At this point I'm firmly of the opinion that "leak this 10 digit code and anyone on the planet can call me relentlessly" is just a broken model. Maybe that worked better when the calls carried a significant cost, but clearly the scammers are able to do this sort of thing at scale.
In practice of course, my phone is 100% permanently in "do not disturb" mode and does not ring at all unless I've added you to my contact list. Which means the scammer, already pretending to live in small town rural USA (where they most certainly are not) has to correctly guess the number of one of my relatives before my pocket actually rings. It also means I'm unreachable for anything actually important that isn't in my contact list. That's an annoying price.
I'm not sure what the correct end solution is, but the current solution seems to be very broken.
ryandrake · 11m ago
Imagine if the concept of a phone call did not exist. We still have these computers in our pockets, but without the history of the telephone system.
Then, one day, an app developer thought: Wouldn't it be cool if there was an app that would interrupt what the user was doing, play a sound, vibrate the device, and put up a full-screen dialog, that this all could be activated remotely by any other device by simply typing in a short numeric code, and that if the recipient pushed a button, the remote attacker could send audio data and activate the recipient's microphone? Most app stores would classify this as malware, yet here we are today with devices that all have built-in apps that do exactly this, and only because of how normalized the legacy idea of a "phone call" is.
mzajc · 3m ago
> Every app store that exists would classify this as malware
Considering Facebook ([0] and [1] to name a few) is still available, I think that's a pretty high bar to clear.
That‘s a great example of how technology can change the rules. In the era of rotary phones hardly anyone would have felt the need to describe it that way. But nowadays it‘s appropriate.
SilverElfin · 1h ago
I get relentless text and phone spam calls - both robotic and with humans - from just a few voice over Internet platforms. Bandwidth.com, Neutral Tandem, and ALL the brands associated with Sinch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinch_AB) like Inteliquent. Many of these companies got cease and desist orders in the past from the FTC. It didn’t help anything. We need to see them fined, shut down, and executives jailed.
Spooky23 · 12m ago
If you post here, you are probably in tech, be careful what you wish for. We’re in an era where we are doing a modern Mussolini state. We’re turning the unlimited power of DOJ on elected officials for minor paperwork inconsistencies.
When someone has to pay, it’s alot easier to frog march some shitbird engineer to a dank prison than a corporate executive.
charliebwrites · 1h ago
How would one discover which VOIP providers are the source of calls?
These are all platforms with many different products built but others on top of them. Shutting down all abuse is a cat and mouse game and not something they can "just do" if given tighter rules
coldpie · 1h ago
This seems solvable. Put the person most closely traceable to the source of the spam in jail, like a form of KYC laws. If you can't identify the actual human who is causing you to put spam into the network, or that person is outside of your country's jurisdiction, then you are the one who goes to jail. If you don't want to go to jail, then don't accept calls from someone you can't point the finger at.
edm0nd · 1h ago
Onvoy VOIP numbers are rife with scammers using them (Sinch).
Really sad how these rules do nothing to stop them
monksy · 41m ago
Google voice does operate on bandwidth.com btw.
Linkd · 1h ago
uhhh I use Bandwidth at high volume for non-spammy reasons in my app. Please give me a heads up before they're shut down :P
reactordev · 1h ago
Shut one down, another pops up in its place.
klipklop · 1h ago
Not if we actually put the people financing these companies in prison.
homeonthemtn · 1h ago
Ok shut that one down too.
AnimalMuppet · 1h ago
Shut that one down and jail the execs too. The number of people willing to take that chance is finite; it is more finite when the penalty is seen to be consistently applied.
0xTJ · 31m ago
This is why executives need to be held personally responsible when they direct a company to wilfully, blatantly, and repeatedly disregard laws to the detriment of society. These are people who should be in prison for a time, and barred from serving as an officer of a corporation for more time after that. Eventually people get the message; you don't get to break laws just because you hide behind the name of a company.
SilverElfin · 1h ago
Sinch just keeps acquiring one company after the other and turning them into the new spam channel. Weirdly the only responsible player seems to be Twilio. The others refuse to identify the spammers that are their customers, and keep saying it’s not their responsibility since they’re a “wholesaler” (their words).
singpolyma3 · 1h ago
Twilio has historically been a customer of these other companies, so not really at the same level. Though that's been changing recently
epanchin · 1m ago
It’s important to make it clear to Americans that this problem is mostly solved in other countries. It should be possible to end this tomorrow in the US.
Spam calls in the UK for example, are rare. All of the spam calls I get are from my US desk number.
godelski · 43m ago
On a side note, today and yesterday I've been bombarded with spam calls. Even got one while writing this comment. All of which have my same area code, which is for a location I haven't live at for over 15 years. No voice mail, nothing. It's not even this bad around election time.
Btw, if you haven't already, you can sign up for the FCC's Do Not Call list[0]. While obviously this isn't going to solve everything, it does make it illegal for legitimate companies to call you. Absent this incident, it did appear to have a significant effect in reducing spam calls when I signed up years ago. Also, here's some info about junk mail[1]. It costs about $6 and lasts 10 years.
The do not call list seems to be a "Spam me, you brute" list.
In the beginning, they seemed to take their job seriously, but I doubt that has been the case for many years.
Right after SHAKEN/STIR was passed, I got zero spoofed calls. I did get a few robocalls, but they weren't spoofed.
For a month or so. So that shows the problem can be solved, legislatively.
Then, they started coming back, and now, almost every call I get, is spoofed. This includes some legit ones.
Also, legit callers should keep in mind that the autodialer companies they employ, might also moonlight as spammers, so they get blacklisted. I have had quite a number of legit calls get listed as spam.
Cynically, I feel as if politicians are unwilling to get tough on these, because they (or their proxies) use them. That seems to be both sides of the aisle.
MisterTea · 18m ago
Funny, Today I received TEN spam calls. Each had about half an hour in between, from various numbers and area codes. I have never received that many spam calls ever.
sgc · 9m ago
I have received that many on average every day for the last 2-3 years. Nothing I can do about it, my number is public for business calls. It's absolutely rage inducing.
unsignedint · 1h ago
The PSTN is simply not sustainable. It’s a relic of a time when there was no practical way to authenticate or validate calls. Today, with malicious actors able to dial in from anywhere in the world at negligible cost, the system is fundamentally unequipped to handle the abuse it faces.
Efforts like STIR/SHAKEN exist, but they’re little more than a band-aid—and not a particularly effective one—because the underlying network was never designed with resilience or trust in mind.
I know some people push back on this view, often pointing to edge cases where PSTN’s ubiquity still provides value. But as trust in the system erodes, so does its relevance. And if the majority of people already avoid answering calls from numbers they don’t recognize, its practical utility is clearly diminished.
RugnirViking · 2h ago
Here's to many more. Some may be downcast because they feel like its a drop in the ocean, but many drops an ocean do make. Hopefully its the start of actually enforcing some of our laws on the internet.
coldpie · 2h ago
Good start. Next, put the people running these scam phone providers in jail.
ahmeneeroe-v2 · 2h ago
Yes! Easy to forget that just because "we" don't fall for them, they're still incredibly harmful to our seniors and other vulnerable populations.
Also hate the scam "work from home for $125,000 per year" texts. They really prey on the desperate.
jm4 · 1h ago
Exactly. My city started posting about online safety and warnings about various scams. Unfortunately, almost every one of them also mentions how a local resident was victimized. We have a fairly large senior population.
It's easy to say it's idiots who fall for this stuff when we're young enough to have grown up in this world or started using new technology at an early age. We will be the ones targeted someday and it will be a medium that didn't become available to us until later in life just like what the seniors are experiencing now.
rectang · 5m ago
> It's easy to say it's idiots who fall for this stuff
It’s not just “easy”, it’s an ideological imperative to ensure that the vulnerable have “personal responsibility” to avoid predation, while predators bear no responsibility for their own actions. Many tech business models depend on exploitation — it’s not just phone scammers.
schmidtleonard · 1h ago
Yes, although it's worth mentioning that there are scams that target our demographic, they just look different (fake investment, job, real-estate, or romance opportunities).
RankingMember · 1h ago
The "r/scams" sub-reddit is an amazing glimpse into this world. The saddest ones to me are the peoples' parents who fully believe they're talking to a celebrity who needs their money for some outlandish reason (and they send it to them over and over).
RajT88 · 2h ago
I know a gal whose grandmother sent ~400k to scammers, which is the kind of victim they are looking for - someone in cognitive decline who is malleable. The neighbors apparently also were preying on her, and ended up with her cars and a bunch of other stuff.
Absolute scum of the earth.
Bender · 2h ago
Good start. Next, put the people running these scam phone providers in jail.
I agree. In fact, 1200 SS7 circuits is nothing. If these people are not locked up they will just get another circuit using another fake identity. It's like blocking 1200 ASN's and saying one made a dent in spam.
candiddevmike · 1h ago
Do these scam phone providers have their Google My Business listing verified yet?
sgc · 7m ago
PTSD on HN. It hurts.
nativeit · 1h ago
You should call them a few hundred thousand times just to be sure.
paxys · 2h ago
I'm going to go ahead and say none of them are in the jurisdiction of the DoJ.
coldpie · 2h ago
No one outside the jurisdiction of my country's laws should be able to make my phone ring or send me text messages without my permission.
AnimalMuppet · 1h ago
At least without it showing up as an international number.
schmidtleonard · 1h ago
No, labeling is not enough, options are not enough, unattested communication needs to go silently to spam by default. Anything else encourages the spam. "We let spammers ring your phone unless you tick an option 5 menus deep in your phone that gets automatically reset every 3 months at update time and moved every 2 years between names/locations that range from awful to insane" doesn't cut it.
coldpie · 1h ago
The beautiful thing about default-deny for internationally-sourced calls is it fixes the spam problem for everyone, including those who opt-in. If 90% of the spammers' calls are just immediately dropped, they're no longer going to get enough hits to be worth the effort, so it also protects those who actually do have a legit reason to receive international calls.
schmidtleonard · 1h ago
Yes, but we don't even have to go that far: international != unattested. Legitimate overseas telecoms should be able to sign their communications. The point isn't to seal off the USA, the point is to have someone to ban if they start abusing access.
Most international telecom operations aren't facilitating scam call centers, and of the ones who are I suspect very few are so eager to turn a blind eye that they will continue to do so when staring down the barrel of actual consequences.
more_corn · 1h ago
You got my vote
infamouscow · 1h ago
Being outside of US legal jurisdiction is exactly why they ought to be thrown into a wood chipper.
I don't understand why this doesn't happen EVERY DAY until the problem is resolved.
And before someone cite US code: it's virtually impossible for foreigners to seek justice in this context. Not only do these criminals lack the money, education, and access to legal representation to do so, but the DoJ has better things to do than spend their time looking into the veracity of an international claim of this kind.
more_corn · 1h ago
Or start assassinating them. They prey on the most vulnerable Americans. Why not declare war on them and start decapitating their organizations?
edm0nd · 1h ago
I pray and yearn for the day that they legalize and allow drone striking ransomware operators.
kevin_thibedeau · 1h ago
Gotta round up the people who lost their green cards first.
jacobr1 · 2h ago
How many are based in the US and subject to US-based prosecution?
coldpie · 2h ago
Why can someone from outside the US make my phone ring? Why can't I opt out of calls sourced internationally? Seems like an easy way to fix the problem. There is no reason for anyone overseas to call me, and if someone US-based does phone spamming, we can prosecute them.
Bender · 2h ago
Why can someone from outside the US make my phone ring?
There are applications to block international calls but that only helps if the number is not spoofed. People that have SS7 lines into the telco system can spoof as just about any number. I wanted to kill those circuits but my employer at the time said, "they are paying their bills, arent they?". This was in the 90's. I guess the laws are every so slowly starting to catch up.
to11mtm · 2h ago
> I wanted to kill those circuits but my employer at the time said, "they are paying their bills, arent they?".
This is loud to me, mostly because the last time I got non-TCPA compliant texts trying to solicit business, the VOIP provider refused to give the company's actual name or contact info.
spookie · 2h ago
SS7 should be nuked from orbit, at some point we have to stop pretending we can't replace that pos.
Bender · 2h ago
SS7 should be nuked from orbit
I completely agree.
larrysalibra · 2h ago
You're right, it is an easy technical fix.
Mainland China lets people opt out of phone calls that come from outside of the Mainland...it's a feature one can turn off on an on their mobile plan.
Calls from outside the Mainland always cause a warning to pop up on the receiving user's phone that says something like "this call is coming from outside of the mainland, be careful of being scammed".
I can imagine there are many reasons the US doesn't fix this..one of which probably that much of US customer service is outsourced to people outside the US!
potato3732842 · 2h ago
>I can imagine there are many reasons the US doesn't fix this..one of which probably that much of US customer service is outsourced to people outside the US!
This. Gotta have your round robin of foreign call centers be able to spoof the main customer service line numbers for whoever they're contracted to represent.
Personally I think that should all be done in software these days, not something supported at the teleco level but what do I know.
OkayPhysicist · 2h ago
This isn't even an unreasonable feature to implement. We just need something like SSL certs: Has Legitimate Business holding phone number XYZ granted other entity the right to use their identity?
LorenPechtel · 1h ago
Exactly. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to spoof numbers, but all of them are people acting on behalf of the owner of the number being spoofed. Enforce that.
CoastalCoder · 2h ago
I wish only people bearing a token that I've previously signed could call me.
ahmeneeroe-v2 · 2h ago
This would be awesome. Next step would be filtering out non-US IPs from any online content (including forum comments, videos, tweets, etc)
ajross · 1h ago
An easy way to "fix" the problem for closet dwelling US nerds like us who've decided we don't want to use the telephone anymore. Everyone else in the world isn't like us, and have to actually use their phones to talk to real people everywhere. Pretty much everyone has family abroad, etc... This just isn't a serious suggestion.
Which is why this is likely to end up getting rolled back. Surely most of these providers are dominated by spam. But equally surely all of them carry some legitimate traffic (or else this particular trigger would have been pulled already).
There will be friendly fire from this policy decision, almost certainly.
coldpie · 56m ago
I'd love a solution that would fix the problem for everyone, sure, but since the evidence is that is apparently impossible, I'll happily take one that only helps a subset.
vel0city · 37m ago
> Pretty much everyone has family abroad
In the US? Most normie people I know barely even know anyone that's visited overseas anywhere other than Canada and Mexico, much less stay connected to family living abroad. Tons of people don't even regularly talk to people outside of state they live in.
Don't get me wrong it's not entirely uncommon and can be common in immigrant communities but outside of that unless you've got wealthy globe-trotting family you probably don't have anyone to talk to overseas. Its something far from "pretty much everyone".
ToucanLoucan · 2h ago
> Why can someone from outside the US make my phone ring? Why can't I opt out of calls sourced internationally?
Because spam call centers pay much more to access phone networks than you do, therefore telcos care about them, and not you. Plus you NEED a phone and they know that.
advisedwang · 2h ago
Even when the scammers are out of the US, at some point in the chain a US based telephone company is accepting inbound connections that don't provide the validation required.
ahmeneeroe-v2 · 2h ago
The scale of fraud is such that this should factor into trade talks.
Also, pragmatically, basically everywhere outside of China and Russia is subject to US "prosecution".
mh- · 2h ago
More than you'd think, from what I've seen.
stonemetal12 · 2h ago
Probably none, but you would think fraud would be illegal everywhere.
lokar · 2h ago
That's no longer a barrier to the use of force by the US
ahmeneeroe-v2 · 2h ago
Literally has not been a barrier to the US using force to protect commercial interests since "the shores of Tripoli" in 1801.
Triphibian · 2h ago
Or at the very least send them a DVD of The Beekeeper.
xp84 · 1h ago
I'll definitely believe it when I don't see those calls, but I could not be more in favor of turning the phone network into a much more "trusted" type of system -- similar to how SSL certs used to be prior to the Let's Encrypt era, where it requires some form of validation of something besides 'existence':
Conceptually, someone US-based should have to cryptographically sign, with their license to continue participating at stake, an assertion that the source phone number is real. People should be free to configure their devices or phone accounts (A) what countries to accept calls from and (B) whether to accept unverified calls whose numbers are presumably spoofed.
Note: i'm aware that SHAKEN/STIR or whatever exists and shares some of that idea, I'm just looking forward to full adoption of something so that I can make those choices described above.
Combine this next with ability to report numbers who spam (with the Apple/Google duopoly it should be trivially easy to put a "report spam" button in the call UI) and sanction providers (first financially and eventually with revocation of their credential to sign calls).
Maybe 30 years ago it would have been seen as too draconian to prevent someone from being able to call others anonymously but the Internet exists and provides ample avenues for those cliche use cases like "whistleblower needs to talk to journalists" so I'm 100% happy to have 'burdensome regulation' here if it stops scammers from ruining the phone as a usable channel for urgent information like "Your car is ready to pick up from the shop" or "Hi, you're the emergency contact for ____ and they are headed to the hospital."
bongodongobob · 1h ago
> Conceptually, someone US-based should have to cryptographically sign, with their license to continue participating at stake, an assertion that the source phone number is real.
But phone numbers aren't real. They aren't any more real than an IP address. It's arbitrary. This is how VOIP systems work. You just assign a number from your block.
xp84 · 1h ago
I totally get this, however they are assigned -- meaning someone is responsible for them. If you own the range 212-555-0000 through 9999 and you sign calls for spammers as coming from that range, those numbers should be revoked from your control, or you should be denied the ability to sign those outbound calls/texts so that your calls appear as likely fake.
Ideally anyone who owns numbers would stop letting literally anybody do anything with their numbers (the way they do today) because they don't want to lose the numbers or to get banned from operating a PSTN-connected system.
The outcome I'm going for is that if you're a spammer you can't find any US phone number owners who will let you use their numbers so you can only send "unsigned" calls that are obviously spam, or sign calls as originating from irresponsible countries, which are easily filtered out by those of us who don't have any friends in the Phillipines or whatever.
lippihom · 1h ago
Robocalls are a huge pain but just as annoying is non-stop spam text messages. No idea why Apple doesn't allow for keyword filtering. Spam and robocalls are mostly nonexistent problems on Android.
rgreen · 1h ago
i've used Bouncer for years on ios with success to filter non-stop political fundraising texts.
barkerja · 1h ago
It's not perfect/ideal, but you can basically accomplish keyword filtering using a shortcut powered by a message automation. I've done something similar where during the political season I would have all incoming texts (from unknown numbers) run through an LLM to determine if it was a political message. If so, it'd get deleted immediately.
patrickhogan1 · 2h ago
Something changed about 1 year ago where the spam calls I get are 10x higher than in the past. It got so bad I had to change how I use my phone. Any caller not in my contact list goes immediately to voicemail.
I’ve tried several robocall blockers, but they tend to cause connectivity issues.
If anyone else has this problem, what are you using to prevent robocalls?
nativeit · 1h ago
I just stopped answering any/all unknown phone numbers. Only my contacts get me without leaving a message. I'm sure it's caused me to lose business, but I can't find a better way of maintaining my own productivity/sanity. I do disclose this practice in the outgoing message, and encourage callers to text me if they don't get an answer. Whatever software the robocallers use doesn't seem to be smart enough to clock this as an alternative channel, but I'm sure some AI product will make this worse.
LorenPechtel · 1h ago
Yup, we went to this not too long ago. Many calls a day, mostly medicare scammers.
Workaccount2 · 1h ago
Pixel phones are excellent at blocking spam calls. In fact I will not let my mother use any other phone despite her desperately wanting an iPhone.
My SO has an iPhone and she gets at least 3-4 spam calls a day. I get probably 1 a week that gets through the filter, which you can screen with a bot anyway.
mythrwy · 1h ago
Same. I have a Pixel on Google Fi and get like one spam call every 2 weeks. And it always shows "possible spam" in big red letters.
My girlfriend on the other hand gets several a day with a Samsung on A&TT. And it's worse for her because she is a real estate agent and can't afford not to take calls.
bahmboo · 1h ago
Pixel phones. Night and day difference from my wife’s iPhone. Same carrier. It’s simply not an issue.
BugsJustFindMe · 1h ago
I have an iPhone and I basically never get spam calls.
bahmboo · 24m ago
Interesting. To be clear I get spam calls but they are rejected or screened automatically. If I look through my call history I can see some them.
There are most certainly other factors at play.
My wife recently switched from a Samsung to a new iPhone which prompted my observation (not a pixel phone of course but still it got worse for her). All anecdata.
njovin · 1h ago
Same thing happened to me several years ago.
I just send anyone not in my contacts to voicemail (using the iOS setting) and delete all the robocall voicemails about once per month.
dlachausse · 1h ago
I’ve given up and just don’t answer calls from anyone that isn’t in my contacts list.
If it’s important they’ll text me or leave a voicemail with a callback number.
There are a LOT of ISPs on this list. I wonder what's going to happen to all the legitimate VOIP users? No more cable phone lines, effectively?
shrubble · 1h ago
For KYC-like needs, foreign companies or bad actors are registering their LLC in Wyoming which satisfies the requirements, according to a friend of mine who’s in the business…
_fat_santa · 1h ago
Before I got my phone number, a woman by the name of "Sade" has the number. Recently I've been getting at least one call per day from the same company regarding an extended auto warranty.
I've told them politely that this is the wrong number, they keep calling. I've asked them to take my number off their list and they happily agree to, but they keep calling. I've threatened to contact the FCC is they keep calling yet....they keep calling. I've tried to block their number multiple times, but they just keep fucking calling from different numbers.
I honestly don't get the logic of these places. "Hey this guy has told us 20 times in all manner of ways to stop calling him....but I think he might buy an extended warranty on the 21st call!!"
Can someone explain to me what the logic of these places is? It just seems like an absolute brain-dead strategy.
RankingMember · 1h ago
I never answer any calls from non-contacts because I assume answering automatically flags the number as "a live one" meaning "potential target who picks up their phone" in any number of nefarious databases. If an outside/unknown number needs me they can leave a message and I'll call them back if the message reveals them to be legit.
sumtechguy · 55m ago
This will take a few times but... That is when you interact with them, maliciously. Basically cost them time and money. Have them on there for an hour or more. Set phone down come back every 2-3 mins and make sure they are still there. Make sure you have them repeat everything, your connection is not so good. Drag it for at least 20-60 mins. Then at the last second back out on the sale and mention you wanted on their do not call list at the end. As well as a copy of their DNC policy priority mailed. "you know what I am going to ask you put me on your do not call list and I want a copy of your do not call policy just like the last 3 times".
You break that support persons numbers and they may add you. At worst they will call again and you cost them more money.
dkiebd · 6m ago
What happened here is that the dealership sold that girl's data to many companies. You can tell one of the companies to stop calling, and they will happily remove you from their database, but there are many of them with your phone number.
LorenPechtel · 1h ago
Hoping someone else answers that's scammable.
reactordev · 1h ago
Lack of write access to the db, your call will be forwarded to the next available operator.
wat10000 · 1h ago
I've lost track of how many times I've seen people say something like, "I gave them something so they would go away, but they keep calling me." So yes, bothering people until you get some money from them is probably viable. Keep in mind that it doesn't have to work on everyone. If it works on 1% of their victims it's probably still profitable.
Is this why I haven't received any spam calls today after years of getting dozens daily? Hallelujah if so!
vorpalhex · 2h ago
EVE Online has had a functional anti-spam system for many years: it costs you some money to contact someone who doesn't have you in their contacts.
The amount is configurable and the feature can be turned off.
You as the receiver keep 70% of the fee.
Think of how quickly spam would go away.
AJ007 · 1h ago
Between the 0 real security and the generational jump in capability fraud now has because of AI, there is no excuse for the continued existence of traditional voice or SMS. We'll never be able to solve compromised devices or social engineering of others, but the idea that anyone/any software in the world can push a message to a device and then immediately communicate with that person is absurd.
xp84 · 1h ago
At the risk of going too cliché on AI speculation, imagine a hostile AI (or just a non-aligned one under the control of a big nation-state adversary) with nothing but ability to send spoofed texts and calls, and a mission to harm US interests.
It could easily set up thousands of people as unknowing patsies to commit mass terrorist acts, just by giving the AI a small amount of crypto to use in "paying people for gig work" to do tasks. It could start people off with busywork like ferrying harmless packages back and forth, and the ones who proved reliable, eventually would get a much less harmless package to be delivered somewhere sensitive.
That could all be orchestrated by human terrorists of course, but it's so much more effective if they could do it in 100 cities at once without almost any (knowing) human labor, and without any detectable foreign involvement.
unsignedint · 1h ago
Or just make callers cover all the costs, like in some countries. Still, I really wish there were an option to charge incoming callers as you suggested—because honestly, about 90% of calls I get outside my circle are unsolicited. That way, only the 10% that truly matter would reach me. Right now, I’m on a strict “no-ring” policy: if a call turns out to be legitimate, I’ll call back. But nobody gets real-time PSTN access to me anymore—it’s simply not sustainable.
Mashimo · 1h ago
> Or just make callers cover all the costs,
Wait, who covers the cost in the US?
unsignedint · 56m ago
In the US, the receiver effectively covers the cost of mobile calls—though it’s a bit nuanced, so apologies for any lack of clarity. You’re essentially paying for incoming calls if you’re on a metered plan, since those minutes get deducted. With most rate plans now being unlimited, this cost is somewhat hidden.
In Japan (the only other system I’m familiar with), it works differently: the caller is charged for the recipient’s end, while the receiver pays nothing. For example, calling a mobile phone from a landline costs more to account for the mobile portion. I remember years ago using a prepaid phone card from a payphone to call a mobile number—the balance drained incredibly fast. This is one reason why younger generations in Japan rarely rely on PSTN for routine calls, since it can quickly become expensive.
Mashimo · 45m ago
Dang, I never even heard about that. A few years back I read that US people had to pay for incoming SMS. That was already crazy.
unsignedint · 5m ago
Yes, it used to be around 15 cents or so to send or receive an SMS (depending on the rate plan). But, as with calls, unlimited messaging has become the norm these days.
msgodel · 2h ago
Just kill the phone. It's a terrible anachronism. If you insist on voice you can attach an ogg/mp3 file to your email.
Mashimo · 1h ago
How I imagine you ~~calling~~ emailing the fire department: https://youtu.be/uesx85EHRTo (The IT crowd - Moss Contacts Fire Department)
msgodel · 38m ago
Sure, put the emergency hotline on the internet. It already is very special and doesn't use the phone network the way other voice calls do.
nativeit · 1h ago
I'm not one of the people down-voting this, I'm inclined to sort of agree with you. Where you lost me was attaching files to an email. Are you really suggesting this solution has fewer problems than telephones?
unsignedint · 1h ago
Well, isn’t that essentially what voicemail is? We already have a mechanism to send voices as files—it’s just that not all voicemail systems deliver them in that format.
It wouldn’t solve everything, but considering how many scammers rely on real-time urgency in their calls, shifting phone communication toward asynchronous messages could actually help. It would undercut that pressure tactic, and it would also make record-keeping much easier.
ratelimitsteve · 1h ago
I'm here for the explanation as to how attached voice clips are equivalent to real time two-way voice communication
In practice of course, my phone is 100% permanently in "do not disturb" mode and does not ring at all unless I've added you to my contact list. Which means the scammer, already pretending to live in small town rural USA (where they most certainly are not) has to correctly guess the number of one of my relatives before my pocket actually rings. It also means I'm unreachable for anything actually important that isn't in my contact list. That's an annoying price.
I'm not sure what the correct end solution is, but the current solution seems to be very broken.
Then, one day, an app developer thought: Wouldn't it be cool if there was an app that would interrupt what the user was doing, play a sound, vibrate the device, and put up a full-screen dialog, that this all could be activated remotely by any other device by simply typing in a short numeric code, and that if the recipient pushed a button, the remote attacker could send audio data and activate the recipient's microphone? Most app stores would classify this as malware, yet here we are today with devices that all have built-in apps that do exactly this, and only because of how normalized the legacy idea of a "phone call" is.
Considering Facebook ([0] and [1] to name a few) is still available, I think that's a pretty high bar to clear.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44401406
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44169115
When someone has to pay, it’s alot easier to frog march some shitbird engineer to a dank prison than a corporate executive.
There's no free source of this information anywhere. The only affordable option is telcodata.us
Really sad how these rules do nothing to stop them
Spam calls in the UK for example, are rare. All of the spam calls I get are from my US desk number.
Btw, if you haven't already, you can sign up for the FCC's Do Not Call list[0]. While obviously this isn't going to solve everything, it does make it illegal for legitimate companies to call you. Absent this incident, it did appear to have a significant effect in reducing spam calls when I signed up years ago. Also, here's some info about junk mail[1]. It costs about $6 and lasts 10 years.
[0] https://www.donotcall.gov/index.html
[1] https://consumer.ftc.gov/how-stop-junk-mail
In the beginning, they seemed to take their job seriously, but I doubt that has been the case for many years.
Right after SHAKEN/STIR was passed, I got zero spoofed calls. I did get a few robocalls, but they weren't spoofed.
For a month or so. So that shows the problem can be solved, legislatively.
Then, they started coming back, and now, almost every call I get, is spoofed. This includes some legit ones.
Also, legit callers should keep in mind that the autodialer companies they employ, might also moonlight as spammers, so they get blacklisted. I have had quite a number of legit calls get listed as spam.
Cynically, I feel as if politicians are unwilling to get tough on these, because they (or their proxies) use them. That seems to be both sides of the aisle.
Efforts like STIR/SHAKEN exist, but they’re little more than a band-aid—and not a particularly effective one—because the underlying network was never designed with resilience or trust in mind.
I know some people push back on this view, often pointing to edge cases where PSTN’s ubiquity still provides value. But as trust in the system erodes, so does its relevance. And if the majority of people already avoid answering calls from numbers they don’t recognize, its practical utility is clearly diminished.
Also hate the scam "work from home for $125,000 per year" texts. They really prey on the desperate.
It's easy to say it's idiots who fall for this stuff when we're young enough to have grown up in this world or started using new technology at an early age. We will be the ones targeted someday and it will be a medium that didn't become available to us until later in life just like what the seniors are experiencing now.
It’s not just “easy”, it’s an ideological imperative to ensure that the vulnerable have “personal responsibility” to avoid predation, while predators bear no responsibility for their own actions. Many tech business models depend on exploitation — it’s not just phone scammers.
Absolute scum of the earth.
I agree. In fact, 1200 SS7 circuits is nothing. If these people are not locked up they will just get another circuit using another fake identity. It's like blocking 1200 ASN's and saying one made a dent in spam.
Most international telecom operations aren't facilitating scam call centers, and of the ones who are I suspect very few are so eager to turn a blind eye that they will continue to do so when staring down the barrel of actual consequences.
I don't understand why this doesn't happen EVERY DAY until the problem is resolved.
And before someone cite US code: it's virtually impossible for foreigners to seek justice in this context. Not only do these criminals lack the money, education, and access to legal representation to do so, but the DoJ has better things to do than spend their time looking into the veracity of an international claim of this kind.
There are applications to block international calls but that only helps if the number is not spoofed. People that have SS7 lines into the telco system can spoof as just about any number. I wanted to kill those circuits but my employer at the time said, "they are paying their bills, arent they?". This was in the 90's. I guess the laws are every so slowly starting to catch up.
This is loud to me, mostly because the last time I got non-TCPA compliant texts trying to solicit business, the VOIP provider refused to give the company's actual name or contact info.
I completely agree.
Mainland China lets people opt out of phone calls that come from outside of the Mainland...it's a feature one can turn off on an on their mobile plan.
Calls from outside the Mainland always cause a warning to pop up on the receiving user's phone that says something like "this call is coming from outside of the mainland, be careful of being scammed".
I can imagine there are many reasons the US doesn't fix this..one of which probably that much of US customer service is outsourced to people outside the US!
This. Gotta have your round robin of foreign call centers be able to spoof the main customer service line numbers for whoever they're contracted to represent.
Personally I think that should all be done in software these days, not something supported at the teleco level but what do I know.
Which is why this is likely to end up getting rolled back. Surely most of these providers are dominated by spam. But equally surely all of them carry some legitimate traffic (or else this particular trigger would have been pulled already).
There will be friendly fire from this policy decision, almost certainly.
In the US? Most normie people I know barely even know anyone that's visited overseas anywhere other than Canada and Mexico, much less stay connected to family living abroad. Tons of people don't even regularly talk to people outside of state they live in.
Don't get me wrong it's not entirely uncommon and can be common in immigrant communities but outside of that unless you've got wealthy globe-trotting family you probably don't have anyone to talk to overseas. Its something far from "pretty much everyone".
Because spam call centers pay much more to access phone networks than you do, therefore telcos care about them, and not you. Plus you NEED a phone and they know that.
Also, pragmatically, basically everywhere outside of China and Russia is subject to US "prosecution".
Conceptually, someone US-based should have to cryptographically sign, with their license to continue participating at stake, an assertion that the source phone number is real. People should be free to configure their devices or phone accounts (A) what countries to accept calls from and (B) whether to accept unverified calls whose numbers are presumably spoofed.
Note: i'm aware that SHAKEN/STIR or whatever exists and shares some of that idea, I'm just looking forward to full adoption of something so that I can make those choices described above.
Combine this next with ability to report numbers who spam (with the Apple/Google duopoly it should be trivially easy to put a "report spam" button in the call UI) and sanction providers (first financially and eventually with revocation of their credential to sign calls).
Maybe 30 years ago it would have been seen as too draconian to prevent someone from being able to call others anonymously but the Internet exists and provides ample avenues for those cliche use cases like "whistleblower needs to talk to journalists" so I'm 100% happy to have 'burdensome regulation' here if it stops scammers from ruining the phone as a usable channel for urgent information like "Your car is ready to pick up from the shop" or "Hi, you're the emergency contact for ____ and they are headed to the hospital."
But phone numbers aren't real. They aren't any more real than an IP address. It's arbitrary. This is how VOIP systems work. You just assign a number from your block.
Ideally anyone who owns numbers would stop letting literally anybody do anything with their numbers (the way they do today) because they don't want to lose the numbers or to get banned from operating a PSTN-connected system.
The outcome I'm going for is that if you're a spammer you can't find any US phone number owners who will let you use their numbers so you can only send "unsigned" calls that are obviously spam, or sign calls as originating from irresponsible countries, which are easily filtered out by those of us who don't have any friends in the Phillipines or whatever.
I’ve tried several robocall blockers, but they tend to cause connectivity issues.
If anyone else has this problem, what are you using to prevent robocalls?
My SO has an iPhone and she gets at least 3-4 spam calls a day. I get probably 1 a week that gets through the filter, which you can screen with a bot anyway.
My girlfriend on the other hand gets several a day with a Samsung on A&TT. And it's worse for her because she is a real estate agent and can't afford not to take calls.
There are most certainly other factors at play.
My wife recently switched from a Samsung to a new iPhone which prompted my observation (not a pixel phone of course but still it got worse for her). All anecdata.
I just send anyone not in my contacts to voicemail (using the iOS setting) and delete all the robocall voicemails about once per month.
If it’s important they’ll text me or leave a voicemail with a callback number.
doc with list of the removed company names.
I've told them politely that this is the wrong number, they keep calling. I've asked them to take my number off their list and they happily agree to, but they keep calling. I've threatened to contact the FCC is they keep calling yet....they keep calling. I've tried to block their number multiple times, but they just keep fucking calling from different numbers.
I honestly don't get the logic of these places. "Hey this guy has told us 20 times in all manner of ways to stop calling him....but I think he might buy an extended warranty on the 21st call!!"
Can someone explain to me what the logic of these places is? It just seems like an absolute brain-dead strategy.
You break that support persons numbers and they may add you. At worst they will call again and you cost them more money.
The amount is configurable and the feature can be turned off.
You as the receiver keep 70% of the fee.
Think of how quickly spam would go away.
It could easily set up thousands of people as unknowing patsies to commit mass terrorist acts, just by giving the AI a small amount of crypto to use in "paying people for gig work" to do tasks. It could start people off with busywork like ferrying harmless packages back and forth, and the ones who proved reliable, eventually would get a much less harmless package to be delivered somewhere sensitive.
That could all be orchestrated by human terrorists of course, but it's so much more effective if they could do it in 100 cities at once without almost any (knowing) human labor, and without any detectable foreign involvement.
Wait, who covers the cost in the US?
In Japan (the only other system I’m familiar with), it works differently: the caller is charged for the recipient’s end, while the receiver pays nothing. For example, calling a mobile phone from a landline costs more to account for the mobile portion. I remember years ago using a prepaid phone card from a payphone to call a mobile number—the balance drained incredibly fast. This is one reason why younger generations in Japan rarely rely on PSTN for routine calls, since it can quickly become expensive.
It wouldn’t solve everything, but considering how many scammers rely on real-time urgency in their calls, shifting phone communication toward asynchronous messages could actually help. It would undercut that pressure tactic, and it would also make record-keeping much easier.