The money laundering control systems, as well as being ineffective at controlling crime can be a pain in the neck for the law abiding. I have money from my grandad, received 40 years ago. No one really has records going back that far but you try buying a house and they want proof of the origin of the funds. Trying going to your bank to get records from five years ago often gives a date out of range error.
gruez · 24m ago
>The money laundering control systems, as well as being ineffective at controlling crime
The point of AML/KYC regulations isn't to stop all crime, just like the point of US sanctions on Russia isn't to stop all Russian exports. In both cases it's to raise the cost of doing business for the entity being targeted. In the case of Russia, they can still sell their oil to India or whatever, but at a steep discount. In the case of drug cartels, they can still get their funds into the regular banking system, but also at a steep discount. Smuggling pallets of dollar bills across the border and setting up a network of front companies is expensive. Doing all that also which implicate them in even more crimes, so even if there's no evidence of them smuggling fentanyl, they can be prosecuted purely on the basis of having a car full of cash.
>I have money from my grandad, received 40 years ago. No one really has records going back that far but you try buying a house and they want proof of the origin of the funds.
The better question is why are you were sitting on cash for 40 years. In that time inflation already ate 66% of the value, and if you factor in the opportunity cost of not investing the money in stocks/bonds, the loss is even greater.
jacquesm · 1m ago
If I get the OP correctly it wasn't 'cash' that they were sitting on but it was a balance in a bank account. You can turn that into cash (unless lots of other people try to do the same thing at the same time, see also 'bank run') but strictly speaking it isn't cash.
bee_rider · 12m ago
I don’t think that really is the better question. It’s their money, if they want to do silly things with it that’s up to them.
jacquesm · 2m ago
Yes, but they are now aiming to use these funds to buy real estate and of course that is going to raise a bunch of flags. If the government would accept this without challenge criminals would suddenly be left all kinds of crazy inheritances. At a minimum you'd expect some documentation of how that money landed in their possession in the first place, for instance a will, a final balance of an estate and so on.
I've handled a couple of these for family members and the amount of paperwork around even a minor inheritance can be pretty impressive.
bob1029 · 23m ago
One fun way to get around this is to have enough money to sidestep the bank altogether. The title company does not give a shit about where the money came from. All they will want to see is a screenshot of your current balance so they know you aren't wasting everyone's time.
gnopgnip · 20m ago
The lender only needs you to show proof of the origin of funds if they were transferred in the last 60 days
spydum · 23m ago
They have them, but not from a web interface. Probably will require talking to a human, and a service fee to retrieve the records from physical storage.
phkahler · 35m ago
We all complain about big brother, new surveillance tech, and the easy sharing of personal data with government. And yet, some of the biggest problems seem to be untouched. Is this incompetence, beuacracy, complicity?
throw101010 · 17m ago
The moment you try to look into the fines governments impose on banks caught money laundering and the rare cases in which bankers actually see a prison cell, your last option is the most likely one, with a sprinkle of the two others.
My main issue is that all the AML/KYC/KYB barriers we have to deal with never seem to be subject to efficiency tests, all the studies I read and the few audits of these system seem content with it's likely better than doing nothing... but never measure the lost opportunities in trade/business they cause.
In a way it's the same hopless fight against so-called piracy for movies/games. The motivated actors who want to break the law find ways to do it at a large scale, mostly without consequences... and the honest people are just hindered when they want to use their content (even lose access to it when DRMs rely on the existence of the developer/publisher and their goodwill to maintain it way past the time when that media was able to generate revenues).
giantg2 · 1h ago
You'd be better off not implementing the majority of the AML stuff and then just freezing/seizing the assets of known criminals once it's in the system.
gruez · 43m ago
>just freezing/seizing the assets of known criminals once it's in the system.
How does that even work? You think that without an AML system, el chapo is going to be opening a wells fargo account with his real name?
butlike · 5m ago
not well, evidently.
Notch123 · 1h ago
Only read the abstract, but this doesn't seem surprising seeing that crypto, despite maybe noble intentions, has involved in the worlds' easiest way to launder money and the president himself happily makes a couple of 100 mil with his own shitcoin.
Stagnant · 58m ago
In the grand scheme of things crypto-related money laundering is just a drop in the bucket compared to the amounts being laundered using more traditional methods.
PaulHoule · 42m ago
Most crypto coins (not Monero) are pseudonymous. If a particular bitcoin wallet comes to somebody's attention they can investigate hassle anybody that this person tries to trade with, tell exchanges not to redeem cash, etc.
Thing is these tactics aren't just available to the authorities but also to anyone like intelligence agencies, the mafia, etc. so the confidentiality problems are much much worse with crypto.
paulgerhardt · 11m ago
> Most crypto coins (not Monero) are pseudonymous.
Try telling it to Chinese, Russian, Indian exchanges.
pavlov · 37m ago
But it’s intentionally set up to be much more accessible than the traditional laundering methods.
Crypto advocates love this “drop in the bucket” excuse. By the same logic, it’s not a problem if I manufacture extra strong alpha-PVP and hand it to school children, because my drug distribution is just a drop in the bucket compared to the global cocaine trade.
kalaksi · 18m ago
> Crypto advocates love this “drop in the bucket” excuse.
Or so you think.
Notch123 · 51m ago
No clue, but likely
bob1029 · 51m ago
> For example, the United States has not required the disclosure of beneficial ownership information for establishing corporations (violating rec. 24) until recently.
I worked on a front line product for US banks and built a process to verify beneficial ownership for business account openings. I found the current expectations to be laughable:
> An individual may be a beneficial owner of a reporting company by indirectly holding 25 percent or more of the ownership interests of the reporting company through multiple exempt entities.
Getting around this is not very difficult if you are clever and wealthy.
The overall takeaway I had was that these kinds of rules don't really work in the cases where they need to the most. I don't know how much of a deterrent this could ever hope to be. We even developed an override process for this based on a request from one of our clients.
eep_social · 8m ago
unsurprisingly they killed off the BOI reporting requirement in March [1]:
> ALERT [Updated March 26, 2025]: All entities created in the United States — including those previously known as “domestic reporting companies” — and their beneficial owners are now exempt from the requirement to report beneficial ownership information (BOI) to FinCEN.
Indirectly holding through multiple entities still counts? How would someone legally get around that? It seems like whatever you do, it's still summing up.
bob1029 · 28m ago
Not all entities count. There are 23 types that are conveniently exempt from this regulation.
I wholeheartedly hope it fails and continues to fail forever.
OutOfHere · 23m ago
Money laundering is an absurd concept made up by a lazy government that fails to go after the actual underlying crime or criminals. They don't really have evidence of actual crime, so instead they target anyone they don't like. The ultimate effect it will have is of people exiting the government controlled financial system altogether.
alphazard · 15m ago
This 100%.
It's strange to see otherwise smart people correctly identify the "think of the children" fallacy in E2E encryption or net neutrality issues, but fail to identify the same exact fallacy when network traffic is measured in dollars and not bits.
cluckindan · 1h ago
Considering the amounts being laundered, it seems likely that a lot of the money is ultimately being invested.
If we stopped money laundering totally and completely, and managed to track down and confiscate all that money, the stock market would crash, hard. So would real estate.
fugazithehaxoar · 51m ago
Residential real estate costs roughly tice what it did 10 years ago. A "crash" back closer to fair market prices would be the desired effect.
Telemakhos · 46m ago
That would be the desired effect for those seeking to enter the real estate market for the first time, but it would be disastrous for those who took out mortgages in the last few years, and it would be unwelcome to those who owned their homes longer and consider it a large (or only) asset in their personal wealth. I doubt that real estate prices will be allowed to drop much, simply because homeowners vote more reliably than renters, and they won't vote against their own financial interests.
RankingMember · 27m ago
The proceeds of crime propping up some aspect of our economy seems like a bad reason to let it continue unabated.
dec0dedab0de · 1h ago
only if they immediately sold all the confiscated assets. The government that did the confiscation could slowly divest on a schedule to minimize the effect on any markets involved.
jollyllama · 45m ago
It depends on the degree to which the continued flow of ill-gotten gains into the system is priced into current valuations.
wazoox · 1h ago
And that would be excellent news, because it would be a "great equalizer". And a more egalitarian world would be much happier.
shrubby · 41m ago
I see that the more egalitarian world is a must for us NOT going extinct.
And we're in the last minute to do that, if it's not too late already.
World seems to be headed to a short dystopian fascist phase before the collapse. A metacrisis caused by these tax-free metahumans with the tax fee multinational abstraction of individual power called corporations.
Left vs. right doesn't work to solve it, but the true dichotomy of people vs. billionaires with their sycophants.
The point of AML/KYC regulations isn't to stop all crime, just like the point of US sanctions on Russia isn't to stop all Russian exports. In both cases it's to raise the cost of doing business for the entity being targeted. In the case of Russia, they can still sell their oil to India or whatever, but at a steep discount. In the case of drug cartels, they can still get their funds into the regular banking system, but also at a steep discount. Smuggling pallets of dollar bills across the border and setting up a network of front companies is expensive. Doing all that also which implicate them in even more crimes, so even if there's no evidence of them smuggling fentanyl, they can be prosecuted purely on the basis of having a car full of cash.
>I have money from my grandad, received 40 years ago. No one really has records going back that far but you try buying a house and they want proof of the origin of the funds.
The better question is why are you were sitting on cash for 40 years. In that time inflation already ate 66% of the value, and if you factor in the opportunity cost of not investing the money in stocks/bonds, the loss is even greater.
I've handled a couple of these for family members and the amount of paperwork around even a minor inheritance can be pretty impressive.
My main issue is that all the AML/KYC/KYB barriers we have to deal with never seem to be subject to efficiency tests, all the studies I read and the few audits of these system seem content with it's likely better than doing nothing... but never measure the lost opportunities in trade/business they cause.
In a way it's the same hopless fight against so-called piracy for movies/games. The motivated actors who want to break the law find ways to do it at a large scale, mostly without consequences... and the honest people are just hindered when they want to use their content (even lose access to it when DRMs rely on the existence of the developer/publisher and their goodwill to maintain it way past the time when that media was able to generate revenues).
How does that even work? You think that without an AML system, el chapo is going to be opening a wells fargo account with his real name?
Thing is these tactics aren't just available to the authorities but also to anyone like intelligence agencies, the mafia, etc. so the confidentiality problems are much much worse with crypto.
It's worth reading the OSPEAD report from the Monero Community: https://www.getmonero.org/2025/04/05/ospead-optimal-ring-sig...
Try telling it to Chinese, Russian, Indian exchanges.
Crypto advocates love this “drop in the bucket” excuse. By the same logic, it’s not a problem if I manufacture extra strong alpha-PVP and hand it to school children, because my drug distribution is just a drop in the bucket compared to the global cocaine trade.
Or so you think.
I worked on a front line product for US banks and built a process to verify beneficial ownership for business account openings. I found the current expectations to be laughable:
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/09/30/2022-21...
> An individual may be a beneficial owner of a reporting company by indirectly holding 25 percent or more of the ownership interests of the reporting company through multiple exempt entities.
Getting around this is not very difficult if you are clever and wealthy.
The overall takeaway I had was that these kinds of rules don't really work in the cases where they need to the most. I don't know how much of a deterrent this could ever hope to be. We even developed an override process for this based on a request from one of our clients.
> ALERT [Updated March 26, 2025]: All entities created in the United States — including those previously known as “domestic reporting companies” — and their beneficial owners are now exempt from the requirement to report beneficial ownership information (BOI) to FinCEN.
[1] https://www.fincen.gov/boi
https://www.fincen.gov/boi-faqs#C_2
It's strange to see otherwise smart people correctly identify the "think of the children" fallacy in E2E encryption or net neutrality issues, but fail to identify the same exact fallacy when network traffic is measured in dollars and not bits.
If we stopped money laundering totally and completely, and managed to track down and confiscate all that money, the stock market would crash, hard. So would real estate.
And we're in the last minute to do that, if it's not too late already.
World seems to be headed to a short dystopian fascist phase before the collapse. A metacrisis caused by these tax-free metahumans with the tax fee multinational abstraction of individual power called corporations.
Left vs. right doesn't work to solve it, but the true dichotomy of people vs. billionaires with their sycophants.