I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless:
>Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality
Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not signal, interestingly). Most stealers and many other malware families use telegram to exfiltrate data and stolen credentials. It's also used as public announcement channels for criminal groups. Telegram ignores all reports about known malicious chats, despite it being easily provable, not to mention it's not e2e encrypted.
At this point this is not resisting censorship but knowingly profiting from crime. Continuing the analogy, it's like post office was sending mails for terrorists, despite police staying in the hallway and begging them to stop that.
(my job is related to anti-malware and cybercrime prevention)
aaomidi · 37s ago
Then ban the app.
izzydata · 12m ago
I assume this is just a police state overreach rather than genuine intent to stop crime. They must know that anyone actually engaging in criminal activity is going to not be caught by this because they use other forms of encrypted communication.
bccdee · 5m ago
It'd be extremely easy to circumvent, too. Since the scanning runs client-side on images uploaded into the messenger, you just need an app to mangle and unmangle images. XOR the pixels in your payload with a picture of static, then do it again on the other side.
It does not need to be particularly secure—the messages are still E2E encrypted so long as nothing trips the client-side scanner.
philipallstar · 7m ago
Continent-wide police overreach.
olgeni · 32m ago
Every message will be scanned, except for von der Leyen's contract negotiations via SMS :D
hsuduebc2 · 44s ago
It seems we can't lag behind in making other people lives miserable too.
tHinK aBouT tHe ChIldReN
Havoc · 17m ago
Thank god AI never makes mistakes…
I pity whoever is going to be the first false positive guinea pig for this csam process. Functionally a guilty (as decided by algo) until proven innocent logic
Cartoxy · 34m ago
This seam like a hopeless endeavor. If circumvention takes little to no effort the people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM.
And everyone else will just hate the burdensome bloat, etc.
If you know your not a theif having your bags checked after paying is an annoyance
9rx · 11m ago
> people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM.
Does its prevention even help anyway? The adult porn industry is regularly criticized for seeing people choose it over real sexual relationships. Conceivably the same could hold true for CSAM. As in, if you can't access it, you're going to go get the real thing instead.
The narrative that it prevents child abuse sounds good in theory, but what does the data actually tell us?
Cartoxy · 5m ago
I think that actually access does beget creep and indulge.
Not always but often.
You think the amount of Pea Dough would go up with abolition. Doubts from me.
NoMoreNicksLeft · 3m ago
Even if it were true (and it might be) that these people would commit less-or-none abuse if they can continue to have access to the csam, the existence of the csam itself necessitates abuse. It seems akin to child sacrifice. Whose kid must be tormented so that other kids can go unmolested?
That said, not sure that draconian, ubiquitous surveillance is the correct (or even effective) solution to the problem.
10298373 · 5m ago
The data tells us that many child abusers are caught with CSAM as well, so it does jack shit to keep them from abusing kids,
Take your CSAM apologia somewhere else.
No comments yet
gjsman-1000 · 6m ago
> what does the data actually tell us?
The anecdotal evidence is that most child abusers started with CSAM and continued escalation from there; not that they would have been abusers except for CSAM.
While it has never been proven to be a casual link, Ted Bundy, Brian Mitchell, and now Bryan Kohberger all accessed violent pornography before taking their actions.
9rx · 1m ago
However, the anecdotal evidence around the regular adult porn industry is that users go in the opposite direction. The data is abundantly clear that people, especially young people, are having less sex, all while porn consumption has increased substantially. Likewise, causality hasn't been proven, but it is likely the most compelling answer.
Why it is it different?
At what rate have child abuses declined?
philipallstar · 11m ago
Having your shoes checked before a flight is also an annoyance!
Cartoxy · 6m ago
Well. It is if you don't have a bomb isn't it? You trade it for your safety but since you don't die in a firey crash if the person 3 streets over is CSAMing its kinda unfair comparison
andrepd · 6m ago
The ridiculously _opaque_ and un-democratic EU wants your messages to be _transparent_. It's almost too on the nose to be satire.
formerly_proven · 7m ago
The overall policymaking direction of the EU can be summarized aptly: Pride cometh before the fall.
philipallstar · 48m ago
Thank goodness the EU is regulating dangerous communication.
baal80spam · 3m ago
Ditto, I feel safer already!
superkuh · 27m ago
Seems like all regions of the world all falling into their own particular flavors of authoritarian fascism. EU's better than most but this is absolutely draconian. We all know this won't actually be feasible to implement but the end result of of this infeasibility will be a status quo where everyone is guilty of a crime by default when needed.
echelon_musk · 13m ago
> won't actually be feasible to implement
Why wouldn't it be feasible to implement? Sadly, I don't share your optimism.
evoseven · 5m ago
Fascism is an ideology very different from the controlled liberal-capitalism of the EU. There is absolutely no push to reduce individualism so it's very wrong to use "fascism".
integralid · 12m ago
As an EU citizen I don't believe chat control will ever happen. We already had mass protests in my country during the last 20 years against internet and population control, and we will again if this becomes close to reality.
Maybe I'm delusional and I'll be severely disappointed I'm my country and the EU, but I don't think so. Who knows, time will tell.
>Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality
Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not signal, interestingly). Most stealers and many other malware families use telegram to exfiltrate data and stolen credentials. It's also used as public announcement channels for criminal groups. Telegram ignores all reports about known malicious chats, despite it being easily provable, not to mention it's not e2e encrypted.
At this point this is not resisting censorship but knowingly profiting from crime. Continuing the analogy, it's like post office was sending mails for terrorists, despite police staying in the hallway and begging them to stop that.
(my job is related to anti-malware and cybercrime prevention)
It does not need to be particularly secure—the messages are still E2E encrypted so long as nothing trips the client-side scanner.
tHinK aBouT tHe ChIldReN
I pity whoever is going to be the first false positive guinea pig for this csam process. Functionally a guilty (as decided by algo) until proven innocent logic
If you know your not a theif having your bags checked after paying is an annoyance
Does its prevention even help anyway? The adult porn industry is regularly criticized for seeing people choose it over real sexual relationships. Conceivably the same could hold true for CSAM. As in, if you can't access it, you're going to go get the real thing instead.
The narrative that it prevents child abuse sounds good in theory, but what does the data actually tell us?
Not always but often. You think the amount of Pea Dough would go up with abolition. Doubts from me.
That said, not sure that draconian, ubiquitous surveillance is the correct (or even effective) solution to the problem.
Take your CSAM apologia somewhere else.
No comments yet
The anecdotal evidence is that most child abusers started with CSAM and continued escalation from there; not that they would have been abusers except for CSAM.
While it has never been proven to be a casual link, Ted Bundy, Brian Mitchell, and now Bryan Kohberger all accessed violent pornography before taking their actions.
Why it is it different?
At what rate have child abuses declined?
Why wouldn't it be feasible to implement? Sadly, I don't share your optimism.
Maybe I'm delusional and I'll be severely disappointed I'm my country and the EU, but I don't think so. Who knows, time will tell.