The reason the US car industry does not want a $25k car is that the financing opportunities are crap for a car of this low cost.
In the same way that airlines exist to offer you a miles based credit card, the US car dealerships survive by offering you a loan for the car. Or perhaps, a car to go with your structured finance opportunity.
snovymgodym · 9h ago
It's pretty simple (in the US, can't speak for elsewhere).
There are 2 big factors at play:
1. Margins. Manufacturers make huge margins on expensive vehicles and very slim margins on cheap vehicles. The numbers differ, but I think even in the lead up to the 2008 crisis automakers had to sell 5-10 "econobox" cars to make the profit they made on one luxury car, SUV, or truck.
2. Normalization of debt. For many Americans, having a monthly car payment in perpetuity is considered acceptable. Car loans have their place and can be used responsibly, but due to marketing, sales tactics, and cultural sensibilities what often ends up happening is that people start from a monthly dollar amount and then work forwards to buy the most expensive vehicle they can, even if it means taking the loan term out to 72 or 84 months. It's also very normal for people to never pay off their car, instead trading in the vehicle after 3-5 years and rolling equity in the loan over to their next car. Obviously, this consumer habit is great for dealers, manufacturers, creditors and buyers of consumer debt, as well as the US Government and investors -- it's just not ideal for the consumers themselves if they're trying to preserve wealth and build savings.
These two factors create an environment increasingly hostile to the cheap entry level car. Consumer demand is low since most don't spend responsibly, and automakers don't really want to make or sell them because the margins are so slim.
JKCalhoun · 51m ago
I think the cost of a car is a huge drag on the upward mobility on the lower income earners in the U.S.
roxolotl · 26m ago
100%. And it doesn’t help that large cars as a cultural touchstone/status symbol really took off. Even if a $25k car existed most people wouldn’t buy it(even if they “should”).
SJC_Hacker · 16m ago
Because they are buying new and financing it
msgodel · 6h ago
>having a monthly car payment in perpetuity is considered acceptable.
I think that really depends on what part of America. At least where I grew up around a bunch of middle class conservatives listening to eg Dave Ramsey (who has other problems IMO) most people think of you as reckless/irresponsible for doing that sort of thing.
aprilthird2021 · 27m ago
I grew up around a bunch of middle class conservatives in the Southern USA and almost all of them were into debt on house, car, often even taking loans to pay for kids private school.
And you'd never know until the family divorced and their lifestyle drastically decreases.
Dave Ramsey has to be relatively new because debt was extremely extremely common among conservatives in the US (no idea about liberals didn't live among them)
msgodel · 23s ago
A good portion of them did get a mortgage. To my knowledge none of them have car payments, most drive used beaters like I do.
SJC_Hacker · 15m ago
Houses are debt, but are generally and appreciating asset
Cars are a depreciating asset. It usually does not make sense to go into debt to get one
autobodie · 8h ago
the interest on those loans is maddening
standardUser · 12m ago
Americans like to upgrade their cars, not unlike their cell phones, and they often have a monthly car payment (or two) that never permanently goes away.
That makes some sense to me, but if the goal is to always have a nice car, doesn't it makes much more sense to lease? The monthly payments will be a few hundred bucks less and you can upgrade every 2-3 years. And from what I understand, leasing agents like to give incentives after your first lease to keep you in the cycle.
Personally, if I were aiming for the most economical option, I'd lease a Nissan Leaf for ~$300/mo.
timewizard · 58s ago
Read that lease contract carefully. It's meant for a very narrow segment of drivers.
paxys · 5h ago
One fact not mentioned in the article - Americans now owe $1.64 trillion in auto loans, and cars make up 9% of all consumer debt in the country. In fact we now owe more on cars than student loans. The average loan term is rising - almost 6 years now. 60-day delinquency on auto loans is at 6.6%, the highest ever recorded, and is as high as 9% in some states.
So while car prices keep going up, people also keep going deeper into debt to buy one they can't afford.
You can blame manufacturers or banks, but ultimately the problem is unchecked consumerism and treating cars as a status symbol, which is sadly pervasive in this country.
arwhatever · 12m ago
Occasionally see pizza delivery signs atop super duty trucks where I live.
JKCalhoun · 48m ago
When, as the article says, the $25k car is going extinct, I do blame manufacturers and banks (and the dealerships).
philistine · 1h ago
As if the car was ever only a utilitarian commodity at any point in its history. The car has always been a status symbol.
denkmoon · 59m ago
welp, guess my corolla needs to last until I die. I spent about $9k usd (in australia though) on it second hand pre covid and I'm just gobsmacked at the prices of vehciles now even years post covid. I make good coin and I just can't see how non-"enthusiasts" can justify spending so much money on their vehicle. there are houses in my suburb with 3-4 of these expensive, new model cars out front.
sien · 26m ago
Cars are the worst spending many, perhaps most people make.
It's remarkable in Australia how many people are borrowing and paying much more for them as well.
Driving a Corolla, Mazda 2, Kia Rio or something can save so much money.
These days these are remarkably good cars too.
aprilthird2021 · 33m ago
If Australia is like the US, all those cars are leases or debt-financed
notesinthefield · 37m ago
The closest thing to affordable and comfortable I could find this past year after maintenance costs pilling up on my ‘15 Ford Fiesta (that I got for a staggering $14k post college) was a Honda HRV Sport. Has all the basics, incredible sensing system, lots of space decent gas mileage and drives well at around 28k in Ohio. My partner has an Accord and honestly its a better car. Incredibly good gas mileage, reliable, perfect for an A to B person that doesnt want to worry about their car.
maxglute · 13m ago
Problem is a 40k car interior feels worse than a 15k Chinese car. The Koreans are trying, but like Samsung, not too hard.
chasd00 · 51m ago
The sweet spot has always been a 1 year old used car with low miles. There’s lots of those for less than or about $25k. Honda, Toyota, and Mazda have models in those ranges that will easily last a decade.
brandall10 · 10m ago
Even better, a 3 year old used car with low miles.
In 2016 I picked up a mint 2013 320i Sport w/ 22k miles on the clock for $18.5k. The sticker on the car was just over $36k. I did have to fly to a relatively remote town (Ogden Utah) and drive it home to San Diego, so that was an extra $320 for the plane ticket/shuttle/gas and 14 hours out of a saturday.
It was almost out of warranty, so pre-purchase I paid a local shop $110 to do a similar inspection to what BMW does for CPO and it only needed brake pads. Sold it for $14.5k w/ 50k on the clock 6 years later. Aside from the brake pads and scheduled maintenance, eventually replaced the tires, so about $2000 in maintenance over that period. Cost of ownership (minus gas/insurance) was about ~$1k per year/5k miles.
Could have held onto it much longer but I was eager to do the nomad thing as covid was clearing up.
freedomben · 44m ago
I've bought a couple of those and never again. They're usually former rental cars and people best the shit out of them. I've had so many stupid things break
aprilthird2021 · 26m ago
I bought a 1 year old used model and it's worked for me for 10 years now. Ymmv. Maybe worth getting a mechanic to look before buying
resoluteteeth · 48m ago
1 year old used cars are inevitably going to get more expensive as new cars get more expensive (or cheaper new cars cease being made)
everdrive · 41m ago
In 2014 I got a very nice and very basic brand new sedan for about $14k. That's not so long ago, but the car market in the US seems to get worse every year. (cost, newer models are bloated and overly-expensive, etc.) My only advice would be to buy now (ideally something used) since I can only imagine things will be even worse in a few years.
zbrozek · 30m ago
I wonder if there's a business model in leasing cars from Mexico to Americans and swapping around once a year to get around the problem of having Mexican plates. Then you can get Chinese cars into America.
nebula8804 · 25m ago
This made me laugh out loud thank you. They will clamp down on this so fast though. If its something that will help the average joe it will never get done but something like this threatens leadership so it will get shut down in record time.
If theres any Chinese entrepreneurs that have a line into their EV companies reading this, use some of that China speed and get on this now. You might as well squeeze out a little profit before they clamp it down! :D
tanh · 49m ago
I am pretty sure these cars still exist in Japan at roughly the same price point. I'm not talking about kei cars, either.
With rebates a 20,000 truck. Who knows what it will cost when it actually comes out. But I love the concept.
QuadmasterXLII · 4h ago
it’s a shame that they’re spending so much of their capital on manufacturer side customizability. An electric vehicle is a firmware update away from being a stick welder already; make the truck one way and ship it with a pair of jumper cables, a box of 6011, and a pallet of tube steel.
mlsu · 8h ago
A car like this in China would cost $12k
No rebates
US automakers are so ridiculously far behind
blacksmith_tb · 8h ago
Also, not a gigantic truck, and no infotainment (or even powered windows!) It'd be a manual transmission if it wasn't an EV.
fwip · 6h ago
Note that those rebates would be entirely killed under the current Trump budget bill [1], so we'll see what happens.
I also love the concept, it's a bunch of things I've been looking for but unable to find in the US market. The final price/availability as well as repairability are going to be the dealmakers.
They don't mention the amount of mandatory additions to the car from government regulations. Obviously not the only factor but it's certainly a factor. Cars now have 6 to 8 airbags, backup cameras, more high strength steel, automatic breaking systems etc etc. I love the safety that those all bring, but it's not free.
999900000999 · 9h ago
We don't want affordable Chinese EVs.
That's the answer here. They can build cars better, cheaper, faster than we can.
Instead Ford wants to sell a 80k SUPER F-250 BIG MANN TRUCK. All for what, you to drive 10 minutes to Walmart, buy groceries and drive back.
The best car is the one you don't own. No payments, insurance, parking tickets.
Unfortunately most American cities are centered around driving. So much money , and space wasted on these multi ton metal boxes. In many places most(much) of the city is literally just parking spaces.
paxys · 8h ago
We do want affordable Chinese EVs, the same way we want Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru (all among the best selling auto manufacturers in the USA every year). You can't buy them because the government and domestic car companies don't want you to.
jfengel · 1h ago
I have never seen the bed of a Cybertruck.
Not a dig at the vehicle; that's a different thing. Rather, I notice that this truck doesn't seem to spend much time as a, ya know, truck.
With other trucks it's less obvious because they don't have a built in bed cover. I suspect many of them also spent very little time trucking, at least here in this suburb. Perhaps it's different in more agricultural areas.
Jach · 28m ago
I've only ever seen one in that mocking picture of trying to fit a motorcycle in it vs. a Kei truck. I still reserve my full judgment though for if I ever get to have extended personal time with one, though I have been soured on the whole thing. The concept was cooler than the final product for sure.
I go back and forth on how much weight to give the "not being used for truck stuff" criticism. (Maybe because I own a small 2006 Ranger that, while sometimes being used for truck stuff, is mostly used for stuff any vehicle can do. I also put on a cheap bed cover for the first time last week...) I think I'm more partial to the "not ever used for truck stuff" criticism -- that makes it more similar to buying powerful PC hardware. If you aren't ever making use of it, what's the point? But if you only use it from time to time, that seems totally fine. Optionality is generally good, especially when you actually use the options, but of course there's a cost-benefit analysis people don't seem to make with modern car financing.
I'd like to see a cybertruck towing a camper in the wild, as that seems to be a thing some of my older relatives do with their big trucks.
defrost · 51m ago
I'm in an agricultural area, have been in and around agriculture and mining for many decades, I can't see anyone buying a cybertruck for any practical reason.
I've seen the offroad performance videos, the cybertruck isn't anything to write home about wrt to either ground clearance or scrabble factor (broken road hill climbing, etc).
Other cheaper vehicles perform as well or better.
The tray area is a nightmare, three side access to tools is good, totally flat tray backs are good, side rails for tie downs are good, ability to custom fit racks for carrying stuff (long lumber, or glass and or panels, etc), etc. are all the kinds of practical choices that dictate a practical utility purchase .. none of these are things at which the cybertruck shines.
clickety_clack · 8h ago
I make pretty good tech money and I can’t imagine spending that much on a car. It would be cheaper to uber everywhere I went.
Gigachad · 1m ago
I've done the math a few times and it just makes no sense to own a car for me. Public transport is the fastest way to get to work, and for everything else I can uber every time PT isn't the best option and still come out cheaper than buying the most budget new car.
marssaxman · 7h ago
Likewise - it's funny to me that $25,000 is cited as an "affordable" price for a car, when that's almost double what I spent on the most expensive car I've ever owned (a Land Rover Discovery II, which was a lovely machine). I cannot imagine what it would feel like to look at a $60,000 price tag and think, "yes, this would be a sensible use of money".
darkmarmot · 35m ago
i am still fine in my used 2012 12k prius.
msgodel · 7h ago
Man I felt bad spending $5k to swap out my used corolla for a used highlander.
interloxia · 7h ago
Weren't they almost 60k in 2025 dollars when they were new?
marssaxman · 6h ago
I suppose they were, but mine was a 2001 model and I bought it in 2007.
dumbledoren · 5h ago
$60,000 is a sensible use of money because the car company investors want their ever-increasing profits.
neom · 1h ago
I've been watching WheelsBoy youtube channel a lot, he covers Chinese cars in China: https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy - I don't know if this is the best source, but it's been eye opening to watch.
paulryanrogers · 8h ago
Cars are a reflection of ones personality here in the Midwest. Some grow out of it or never subscribe to the mentality. It's certainly cheaper to bicycle, weather and health permitting.
Though car driving and ownership are a big cultural phenomenon, especially among men 18-50.
supertrope · 39m ago
I can hear street racing noises from a highway three miles away! I used to think it was just a few blocks away because I could hear it but I looked at a map. A few people install aftermarket exhausts/noise makers critics call "fart cans." After a recent police crackdown the amount of racing noise at night decreased greatly.
blharr · 6h ago
>Weather and health permitting
Environment as well. In terms of "safety" it is unfortunately very risky to bike (or even walk) in my area due to the sprawling roads everywhere. Drivers don't look out for anything other than large boxes, and I've quickly had way too many close calls to consider it useful.
999900000999 · 8h ago
Depends on the man, I’ll admit in my early twenties I meet a few partners by being car free.
I legit took a girl home after I asked her if she knew why the train was late.
In Amsterdam at least one of the train stations has a piano. It becomes a 3rd place were people can make friends and socialize.
We don’t have many 3rd places in the US where you can exist without spending money.
paulryanrogers · 7h ago
Public transportation is seen as only a thing for children and/or the poor, at least in too many of my circles.
Politicians and the public don't seem willing to invest to overcome the chicken and egg problem. Doesn't help that the legacy transport we do have is neglected, further harming it's reputation.
dzhiurgis · 6h ago
Do you have example of places with density similar to US where public transport works well? Australia has some in urban centres, but otherwise car centric. Same in NZ. Elecric bus to my place costs 8x more than driving EV (before it was taxed)
shakna · 4h ago
Whilst I can spiel off complaints, public transport in Australia gets my kid to and from school everyday, and myself to and from work in two different cities, everyday, without being late. (When the union isn't striking).
It does seem to work.
iancmceachern · 5h ago
We drive an F250, and live in San Francisco.
We hardly put any miles on it (maybe 15k a year). To get around locally we ride our bikes mostly here in the city.
We do use it for our small business (essential) and also to to a large RV trailer which we use to live in 2-4 months a year visiting loved ones and just decompressing.
The things people don't usually talk about is the total cost of ownership.
One can buy a new F250 diesel for $80k, drive it for 6 years towing heavy loads and working hard. And sellnit for more than half what they paid for it. During that time the only costs are routine maintenance, no major repair bills.
One can also buy a luxury car or SUV, say a BMW, for the same price and 6 years later it is most certainly not worth half what they paid for it, and they typically paid tens of thousands in repair costs.
The next argument people make is that a big truck is inefficient. The simple fact is my F250 diesel gets the same as your BMW M3. But it can be used for work, and is.
Financially, I would argue that it makes no sense to buy a new vehicle above $50k that isn't a diesel pickup.
tzs · 17m ago
> We hardly put any miles on it (maybe 15k a year)
That's a little more than the average American drives per year.
xbmcuser · 1h ago
Although I agree that Trucks are not needed by majority of the people that buy them in the US. The reason for high truck prices is 25% tariff on imported trucks for the last 50 years ie lack of competition.
999900000999 · 4h ago
You don't have to justify your personal situation to me.
If you feel like buying a 80k truck, that's cool.
The issue with America is the vast majority of truck buyers really can't afford an 80k truck.
This isn't the best source, but it says here the average truck buyer is only making 82k or so.
From experience talking to friends and sales people plenty of folks with 60 to 80k incomes find themselves in 50k plus vehicles.
I suspect for the majority of truck buyers, if credit wasn't as easily available, they'd find alternatives.
The only reason the typical person can buy an 80k truck is they can get a loan.
Let's say their was a hypothetical car loan limit of 1/4th of your annual income. A lot of people would find out really fast they don't need a massive truck.
Manufacturers would in turn adjust accordingly. A 15k car, maybe without a bunch of touch screens, is possible.
This is probably why cars are cheaper in China, credit isn't as available.
caleblloyd · 54m ago
Another (possibly bigger) reason cars are cheaper in China is because their government subsidizes the heck out of BYD and the likes. It would be like if Tesla didn’t have to pay anything to build their factories.
Imagine if we let in the Chinese EVs stacked with the tax credit, you could get a car for 5000$ or less.
iancmceachern · 3h ago
>>"The issue with America is the vast majority of truck buyers really can't afford an 80k truck."
I would say that's not what matters in this discussion (comparing trucks vs cars).
I would also say the same sentence is true for cars, most Americans can't afford 80k cars.
What I am saying is you are not accurate. Most trucks in the US are not 80k trucks bought by suburban folks to buy groceries in. Most trucks are bought by fleets, by small businesses, etc. They're the standard white fleet specs, not the high end trucks. They're bought by farmers, ranchers and drywallers. Most.
Just because you don't hang around in those circles and only see your suburban neighbors and their trucks doesn't mean that's the overall trend.
Everything you highlight here is also true for cars, and worse even.
I'm not justifying anything, I don't owe you $%&#, I am saying you are wrong and giving evidence as to why.
soganess · 4h ago
While you are 100 % right that the MSRP-relative resale value of an F-250 after five years is higher than, say, a 335i (~25% delta in favor of F-250) your five-year cost projections are off. Most cars built in 2025 likely need little maintenance in the first five years (this has been true for a while). Yes even BMWs/Audis. You are also not factoring in the cost of gas, the annoyance of having to park a huge truck in the city, and, of course, the social cost of being that absolute prat who drives an F-250 in a tiny, overcrowded 7×7 grid of a city.
Some things are worth more than money.
EDIT: I should note a "not for work" addendum to the above.
iancmceachern · 3h ago
>>"absolutely prat"
Why the personal insult? Mods is this ok per HN policy?
I use and need it for work, yes big heavy things also need to be done in cities too. I noted this in my original comment. It's very tacky to personally insult a working person for the tools of their trade. You don't like the fact that a plumber needs a plumbing truck? How would a window installer get the windows to the jobsite? How do you bring diesel engines to install in their final locations?
And you are absolutely wrong on the repair of BMWs and especially Audis. Just look at used cars for those brands from a few years ago. You are right on maintenance, but I'm talking about repairs. Things breaking and needing replacement or repair. Anyone who has owned those brands will tell you. Also part prices are a big difference.
If you want a small car buy a Carolla, Camry or a Lexus. I'm not saying buy a big truck.
I'm saying it makes no sense to buy a vehicle over $50k that isn't a diesel pickup, except for "comfort" or "status".
If you don't need one for work, then buy a Camry. They're really nice.
margalabargala · 58m ago
They weren't personally insulting you, they were describing antisocial behavior generally, and reasons why people might be prejudiced against drivers of large trucks.
Prior to that comment, you hadn't said anything indicating you personally partook in that antisocial behavior.
FpUser · 34m ago
>"they were describing antisocial behavior generally"
Well if they're so fucking social, they should start with rich who waste and pollute way way more and buy governments outright.
burnt-resistor · 8h ago
F-450 King Ranch Super Deluxe.. all made from plastic and guaranteed not to last longer than 8 years. Most engines of new vehicles are sleeved and cannot be rebuilt in the spirit of designed for manufacturing and profits > designed for durability.
vovavili · 7h ago
I do want cheap Chinese EVs. I can't buy them because of government regulation.
JKCalhoun · 42m ago
I'd prefer to have cheap U.S. cars ... but I suspect we won't seem them until the threat of cheap Chinese cars becomes a reality.
eitally · 6h ago
You're not wrong, but I think there's another factor, too. (And I drive a 2017 F150)
I would love to sell my truck and get something smaller. But I just got a repair estimate of almost $2500 to replace the from facing camera in my wife's Odyssey, and the Bluetooth stack in my truck has never really worked properly for phone calls. With cars becoming increasingly. "Software defined vehicles" I don't feel comfortable purchasing a $50k+ car that might have software bugs, or may not be supported for over 5-10yrs. I'm currently thinking very seriously that the best options are either to buy used or to lease.
Moreover, I'm thinking the overall percentage of private vehicles that are leased is going to continue to increase as time moves on, until the big mfrs are essentially acting as huge rental fleet operators.
GiorgioG · 43m ago
2016 F-150 here…just keep it. At this point I’m going to run mine into the ground. No way I would spend whatever Ford is asking for nowadays for a new one.
hedora · 17m ago
I’ve got a used lightning, with a 1500 ram and a 1500 gmc before that. The Ford is by far the best truck we’ve owned.
In fact, the other two were so unreliable and underpowered that I’ll never buy a GM or Stellantis (chrysler/dodge/ram/fiat) product again.
Anyway, definitely hold onto the 2016/17 Fords vs switching brands. I’ve driven lower trim line Fords slightly older than that, and they were also way ahead of the newer GM and Ram trucks that we had.
everdrive · 38m ago
Regulations prevent the sale of small, cheap trucks in the US. I'm so sick of "BIG MANN TRUCK" being blamed on ego. The kind small basic of truck you used to be able to buy just doesn't exist any more and it's been regulated out of existence. The Maverick doesn't even stand-in very well for this and Ford can barely keep up with the demand.
msgodel · 7h ago
I'm always a little surprised anyone buys American cars at all. For a while they used to make larger trucks than anyone else did but even that's not really the case anymore, it's all just overpriced garbage with a popular brand.
tengbretson · 8h ago
> comment about how a non-american country has a better approach
> male ego/phalus comment
> car-centric cities
> "N-ton metal box"
I'm 1 square away from a Strong Towns reader bingo. Do you happen to know who invented the concept of jaywalking?
No comments yet
willcipriano · 7h ago
> We don't want affordable Chinese EVs.
If that was true it wouldn't be illegal to sell them.
AlotOfReading · 6h ago
Everything in here matches with my experience in the auto industry, but I don't think it gets the whole truth. Car companies, particularly the American and German brands, make the vast majority of their money from new car buyers and leasers, not the used car market. Over the past few decades, OEMs have focused almost exclusively on serving those customers, to the detriment of virtually everyone else. Those are very different customers than the people who want to buy $25k cars. Worse, even if you do sell that kind of vehicle, it depreciates and goes right back into circulation on the used market competing against the new cars because the customers are ultimately very utilitarian and lack brand loyalty, unlike the higher end customers. You can't even count on those higher end customers to reliably purchase the higher trim models because of the "status" aspects of a cheap car.
It's a tough market that OEMs don't want to be in, so they cede it almost entirely to foreign OEMs that haven't moved upmarket yet. Foreign OEMs are structurally incapable of selling cars at those prices (by design), so the bottom end of the market gets hollowed out to nothing but a few "loss leader" vehicles.
Glawen · 7h ago
Aka how to shoot yourself in the foot and hand over the market to Chinese manufacturer. In Europe, only Renault created a low cost brand (Dacia).
Once chinese brands become commonplace everywhere, tradional carmakers will have a hard time taking back market share. In Europe they closed or are closing the last HCOL factories, killing any remaining brand loyalty.
AJ007 · 36m ago
Yeah, a better title for the article is how western automakers are going to go extinct. Sure the US might decide to block Chinese cars (apparently the EU isn't), but they can't force the rest of the world to buy $65,000 American built cars when the alternatives are less than 1/3rd of that price.
A larger question is how much the cheap Chinese cars are dependent on a long chain of government subsidies from the mines to the local infrastructure and what happens when China's investment driven growth cycle comes to an end. If the solar panels are any comparison, the Chinese automakers are losing a lot of money despite grandiose subsidies.
defrost · 23m ago
The answer to your question is less and less every year with only sales tax exemption remaining as the greatest support provided.
That support did total some US $231 billion over 14 years from 2009 through until 2023.
There are at least two different ways to interpret the data on industrial policy support for EV makers.
China’s trading partners could point to 15 years of sustained regulatory and financial support for domestic producers, which has fundamentally altered the playing field to make it much harder for others to compete in China or anywhere else where Chinese EVs are sold.
By contrast, defenders of China could point out that the data show that subsidies as a percentage of total sales have declined substantially, from over 40% in the early years to only 11.4% in 2023, which reflects a pattern in line with heavier support for infant industries, then a gradual reduction as they mature.
In addition, they could note that the average support per vehicle has fallen from $13,860 in 2018 to just under $4,800 in 2023, which is less than the $7,500 credit that goes to buyers of qualifying vehicles as part of the U.S.’s Inflation Reduction Act.
It would be interesting to compare that to Western and US support for fossil fuel cars with substantial government support of the oil and gas industry.
aprilthird2021 · 23m ago
The sad thing is it'll be a slow death. As American / German / Japanese still hold cultural cachet over Chinese/ Vietnamese cars, the companies will delude themselves into going off a cliff till a new gen comes and doesn't care about that cachet and just cares about price
al_borland · 5h ago
The Subaru Impreza starts just under $25k, and comes standard with their EyeSight system for adaptive cruise control, automatic braking, etc.
bell-cot · 9h ago
Daydream: For types of cars/trucks which are generally unavailable on the American market, tariffs and import restrictions are keep rather modest.
HarHarVeryFunny · 9h ago
Would make sense - why protect a market that no US manufacturer seems to want to support!
Of course the US manufacturers are hoping that you'll just take out a loan, preferably with them (this is how they make their profit - financing and servicing) and buy something far more expensive than you want/need.
mouse_ · 9h ago
Dealership near me has got some 2024-25 model Mitsubishis for like 19k new. They look pretty sweet.
stn8188 · 6h ago
I'm assuming this is the Mirage, which is one of the cars we own for the family (the other is an old Odyssey to fit all the kids). The Mirage is an absolute joy to own: its simple 3cyl engine gets 50mpg if I'm careful. We live in a very rural area (i.e. walking and biking for a big family is impossible and dangerous), so having something economical to drive is a huge help. We drive it any time we aren't taking the whole family somewhere!
Of course in the article, I see the Mirage is noted as discontinued. How frustrating.
The reason the US car industry does not want a $25k car is that the financing opportunities are crap for a car of this low cost.
In the same way that airlines exist to offer you a miles based credit card, the US car dealerships survive by offering you a loan for the car. Or perhaps, a car to go with your structured finance opportunity.
There are 2 big factors at play:
1. Margins. Manufacturers make huge margins on expensive vehicles and very slim margins on cheap vehicles. The numbers differ, but I think even in the lead up to the 2008 crisis automakers had to sell 5-10 "econobox" cars to make the profit they made on one luxury car, SUV, or truck.
2. Normalization of debt. For many Americans, having a monthly car payment in perpetuity is considered acceptable. Car loans have their place and can be used responsibly, but due to marketing, sales tactics, and cultural sensibilities what often ends up happening is that people start from a monthly dollar amount and then work forwards to buy the most expensive vehicle they can, even if it means taking the loan term out to 72 or 84 months. It's also very normal for people to never pay off their car, instead trading in the vehicle after 3-5 years and rolling equity in the loan over to their next car. Obviously, this consumer habit is great for dealers, manufacturers, creditors and buyers of consumer debt, as well as the US Government and investors -- it's just not ideal for the consumers themselves if they're trying to preserve wealth and build savings.
These two factors create an environment increasingly hostile to the cheap entry level car. Consumer demand is low since most don't spend responsibly, and automakers don't really want to make or sell them because the margins are so slim.
I think that really depends on what part of America. At least where I grew up around a bunch of middle class conservatives listening to eg Dave Ramsey (who has other problems IMO) most people think of you as reckless/irresponsible for doing that sort of thing.
And you'd never know until the family divorced and their lifestyle drastically decreases.
Dave Ramsey has to be relatively new because debt was extremely extremely common among conservatives in the US (no idea about liberals didn't live among them)
Cars are a depreciating asset. It usually does not make sense to go into debt to get one
That makes some sense to me, but if the goal is to always have a nice car, doesn't it makes much more sense to lease? The monthly payments will be a few hundred bucks less and you can upgrade every 2-3 years. And from what I understand, leasing agents like to give incentives after your first lease to keep you in the cycle.
Personally, if I were aiming for the most economical option, I'd lease a Nissan Leaf for ~$300/mo.
So while car prices keep going up, people also keep going deeper into debt to buy one they can't afford.
You can blame manufacturers or banks, but ultimately the problem is unchecked consumerism and treating cars as a status symbol, which is sadly pervasive in this country.
It's remarkable in Australia how many people are borrowing and paying much more for them as well.
Driving a Corolla, Mazda 2, Kia Rio or something can save so much money.
These days these are remarkably good cars too.
In 2016 I picked up a mint 2013 320i Sport w/ 22k miles on the clock for $18.5k. The sticker on the car was just over $36k. I did have to fly to a relatively remote town (Ogden Utah) and drive it home to San Diego, so that was an extra $320 for the plane ticket/shuttle/gas and 14 hours out of a saturday.
It was almost out of warranty, so pre-purchase I paid a local shop $110 to do a similar inspection to what BMW does for CPO and it only needed brake pads. Sold it for $14.5k w/ 50k on the clock 6 years later. Aside from the brake pads and scheduled maintenance, eventually replaced the tires, so about $2000 in maintenance over that period. Cost of ownership (minus gas/insurance) was about ~$1k per year/5k miles.
Could have held onto it much longer but I was eager to do the nomad thing as covid was clearing up.
If theres any Chinese entrepreneurs that have a line into their EV companies reading this, use some of that China speed and get on this now. You might as well squeeze out a little profit before they clamp it down! :D
With rebates a 20,000 truck. Who knows what it will cost when it actually comes out. But I love the concept.
No rebates
US automakers are so ridiculously far behind
I also love the concept, it's a bunch of things I've been looking for but unable to find in the US market. The final price/availability as well as repairability are going to be the dealmakers.
[1] https://electrek.co/2025/06/28/republicans-are-trying-kill-7...
That's the answer here. They can build cars better, cheaper, faster than we can.
Instead Ford wants to sell a 80k SUPER F-250 BIG MANN TRUCK. All for what, you to drive 10 minutes to Walmart, buy groceries and drive back.
The best car is the one you don't own. No payments, insurance, parking tickets.
Unfortunately most American cities are centered around driving. So much money , and space wasted on these multi ton metal boxes. In many places most(much) of the city is literally just parking spaces.
Not a dig at the vehicle; that's a different thing. Rather, I notice that this truck doesn't seem to spend much time as a, ya know, truck.
With other trucks it's less obvious because they don't have a built in bed cover. I suspect many of them also spent very little time trucking, at least here in this suburb. Perhaps it's different in more agricultural areas.
I go back and forth on how much weight to give the "not being used for truck stuff" criticism. (Maybe because I own a small 2006 Ranger that, while sometimes being used for truck stuff, is mostly used for stuff any vehicle can do. I also put on a cheap bed cover for the first time last week...) I think I'm more partial to the "not ever used for truck stuff" criticism -- that makes it more similar to buying powerful PC hardware. If you aren't ever making use of it, what's the point? But if you only use it from time to time, that seems totally fine. Optionality is generally good, especially when you actually use the options, but of course there's a cost-benefit analysis people don't seem to make with modern car financing.
I'd like to see a cybertruck towing a camper in the wild, as that seems to be a thing some of my older relatives do with their big trucks.
I've seen the offroad performance videos, the cybertruck isn't anything to write home about wrt to either ground clearance or scrabble factor (broken road hill climbing, etc).
Other cheaper vehicles perform as well or better.
The tray area is a nightmare, three side access to tools is good, totally flat tray backs are good, side rails for tie downs are good, ability to custom fit racks for carrying stuff (long lumber, or glass and or panels, etc), etc. are all the kinds of practical choices that dictate a practical utility purchase .. none of these are things at which the cybertruck shines.
Though car driving and ownership are a big cultural phenomenon, especially among men 18-50.
Environment as well. In terms of "safety" it is unfortunately very risky to bike (or even walk) in my area due to the sprawling roads everywhere. Drivers don't look out for anything other than large boxes, and I've quickly had way too many close calls to consider it useful.
I legit took a girl home after I asked her if she knew why the train was late.
In Amsterdam at least one of the train stations has a piano. It becomes a 3rd place were people can make friends and socialize.
We don’t have many 3rd places in the US where you can exist without spending money.
Politicians and the public don't seem willing to invest to overcome the chicken and egg problem. Doesn't help that the legacy transport we do have is neglected, further harming it's reputation.
It does seem to work.
We hardly put any miles on it (maybe 15k a year). To get around locally we ride our bikes mostly here in the city.
We do use it for our small business (essential) and also to to a large RV trailer which we use to live in 2-4 months a year visiting loved ones and just decompressing.
The things people don't usually talk about is the total cost of ownership.
One can buy a new F250 diesel for $80k, drive it for 6 years towing heavy loads and working hard. And sellnit for more than half what they paid for it. During that time the only costs are routine maintenance, no major repair bills.
One can also buy a luxury car or SUV, say a BMW, for the same price and 6 years later it is most certainly not worth half what they paid for it, and they typically paid tens of thousands in repair costs.
The next argument people make is that a big truck is inefficient. The simple fact is my F250 diesel gets the same as your BMW M3. But it can be used for work, and is.
Financially, I would argue that it makes no sense to buy a new vehicle above $50k that isn't a diesel pickup.
That's a little more than the average American drives per year.
If you feel like buying a 80k truck, that's cool.
The issue with America is the vast majority of truck buyers really can't afford an 80k truck.
This isn't the best source, but it says here the average truck buyer is only making 82k or so.
https://www.myautoconcepts.com/blogdetails?id=4049
From experience talking to friends and sales people plenty of folks with 60 to 80k incomes find themselves in 50k plus vehicles.
I suspect for the majority of truck buyers, if credit wasn't as easily available, they'd find alternatives.
The only reason the typical person can buy an 80k truck is they can get a loan.
Let's say their was a hypothetical car loan limit of 1/4th of your annual income. A lot of people would find out really fast they don't need a massive truck.
Manufacturers would in turn adjust accordingly. A 15k car, maybe without a bunch of touch screens, is possible.
This is probably why cars are cheaper in China, credit isn't as available.
We subsidize our auto industry too.
Imagine if we let in the Chinese EVs stacked with the tax credit, you could get a car for 5000$ or less.
I would say that's not what matters in this discussion (comparing trucks vs cars).
I would also say the same sentence is true for cars, most Americans can't afford 80k cars.
What I am saying is you are not accurate. Most trucks in the US are not 80k trucks bought by suburban folks to buy groceries in. Most trucks are bought by fleets, by small businesses, etc. They're the standard white fleet specs, not the high end trucks. They're bought by farmers, ranchers and drywallers. Most.
Just because you don't hang around in those circles and only see your suburban neighbors and their trucks doesn't mean that's the overall trend.
Everything you highlight here is also true for cars, and worse even.
I'm not justifying anything, I don't owe you $%&#, I am saying you are wrong and giving evidence as to why.
Some things are worth more than money.
EDIT: I should note a "not for work" addendum to the above.
Why the personal insult? Mods is this ok per HN policy?
I use and need it for work, yes big heavy things also need to be done in cities too. I noted this in my original comment. It's very tacky to personally insult a working person for the tools of their trade. You don't like the fact that a plumber needs a plumbing truck? How would a window installer get the windows to the jobsite? How do you bring diesel engines to install in their final locations?
And you are absolutely wrong on the repair of BMWs and especially Audis. Just look at used cars for those brands from a few years ago. You are right on maintenance, but I'm talking about repairs. Things breaking and needing replacement or repair. Anyone who has owned those brands will tell you. Also part prices are a big difference.
If you want a small car buy a Carolla, Camry or a Lexus. I'm not saying buy a big truck.
I'm saying it makes no sense to buy a vehicle over $50k that isn't a diesel pickup, except for "comfort" or "status".
If you don't need one for work, then buy a Camry. They're really nice.
Prior to that comment, you hadn't said anything indicating you personally partook in that antisocial behavior.
Well if they're so fucking social, they should start with rich who waste and pollute way way more and buy governments outright.
I would love to sell my truck and get something smaller. But I just got a repair estimate of almost $2500 to replace the from facing camera in my wife's Odyssey, and the Bluetooth stack in my truck has never really worked properly for phone calls. With cars becoming increasingly. "Software defined vehicles" I don't feel comfortable purchasing a $50k+ car that might have software bugs, or may not be supported for over 5-10yrs. I'm currently thinking very seriously that the best options are either to buy used or to lease.
Moreover, I'm thinking the overall percentage of private vehicles that are leased is going to continue to increase as time moves on, until the big mfrs are essentially acting as huge rental fleet operators.
In fact, the other two were so unreliable and underpowered that I’ll never buy a GM or Stellantis (chrysler/dodge/ram/fiat) product again.
Anyway, definitely hold onto the 2016/17 Fords vs switching brands. I’ve driven lower trim line Fords slightly older than that, and they were also way ahead of the newer GM and Ram trucks that we had.
> male ego/phalus comment
> car-centric cities
> "N-ton metal box"
I'm 1 square away from a Strong Towns reader bingo. Do you happen to know who invented the concept of jaywalking?
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If that was true it wouldn't be illegal to sell them.
It's a tough market that OEMs don't want to be in, so they cede it almost entirely to foreign OEMs that haven't moved upmarket yet. Foreign OEMs are structurally incapable of selling cars at those prices (by design), so the bottom end of the market gets hollowed out to nothing but a few "loss leader" vehicles.
Once chinese brands become commonplace everywhere, tradional carmakers will have a hard time taking back market share. In Europe they closed or are closing the last HCOL factories, killing any remaining brand loyalty.
A larger question is how much the cheap Chinese cars are dependent on a long chain of government subsidies from the mines to the local infrastructure and what happens when China's investment driven growth cycle comes to an end. If the solar panels are any comparison, the Chinese automakers are losing a lot of money despite grandiose subsidies.
That support did total some US $231 billion over 14 years from 2009 through until 2023.
You can see more at: https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dil... (June 2024)
It would be interesting to compare that to Western and US support for fossil fuel cars with substantial government support of the oil and gas industry.Of course the US manufacturers are hoping that you'll just take out a loan, preferably with them (this is how they make their profit - financing and servicing) and buy something far more expensive than you want/need.
Of course in the article, I see the Mirage is noted as discontinued. How frustrating.