Family of MSFT employee who died warn tech companies not to overwork workers

80 christhecaribou 68 8/31/2025, 4:22:38 PM padailypost.com ↗

Comments (68)

kelseyfrog · 3h ago
Companies have no morals. They only respond to profit.

Abolish the overtime exemption for computer systems analysts, computer programmers, and software engineers. Make it unprofitable to extract labor until someone dies. All other actions are impotent.

majormajor · 3h ago
Removing overtime exemptions (across the board, not just for software) seems like a clear winner on many axes.

* Folks working more can have direct immediate compensation for it, vs handwavy promises of maybe future promotions or stock option rewards

* Creates jobs by lowering incentives to just over-work the people you already have

* Spreads out the income tax load by creating more paid labor out of thin air to get the same amount of total work done - better to have that marginal change in the average person's pocketbooks and income tax than tax-sheltered locations for corporations or the highly-wealthy

theamk · 2h ago
How is this going to be enforced? Does that mean everyone has to fill timesheets all the time? I've worked in placed with timesheets and without them, and I liked latter ones much better.

Not to mention that even if timesheets were used, they provide no guarantees. We always had to get management permission to put overtime in, but no one really knew how much time we worked - especially with a possibility of remote work.

This can only be fixed by pervasive monitoring, and IMHO this leads to a very unpleasant workspace.

ItsHarper · 16m ago
I think it can be solved with timesheets and trusting that your employees are filing them out reasonably accurately.
martin-t · 2h ago
How about instead abolishing privately owned companies?

Most western countries are democracies because people got fed up of being exploited by dictators (sometimes called "kings"), removed them and setup a system in which they elect who makes the decisions. This system has issues but is less bad than dictatorship.

Yet, companies kept their hierarchical power structures.

Workers should decide who makes the decisions. If they don't wanna invest time into selling their product, they hire a salesman. If they want somebody to make long term projections, plan what gets worked on and communicates with other teams, they hire an assistant. And they decide how much he gets paid according to how much value he actually brings them.

Managers should be assistants.

ThrowawayR2 · 54m ago
Anyone is free to create a worker-controlled, worker-owned business anytime they want. There are plenty of examples anytime the question comes up. In light of this, where is the need to abolish privately owned companies?
zahlman · 2h ago
Hierarchy is not dictatorship, and most small groups of people doing productive (in the literal sense of creating a marketable product) work would never get off the ground like this for a wide variety of reasons.
martin-t · 1h ago
> Hierarchy is not dictatorship

Sure, the difference if whether the hierarchy is determined from the top or bottom. Top leads to unfair benefits for the top layer. This is called exploitation.

> wide variety of reasons

Can you give me examples?

sekai · 2h ago
> How about instead abolishing privately owned companies?

We tried that in my country for about 50 years, it didn’t work out.

martin-t · 2h ago
Are you referring to communism? Because that was all about central control - the exact opposite. It was about as cooperative as countries with "democratic" in name are actually democratic.

Don't let a bad implementation ruin a good idea. Instead, look at what specific ways the implementation fails to learn for next time.

whobre · 1h ago
> Don't let a bad implementation ruin a good idea.

It would certainly help to see at least one good implementation of the “good idea”

martin-t · 54m ago
Worker cooperatives:

- A bunch of examples here: https://old.reddit.com/r/cooperatives/comments/p23rxr/what_a...

- Some more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership

- Oxide computer company - idk how exactly the ownership works but AFAIK all workers except sales have the same salary.

- The early idSoftware AFAIK worked similarly with all 4 core gamedevs getting paid the same

Note that nothing says everyone has to get paid the same, it just ends up happening in some examples.

geor9e · 2h ago
There should be a name for this sort of communal economic system
sokoloff · 2h ago
I wonder if it’s ever been tried and, if so, how those economies and populations are doing as compared to the exploitive systems that Microsoft and FAANG workers are forced to endure.
9rx · 1h ago
Yes, communalism (that's the name, for those who were wondering) has been tried. In the USA, the Hutterites are one such example. They are generally regarded as doing very well economically.

The more interesting question is: Can communalism work without the community having a deep attachment to the idea? The Hutterites achieve that through religion, but if you threw a group of random people together into a similar economic situation without some kind of strong belief system would they endure or would it quickly devolve back to what we see in the broader economy?

martin-t · 1h ago
Did you notice how communism was always about central control with only superficial or absolutely no elections?

Did you notice I specifically said decisions should be made democratically?

Are those two not in direct conflict?

Please, stop pattern matching, and actually consider what I wrote.

No comments yet

nkrisc · 2h ago
I think there are worthwhile, incremental steps to take before it comes to that.
martin-t · 1h ago
Can you expand on that?
majormajor · 2h ago
If you're a worker with a bad boss you need other options to leave for and go to.

Let's have MORE companies, not fewer.

Put in strong escalating taxes to incentivize cooperation between small companies instead of bowing to the math that encourages consolidation otherwise.

But if there's no private ownership, how would the different companies in the market get created and exist?

martin-t · 1h ago
> bad boss

It's not (just) about a bad boss. It's about somebody being in a position of power who captures the entire value you produce (sales, IP, patents) and decided what fraction out of it you deserve.

> But if there's no private ownership, how would the different companies in the market get created and exist?

I don't see the problem. Every company starts with just a few people, maybe some machines, maybe some real estate. The issue starts when these people call themselves "founders" and everybody else becomes an "employee"[0].

Even though they are all doing the same work, employees get paid per unit of work, founders capture the remaining value produced. And then they hire "managers" who should be there to help workers be more productive but instead end up serving their own goals (see the Gervais principle).

And yes:

1) the founders took some risk in starting the business. They should get rewarded based on the amount of risk and their investment. Not in perpetuity.

2) some companies need a large up-front investment. Similarly, the investory should get rewarded based on invested amount and risk, not by owning a large chunk of the company in perpetuity.

Key point: as time goes on, the amount of work done by regular "working class" people completely outstrips the initial investment. The reward should go to people doing the actual work.

[0]: literally meaning "person being used"

nicbou · 2h ago
This has been attempted multiple times and the results were disastrous.
martin-t · 1h ago
A dictator deciding that every village needs to produce X amount of steel instead of actually harvesting their crops and them millions of people dying is exactly the opposite of what I described.

RMS said whenever he promoted software freedom in the US, everybody pattern matched on communism and he had to explain the difference between voluntary and compulsory. This is the same problem.

This is related: https://habitatchronicles.com/2004/04/you-cant-tell-people-a...

nicbou · 33m ago
I meant cooperatives and other structures at a lower scale. Stalinism was not the only attempts at collectivisation.
OJFord · 2h ago
Companies didn't 'keep' hierarchical power structures, companies emerged exactly from that separation of industry and state.
martin-t · 1h ago
One theory I read is that historically states got bigger only up to the limit of their ability to manage the land and force people to pay taxes.

I don't know if it's right or wrong (and to what extent, most natural systems are complex with a multitude of factors influencing them) but I can easily imagine a similar principle applying to companies.

If you wanna expand by starting an office in the next town over, you need a way to communicate with it, otherwise it's just a separate business with a cash injection to start.

So you have a point.

But the core issue stands - the power hire/fire people, determine their salary and also capture their entire economic output leads to a power imbalance.

twoodfin · 2h ago
hn on US holiday weekends is a riot.
martin-t · 1h ago
I am not from the US but this comment is rude and not constructive.
firesteelrain · 3h ago
The sad part in all of this is that Microsoft likely had no policy that required him to work this much and yet the Microsoft cultural pressure combined with H1B unknowns drove him to not take care of himself and apply immense amounts of undue pressure. Managers need to be aware of this and question why their employees feel the need to work this much. Either hire more or coach the employees not to burn out.
nikolayasdf123 · 3h ago
> H1B unknowns

this. most countries have similar policies. been there, seen so many others going through this in UK, USA, Japan, Korea, Singapore. it really damages your life.

to everyone, check other countries (Portugal, Thailand, Japan) that give you residency for years and allow to work remotely

don't let your employer hold you and your family a hostage with your legal status

javierluraschi · 2h ago
That would be nice, but if you want to immigrate, that’s the current deal.
robofanatic · 3h ago
It's most likely the immediate manager in this case, who probably knows the H1B and green card situation very well, especially for Indians. Unfortunately it's become very common to exploit them.
javierluraschi · 2h ago
I remember being so stressed on an immigration visa, if you don’t perform well and get fired, you also get deported.
paxys · 3h ago
> Microsoft likely had no policy that required him to work this much

They do have these policies written down: bi-annual performance reviews, stack ranking, PIPs.

PretzelPirate · 1h ago
You're implying that he was under performing, and therefore felt the pressure to avoid a bad review and the resulting PIP.

We don't have enough information to support that.

Bi-annual performance reviews themselves aren't a bad thing that force overwork.

If he had a history of good performance reviews (100% or higher on average), the risk of getting a PIP would be very low.

Microsoft stopped stack ranking years ago.

I don't think we should speculate on people's behavior or how they aligned with company policies, because we might accidentally be insulting this man.

firesteelrain · 1h ago
I didn’t take his comment that way of which GP replied to me. I took it as sarcasm. In that, GP was saying it like “Yea but they found time to make these policies…”

That’s how I read it

ronbenton · 2h ago
Microsoft’s continuous firings over the past few years has put a tremendous amount of pressure on employees to demonstrate value. I have observed H1B holders especially affected by this pressure as getting laid off in this economy may well result in getting kicked out of the country. Pretty shameful stuff.
i7l · 2h ago
Shameful yes, but entirely expected from corporations that only care about profits. Sorry, shareholder value.
ronbenton · 1h ago
No doubt. They’ll only care about an employee dropping dead from stress if it causes enough negative press to affect shareholder value.
cmkcyanmag · 3h ago
This is horrible.

Nearly as horrifying are all of the people that bust their asses because they care and don’t want to lose their jobs, then the managers and/or companies who’ve come to expect that fire them when they burn out, after they’ve amassed health problems, and they haven’t spent any time in career-related training nor networked with others to find something else.

Maksadbek · 3h ago
The sad part is that no one forces you to work that hard. You're free to say NO! and work less, even this will results being laid off. Only during 1:1s your manager may highlight that deadline is soon and would be great if the project would be delivered on time, and little hint about a promo. But you set goals and force yourself to do more, single night this less sleep doesn't hurt anyone. Then there are more such nights of coding and you feel barely alive. 90% work is done, only very little left to finish. And then bam!

Upd:

I didn’t mean that this is ok, I’m for workers rights.

blitzar · 3h ago
> The sad part is that no one forces you to work that hard.

You are free to be poor, broke and homeless.

We really need a management class that doesn't insist on continuing the cycle of abuse on their underlings.

stackskipton · 3h ago
>We really need a management class that doesn't insist on continuing the cycle of abuse on their underlings.

This won't happen. Your manager puts pressure on you, they get pressure from their manager and so on until it reaches the CEO who might be getting pressure from investors/board.

Only fix is regulations from the government which seems to be a curse word by many posters on this site.

haswell · 2h ago
History is filled with people saying “this won’t happen”, only for that thing to happen.

Culture evolves and changes. What is acceptable in a culture evolves and changes with it.

Be the change you want to see, apply steady pressure, speak up when the opportunity arises, debate people who see things differently, and with time, many things can happen.

Most progress is hard-won.

stackskipton · 2h ago
This is like saying I can fix global warming by recycling better and going vegan. You are not wrong but it's also like trying to stop a flood with few sandbags.

I've had managers who tried. None of them lasted at these companies that did not care. They were politely told they were not meeting expectations and since they had mortgages and other stuff, they took a hint and moved on.

Again, this fight is political and not corporate. Make tech workers hourly and this will stop. There will also be plenty of tech workers who will fight against this tooth and nail.

haswell · 1h ago
> This is like saying I can fix global warming by recycling better and going vegan.

I can't agree. I don't think anyone who is diligent about recycling or making environmentally conscious food choices believes it will fix global warming. But doing the things that we can is still important for changing culture over time.

If you're a young person growing up in a home that thinks about these things responsibly, the hope is that more people reaching adult-hood will think about the world through that lens. Is it enough? No. Is it still critical? I think so.

> I've had managers who tried. None of them lasted at these companies that did not care.

I've worked at places where management did not behave in the way you describe. The point being that such places exist, and such an outcome is not so impossible.

One way to guarantee things will not change is to do nothing.

9rx · 2h ago
> Only fix is regulations from the government

Problem is that government is the very same people you just spoke of. If they had the collective will to change things, they could just do it. But as they lack the collective will to see change, government can't change either. I believe they call this the stag hunt dilemma.

toomuchtodo · 3h ago
Workers need organizing and unions. If the policy is voluntary and subject to change at someone’s whim, it doesn’t exist.
layer8 · 3h ago
The implication that the only choices are either working yourself to death or becoming broke and homeless, is ridiculous.

I’m all for workers’ rights, though.

AstroBen · 2h ago
..save money..

Why are you putting yourself in a position where you're forced to find work as fast as possible or you'll be homeless?

For all but the people on the lowest incomes or those with terrible luck this is a solvable problem

martin-t · 2h ago
How about removing the hierarchical power structure entirely. The west claims people are all equal and then they happily slave for cents while their "bosses" make dollars.

Worker cooperatives are to corporations what democracies are to dictatorships.

9rx · 2h ago
> How about removing the hierarchical power structure entirely.

We, at least those of us in the software industry, tried that. If you look closely, that's what Agile was all about. The associated Twelve Principles of Agile Software outlines what needs to be considered by developers when there isn't a "boss" to oversee operations.

But I'm sure you know how that turned out in practice: The power structure quickly jumped on usurping the name and bastardized it into something that gave them even more power.

javierluraschi · 2h ago
No you can’t, the system is setup to make you work that hard. Their compensation policy is based on rewarding disproportionally the top performers…

So if you can work 10% more than your peers, you get not 10% bonus but rather 30%-100% more. So it makes business sense to put the extra 10%, until everyone is working at 110% and then again, adding an extra 10% pays off, rinse release, death spiral.

The compensation model is pure evil.

9rx · 2h ago
> So it makes business sense to put the extra 10%

Does it actually? I'd buy that it makes silly arbitrary emotion sense to bask in the nonsensical feelings about an even bigger number. The actual business case is much less clear. There is obviously an opportunity cost associated with that extra 10% and 30-100% is not necessarily the best opportunity. I suspect it is often not.

pixelatedindex · 2h ago
Or, you can just be happy getting the lower end of the bonus. It’s not like the pay and RSU is peanuts. Or work just enough to be in the middle of the bell curve. I put in the work to be in the top part earlier but it is absolutely not worth it, they will lay you off anyway.
9rx · 2h ago
> The sad part is that no one forces you to work that hard.

Maybe I've been farming for too long, but my brain, at least, is wired to push until completion and until things are done it will consume me. If you're going to be up all night ruminating about it, you may as well actually work on it.

Of course, in farming you get a nice long break after you've pushed yourself hard. I've never worked at Microsoft, but I suspect, given what I've seen elsewhere, that as soon as it is done it's already on to the next thing, never giving workers a chance to stop for a while.

robofanatic · 2h ago
> You're free to say NO!

It gets complicated really fast if you add decades of temporary visa status to it.

JCM9 · 2h ago
Big tech companies will take every once of energy and time you give them. With H1Bs it can be horrible as they threaten firing folks that will often have to upend and leave the country if they stop working there. By most standards it’s almost indentured servitude.

As much as they say they care about employees, honestly they don’t. It’s important to draw a line and say no. These companies would dump you tomorrow and not think twice about it. Work hard and have fun, but remember they call it “compensation” for a reason. Don’t let a company you don’t own be your life… that never works out well in the long run.

djmips · 2h ago
For anyone out there who's in the same situation, please don't work when you're sick - that's when you're the most vulnerable. Over my career, I've known two otherwise healthy individuals who continued to press despite having the flu and both lost their lives.
kyleee · 1h ago
They literally died while working with the flu?
horns4lyfe · 3h ago
The issues around H1B visas are ruining American work culture and have been for some time. TBH, it’s already captured and I think it’s too late to fix it
nikolayasdf123 · 3h ago
get visa in countries that allow remote work. Portugal, Thailand, China now issue good vias that let you work for a company anywhere in the world and stay many years in the country, or start your own business.

don't let your employer keep you and your family hostage with your legal status

jimbohn · 2h ago
But that's exactly the point of those visas! It's all about leverage. I truly hope that one day, centuries from now, we will look at the fact that people working for the richest man in the world had to poo in bags to work harder and faster with disgust
javcasas · 3h ago
There was this meme I read somewhere:

"Here is a button. If you press it, you get $50.000, but someone you don't know dies. Will you press it?

Some people never press it. Some people press it once, maybe twice. The billionaires press it as fast as they can."

This time we got to know one of the victims, but definitely all those projects he was working on generated so much value for the shareholders.

LaserDiscMan · 3h ago
That meme is likely a reference to “Button, Button” a short story by Richard Matheson that was later adapted into a Twilight Zone episode and the 2009 movie “The Box”
djmips · 2h ago
Temporarily embarrassed billionaires downvoting right now.
twilo · 3h ago
I dunno I’ve been seeing more of these stories ever since sars2 started circulating but it’s probably “just stress”
andai · 2h ago
Hush now. I come here to numb my emotions, not contemplate death.
OutOfHere · 3h ago
The more you work, the more you will have to work. They will exploit you that much more.

Insufficient sleep is very bad for the heart. It is critically important for long-term health to to leave work on the dot at 5 pm, then get some exercise done in the evening if not in the very early morning. Also, stop relying on fast food for meals.

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