In-person "debate" is probably a really bad vehicle for truth-finding to begin with.
Surely if disagreement emerges about something: it makes sense to "debate" in some sense of the word. But only insofar as that's indistinguishable from "trying to reach a mutual conclusion."
The other use of that word — what we see in televised debates or these little Kirklike pop up stands — is where both sides are predisposed/rooted in some opinion and are instead vying over an audience (real or imagined). It's a social exercise masquerading as an intellectual one. Which, to be fair, is maybe an exercise worth engaging for a prospective president, but that nuance is lost in how we treat them.
ameliaquining · 34m ago
I agree that bad-faith weaponization of discourse norms is a real problem these days. Unfortunately, unapologetic closed-mindedness is also a real problem these days. I would like to see more analysis that acknowledges both of these points and carefully considers how to thread the needle. Masnick obviously means well and is making reasonable points, but I think we're past the point in the discourse where it's possible to make progress while bringing up just one side of the tradeoff.
tremon · 30m ago
Isn't both-sidesing also a bad-faith weaponization of discourse? Make your own argument rather than demanding someone else makes it for you.
bawolff · 7m ago
I think its fine to be unconvinced by something without necessarily having a better argument.
Usually when people say "both siding", its more refering to an ad hominem falacy where someone tries to counter an argument by pointing to something bad the other side does that is separate (and hence irrelavent) to the original argument. I dont think that is what the person who you are responding to is doing because what they are saying is directly applicable to the issue at hand.
evanjrowley · 6m ago
>Isn't both-sidesing also a bad-faith weaponization of discourse?
Great question. Are there rational explanations for why both-sidesing/whataboutism is bad, backed up with evidence, and a comparative analysis against explanations that claim it is good?
AnimalMuppet · 6m ago
I think that closed-mindedness is the issue. I think bad-faith weaponization of discourse is closed-mindedness that wears a disguise. "No, really, I'm a reasonable person!" The unapologetically closed-minded at least is honest.
So I see the axis between the two as one of honesty, not one of closed-mindedness. The actual problem is to move both of them to a more open-minded position, not to balance honest vs. dishonest.
> They earn legitimacy through evidence, peer review, and sustained engagement with reality.
Someone is trying to talk about the marketplace of ideas without reasonably engaging with Mill[1]. The positing of an idea being viable if and only if passing "peer review" is beyond ridiculous from a purely Millian standpoint. In his own words[2]:
> ...though the silenced opinion be an error, it may, and very commonly does, contain a portion of truth; and since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied.
I agree that CK was a political grifter (e.g. someone that found great wealth by partaking in inflammatory speech), but the marketplace of ideas allows for people like him to engage in any dialog he pleases. After all, TMZ does the same thing. Tabloids do the same thing. Tons of podcasts do the same thing. Hasan Piker, Destiny, Piers Morgan, Bill O'Reilly, and Alex Jones all do it, too. I may not agree with Charlie Kirk's politics or with his rhetorical methods, but I'll defend his right of free speech to the death.
> It requires shared standards of evidence, mutual respect, and actual expertise on the topics being discussed.
No it doesn't. This is a carefully-crafted contingency to ensure that you always have the higher ground via: "you're not an expert" (when experts can be, and sometimes are, wrong) or "you don't have the same standard or evidence as me" (when standards of evidence are often contextual).
If we define truth as "Whatever a majority happens to agree with" and the marketplace of ideas as a contest to create truth by building a majority consensus, then you're correct.
If we define truth as something real, and something that we determine based on evidence and correspondence with reality, then you absolutely need some shared epistemological standards for what constitutes evidence and correspondence. I'm not sure if you need peer review for everything, but building expertise in those epistemological standards and approaches _is_ a requirement for well functioning marketplace of ideas, especially if our goal is to develop and understand the truth.
This is distinct from free speech -- I wouldn't want to impose restrictions on one's ability to speak, but that's not the same as saying all speech is equally valid in the pursuit of truth.
Lucent · 16m ago
Rather than "hurting America," Crossfire was the highest form of political debate America could suffer before retreating into info bubbles.
AlexandrB · 8m ago
Still better than "educate yourself", or "do better", which is what you often get when you start to ask questions of someone proclaiming extreme left wing ideas.
Edit: Also, what's the deal with calling everyone a "grifter"? I see no evidence that Charlie Kirk was insincere about what he believed, where's the "grifting"? Isn't any kind of political activity for pay "grifting" by this standard?
damnesian · 9m ago
>When you agree to debate someone pushing long-debunked conspiracy theories or openly hateful ideologies, you’re implicitly suggesting that their position deserves equal consideration alongside established facts and expert analysis.
Oh good, then my usual strategy of completely ignoring these types is the correct response.
rolph · 35m ago
AKA "come at me bro"
"Kirk perfected this grift. As a recent detailed analysis of one of Kirk’s debates demonstrates, when a student showed up prepared with nuanced, well-researched arguments, Kirk immediately tried pivoting to culture war talking points and deflection tactics. When debaters tried to use Kirk’s own standards against him, he shifted subjects entirely. The goal was never understanding or persuasion—it was generating content for social media distribution."
gjsman-1000 · 24m ago
- According to an unapologetically left wing perspective on what happened. That doesn't mean even a word of that is true, any more than a word of what Kirk said was true.
Who is to say whether the college student's positions were actually nuanced? Is well-researched just "agreed with my perspective" or a fact?
(Edit: I missed the hyperlink somehow, point still remains this is an interpretation dance.)
Regardless of whether he was grifting or not, he still didn't deserve what happened to him. Nobody apart from serious criminals or warlords deserve that. He was neither.
Why not just embarrass him in a viral stunt. Nobody even tried to do that. They leaped all the way from 0 to 11 by shooting him dead.
IAmBroom · 11m ago
You are complaining that the mentally ill assassin did not used measured steps to redress grievances?
gjsman-1000 · 10m ago
Who is to say they were mentally ill? Major left wing streamers openly were calling for violence before it happened. TechDirt's position conveniently ignores this. Kirk being a charlatan, even if that were true, is small potatoes.
TechDirt is unapologetically, wildly left wing, so of course calling the opposition "trolls" who "weaponize" the "marketplace of ideas" is nothing but a theatrical self-righteous take; at best a pot calling the kettle black, at worst a complete lack of self-awareness.
jgalt212 · 27m ago
> gotcha questions specifically designed to enrage inexperienced college students
Fair enough, but there are those who won't even engage with those ill-prepared to counter their ideas.
Surely if disagreement emerges about something: it makes sense to "debate" in some sense of the word. But only insofar as that's indistinguishable from "trying to reach a mutual conclusion."
The other use of that word — what we see in televised debates or these little Kirklike pop up stands — is where both sides are predisposed/rooted in some opinion and are instead vying over an audience (real or imagined). It's a social exercise masquerading as an intellectual one. Which, to be fair, is maybe an exercise worth engaging for a prospective president, but that nuance is lost in how we treat them.
Usually when people say "both siding", its more refering to an ad hominem falacy where someone tries to counter an argument by pointing to something bad the other side does that is separate (and hence irrelavent) to the original argument. I dont think that is what the person who you are responding to is doing because what they are saying is directly applicable to the issue at hand.
Great question. Are there rational explanations for why both-sidesing/whataboutism is bad, backed up with evidence, and a comparative analysis against explanations that claim it is good?
So I see the axis between the two as one of honesty, not one of closed-mindedness. The actual problem is to move both of them to a more open-minded position, not to balance honest vs. dishonest.
Someone is trying to talk about the marketplace of ideas without reasonably engaging with Mill[1]. The positing of an idea being viable if and only if passing "peer review" is beyond ridiculous from a purely Millian standpoint. In his own words[2]:
> ...though the silenced opinion be an error, it may, and very commonly does, contain a portion of truth; and since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied.
I agree that CK was a political grifter (e.g. someone that found great wealth by partaking in inflammatory speech), but the marketplace of ideas allows for people like him to engage in any dialog he pleases. After all, TMZ does the same thing. Tabloids do the same thing. Tons of podcasts do the same thing. Hasan Piker, Destiny, Piers Morgan, Bill O'Reilly, and Alex Jones all do it, too. I may not agree with Charlie Kirk's politics or with his rhetorical methods, but I'll defend his right of free speech to the death.
> It requires shared standards of evidence, mutual respect, and actual expertise on the topics being discussed.
No it doesn't. This is a carefully-crafted contingency to ensure that you always have the higher ground via: "you're not an expert" (when experts can be, and sometimes are, wrong) or "you don't have the same standard or evidence as me" (when standards of evidence are often contextual).
[1] https://web.uncg.edu/dcl/courses/vicecrime/m3/part1.asp
[2] https://socialsci.libretexts.org/Courses/Western_Washington_...
If we define truth as something real, and something that we determine based on evidence and correspondence with reality, then you absolutely need some shared epistemological standards for what constitutes evidence and correspondence. I'm not sure if you need peer review for everything, but building expertise in those epistemological standards and approaches _is_ a requirement for well functioning marketplace of ideas, especially if our goal is to develop and understand the truth.
This is distinct from free speech -- I wouldn't want to impose restrictions on one's ability to speak, but that's not the same as saying all speech is equally valid in the pursuit of truth.
Edit: Also, what's the deal with calling everyone a "grifter"? I see no evidence that Charlie Kirk was insincere about what he believed, where's the "grifting"? Isn't any kind of political activity for pay "grifting" by this standard?
Oh good, then my usual strategy of completely ignoring these types is the correct response.
"Kirk perfected this grift. As a recent detailed analysis of one of Kirk’s debates demonstrates, when a student showed up prepared with nuanced, well-researched arguments, Kirk immediately tried pivoting to culture war talking points and deflection tactics. When debaters tried to use Kirk’s own standards against him, he shifted subjects entirely. The goal was never understanding or persuasion—it was generating content for social media distribution."
Who is to say whether the college student's positions were actually nuanced? Is well-researched just "agreed with my perspective" or a fact?
(Edit: I missed the hyperlink somehow, point still remains this is an interpretation dance.)
No comments yet
Why not just embarrass him in a viral stunt. Nobody even tried to do that. They leaped all the way from 0 to 11 by shooting him dead.
https://x.com/Rightanglenews/status/1966264506486853810
Fair enough, but there are those who won't even engage with those ill-prepared to counter their ideas.