The evolution of "jerk" makes me also think of "nimrod" and how it referred to the biblical hunter and meant someone with great skills in hunting, until it was used to refer to Elmer Fudd, at which point the meaning changed to mean a complete idiot.
For anyone that knew the reference, it was ironic. Needless to say, most of the viewers of that cartoon did not. There were more of the later than former, thus..
pryce · 7m ago
It's fascinating that this pattern happened the reverse direction, with a different biblical term: the word 'fool' as used in the KJV Bible translates a Jewish concept that doesn't really mean what we think of today "a person without intellectual wisdom", but at the time of writing meant more closely "a person without moral wisdom" - or perhaps without both but apparently primarily referring to the former.
I have also seen the argument that our contemporary distinction between moral and intellectual wisdom itself is something we as readers unconsciously impose on the text, with the distinction not prominently drawn in the ancient Jewish view(s).*
This means that "Fool" moved from a meaning close to "an objectionable or obnoxious person" toward "a person without intellectual wisdom" over centuries, while "jerk" apparently has gone the opposite direction within just a few recent decades.
* I'm far from an expert at this.
quesera · 42m ago
I thought "nimrod" as an epithet (meaning ~"dummy") came from Nimrod, the Biblical king who ordered the construction of the Tower of Babel (which caused offense to God and thereafter great confusion -- which would have earned him the reputation of being a person who makes bad choices, if your belief system is so aligned).
VonGuard · 28m ago
Assyrian in origin, Nimrud was a very talented hunter, but perhaps he got mixed up with a city along the way, and the Bible's thoughts on Assyrians, Persians, and Babylonians is always interesting to trace back to the truth.
Either way, Bugs Bunny used it sarcastically to describe Elmer Fudd, and here we are.
giraffe_lady · 22m ago
I believe I have heard it used that way in something pre-20th century as well but I can't figure out where right now.
But making poor decisions and offending god is not particularly noteworthy for a figure in genesis. Possibly the most interesting thing about genesis as a piece of literature is that making horrible god-offending choices is quite routine and the figures are not understood as less important because of it, nor more important in spite of it, but simply important for unrelated reasons that cannot be changed by the quality of their judgement or morality of their actions.
scotty79 · 4m ago
It's also still used as a name in Israel, I think.
gerdesj · 1h ago
Nimrod is a piece of music and an aircraft ... in my head, well before anything to do with a comic character.
handsclean · 1h ago
I wonder if it used to be that people largely weren’t on the same page, and didn’t know it. It’s not like people consult dictionaries to learn what slang means, or even usually ask somebody, and the definitions are related enough that responses usually don’t distinguish them. I’ve noticed it’s not uncommon online that a post’s likes are split between opposing interpretations, like agreeing with its politics vs seeing it as satire of politics one disagrees with.
johnfn · 32m ago
The article specifically addresses this with the fascinating quote from Dave Berry where he reports that the definition of the word unknowingly changed in his head over the last few decades:
> “I always thought jerk meant asshole. At least I thought I always thought that, although the quotes you cite seem to suggest otherwise. So to answer your question: I have no idea. You may be right!”
smelendez · 13m ago
I think the two concepts just aren’t that far apart in American English, and words can drift back and forth. Think about insulting the driver in the next car — it’s not always clear if you’re talking about their intelligence or lack of empathy and someone listening might get the opposite impression.
Clown can mean jerk in either sense. “Who’s this idiot?” means something closer to asshole. In old movies you’ll hear someone called “a selfish fool” or “inconsiderate fool,” where fool means something closer to asshole than fool as we usually use it.
Maybe the underlying issue is that it’s hard to tell someone acting obnoxiously because they don’t know better from someone deliberately indifferent or malicious, and the consequences are often the same.
permo-w · 52m ago
the British slang version of the word "cheers" is a very good example of this. I can tell you for absolute certain that the most people use the word "cheers" to mean "thanks", but if you go online and look up the definition, you will be told it also means goodbye, which it really doesn't, but I think this arises from the fact that it's a bit more relaxed form of thanks, so people frequently say it as thank you at the end of an interaction where directly thanking the person might sound a bit awkward or overly formal. people hearing the word in that case may understandably assume it means goodbye. as you say, "jerk" is probably similar, except taken far enough that the original meaning is lost. there are many many occasions where using an insult to mean "idiot" could extremely easily be misinterpreted to mean "asshole"
zahlman · 38m ago
>but if you go online and look up the definition, you will be told it also means goodbye, which it really doesn't, but I think this arises from the fact that it's a bit more relaxed form of thanks, so people frequently say it as thank you at the end of an interaction where directly thanking the person might sound a bit awkward or overly formal.
Possibly also because of the phonetic similarity with "ciao"?
bigDinosaur · 5m ago
I find it a big stretch to consider 'ciao' phonetically similar to 'cheers', at least in terms of confusing them which I doubt any English speaker would.
Brian_K_White · 12m ago
I would have thought it means "I wish you well" which applies in both of those though more in the "goodbye" case.
Chris2048 · 13m ago
Ok, but you can also use "thanks" as a goodbye. Consider ending a phone call, maybe "thanks" is for whatever they called about, but it's effectively "goodbye" before hanging up.
renewiltord · 42m ago
Fucking hell, there's no way. The goodbye notion sounded outlandish to me, but could it be the same as OP?
> I certainly use it as a goodbye - typically after meeting someone in the street and stopping to chat, but also generally. Also as an informal signoff for email and saying goodbye over telephone.
>
> 64M British, brought up in London.
Now, I'm having second thoughts. Would I say it to a baker after buying a pastry? Yes. If I ran into a friend while out on a trip would I say it? No, I don't think so, but do I? Maybe as in "good seeing you"? How confusing.
People still aren't on the same page and don't know it.
doormatt · 54m ago
Hell, most people are in a different book.
riffic · 33m ago
language can only approximate meaning. there's an element of probability whether two parties are on the same page or even in the same volume.
dkarl · 8m ago
I remember being confused by this word when I was a kid! I was a kid in the eighties and remember reading/hearing things like "what a jerk" and thinking people were way too harsh with it. Maybe I landed too late to learn the old meaning but early enough to hear it sometimes? Or maybe I did learn it early on and then forgot with everybody else.
andy99 · 1h ago
I always thought it was the third derivative of position
Stratoscope · 22m ago
I like to use the example of being a passenger in a car.
• Position is where you are at any moment. If you're not moving, your position doesn't change.
• Velocity is how quickly your position changes. If you are doing 30 MPH on a perfectly straight road with no stops and starts, you may not even notice you're moving until you look out the window.
• Acceleration is how quickly your velocity changes. It's the force that makes you feel like you are being pushed back into your seat, for example when your velocity increases from 30 MPH to 60 MPH.
• Jerk is how quickly the acceleration changes. It's the force that makes your head snap back against the headrest. A good driver will change acceleration slowly to reduce this effect. If there is too much jerk, it may mean that your driver is being a jerk.
scyzoryk_xyz · 10m ago
Both of these took some time to get there for me but maybe that's because I'm a jerk
cloudfudge · 56m ago
This is what I thought the article was going to be about.
Ygg2 · 1h ago
Oh, snap! And crackle and pop.
pinoy420 · 1h ago
No you didn’t. Hacker news moment.
jowea · 30m ago
I sincerely was wondering whether it was about the person descriptor or the physics term.
tombert · 1h ago
Interesting. I'm thirty-something and I do seem to remember my grandparents using "jerk" to mean "idiot", but for my entire life I've always thought of it as a kid-friendly way to say "asshole".
It always confused me when my grandparents would call someone who was perfectly nice a "jerk", and it wasn't until I watched the Steve Martin movie four or five years ago that I understood why.
sugarpimpdorsey · 1h ago
It's a good time as any to remind everyone that The Jerk is still one of the funniest movies ever made. It could never be made today, and I suggest you pick up a copy if you've never seen it.
cloudfudge · 38m ago
I watched it again recently because someone I knew had never seen it. It's actually not very funny anymore. I am still amused at a lot of the jokes in it, but more in an academic sense because I remember how funny it was. There's a lot of stuff in it that's really funny on paper but just doesn't make you actually laugh anymore. Comedy doesn't really age that well, and I believe that it's because what surprises us and what's considered "clever" inevitably changes over time.
mattpallissard · 14m ago
I agree most of it doesn't, especially if it's about current events or captures the feeling of the era.
My Cousin Vinnie is an example that holds up still. No current events, no racist jokes, just typical social interactions that are still relevant.
mixmastamyk · 59m ago
Why not? I haven't seen it since the 70s, although that should be warning enough. I do remember "a rags-to riches-to rags story" tagline however.
bee_rider · 20m ago
Hmm. Whenever I see that expression in the context of a comedy, I assume they mean some non-PC elements are present. Maybe there are some jokes that would need to be modernized, but IIRC (saw it decades ago), it was mostly positive (like the Black family that adopted him is portrayed as poor, but nice and loving, right?)
OTOH it was a moderately-budgeted, somewhat clever comedy, those have trouble getting made today.
variaga · 32m ago
>> It could never be made today.
> Why not?
M. Emmett Walsh, Carl Reiner, Maurice Evans and Jackie Mason are all dead, for one reason.
shawn_w · 13m ago
Not that big an issue in this age of AI generated deepfake videos.
aspenmayer · 24m ago
Speaking of warnings, this one is all caps. They must mean business!
> The Jerk (1979) "For Theater Owners Only" Trailer
It’s hard to be this bad intentionally, and it somehow wraps around to being good again, and that’s knowing it’s an ad and the premise is suspect. Steve Martin is that good.
It raises an interesting point that I’ll put to the projectionists of HN:
Were there really trailers intended for the theater owners only? It seems absurd on its face, but I’m willing to believe that it’s been tried before, and definitely has since. I mean, ad targeting already exists, but it was probably a bit harder to do back in the day.
That’s enough for this content hole.
VonGuard · 31m ago
I believe this comes from soda jerks: the guys who jerk the soda taps and make you an egg cream or a chocolate coke. I should probably say "made," as it's a job that was eliminated by soda machines. A lot of restaurants even have customers "Jerk" their own soda, though now you just press a cup against a thingie.
permo-w · 1h ago
The meaning changing without noticing thing is interesting but not hugely surprising to me. Besides a few cartoons on TV and maybe some films, in my early life I exclusively spoke and heard British English, but with the proliferation of American English via the internet, there are a lot of words that I know full well I originally pronounced in "British", but now I'm not really sure which is the "correct" pronunciation. "Lever" and "Leverage" are good examples of words where I noticed this and had to figure out which was which. Obviously there's a difference between pronunciation and meaning, and of course I'm aware of the shift, but it feels like a similar thing.
jedberg · 1h ago
When I hear jerk my first thought is always as the second derivative of velocity, because I had a TA in college who was specifically studying jerk as it relates to autonomous driving -- back in the 90s!
So he taught us how to calculate it and its importance, because it turns out the car can handle a lot more jerk than the humans inside!
jvm___ · 1h ago
Apparently the trick for roller coasters is to keep the passengers hearts in the same plane so they don't perceive the ride as jerky.
aidenn0 · 31m ago
Unless you are in Poland; then you need to keep the Poles in the right-hand plane or it will be unstable.
derbOac · 1h ago
I'm too young to be a benchmark but I remember the former meaning having a connotation of being annoying to or causing problems for others, but inadvertently so. As in, you're a dimwit who means no harm, but does so because you're a dimwit. But maybe by that time the transformation was already underway.
jp57 · 1h ago
Here’s the sort of spooky thing. It’s not just that there are multiple generations who’ve never known a “jerk” was once a simpleton or sap. It’s that some of the folks who used to use it that way don’t remember that they did. When I asked my mom to define the word this week, she used the modern meaning, with no apparent recollection of her former firm conviction that a jerk was a dope, dodo, or dimwit.
I am gen-X and I have no recollection of that former meaning at all. I was 10 or 11 years old when the movie The Jerk came out, and I recall being mildly confused about the fact that he didn't really seem like a jerk, and sort of thinking that he must be acting that way on purpose.
Tagbert · 38m ago
I was an adult in my twenties when that movie came out and thought the title was odd as it didn’t seem to fit him. Maybe I had already transitioned from idiot to mild asshole.
bee_rider · 18m ago
> Maybe I had already transitioned from idiot to mild asshole.
Well, happens to us all eventually, haha.
rufus_foreman · 58m ago
I have the same memory but no idea if that is a real memory or a false one. Being Gen X, most of my meaning for the word jerk came from Devo and the Circle Jerks.
humblepie · 10m ago
Reminds me of Albert Fish.
bigstrat2003 · 1h ago
I don't know why, but I went into this thinking it was going to be about soda jerks.
JKCalhoun · 1h ago
Had to go to the comments in the linked post to find the reference to the soda jerk. And "jerking" was apparently pulling on the (seltzer) tap.
I suppose if "soda jerk" was thought to be a menial job (reminded of one of the threads in the film, "The Best Years of Our Lives" (1946)) ... then the original meaning of "jerk" as a loser might have come from that.
simondotau · 1h ago
I went into this thinking it was going to be about culinary spices. But I had just finished watching a video on jerk chicken so my mind was already in the wrong place…
tayo42 · 1h ago
Don't get what people mean by jerking chicken when they make jerk chicken. Just applying spices I guess?
saltcured · 31m ago
And is it a contiuum where it eventually becomes quite jerky?
phkahler · 44m ago
So the movie quote says the character was a pumpkin, but definitely not a jerk. Isn't that movie from the late 70s? So the shift took place by then. Or did the movie somehow redefine it?
aidenn0 · 33m ago
The article that TFA quotes has a much more thorough description:
In 1979, kids may have been using it to mean "asshole" but the writers were in their 30s and definitely meant it to mean "idiot"
By the end of the '80s, the "idiot" usage seems to be completely gone.
seeknotfind · 1h ago
If you've seen Steve Martin's The Jerk, you'd know he becomes a real jerk in the modern sense during the movie.
No comments yet
tokyolights2 · 1h ago
I wonder how much of it is that in today's society it is worse to be disagreeable than it is to be inept.
pavel_lishin · 1h ago
Makes you wonder what other words have changed meaning right under your nose, without you noticing.
andrewmcwatters · 27m ago
The term "racist" used to mean someone who believed that one's race, or ethnic background was superior to another's. It was a form of belief in racial supremacy.
It didn't mean that someone used race as a form of prejudice. But for decades this hasn't been the case, and it is almost exclusively used to describe someone who uses prejudice or discriminates others on the basis of race or ethnicity.
And now we no longer have a colloquial or formal single word for someone who holds racial supremacist views, because the two ideas have commingled.
kristofferR · 42m ago
Jamaican jerk is really nice.
mc32 · 1h ago
A possible reason people forget the previous meaning despite having used it with the old meaning is that they may have understood and used the new meaning for ages but used the old meaning in more formal settings.
I prefer the term "douchebag" for its inclusivity. People of all ages know you're calling the person an asshole. I've also noticed Mormons are less offended by "douchebag" than "asshole".
tunesmith · 1h ago
Too bad it's misogynistic. I'm not sure you already knew that. If I were rude enough to call you a name, I wonder what term I could use that would work either way!
bezier-curve · 1h ago
As a gay man, I disagree. I think it's a word that describes someone who doesn't consider others without realizing it.
gausswho · 1h ago
You could try scumbag, but you might not want to know what it originally meant.
https://thehabit.co/nimrod-hectoring-maudlin-eponymns-and-pe...
I have also seen the argument that our contemporary distinction between moral and intellectual wisdom itself is something we as readers unconsciously impose on the text, with the distinction not prominently drawn in the ancient Jewish view(s).*
This means that "Fool" moved from a meaning close to "an objectionable or obnoxious person" toward "a person without intellectual wisdom" over centuries, while "jerk" apparently has gone the opposite direction within just a few recent decades.
* I'm far from an expert at this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrud_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrud
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsippa
Either way, Bugs Bunny used it sarcastically to describe Elmer Fudd, and here we are.
But making poor decisions and offending god is not particularly noteworthy for a figure in genesis. Possibly the most interesting thing about genesis as a piece of literature is that making horrible god-offending choices is quite routine and the figures are not understood as less important because of it, nor more important in spite of it, but simply important for unrelated reasons that cannot be changed by the quality of their judgement or morality of their actions.
> “I always thought jerk meant asshole. At least I thought I always thought that, although the quotes you cite seem to suggest otherwise. So to answer your question: I have no idea. You may be right!”
Clown can mean jerk in either sense. “Who’s this idiot?” means something closer to asshole. In old movies you’ll hear someone called “a selfish fool” or “inconsiderate fool,” where fool means something closer to asshole than fool as we usually use it.
Maybe the underlying issue is that it’s hard to tell someone acting obnoxiously because they don’t know better from someone deliberately indifferent or malicious, and the consequences are often the same.
Possibly also because of the phonetic similarity with "ciao"?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/17tzcl5/comment/k915... says
> I certainly use it as a goodbye - typically after meeting someone in the street and stopping to chat, but also generally. Also as an informal signoff for email and saying goodbye over telephone.
>
> 64M British, brought up in London.
Now, I'm having second thoughts. Would I say it to a baker after buying a pastry? Yes. If I ran into a friend while out on a trip would I say it? No, I don't think so, but do I? Maybe as in "good seeing you"? How confusing.
• Position is where you are at any moment. If you're not moving, your position doesn't change.
• Velocity is how quickly your position changes. If you are doing 30 MPH on a perfectly straight road with no stops and starts, you may not even notice you're moving until you look out the window.
• Acceleration is how quickly your velocity changes. It's the force that makes you feel like you are being pushed back into your seat, for example when your velocity increases from 30 MPH to 60 MPH.
• Jerk is how quickly the acceleration changes. It's the force that makes your head snap back against the headrest. A good driver will change acceleration slowly to reduce this effect. If there is too much jerk, it may mean that your driver is being a jerk.
It always confused me when my grandparents would call someone who was perfectly nice a "jerk", and it wasn't until I watched the Steve Martin movie four or five years ago that I understood why.
My Cousin Vinnie is an example that holds up still. No current events, no racist jokes, just typical social interactions that are still relevant.
OTOH it was a moderately-budgeted, somewhat clever comedy, those have trouble getting made today.
> Why not?
M. Emmett Walsh, Carl Reiner, Maurice Evans and Jackie Mason are all dead, for one reason.
> The Jerk (1979) "For Theater Owners Only" Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GZMbj8dt1o
It’s hard to be this bad intentionally, and it somehow wraps around to being good again, and that’s knowing it’s an ad and the premise is suspect. Steve Martin is that good.
It raises an interesting point that I’ll put to the projectionists of HN:
Were there really trailers intended for the theater owners only? It seems absurd on its face, but I’m willing to believe that it’s been tried before, and definitely has since. I mean, ad targeting already exists, but it was probably a bit harder to do back in the day.
That’s enough for this content hole.
So he taught us how to calculate it and its importance, because it turns out the car can handle a lot more jerk than the humans inside!
I am gen-X and I have no recollection of that former meaning at all. I was 10 or 11 years old when the movie The Jerk came out, and I recall being mildly confused about the fact that he didn't really seem like a jerk, and sort of thinking that he must be acting that way on purpose.
Well, happens to us all eventually, haha.
I suppose if "soda jerk" was thought to be a menial job (reminded of one of the threads in the film, "The Best Years of Our Lives" (1946)) ... then the original meaning of "jerk" as a loser might have come from that.
In 1979, kids may have been using it to mean "asshole" but the writers were in their 30s and definitely meant it to mean "idiot"
By the end of the '80s, the "idiot" usage seems to be completely gone.
No comments yet
It didn't mean that someone used race as a form of prejudice. But for decades this hasn't been the case, and it is almost exclusively used to describe someone who uses prejudice or discriminates others on the basis of race or ethnicity.
And now we no longer have a colloquial or formal single word for someone who holds racial supremacist views, because the two ideas have commingled.