I like keyword-only arguments, but they become tedious too quickly - especially when the variable names already match (fn(x=x, y=y, z=z)). I wish Python had JavaScript’s shorthand property syntax. (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...).
jampekka · 2h ago
JS's shorthand property syntax is lovely and elegant. Python can't really adopt it though as it clashes with the set syntax (which is such a niche use case it really shouldn't have a special syntax).
You could do something like f(**{x, y, z}) with just that. Not the prettiest, but at least it would be DRY.
But in general Python devs seem to prefer "explicit" ad-hoc syntax for each use case instead of composable "primitives". Which is approaching a kind of C++ situation where relatively few users know the syntax comprehensively.
sweetgiorni · 4h ago
Python 3.14 adds that shorthand, but with a slight different (and IMO uglier) syntax:
By the look of it, the feeling I get is that a decent and convenient syntax proposal has been bikeshedded into rejection. Some particular form of keyword arguments at invocation would definitely make quite a few of my scripts more readable.
pansa2 · 4h ago
That PEP says “rejected”
snickerdoodle12 · 1h ago
Thankfully so. As much as I want a shorthand, this syntax wasn't it.
dgan · 3h ago
there should definitely be an ocaml-like equivalent of "~argument"
meander_water · 3h ago
You can also explicitly specify which arguments need to be keyword only using the KW_ONLY sentinel type annotation:
from dataclasses import KW_ONLY
@dataclass
class Point:
x: float
_: KW_ONLY
y: float
z: float
p = Point(0, y=1.5, z=2.0)
eachro · 21m ago
Is there a reason to use data classes over pedantic base models anymore?
gjvc · 20m ago
did you mean: "pydantic base models" ?
FridgeSeal · 5h ago
Oh man, the aws Boto3 library does this for a huge number of calls, and it’s awful.
“What parameters does this take?” you ask, “why, it takes ‘kwargs’” responds the docs and your IDE.
How incredibly helpful!
chipx86 · 5h ago
That's annoying for sure. Though a different problem.
All the kw_only=True argument for dataclasses does is require that you pass any fields you want to provide as keyword arguments instead of positional arguments when instantiating a dataclass. So:
obj = MyDataclass(a=1, b=2, c=3)
Instead of:
obj = MyDataclass(1, 2, 3) # This would be an error with kw_only=True
The problem you're describing in boto3 (and a lot of other API bindings, and a lot of more layered Python code) is that methods often take in **kwargs and pass them down to a common function that's handling them. From the caller's perspective, **kwargs is a black box with no details on what's in there. Without a docstring or an understanding of the call chain, it's not helpful.
Python sort of has a fix for this now, which is to use a TypedDict to define all the possible values in the **kwargs, like so:
from typing import TypedDict, Unpack
class MyFuncKwargs(TypedDict):
arg1: str
arg2: str
arg3: int | None
def my_outer_func(
**kwargs: Unpack[MyFuncKwargs],
) -> None:
_my_inner_func(**kwargs)
def _my_inner_func(
*,
arg1: str,
arg2: str,
arg3: int | None,
) -> None:
...
By defining a TypedDict and typing **kwargs, the IDE and docs can do a better job of showing what arguments the function really takes, and validating them.
Also useful when the function is just a wrapper around serializing **kwargs to JSON for an API, or something.
But this feature is far from free to use. The more functions you have, the more of these you need to create and maintain.
Ideally, a function could type **kwargs as something like:
And then the IDEs and other tooling can just reference that function. This would help make the problem go away for many of the cases where **kwargs is used and passed around.
DanielVZ · 4h ago
In boto3 it helps to add a stubs package for development (and type checking).
joshdavham · 4h ago
Are there other ways to get this argument-enforcing behaviour in functions, not just data classes?
You could argue the same thing (forcing kwargs) for all Python functions/methods, although, that would make using your APIs very annoying. The `__init__` method for dataclasses are just another method like any other.
As a general rule of thumb, I only start forcing kwargs once I'm looking at above 4-5 arguments, or if the arguments are similar enough that forcing kwargs makes the calling code more readable. For a small number of distinct arguments, forcing kwargs as a blanket rule makes the code verbose for little gain IMO.
vbezhenar · 5h ago
> that would make using your APIs very annoying
For Objective C, using named parameters is the only way to call methods. I don't think I read many critique about this particular aspect. IMO it's actually a good thing and increases readability quite a bit.
For JavaScript/TypeScript React codebase, using objects as a poor man's named parameters also very popular approach.
Also I'd like to add, that it seems a recent trend to add feature to IDEs, where it'll add hint for every parameter, somewhat simulating named parameters. So when you write `mymethod(value)`, it'll display it as `mymethod(param:value)`.
So may be not very annoying.
The only little thing I'd like to borrow from JavaScript is using "shortcut", so you could replace `x=x` with `x`, if your local variable happened to have the same name, as parameter name (which happens often enough).
laserlight · 3h ago
To be pedantic, Objective-C doesn't have named parameters. Method names are composed of multiple parts, each corresponding to a parameter. Such design contributes to the method's readability and memorability. In contrast, Python methods have their own names, and parameter names are chosen as an afterthought. While there's no reason why Python methods couldn't be named in accordance with parameter names, unfortunately it hasn't been a part of Python's culture.
masklinn · 7h ago
> You could argue the same thing (forcing kwargs) for all Python functions/methods, although, that would make using your APIs very annoying. The `__init__` method for dataclasses are just another method like any other.
While that is self evident at a technical level, it is not quite so from a clarity / documentary perspective: “normal” functions and methods can often hint at their parameters through their naming but it is uncommon for types, for which the composite tends to be much more of an implementation detail.
Of course neither rule is universal e.g. the composite is of prime importance for newtypes, and indeed they often use tuple-style types or have special support with no member names.
joshdavham · 7h ago
> Positional arguments means a caller can use MyDataClass(1, 'foo', False), and if you remove/reorder any of these arguments, you’ll break those callers unexpectedly. By forcing callers to use MyDataClass(x=1, y='foo', z=False), you remove this risk.
This is an awesome way to prevent future breaking changes!
...but unfortunately, adding this to an existing project would also likely result in breakings changes haha
chipx86 · 6h ago
That's always the challenge when iterating on interfaces that other people depend on.
What we do is go through a deprecation phase. Our process is:
* We provide compatibility with the old signature for 2 major releases.
* We document the change and the timeline clearly in the docstring.
* The function gets decorated with a helper that checks the call, and if any keyword-only arguments are provided as positional, it warns and converts them to keyword-only.
* After 2 major releases, we move fully to the new signature.
We buit a Python library called housekeeping (https://github.com/beanbaginc/housekeeping) to help with this. One of the things it contains is a decorator called `@deprecate_non_keyword_only_args`, which takes a deprecation warning class and a function using the signature we're moving to. That decorator handles the check logic and generates a suitable, consistent deprecation message.
That normally looks like:
@deprecate_non_keyword_only_args(MyDeprecationWarning)
def my_func(*, a, b, c):
...
But this is a bit more tricky with dataclasses, since `__init__()` is generated automatically. Fortunately, it can be patched after the fact. A bit less clean, but doable.
So here's how we'd handle this case with dataclasses:
from dataclasses import dataclass
from housekeeping import BaseRemovedInWarning, deprecate_non_keyword_only_args
class RemovedInMyProject20Warning(BaseRemovedInWarning):
product = 'MyProject'
version = '2.0'
@dataclass(kw_only=True)
class MyDataclass:
a: int
b: int
c: str
MyDataclass.__init__ = deprecate_non_keyword_only_args(
RemovedInMyProject20Warning
)(MyDataclass.__init__)
Call it with some positional arguments:
dc = MyDataclass(1, 2, c='hi')
and you'd get:
testdataclass.py:26: RemovedInMyProject20Warning: Positional arguments `a`, `b` must be passed as keyword arguments when calling `__main__.MyDataclass.__init__()`. Passing as positional arguments will be required in MyProject 2.0.
dc = MyDataclass(1, 2, c='hi')
We'll probably add explicit dataclass support to this soon, since we're starting to move to kw_only=True for dataclasses.
codethief · 5h ago
Shouldn't you also be able to patch MyDataclass in a class decorator (on top of/after @dataclass)?
chipx86 · 5h ago
Yeah, that's the approach we'll be taking in housekeeping. I didn't want to complicate the example any more than I already did :)
est · 4h ago
I tried using python dataclasses in some projects, the only complaint is that I can not directly pass any dict to a dataclass but have to lint only supported keys.
I think a better way to init a dataclass would be something like `mydataclass(my_dict, lint=True)` instead of passing values as kwargs.
You could do something like f(**{x, y, z}) with just that. Not the prettiest, but at least it would be DRY.
But in general Python devs seem to prefer "explicit" ad-hoc syntax for each use case instead of composable "primitives". Which is approaching a kind of C++ situation where relatively few users know the syntax comprehensively.
edit: nevermind, that PEP was rejected :/
“What parameters does this take?” you ask, “why, it takes ‘kwargs’” responds the docs and your IDE.
How incredibly helpful!
All the kw_only=True argument for dataclasses does is require that you pass any fields you want to provide as keyword arguments instead of positional arguments when instantiating a dataclass. So:
Instead of: The problem you're describing in boto3 (and a lot of other API bindings, and a lot of more layered Python code) is that methods often take in **kwargs and pass them down to a common function that's handling them. From the caller's perspective, **kwargs is a black box with no details on what's in there. Without a docstring or an understanding of the call chain, it's not helpful.Python sort of has a fix for this now, which is to use a TypedDict to define all the possible values in the **kwargs, like so:
By defining a TypedDict and typing **kwargs, the IDE and docs can do a better job of showing what arguments the function really takes, and validating them.Also useful when the function is just a wrapper around serializing **kwargs to JSON for an API, or something.
But this feature is far from free to use. The more functions you have, the more of these you need to create and maintain.
Ideally, a function could type **kwargs as something like:
And then the IDEs and other tooling can just reference that function. This would help make the problem go away for many of the cases where **kwargs is used and passed around.https://peps.python.org/pep-3102/
More recently, Python also added support for positional-only parameters:
https://peps.python.org/pep-0570/
As a general rule of thumb, I only start forcing kwargs once I'm looking at above 4-5 arguments, or if the arguments are similar enough that forcing kwargs makes the calling code more readable. For a small number of distinct arguments, forcing kwargs as a blanket rule makes the code verbose for little gain IMO.
For Objective C, using named parameters is the only way to call methods. I don't think I read many critique about this particular aspect. IMO it's actually a good thing and increases readability quite a bit.
For JavaScript/TypeScript React codebase, using objects as a poor man's named parameters also very popular approach.
Also I'd like to add, that it seems a recent trend to add feature to IDEs, where it'll add hint for every parameter, somewhat simulating named parameters. So when you write `mymethod(value)`, it'll display it as `mymethod(param:value)`.
So may be not very annoying.
The only little thing I'd like to borrow from JavaScript is using "shortcut", so you could replace `x=x` with `x`, if your local variable happened to have the same name, as parameter name (which happens often enough).
While that is self evident at a technical level, it is not quite so from a clarity / documentary perspective: “normal” functions and methods can often hint at their parameters through their naming but it is uncommon for types, for which the composite tends to be much more of an implementation detail.
Of course neither rule is universal e.g. the composite is of prime importance for newtypes, and indeed they often use tuple-style types or have special support with no member names.
This is an awesome way to prevent future breaking changes!
...but unfortunately, adding this to an existing project would also likely result in breakings changes haha
What we do is go through a deprecation phase. Our process is:
* We provide compatibility with the old signature for 2 major releases.
* We document the change and the timeline clearly in the docstring.
* The function gets decorated with a helper that checks the call, and if any keyword-only arguments are provided as positional, it warns and converts them to keyword-only.
* After 2 major releases, we move fully to the new signature.
We buit a Python library called housekeeping (https://github.com/beanbaginc/housekeeping) to help with this. One of the things it contains is a decorator called `@deprecate_non_keyword_only_args`, which takes a deprecation warning class and a function using the signature we're moving to. That decorator handles the check logic and generates a suitable, consistent deprecation message.
That normally looks like:
But this is a bit more tricky with dataclasses, since `__init__()` is generated automatically. Fortunately, it can be patched after the fact. A bit less clean, but doable.So here's how we'd handle this case with dataclasses:
Call it with some positional arguments: and you'd get: We'll probably add explicit dataclass support to this soon, since we're starting to move to kw_only=True for dataclasses.I think a better way to init a dataclass would be something like `mydataclass(my_dict, lint=True)` instead of passing values as kwargs.