> My parents never had financial drama. My dad was an elementary school teacher and then a school administrator in Victoria. My mom stayed at home to raise me and my brother. We were comfortable. My parents owned our home.
This is the part that always gets me mad (and jealous!). How the previous generation was able to just casually cruise along and live comfortably, where the same employment situation (1/2 of the adults in the household working, as a schoolteacher no less) results in crippling poverty today. I wonder if it's possible to make it even worse for Gen-Z and the next generations. Sadly, I'm sure we'll find out.
quantummagic · 10h ago
> How the previous generation was able to just casually cruise along and live comfortably..
This is a very skewed perception of reality, one that we'd all do better to moderate. There was indeed a relatively small population that were the beneficiaries of a confluence of factors (technology, geopolitics, demographics, etc), that let them live as you describe. But it was an anomalous miracle that was confined to a select few Westerners, for a very short time span. And MOST of the previous generation were living in pre-industrial subsistence farming communities spread around the world, like countless generations that went before.
That concentrated wealth has now been spread to other people around the world, and means that we don't get to live like kings, while the rest of the world lives in squalor. There will always be wealth inequality, and it's easy to see those who are living like near-gods around us, but in general, the world is much more fair today, and the wealth is spread to a much higher percentage of the world's population, than ever before.
like_any_other · 10h ago
> But it was an anomalous miracle that was confined to a select few Westerners, for a very short time span.
You say that, but the US per capita GDP, adjusted for inflation and PPP and anything else you care to throw at it, has only increased since then, and not by a small amount.
atmavatar · 6h ago
Are we sure per capita GDP is the measure we want to use, though? Doesn't that just take the overall GDP and divide by population?
When I look at median income over time versus per capita GDP over time, adjusting both for inflation, they're both increasing, but they're also diverging because the bulk of the gains are concentrated at the top.
That is as big a reason people are having a hard time making ends meat nowadays as anything. Unfortunately, fixing that trend will require reversing most of the tax code changes made in the last half century and a lot of aggressive anti trust action - i.e., breaking up markets allowed to consolidate too much.
I don't see any of that happening without a clean sweep of DC, though.
like_any_other · 6h ago
> Are we sure per capita GDP is the measure we want to use, though?
Oh I completely agree that GDP is a terrible measure of prosperity (and even median income is lacking, as you noticed). But I was not using it to measure individual/median prosperity, but the overall material wealth of the country, to debunk the assertion that a single teacher's salary could comfortably sustain a family then only because of a unique, brief set of circumstances that materially enriched the US.
ryandrake · 5h ago
We always have to be careful with per capita averages. If one billionaire increased his prosperity by $10B, and the other 400 million people decreased theirs by $10 each, we would say the country's average prosperity increased.
vizzier · 9h ago
Sure, but the material demand on almost everything is now driven by 3B people across the east of asia, no longer just the 1B or so people in the anglosphere/western Europe.
like_any_other · 9h ago
Does that explain anything? Wouldn't it make the inflation/PPP-adjusted per-capita GDP lower, since those take into account prices growth from increased demand?
maxerickson · 7h ago
Are you arguing that the larger market should make things cheaper?
graemep · 10h ago
I do not think that really explains it.
For one thing you are arguing that living standards have fallen in rich countries because the wealth is more spread out. The numbers say that both rich countries and the world as a whole have better off.
It is more about the cost of things that are in limited supply (land, for example) and the distribution of wealth within those countries.
quantummagic · 10h ago
The limited supply is because natural resources (especially oil) are now competed for by a much larger percentage of the world (ie. higher demand). Even the population of the US is much larger, contributing to the same result. The outsized wealth of Americans from a generation or two ago, was a mirage, and an incredible aberration in history; predicated on the exploitation, and relatively unfettered extraction of resources from around the world.
graemep · 10h ago
The numbers say (inflation adjusted) per capita GDP is a lot higher in just every developed country than it was a generation or two ago. If inflation was the reason, as you suggest, that would not be the case.
ryandrake · 10h ago
It's almost as if per capita GDP isn't a great measurement of general quality of life.
quantummagic · 10h ago
I never said it had anything to do with inflation. There are a lot of factors, as I said, geopolitics, demographics, emerging technologies and industrialization, etc. But it is ridiculous to think that supply and demand has nothing to do with where we find ourselves. There are certain fixed or constrained resources (land, etc) that more people are competing for today than ever before. The world population has doubled (or more) since the glory days of the USA, if nothing else.
api · 5h ago
Most of those people used far less energy than we do today. They had less tech, less manufactured goods, smaller houses, etc.
nine_zeros · 9h ago
> That concentrated wealth has now been spread to other people around the world, and means that we don't get to live like kings, while the rest of the world lives in squalor.
This is untrue because the rest of the world also produced wealth that the West has a share of - due to being early investors. The West became wealthier when the rest of the world became wealthier.
But, WHO in the West became wealthier? This is the main question. The wealth clearly did not trickle down to the middle class or poors.
From the numbers, is it evident that shareholders became wealthier - especially large shareholders in the West - even when productivity and profits increased, the earnings of workers did not increase proportionately.
To me it seems futile to try to keep coming up with theories when the solution is as simple as higher taxes on the rich and zero taxes for the poor.
throwawayoldie · 7h ago
I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, poor people can't afford to buy politicians.
constantcrying · 11h ago
Maybe I do not understand Canada. But 2.8k in income seems solid middle class with a lot of flexibility. It is a pretty good salary as a software engineer in the beginning of your career, at least here in Germany.
ryandrake · 11h ago
She points out the average monthly rent for a one-bedroom apartment in her area is more than $2,000, so that doesn't leave a lot left over to live on.
No comments yet
jmye · 4h ago
I read stories like this, and while I’m sympathetic to the fact that shit is expensive and that really sucks for some people, I can’t help but see “I’m allergic to toxic workplaces [and all workplaces are toxic]” as a huge, neon sign, pointing at the biggest issue.
Sorry, if every single place you ever work is “toxic”, it’s not likely the workplaces. It’s a serious personal issue. If you don’t want to deal with that, that’s fine, but you’re going to end up on the fringes, whether you think that’s right/wrong/fair/unfair.
At some point, it seems like you should face the fact that this is your life because you chose it.
supportengineer · 11h ago
"Working Poor" in the Bay Area means being a mere single-digit millionaire.
throwawayoldie · 7h ago
Please clarify if you're trolling, being sarcastic, or if you actually believe this. In any case, it's not so.
Moomoomoo309 · 4h ago
Please, go on Zillow and look at what rent prices actually are. They're expensive, but not that expensive.
This is the part that always gets me mad (and jealous!). How the previous generation was able to just casually cruise along and live comfortably, where the same employment situation (1/2 of the adults in the household working, as a schoolteacher no less) results in crippling poverty today. I wonder if it's possible to make it even worse for Gen-Z and the next generations. Sadly, I'm sure we'll find out.
This is a very skewed perception of reality, one that we'd all do better to moderate. There was indeed a relatively small population that were the beneficiaries of a confluence of factors (technology, geopolitics, demographics, etc), that let them live as you describe. But it was an anomalous miracle that was confined to a select few Westerners, for a very short time span. And MOST of the previous generation were living in pre-industrial subsistence farming communities spread around the world, like countless generations that went before.
That concentrated wealth has now been spread to other people around the world, and means that we don't get to live like kings, while the rest of the world lives in squalor. There will always be wealth inequality, and it's easy to see those who are living like near-gods around us, but in general, the world is much more fair today, and the wealth is spread to a much higher percentage of the world's population, than ever before.
You say that, but the US per capita GDP, adjusted for inflation and PPP and anything else you care to throw at it, has only increased since then, and not by a small amount.
When I look at median income over time versus per capita GDP over time, adjusting both for inflation, they're both increasing, but they're also diverging because the bulk of the gains are concentrated at the top.
That is as big a reason people are having a hard time making ends meat nowadays as anything. Unfortunately, fixing that trend will require reversing most of the tax code changes made in the last half century and a lot of aggressive anti trust action - i.e., breaking up markets allowed to consolidate too much.
I don't see any of that happening without a clean sweep of DC, though.
Oh I completely agree that GDP is a terrible measure of prosperity (and even median income is lacking, as you noticed). But I was not using it to measure individual/median prosperity, but the overall material wealth of the country, to debunk the assertion that a single teacher's salary could comfortably sustain a family then only because of a unique, brief set of circumstances that materially enriched the US.
For one thing you are arguing that living standards have fallen in rich countries because the wealth is more spread out. The numbers say that both rich countries and the world as a whole have better off.
It is more about the cost of things that are in limited supply (land, for example) and the distribution of wealth within those countries.
This is untrue because the rest of the world also produced wealth that the West has a share of - due to being early investors. The West became wealthier when the rest of the world became wealthier.
But, WHO in the West became wealthier? This is the main question. The wealth clearly did not trickle down to the middle class or poors.
From the numbers, is it evident that shareholders became wealthier - especially large shareholders in the West - even when productivity and profits increased, the earnings of workers did not increase proportionately.
To me it seems futile to try to keep coming up with theories when the solution is as simple as higher taxes on the rich and zero taxes for the poor.
No comments yet
Sorry, if every single place you ever work is “toxic”, it’s not likely the workplaces. It’s a serious personal issue. If you don’t want to deal with that, that’s fine, but you’re going to end up on the fringes, whether you think that’s right/wrong/fair/unfair.
At some point, it seems like you should face the fact that this is your life because you chose it.