyway. I might actually do this, thanks.
forrestthewoods · 2h ago
Wait what. Shouldn’t zig crosscompile C++ just fine?
flohofwoe · 2h ago
Yes, the C++ code compiles just fine, but to call into C++ APIs from Zig you'll need a C API wrapper (and the same is true for ObjC APIs). Not an issue of course for pure C++ projects when the Zig toolchain is just used for cross-compiling.
Aissen · 9h ago
This is why it's good to have automated tooling that can do semantic changes on your language and standard library use. Go has `go fix` even if it was only used in pre-1.0 days AFAIK. It is never lost because this type of tooling can be used as the foundation for linters, refactoring tools, etc. Is there such a solution in Zig?
flohofwoe · 7h ago
zig fmt has some auto-fixes for upgrading source code to new Zig versions, AFAIK it's only for language changes, not stdlib changes though.
Aissen · 6h ago
Nice, I wonder if adapting it for this change would make sense?
throwawaymaths · 6h ago
its a really huge change
blippage · 10h ago
I tried Zig some time ago to use with microcontrollers. It has a generator for the pins, which was nice. But subsequent versions broke as Zig changed syntax. So I started going down the rabbit-hole (it needed a newer version of llvm, for example) until I eventually decided that the game wasn't worth the candle.
The fact that another breaking change has been introduced confirms my suspicion that Zig is not ready for primetime.
My conclusion is to just use C. For low-level programming it's very hard to improve on C. There is not likely to be any killer feature that some other contender will allow you to write the same code in a fifth of the lines nor make the code any more understandable.
Yes, C may have its quirky behaviour that people gnash their teeth over. But ultimately, it's not that bad.
If you want to use a better C, use C++. C++ is perfectly fine for using with microcontrollers, for example. Now get back to work!
flohofwoe · 7h ago
Well, that's why Zig is 0.x and not 1.x. I'm fine even with large scale breakage if the direction is right (and looking at the mess that C++ has become for the sake of backward compatibility, IMHO breaking changes are also the better option after 1.x, as long as there's features to help manage the required changes).
Also, "Zig the language" is currently better designed than "Zig the stdlib", so breaking changes will actually be needed in the future at least in the stdlib because getting it right the first time is very unlikely, and I don't like to be stuck with bad initial design decisions which then can't be fixed for decades (again, as a perfect example of how not to do it, see C++)
mamcx · 3h ago
I can relate, because I have so much things in years that broke left and right, but at the same time (except if you are talking about pre/alphas) I think is unhealthy to be vary of breaking changes.
A language, in special, should be able to do it. Extreme compatibility is the way to make the mistake that is C.
A breaking change that fix something is a investing that extend infinity to the feature.
Fear to do it, like in C, is how you accumulate errors, mistakes, millions of dollars wasted, because is also compound debt.
P.D: I think langs should be fast to break pre 1.0, and maybe have room to do it each 5/7 years. Despite the debacle of Python (that is in fact more reflective of python than of breaking), there should be possible to make a relatively painless sunsetting with good caring
flohofwoe · 1h ago
The problem I have with python2 vs python3 wasn't breaking backward compatibility, but that their "solution" for UNICODE strings is such a weird mess (treating string- and byte-streams as something completely separate instead of treating strings as UTF-8 encoded views on byte streams) The only string encoding that matters today is UTF-8, all others are relics from the early 90s and the sooner we get rid of those the better - e.g. Python caused a whole lot of pain for a solution that would have been useful 30 years ago, but not today.
steeve · 8h ago
It absolutely is and we (ZML) are using it with great success. That said, Andrew said he would absolutely would break compat if it meant things go in the right direction.
Yes, it can be painful sometimes, yes I do not always agree with his choices, but it has never been a blocker nor a significant time sink.
And in the end, things do improve significantly.
In this case, I think the new IO stuff is incredible.
xeonmc · 8h ago
It also helps job prospects of Zig programmers within organizations that have already adopted Zig -- more breakage, more job security.
ulbu · 7h ago
advances the purposes of cynics as well, so big bonus.
eddythompson80 · 9h ago
> The fact that another breaking change has been introduced confirms my suspicion that Zig is not ready for primetime.
Huh, it was the 0.14 version number for me.
kzrdude · 5h ago
Pandas (different world: Python) arguably peaked in hype (if not popularity) before reaching 1.0
dtech · 9h ago
0.x doesn't say as much as it used to 20 years ago, many fine projects keep it for way too long.
eddythompson80 · 9h ago
Zig has a pretty well documented 1.0 goals. It was the first thing I heard about zig from Andrew about. https://youtu.be/5eL_LcxwwHg
arp242 · 8h ago
Yes, that was the point. To understand what that "0.14" means, we need to know those "well documented 1.0 goals" and some hour long YouTube video. That is, merely the "0.14 version number" without context is not enough, like your previous comment said.
eddythompson80 · 8h ago
You look at the version, the milestones https://github.com/ziglang/zig/milestones, and it makes sense. The YouTube video is just more proof. Picking up a 0.14 software without looking the most basic thing about it like “oh, what kind of 0.14 is this” then complaining that “it’s not ready for prime time” is odd behavior
sgt · 10h ago
But at some point it'll be ready. Might it be worth it then?
vlovich123 · 9h ago
I haven’t done embedded stuff in Rust, but the nostd crates and automatically generated libraries from manufacturer SVDs seemed neat. The ability to trivially pull in already written functionality would also seem fantastic.
overflyer · 10h ago
Dude Zig is clearly pre 1.0. It can introduce breaking changes with every commit and rightfully so. I mean d'oh it's Not ready for Prime Time.
hencoappel · 9h ago
Zig uses ZeroVer so don't expect it to ever hit 1.0.
Is that versioning site supposed to be some kind of joke? I can't really figure out if they are joking or serious - the tone comes off as joking, but it could be read as serious too.
dtech · 9h ago
I guess you're being Poe's lawwed but it's definitely a joke
I also have to disagree with C++ for micro controllers / bare metal programming.
You don't get the standard library so you're missing out on most features that make C++ worthwhile over C.
Sure you get namespaces, constexpr and templates but without any standard types you'll have to build a lot on your own just to start out with.
I recently switched to Rust for a bare metal project and while its not perfect I get a lot more "high level" features than with C or C++.
pjmlp · 5h ago
In deployments where C and C++ are the only two options available, and management is not willing to get another one, C++ still has lots of improvements over, as "Typescript for C".
Building our own types was a rite of passage for C++ programming back in the early 1990's, and university curriculums for C++ as well.
TuxSH · 9h ago
> You don't get the standard library
Why is that? Sure, allocating containers and other exception-throwing facilities are a no-go but the stdlib still contains a lot of useful and usable stuff like <type_traits>, <utility>, <source_location>, <bit>, <optional>, <coroutine> [1] and so on
[1] yes they allocate, but operator new can easily be overridden for the promise class and can get the coro function arguments forwarded to it. For example if coro function takes a "Foo &foo", you can have operator new return foo.m_Buffer (and -fno-exceptions gets rid of unwinding code gen)
tialaramex · 7h ago
In the C and C++ languages there's a thing called a "freestanding" implementation. This is roughly analogous to Rust's nostd.
In C the freestanding environment doesn't provide any concrete features, you don't get any functions at all, you can get a bunch of useful constants such as the value of Pi or the maximum value that will fit in an unsigned integer, some typedefs, that's about it. Concrete stuff from the "C standard library" is not available, for example it does not provide any sort of in-place sort algorithm, or a way to compare whether two things are the same (if they fit in a primitive you can use the equality operator)
In C++ there are concrete functions provided by the language standard in freestanding mode. These, together with definitions for types etc. form the freestanding version of the "standard library" in C++. There's a long period where this was basically untended, it wasn't removed but it also wasn't tracking new features or feedback. In the last few C++ versions that improved, but even if you have a new enough compiler and it's fully compliant (most are not) there's still not always a rhyme or reason to what is or is not available.
In Rust it's really easy. You always have core, if you've got a heap allocator of some sort you can have alloc, and if there's a whole operating system it provides std.
In most cases a whole type lives entirely in one of those modules, Duration for example lives in core. Maybe your $5 device has no idea which year this is, let alone day but it does definitely know 60 seconds is a minute.
But in some cases modules extend a type. For example arrays exist in core of course - an array of sixty Doodads where Doodads claim to be Totally Ordered, can just be unstably sorted, that works. But, what if we want a stable sort, so that if two equal Doodads were arranged A, B they are not reversed B, A ? Well Rust's core module doesn't provide a stable sort, the stable sort provided uses an allocation and so the entire function you need just doesn't exist unless you've got allocators.
TuxSH · 6h ago
I know how freestanding works, and I agree that Rust's "nostd" is much more thought out than C/C++'s freestanding, however
> This is roughly analogous to Rust's nostd.
"freestanding" is actually worse that this. It means that the compiler can't even assume things about memcpy and optimize it out (as on gcc it implies -fno-builtin), which pessimizes a lot of idiomatic code (eg. serialization).
The "-nostdlib" option is usually what one wants in many cases (don't link against libc but still provide standard C and C++ headers), such as when compiling privileged code with -mgeneral-regs only and such. This way you can benefit from <chrono>, etc.
If you are writing userland code you should be using a toolchain for this, instead of relying of freestanding/nostdlib which are geared towards kernel code and towards working around defective toolchains.
gpderetta · 6h ago
What the standard says about freestanding is all well and good. But what do actual embedded c++ compilers actually ship?
Also embedded covers a very wide range of computers.
TuxSH · 5h ago
If you are targeting armv4t/armv5/armv6k+vfp (or armv7 but not optimized for it) for Aarch32, or Armv8.0-A and are fine with newlib, then devkitARM and devkitA64, respectively, get the job done and ship GCC 15.1.
There is also devkitPPC, shipping with the same toolchain (and which additionally has some Obj-C support iirc).
Custom patches to newlib and consorts (https://github.com/devkitPro/buildscripts/) introduce hooks and WEAK functions that allow to implement standard library functions on almost any platform, on a platform library basis or even on a per-program basis (with some restrictions on lock sizes).
gpderetta · 5h ago
Indeed. My point was that freestanding is a strawman, with likely little relevance for embedded developers.
juliangmp · 9h ago
That's the most frustrating part, a lot of the std library would work on a bare metal system (and would be rather useful), but getting those parts into your project and avoiding the ones that will give you compiler errors in form of esoteric poems is a nightmare.
Vendors at this point seem to give their implementation of some of the std library components, but the one's I've seen were lacking in terms of features.
DanielHB · 8h ago
This is a problem with WASM as well, use a certain innocent function from the C++ std lib and suddenly your WASM binary grows by 10mb.
vlovich123 · 9h ago
Doesn’t Rust nostd give up a comparable part that C++ would give up? It’s typically all the memory allocations that inhibit the use of data structures.
juliangmp · 8h ago
Yeah you don't get its std library, but Rust makes a distinction between core and std, and core is available.
Doesn't sound like a lot but you get your standard types like Result and Option, you get slices since they're part of the language or if you need allocation you can define the global allocator in core::alloc.
This distinction makes it really comfortable to use.
The point of the language stability is spon on, but it's actually very easy to improve on C, not in terms of performance or readability, but rather safety and the ability to encode more constraints in a compact form than C would ever allow. Sometimes it's not about less lines, but the same amount of lines that encode a lot more stuff than these lines in C.
scrubs · 6h ago
Well, that's a sentiment I don't quite agree with. It willfully ignores industry experience with c/c++ whence zig, rust, D, and others.
If your micro controller is say <5000 lines maybe ... but an OS or a mellanox verbs or dpdk API won't fall so easily to such surface level thinking.
Maybe zig could help itself by providing through llvm what Google sometimes does for large api breaking changes ... have llvm tool that searches out old api invocation update to new so upgrading is faster, more operationally effective.
Google's tools do this and give the dev a source code pr candidate. That's how they can change zillions of calls with confidence.
drtgh · 10h ago
By the title I thought that they were going to implement this,
Is Writergate a technical term or a reference to Watergate?
n42 · 12h ago
in a sense it's a reference to Allocgate (a previous big breaking change to allocators in Zig), which was itself a reference to Watergate
kzrdude · 8h ago
by now it's a well worn/used trope to make -gate names for any scandal. But the distance in time (and culture) to the original Watergate scandal is growing, so it seems less impactful now.
GolDDranks · 9h ago
I have written very little Zig and a lot of Rust, but I love both languages. However, Zig having breaking changes has made me wary of not starting anything serious it with – yet. I'm still happy that these changes happen, because I'm willing to wait for a stable version. Meanwhile, I enjoy myself some Rust, and probably continue doing so.
brabel · 11h ago
I like Zig but it seems to just keep redesigning itself, while other languages like Odin “shipped” long ago and don’t seem to need to look back. Is Zig suffering from perfectionism syndrome where things are never good enough??
audunw · 11h ago
This is a standard library change, not a syntax change
I think the main big thing that’s left for 1.0 is to resurrect async/await.. and that’s a huge thing because arguably very few if any language has gotten that truly right.
As the PR description mentions: “This is part of a series of changes leading up to "I/O as an Interface" and Async/Await Resurrection.”
So this work is partially related to getting async/await right. And getting IO right is a very important part of that.
I think it’s a good idea for Zig to try to avoid a Python 3 situation after they reach 1.0. The project seems fairly focused to me, but they’re trying to solve some difficult problems. And they spend more time working on the compiler and compiler infrastructure than other languages, which is also good. Working on their own backend is actually critical for the language itself, because part of what’s holding Zig back from doing async right is limitations and flaws in LLVM
travisgriggs · 10h ago
> I think the main big thing that’s left for 1.0 is to resurrect async/await.. and that’s a huge thing because arguably very few if any language has gotten that truly right.
Interesting. I like Zig. I dabble periodically. I’m hoping that maturity and our next generation ag tech device in a few years might intersect.
Throwing another colored function debacle in a language, replete with yet another round of the familiar but defined slightly differently keywords, would be a big turn off for me. I don’t even know if Grand Central Dispatch counts, but it—and of course Elixir/Erlang—are the only two “on beyond closures/callbacks” asynch system I’ve found worked well.
messe · 9h ago
As far as I know, Zig still wants their implementation of async to avoid function colouring.
stratts · 7h ago
My understanding is that the current plans are to implement async in userspace, as part of a broader IO overhaul.
This would involve removing async/await as keywords from the language.
throwawaymaths · 6h ago
part of function coloring is "not being trivially resolvable". in this case the function coloring boundary is trivially resolvable.
easy peasy. you've resolved the coloring boundary.
now, if you want to be a library writer, yeah, you have to color your functions if you don't want to be an asshole, but for the 95% use case this is not function coloring.
dosshell · 10h ago
>> because part of what’s holding Zig back from doing async right is limitations and flaws in LLVM
this was interesting! Do you have a link or something to be able to read about it?
audunw · 10h ago
Much of the discussion is buried in the various GitHub issues related to async. I found something of a summary in this Reddit comment
iirc the llvm async operation does heap allocations?
thelastbender12 · 10h ago
Sorry, I think this comparison is just unfair. Odin might have "shipped" but are there are any projects with significant usage built on it? I can count at least 3 with Zig - Ghostty, Tigerbeetle, and Bun.
Programming languages which do get used are always in flux, for good reason - python is still undergoing major changes (free-threading, immutability, and others), and I'm grateful for it.
LukaD · 10h ago
All the JangaFX products (such as EmberGen) are written in Odin.
thelastbender12 · 10h ago
Thank you, my bad - I wasn't aware.
I still think what drives languages to continuously make changes is the focus on developer UX, or at least the intent to make it better. So, PLs with more developers will always keep evolving.
dismalaf · 10h ago
> Odin might have "shipped" but are there are any projects with significant usage built on it?
JangaFX stuff is written in Odin and has some pretty big users.
I'd say it is taking some serious design decision for like the 30 years to come, so I am happy it breaks things now.
I wish it moved to snake_case for functions, this is a cosmetic detail but it drives me crazy.
pjmlp · 11h ago
If I look to how I was programming in 1986, and how I am programming now, it is too much hope to have such a design goal, especially since most likely there is little Zig has to add to quantum and AI based systems.
lionkor · 10h ago
This feels out of touch with the actual industry today.
pjmlp · 10h ago
Out of touch is assuming that a programming language with zero touch points with AI tooling is going to be relevant in a AI driven industry.
lionkor · 7h ago
What is "AI tooling"?
pjmlp · 6h ago
Ask Chat GPT, Claude or Gemini.
cornstalks · 11h ago
I’m glad they are taking their time. They’ve made solid improvements and I don’t think get the sense that they’re paralyzed with perfectionism.
They’re not rushing, that’s for sure. But I’ve never felt worried about 1.0 never happening in an unending pursuit of unrealistic impossible ideals.
vendiddy · 10h ago
They've been pretty explicit about their goals in not settling for a local optimum in the language and taking their time.
It seems like folks expect stability pre 1.0.
silisili · 11h ago
That's kinda my experience with watching Zig. It went from 'look how simple this is' to 'look at this new feature syntax' long ago.
People used to compare it as simpler than Rust. I don't agree that it's simple anymore at all.
None of this is meant to be badmouthing or insulting. I'm a polyglot but love simple languages and syntaxes, so I tend to overly notice such things.
Laremere · 10h ago
The computer is a machine, and modern ones are complicated. When I am programming, I want to precisely control that machine. For me, simplicity is measured in how complicated it is to get the machine to do what I want it to do. So, eg, having several different operators for adding two integers sounds complicated. However there is simplicity in not having to reach far to actually get the correct behavior, and there is some simplicity in the process of being forced to make that choice as it irons about what behavior you actually want.
silisili · 10h ago
I think that's long been the argument of simplicity. 'Simple to remember' vs 'simple to perform.'
I tend to fall into the former camp. Something like BF would be the ultimate simple language, even if not particularly useful.
lewdwig · 9h ago
Structured concurrency is a notoriously hard problem. This is part of Zig’s 4th attempt to get it right.
throwawaymaths · 5h ago
the only two new feature syntaxes in about six releases have been multiple iterations in for loops and continue in switches? maybe reified tuple types too (not just implicit) and destructuring tuples.
a few things have been removed, too. and async/suspend/nosuspend/await, usingnamesplace are headed for the woodchipper.
raincole · 7h ago
Rust will be (already became?) as complex as C++, if not more. Zig will be as complex as early rust. It's like a force of nature.
tialaramex · 3h ago
How do you figure Rust is "as complex as C++" ?
pjmlp · 11h ago
Looks like it, while at the same time still lacks any killer application that would make learning Zig a requirement, regardless of one's opinion on the language, like it already happened with many others now in mainstream.
So where is Zig's OS, browser, docker, engine, security, whatever XYZ, that would make having Zig on the toolbox a requirement?
I don't see Bun nor Tiger Beetle being that app.
dgb23 · 8h ago
Not a killer app, but I think one thing you might consider is zig build.
pjmlp · 6h ago
Not a seller to me.
lionkor · 10h ago
The killer application case is slow adoption inside ancient C and C++ codebases. That's the angle.
pjmlp · 10h ago
It hardly brings anything new to the table in such cases, given its approach to safety.
Most of it you can already get in C and C++, by using the tools that have in the market for the last 30 years.
lionkor · 7h ago
It brings a lot of nice features, the potential for a healthier ecosystem, a unified build system, explicit allocators, explicit casts, and so on.
pjmlp · 6h ago
Ecosystems sell languages, not the other way around.
lewdwig · 9h ago
And yet C/C++ developers have mostly spent the last 30 years not using those tools which is why safer successors to C and C++ appeared.
pjmlp · 6h ago
Zig is as safe as Modula-2 or Object Pascal, not the turning point of something like Swift or Rust.
detaro · 9h ago
I think pjmlps point is that Zig is not adding enough to be one of those safer successors.
And this is exactly why you do not use shiny new languages for your projects. Hope tigerbeetle won't have too much trouble with this
jorangreef · 10h ago
This is exactly why we chose Zig.
Andrew’s design decisions in the language have always been impeccable. I’ve never seen him put a foot wrong and would have made the same change myself.
This is also not new to us, Andrew spoke about this at Systems Distributed ‘25.
Also, TigerBeetle has and owns its own IO stack in any event, and we’ve always been careful to use stable language features.
But regardless, it’s in our nature to “do the right thing”, even if that means a bit of change. We call this “Edge” and explicitly hire for people who have the same characteristic, the craftspeople who know how to spot great technical quality, regardless of how young (or old!) a project may be.
Finally, I’ve been in Zig since 2018. I wouldn’t exactly call it “shiny new”. Zig already has the highest quality toolchain and std lib of anything I would use.
tialaramex · 9h ago
> Andrew’s design decisions in the language have always been impeccable. I’ve never seen him put a foot wrong and would have made the same change myself.
Interesting, who designed the old Zig IO stack which alas Andrew needed to replace?
This is a few months after `git init`. You can see I was really just working on the parser, with a toy example to get things started.
Over time, I merged contributions that made minor changes and shuffled things around, and these APIs evolved to kind of work okay. But nobody really considered "the Zig IO stack" as a whole and put in design effort. That is happening for the first time right now.
This is how programming languages are constructed. Things evolve slowly over time, and periodically you have to reevaluate things and do major reworkings.
BrouteMinou · 9h ago
I've built a bridge 20 years ago. It was great, people could finally go from one side of the river to the other.
Everyday, more and more people started using that bridge.
In 2025, I've rebuilt the bridge twice as big to accommodate the demand of a growing community.
It's great and the people love it!
8n4vidtmkvmk · 52m ago
But some people are upset because you put the new bridge in a new location and now it's inconvenient for them?
eviks · 9h ago
Indeed, but to be fair, the old stack was done with a hand, not a foot!
eddythompson80 · 9h ago
A less experienced Andrew
jorangreef · 8h ago
I think what you're not appreciating is how this design is a huge improvement over the status quo, not only in Zig, but also the streaming interfaces in most languages.
Wait till the SD25 talk on this comes out, to first understand the rationale a bit better!
robertlagrant · 8h ago
> I think what you're not appreciating is how this design is a huge improvement
The point was that if he did the old design, which needed improving enough to justify breaking the language backwards compatibility, then why say his decisions are impeccable? Pobody's nerfect.
jorangreef · 8h ago
Yes, and my point (in response) was that Zig's status quo was no different from other languages, but now is better. (There's some humor in the issue's title “Writergate” here!)
Again, we use Zig, and this change is welcome for us.
We also like that Zig is able to break backwards compatibility, and are fully signed up for that.
The crucial thing for TigerBeetle is that Zig as language will make the right calls looking to the next few decades, rather than ossify for fear of people who don't use it.
DanielHB · 8h ago
> Zig already has the highest quality toolchain and std lib of anything I would use.
My couple of days experience with Zig was very lackluster with the std lib, not that it is bad, but feels like it is lacking a lot of bare essentials. To be expected for a new pre-1.0 language of course.
flohofwoe · 7h ago
Depends on which language you're coming from. Compared to C or even C++, the Zig stdlib has already many more things to offer. Compared to Python or Node.js it's quite bare bones.
DanielHB · 4h ago
Fair, I was mentally comparing to Go. I was a bit disappointed there wasn't more wrappers around basic OS stuff. Go stdlib wraps everything and does its best to make stuff cross-platform.
In my specific case I was trying to send some DNS messages. I went the route of linking libc and using the posix data structures for DNS messages and struggled quite a bit how to map the C data structures to my program.
This kind of thing is a big barrier to adoption unfortunately.
zwnow · 9h ago
Good to know, also thanks for the detailed reply! Glad you are fully aware of these nuances, but it also doesn't surprise me considering your amazing presentation of Tigerbeetle! Much success in the future.
jorangreef · 8h ago
Thanks zwnow, appreciate your kind words, and my pleasure!
I think you'll enjoy Andrew's talk on this too when it comes out in the next few weeks.
The velocity of Zig has been valuable for us. Being able to put things like io_uring or @prefetch in the std lib or language, and having them merged quickly. Zig has been so solid, even with all the fuzzing we do. It's really held up, and upgrades across versions have not been much work, only a pleasure.
hmry · 10h ago
Zig is the only language I've used where every library specifies the one (and only) compiler version it works on in their GitHub readme.
flohofwoe · 7h ago
How many pre-release languages are you typically using though?
kunley · 9h ago
Experienced quite the contrary, some time ago at least..
Which is a pity because really liked the language, but the discovering what works with what, oh dear
ozgrakkurt · 10h ago
TigerBeetle uses io_uring afaik so they don’t use these io interfaces at all.
Also found that these interfaces only cause problems for performance and flexibility in rust so didn’t even look at them in zig.
eviks · 10h ago
The risk isn't unique to shiny new languages
Hamuko · 10h ago
Are people deploying production code in a language that is still in its 0.x version?
ozgrakkurt · 10h ago
A lot of people were using tokio in prod when it was 0.1 and didn’t get upset afaik.
Rust didn’t even have async await at that time
bogdan · 9h ago
Some prod are more prod than the others.
Ygg2 · 7h ago
> A lot of people were using tokio in prod when it was 0.1 and didn’t get upset afaik.
Citation needed. A lot of people wanted Rust to stabilize. Hence why they huried to Rust 1.0.
cenamus · 10h ago
I mean, what's the difference to the python 2/3 debacle? People were writing/extending in python 2 long after it was declared obsolete
skybrian · 47m ago
Static types help to find what needs to be fixed. Something like 'go fix' would be useful for fixing them. Apparently something like that is being considered for zig.
mirashii · 10h ago
It's not about sticking around on an old version, it's about ever being able to catch up, and what the rest of the ecosystem is going to do. Python did this major version bump that broke a lot of the ecosystem, and it went so poorly that they've effectively promised never to do it again and completely excised any thought of ever having a major version bump again, and other languages and communities now point to it regularly as a debacle to be avoided.
When you break things regularly, you're forcing a choice on every individual package in the ecosystem: move forward, and leave the old users behind, or stay behind, and risk that the rest of the ecosystem moves forward without you. Now you've got a whole ecosystem in a prisoner's dilemma. For an individual, maybe you can make a choice and dig in and make your way along without too much trouble. But the ecosystem as a whole can't, the ecosystem fractures, and if it doesn't converge on the latest version, it slowly withers and dies.
Hamuko · 10h ago
Not having breaking changes every N months?
flohofwoe · 7h ago
Each new minor Python 3.x version has plenty of deprecations followed by removals in the stdlib though.
Hamuko · 4h ago
I don't think even those are particularly short periods. TestCase.assertEquals() was deprecated in Python 3.2 (February 2011) and removed in Python 3.12 (October 2023). 12 ⅔ years to get rid of a silly alias because it's a breaking change (of a single character).
zwnow · 10h ago
I dont but there are companies who trust the language (which is a good thing but also short sighted)
noobermin · 6h ago
This arguably is why julia still has no real users and python, c++, and fortran still rule in hpc, despite hypsters doing the hyping.
At some point people just want their code to work so they go back to something that just works and won't break in a few years.
vrighter · 5h ago
python is a really bad example. Code constantly stops working properly with language updates.
throwawaymaths · 6h ago
how was python 2/3 again?
nromiun · 2h ago
Famous because of how rare it was.
lpapez · 9h ago
At my first job, the senior guy on my team used to say:
"Software is just like lasagna. It has many layers, and it tastes best after you let it sit for a while".
I still follow this principle years down the line and avoid introducing shiny new things on my projects.
WhereIsTheTruth · 9h ago
well, in that case, the lasagna is still being cooked, until served (1.0), why question the chef?
let him cook
8n4vidtmkvmk · 44m ago
1.0s never land smoothly. That's when the herd of users comes and all the rough edges are actually found. The real 1.0 is 1.1.
adastra22 · 8h ago
[flagged]
thiht · 8h ago
[flagged]
rcastellotti · 8h ago
[flagged]
ladyanita22 · 8h ago
Be as sarcastic as you want. This is a feeling many developers probably share.
3836293648 · 8h ago
Then those developers won't ever use anything ever. Why would breaking changes in an explicitly unstable development version exclude it from use for all time?
If you want stability, stick to stuff that has stability guarantees, but at the very least let them make breaking changes during development.
ozgrakkurt · 5h ago
And “I don’t care if you use it or not” is a feeling many other developers share so both are valid
tobyhinloopen · 2h ago
Every time I touched Zig, examples I found on the internet were no longer working. I worked on a project for a while and then the stuff I used was deprecated / broken on the newer version.
I like Zig, but I'm waiting for it to become somewhat stable, because the amount of breaking changes feels pretty significant. I suppose that's the price of progress.
melodyogonna · 2h ago
That is because the language is pre-1.0.
The new language I follow a lot is Mojo, it also has this problem.
I think the only way to follow a new (unstable) language is to join whatever community where the conversation happens; otherwise, what you think you know about the language will become outdated pretty quickly.
Point being, I feel like a lot of the gripes about zig changing here and there are really by folks who aren't really daily users, just people who see a !!breaking change!! announcement and pile on.
Though, I do sympathize with newcomers because the memory of the internet is pinned to various older versions with lots of demo code that 'just doesn't work' and of course that means LLMs too, in the long run. Hopefully zig doesn't get stuck past the global knowledge/popularity LLM-cycle cutoff. I don't think it will.
I find the `Reader.stream(writer, limit)` and `Reader.streamRemaining(writer)` functions to be especially elegant to build a push-based data transformation pipeline (like GREP or compression/encryption). You just implement a Writer interface for your state machine and dump the output into another Writer and you don't have to care about how the bytes come and how they leave (be it a socket or shared memory or file) -- you just set the buffer sizes (which you can even set to zero as I gather!)
`Writer.sendFile()` is also nice, I don't know of any other stream abstraction that provides this primitive in the "generic interface", you usually have to downcast the stream to a "FileStream" and work on the file descriptor directly.
I hope that the Zig team invests more into helping with migration than they have in the past. My experience for past breaking changes is that downstream developers got left in the cold without clear guidance about how to fix breaking changes.
In Zig 0.12.0 (released just a year ago), there were a lot of breaking changes to the build system that the release notes didn't explain at all. To see what I mean, look at the changes I had to make[0] in a Zig 0.11.0 project and then search the release notes[1] for guidance on those changes. Most of the breaking changes aren't even mentioned, much less explained how to migrate from 0.11.0 to 0.12.0.
>Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make.
>-Lord Farquaad
[0] https://github.com/mtlynch/zenith/pull/90/files#diff-f87bb35...
[1] https://ziglang.org/download/0.12.0/release-notes.html
[0] https://harelang.org/blog/2025-06-11-hare-update/
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM70TROZQsI
An automated tool would be great, but even good documentation with examples of before vs. after code snippets would go a long way.
Even better if it can be done with a deterministic codemod, but a prompt is easier to write.
Let's take this change as an example. If I already wrote a program that used the old apis and meets my needs what is the benefit of this change for me? Now I have to go back and rewrite my old code and I might introduce a new bug in the migration, especially if I don't understand all of the nuance in the difference between the apis. Even if I agree that the new apis are better, the cost of migration might outweigh the benefits, but I am forced in to the migration or forking the compiler, which both might be bad choices for me.
It is not necessary to do this. They could, for example, have versioned stdlib and then maybe all I need to is pin my stdlib version. One complaint is that having multiple standard libraries causes more maintenance burden, but why should that be the primary concern? What is the cost to the maintainer vs. the cost to the community. If you make 1000 users spend an hour migrating their code, are you really going to save 1000 hours of maintenance burden?
Moreover, if the zig team wrote code with the assumption that they can never get rid of it, perhaps they wouldn't make so many design mistakes that all of these breaking changes become inevitable.
If I wrote a program in zig, I would feel obligated to also learn how to bootstrap it so that I wouldn't be subject to unwanted breaking changes. But then I see that bootstrapping involves some bizarre wasm hack instead of the tried and true bootstrapping approach of writing a simple first pass compiler in c (or some other language) and I am reminded again why I would never choose this language.
When someone creates something others want, it'll inevitably become popular.
If your app is stable, could you not keep using the version you're happy with?
The hack allows the compiler to be maintained in Zig, compiled to WASM (a supported backend), and then bootstrapped with only a wasm interpreter… and one is provided in a single C file (I believe… but haven’t looked in a while).
This is a much nicer situation than most other bootstrap scenarios. All the SMLs, for instance, require you to have a whole other SML! MoscowML bootstraps with an included Caml interpreter… but it’s not sufficient to compile MLton.
Looking over the changes, they seem wise and well justified. Fixing my old codebases will be annoying, but I don't mind the annoyance if a better language comes out the other end.
...I think the only thing that's aggressively marketed is that the Zig team isn't afraid of big and controversial breaking changes ;) If you can't handle that, then Zig currently isn't right for you, it's as simple as that.
> They could, for example, have versioned stdlib and then maybe all I need to is pin my stdlib version.
That really only makes sense for after 1.0, and even after that only for stdlib APIs that are out of the experimental phase.
But post 1.x some sort of migration support for breaking changes would indeed be much more useful than trying to prevent breaking changes at all cost.
> and I am reminded again why I would never choose this language.
...then why even write such a lengthy comment? Just ignore Zig and move on... it's not like there's plenty of other languages which might better fit your taste.
are you sure?
VOD: https://youtu.be/x3hOiOcbgeA
Does the new change make it easier to store reader/writer in a struct?
I maintain the zigler library, and one thing that was useful about the old async "colored-but-not-really" functions was that they implicitly tolerate having internal suspend points (detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDfjdGva3NE&t=1819s) -- I'm not sure if having IO be a passed parameter will still let me do that? Can users build their own functions with yield points? And will you be able to jump out of the frame of a function and give control back to the executor, to let it resume later?
As you're aware, that feature of the language ("stackless coroutines", "generators", "rewriting function logic into a state machine") was regressed. At first, this new IO interface won't have that capability.
However, as a followup issue, I'd like to reintroduce it, potentially in more low-level manner, for use inside IO implementations. Combined with restricted function pointers, this will allow functions that can suspend to pass through runtime-known function pointer boundaries - something that was terribly clunky before to the point that it compromised the entire design. This means that, again, the same IO interface usage code will be able to be reused, including when the implementation uses suspend points, and the automatic calling convention rewriting will be able to propagate through the interface into the usage code.
The issue to track is: https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/23446
I'll add that I'm still keen on the previous suspend/resume keywords and semantics as a solution to this issue.
As an aside, do you think in the near future there will be a "guide to building a compiler backend" either in-project or by the community?
What bothers me with C/C++ is how difficult it is to cross compile a simple Windows + SDL app from inside WSL without MSVC installed.
I've spent weeks on this.
If Zig saves me from that nightmare, and still lets me use C++ libraries, I will gladly switch over to it.
Fast forward a few decades to today and the best solution to cross-compile C/C++ projects is the Zig toolchain (and isn't that kinda weird? A "foreign" toolchain coming along fixing one of the biggest problems in the C/C++ ecosystem just like that as a "side quest"?)
We build for Linux and Windows on Linux using gcc/mingw and don't have any fundamental issues doing so. On macOS we need the headers & libraries for macOS, we have to do those inside a VM.
I'd be extremely surprised if you can cross-compile Zig for macOS on a non-macOS platform, unless it doesn't use any macOS native frameworks at any level.
...you don't even need to port anything in your C/C++ project to Zig, just integrate `zig cc` as C/C++ compiler into your existing build system, or port your build system files to build.zig.
The fact that another breaking change has been introduced confirms my suspicion that Zig is not ready for primetime.
My conclusion is to just use C. For low-level programming it's very hard to improve on C. There is not likely to be any killer feature that some other contender will allow you to write the same code in a fifth of the lines nor make the code any more understandable.
Yes, C may have its quirky behaviour that people gnash their teeth over. But ultimately, it's not that bad.
If you want to use a better C, use C++. C++ is perfectly fine for using with microcontrollers, for example. Now get back to work!
Also, "Zig the language" is currently better designed than "Zig the stdlib", so breaking changes will actually be needed in the future at least in the stdlib because getting it right the first time is very unlikely, and I don't like to be stuck with bad initial design decisions which then can't be fixed for decades (again, as a perfect example of how not to do it, see C++)
A language, in special, should be able to do it. Extreme compatibility is the way to make the mistake that is C.
A breaking change that fix something is a investing that extend infinity to the feature.
Fear to do it, like in C, is how you accumulate errors, mistakes, millions of dollars wasted, because is also compound debt.
P.D: I think langs should be fast to break pre 1.0, and maybe have room to do it each 5/7 years. Despite the debacle of Python (that is in fact more reflective of python than of breaking), there should be possible to make a relatively painless sunsetting with good caring
And in the end, things do improve significantly.
In this case, I think the new IO stuff is incredible.
Huh, it was the 0.14 version number for me.
https://0ver.org/
I also have to disagree with C++ for micro controllers / bare metal programming. You don't get the standard library so you're missing out on most features that make C++ worthwhile over C. Sure you get namespaces, constexpr and templates but without any standard types you'll have to build a lot on your own just to start out with.
I recently switched to Rust for a bare metal project and while its not perfect I get a lot more "high level" features than with C or C++.
Building our own types was a rite of passage for C++ programming back in the early 1990's, and university curriculums for C++ as well.
Why is that? Sure, allocating containers and other exception-throwing facilities are a no-go but the stdlib still contains a lot of useful and usable stuff like <type_traits>, <utility>, <source_location>, <bit>, <optional>, <coroutine> [1] and so on
[1] yes they allocate, but operator new can easily be overridden for the promise class and can get the coro function arguments forwarded to it. For example if coro function takes a "Foo &foo", you can have operator new return foo.m_Buffer (and -fno-exceptions gets rid of unwinding code gen)
In C the freestanding environment doesn't provide any concrete features, you don't get any functions at all, you can get a bunch of useful constants such as the value of Pi or the maximum value that will fit in an unsigned integer, some typedefs, that's about it. Concrete stuff from the "C standard library" is not available, for example it does not provide any sort of in-place sort algorithm, or a way to compare whether two things are the same (if they fit in a primitive you can use the equality operator)
In C++ there are concrete functions provided by the language standard in freestanding mode. These, together with definitions for types etc. form the freestanding version of the "standard library" in C++. There's a long period where this was basically untended, it wasn't removed but it also wasn't tracking new features or feedback. In the last few C++ versions that improved, but even if you have a new enough compiler and it's fully compliant (most are not) there's still not always a rhyme or reason to what is or is not available.
In Rust it's really easy. You always have core, if you've got a heap allocator of some sort you can have alloc, and if there's a whole operating system it provides std.
In most cases a whole type lives entirely in one of those modules, Duration for example lives in core. Maybe your $5 device has no idea which year this is, let alone day but it does definitely know 60 seconds is a minute.
But in some cases modules extend a type. For example arrays exist in core of course - an array of sixty Doodads where Doodads claim to be Totally Ordered, can just be unstably sorted, that works. But, what if we want a stable sort, so that if two equal Doodads were arranged A, B they are not reversed B, A ? Well Rust's core module doesn't provide a stable sort, the stable sort provided uses an allocation and so the entire function you need just doesn't exist unless you've got allocators.
> This is roughly analogous to Rust's nostd.
"freestanding" is actually worse that this. It means that the compiler can't even assume things about memcpy and optimize it out (as on gcc it implies -fno-builtin), which pessimizes a lot of idiomatic code (eg. serialization).
The "-nostdlib" option is usually what one wants in many cases (don't link against libc but still provide standard C and C++ headers), such as when compiling privileged code with -mgeneral-regs only and such. This way you can benefit from <chrono>, etc.
If you are writing userland code you should be using a toolchain for this, instead of relying of freestanding/nostdlib which are geared towards kernel code and towards working around defective toolchains.
Also embedded covers a very wide range of computers.
There is also devkitPPC, shipping with the same toolchain (and which additionally has some Obj-C support iirc).
Custom patches to newlib and consorts (https://github.com/devkitPro/buildscripts/) introduce hooks and WEAK functions that allow to implement standard library functions on almost any platform, on a platform library basis or even on a per-program basis (with some restrictions on lock sizes).
Vendors at this point seem to give their implementation of some of the std library components, but the one's I've seen were lacking in terms of features.
This distinction makes it really comfortable to use.
Though one caveat about no_std is that you'll need some support library like https://docs.rs/cortex-m-rt/latest/cortex_m_rt/
If your micro controller is say <5000 lines maybe ... but an OS or a mellanox verbs or dpdk API won't fall so easily to such surface level thinking.
Maybe zig could help itself by providing through llvm what Google sometimes does for large api breaking changes ... have llvm tool that searches out old api invocation update to new so upgrading is faster, more operationally effective.
Google's tools do this and give the dev a source code pr candidate. That's how they can change zillions of calls with confidence.
https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/5973
I think the main big thing that’s left for 1.0 is to resurrect async/await.. and that’s a huge thing because arguably very few if any language has gotten that truly right.
As the PR description mentions: “This is part of a series of changes leading up to "I/O as an Interface" and Async/Await Resurrection.”
So this work is partially related to getting async/await right. And getting IO right is a very important part of that.
I think it’s a good idea for Zig to try to avoid a Python 3 situation after they reach 1.0. The project seems fairly focused to me, but they’re trying to solve some difficult problems. And they spend more time working on the compiler and compiler infrastructure than other languages, which is also good. Working on their own backend is actually critical for the language itself, because part of what’s holding Zig back from doing async right is limitations and flaws in LLVM
Interesting. I like Zig. I dabble periodically. I’m hoping that maturity and our next generation ag tech device in a few years might intersect.
Throwing another colored function debacle in a language, replete with yet another round of the familiar but defined slightly differently keywords, would be a big turn off for me. I don’t even know if Grand Central Dispatch counts, but it—and of course Elixir/Erlang—are the only two “on beyond closures/callbacks” asynch system I’ve found worked well.
This would involve removing async/await as keywords from the language.
now, if you want to be a library writer, yeah, you have to color your functions if you don't want to be an asshole, but for the 95% use case this is not function coloring.
this was interesting! Do you have a link or something to be able to read about it?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Zig/comments/1d66gtp/comment/l6umbt...
Programming languages which do get used are always in flux, for good reason - python is still undergoing major changes (free-threading, immutability, and others), and I'm grateful for it.
I still think what drives languages to continuously make changes is the focus on developer UX, or at least the intent to make it better. So, PLs with more developers will always keep evolving.
JangaFX stuff is written in Odin and has some pretty big users.
https://jangafx.com/ https://odin-lang.org/showcase/
I wish it moved to snake_case for functions, this is a cosmetic detail but it drives me crazy.
They’re not rushing, that’s for sure. But I’ve never felt worried about 1.0 never happening in an unending pursuit of unrealistic impossible ideals.
It seems like folks expect stability pre 1.0.
People used to compare it as simpler than Rust. I don't agree that it's simple anymore at all.
None of this is meant to be badmouthing or insulting. I'm a polyglot but love simple languages and syntaxes, so I tend to overly notice such things.
I tend to fall into the former camp. Something like BF would be the ultimate simple language, even if not particularly useful.
a few things have been removed, too. and async/suspend/nosuspend/await, usingnamesplace are headed for the woodchipper.
So where is Zig's OS, browser, docker, engine, security, whatever XYZ, that would make having Zig on the toolbox a requirement?
I don't see Bun nor Tiger Beetle being that app.
Most of it you can already get in C and C++, by using the tools that have in the market for the last 30 years.
Andrew’s design decisions in the language have always been impeccable. I’ve never seen him put a foot wrong and would have made the same change myself.
This is also not new to us, Andrew spoke about this at Systems Distributed ‘25.
Also, TigerBeetle has and owns its own IO stack in any event, and we’ve always been careful to use stable language features.
But regardless, it’s in our nature to “do the right thing”, even if that means a bit of change. We call this “Edge” and explicitly hire for people who have the same characteristic, the craftspeople who know how to spot great technical quality, regardless of how young (or old!) a project may be.
Finally, I’ve been in Zig since 2018. I wouldn’t exactly call it “shiny new”. Zig already has the highest quality toolchain and std lib of anything I would use.
Interesting, who designed the old Zig IO stack which alas Andrew needed to replace?
Here is the commit where Reader/Writer was introduced: https://github.com/ziglang/zig/commit/5e212db29cf9e2c06aba36...
This is a few months after `git init`. You can see I was really just working on the parser, with a toy example to get things started.
Over time, I merged contributions that made minor changes and shuffled things around, and these APIs evolved to kind of work okay. But nobody really considered "the Zig IO stack" as a whole and put in design effort. That is happening for the first time right now.
This is how programming languages are constructed. Things evolve slowly over time, and periodically you have to reevaluate things and do major reworkings.
Everyday, more and more people started using that bridge.
In 2025, I've rebuilt the bridge twice as big to accommodate the demand of a growing community.
It's great and the people love it!
Wait till the SD25 talk on this comes out, to first understand the rationale a bit better!
The point was that if he did the old design, which needed improving enough to justify breaking the language backwards compatibility, then why say his decisions are impeccable? Pobody's nerfect.
Again, we use Zig, and this change is welcome for us.
We also like that Zig is able to break backwards compatibility, and are fully signed up for that.
The crucial thing for TigerBeetle is that Zig as language will make the right calls looking to the next few decades, rather than ossify for fear of people who don't use it.
My couple of days experience with Zig was very lackluster with the std lib, not that it is bad, but feels like it is lacking a lot of bare essentials. To be expected for a new pre-1.0 language of course.
In my specific case I was trying to send some DNS messages. I went the route of linking libc and using the posix data structures for DNS messages and struggled quite a bit how to map the C data structures to my program.
This kind of thing is a big barrier to adoption unfortunately.
I think you'll enjoy Andrew's talk on this too when it comes out in the next few weeks.
The velocity of Zig has been valuable for us. Being able to put things like io_uring or @prefetch in the std lib or language, and having them merged quickly. Zig has been so solid, even with all the fuzzing we do. It's really held up, and upgrades across versions have not been much work, only a pleasure.
Which is a pity because really liked the language, but the discovering what works with what, oh dear
Also found that these interfaces only cause problems for performance and flexibility in rust so didn’t even look at them in zig.
Rust didn’t even have async await at that time
Citation needed. A lot of people wanted Rust to stabilize. Hence why they huried to Rust 1.0.
When you break things regularly, you're forcing a choice on every individual package in the ecosystem: move forward, and leave the old users behind, or stay behind, and risk that the rest of the ecosystem moves forward without you. Now you've got a whole ecosystem in a prisoner's dilemma. For an individual, maybe you can make a choice and dig in and make your way along without too much trouble. But the ecosystem as a whole can't, the ecosystem fractures, and if it doesn't converge on the latest version, it slowly withers and dies.
At some point people just want their code to work so they go back to something that just works and won't break in a few years.
"Software is just like lasagna. It has many layers, and it tastes best after you let it sit for a while".
I still follow this principle years down the line and avoid introducing shiny new things on my projects.
let him cook
If you want stability, stick to stuff that has stability guarantees, but at the very least let them make breaking changes during development.
I like Zig, but I'm waiting for it to become somewhat stable, because the amount of breaking changes feels pretty significant. I suppose that's the price of progress.
I think the only way to follow a new (unstable) language is to join whatever community where the conversation happens; otherwise, what you think you know about the language will become outdated pretty quickly.