>While self-selection is unlikely to explain the GAP, another potential artifact of data collection could be systematic differences in grooming practices between genders. Women typically invest more time and resources in grooming than men (Das & Stephen, 2011). However, most studies follow standardized photo-shooting protocols requiring participants to remove makeup and other enhancing accessories (e.g. Ebner et al., 2018; Kleisner et al., 2024; Torrance et al., 2014; Zhang et al., 2019). While some grooming practices, such as eyebrow shaping or long-term skincare routines, may not be
entirely controlled by these protocols, their impact is likely minimal.
I disagree with their premise that this impact is "likely minimal". I also would want to know what percentage "most studies" refers to.
loudmax · 3h ago
My theoretical explanation for the gap is that women are sensitive to much more than physical appearances when selecting a mate. When men select a mate, they over-index on physical characteristics, relative to women.
So, women will take into account a man's physical appearance, but also his social standing is also very important, plus perceived intelligence and dependability and so on.
When men look at women, physical beauty is paramount. Intelligence and so on is a plus, but not nearly to the extent that it is for women looking at men.
The other part of the explanation is menopause. Humans live long past the age of sexual fertility, which is somewhat unusual in the animal kingdom. Presumably, ancient human social structures made it beneficial to have grandparents around, in a way that does not exist for most other animals. Relative to other species, this puts more evolutionary pressure on human males to seek out females that are of reproductive age, and ignore older women.
The combination of these factors means that female physical appearance comes out as a prime selector in humans, in a way that it doesn't for other animal species. Male physical appearance is also significant, but relatively less important because of other factors, especially a male's status in the social hierarchy.
Anyway, that's my explanation, but I wouldn't hold any of this as a firm belief. Coming up with evolutionary psychological explanations for sex differences is easy. Actually testing them is much harder.
beAbU · 1h ago
> Humans live long past the age of sexual fertility, which is somewhat unusual in the animal kingdom
Interesting take. Do you reckon this happened for long enough in human history that it's had an impact on the evolution on the male psyche?
I'm under the impression that it's only in the last 1000 years or so where life beyond 30-40 years started to become the norm.
jappgar · 1h ago
HN is not a good place to ask questions on Anthropology, so I'd encourage you to read primary source materials.
You have a common misconception about human longevity. The "average" lifespan of humans was only 30 -40 years because very young humans would frequently die from disease or accidents. Humans have been capable of living to 70+ years for many millenia, it was just rare. 50 yearold humans were not rare though. The average is low because of infant and childhood mortality.
delichon · 3h ago
I read a claim that most male to female transitions are about wanting to become an object of desire, and most female to male transitions are to avoid being an object of desire.
I've never knowingly even met a trans person and have no basis to judge. Does this ring true or false?
IAmBroom · 3h ago
I have two friends who are FTM. One is busy putting together the outfit of his dreams for an awards ceremony. The other is strikingly handsome, and dresses so masculine-dandy-perfect he looks like a male model waiting for a fashion shoot.
Just two data points, but I have zero reason to believe what sounds like transphobic rationalization.
I personally can't comprehend why anyone would want to change their gender, but my dogs can't comprehend why I like salads. Nonetheless, they let me enjoy my dinner. I try to be like them.
KronisLV · 3h ago
Asked trans friends, doesn’t seem to be the case. More about often being very uncomfortable with the bodies and/or role in society they had, dysphoria and all that.
I guess also most cis folks would enjoy being attractive, whereas when it becomes more external (attention from others) then it’s more of a mixed bag, since some of it can be very much unwanted.
I doubt many people want to be the object of desire of some random creeps on the street or have some relationships be ruined because that’s all the other people consider.
harimau777 · 3h ago
I think that is likely complicated by the fact that, at least in modern Western society, wanting to be attractive/desired is itself considered a feminine trait.
So for example, someone assigned male at birth wanting to be attractive/desired is not necessarily different than them wanting to live the female role in our society.
wickedsight · 3h ago
> someone assigned male at birth wanting to be attractive/desired is not necessarily different than them wanting to live the female role in our society.
What even is this idea? If we take the target audience of men who are loudest about wanting to be 'real men', the Andrew Tate (and the like) followers. These people spend hours at the gym to be desired. They wear tight shirts to show off their muscles to be desired. They wear designer shoes and shirts to be desired. They have weekly barber visits to be desired.
Does that mean all these men want to live the female role in society? I don't think so, since that's the exact thing they claim to oppose.
watwut · 2h ago
> These people spend hours at the gym to be desired.
They spend hours at the gym to impress other men and compete with them. It has squat zero with what women desire.
malwrar · 3h ago
> object of desire
I feel like that frames the transgender identity as something performative, rather than something felt. I think transitions are experienced much more personally than just as a statement to society, or an attempt to gain privileges within it.
asmor · 3h ago
That sounds like Blanchard's autogynephilia, which is widely disputed and rejected by most trans people and other sexologists alike.
strken · 3h ago
It sounds nothing like autogynephilia to me, although it still sounds like bullshit.
asmor · 3h ago
The reverse for trans men isn't, but "trans women transition to male gaze themselves" gets pretty close.
dfxm12 · 3h ago
Anecdotally, no.
PaulHoule · 3h ago
A transgender friend of mine for college was certain she was a girl when she was a child, she hadn’t had time to be exposed to all the men-vs-women BS, at least not directly.
styxfrix · 3h ago
I'm nonbinary, not mtf/ftm. that claim is wrong though. trans people, similar to most, have their gender as part of their identity. however, their body displays a different gender. they then seek to make their body match their identity.
the idea is similar to viewing one-self's identity as having clear skin but having tons of pimples which people constantly comment on (via pronouns). transitions clear the skin
IAmBroom · 3h ago
Interesting analogy.
nemomarx · 3h ago
I think that's over simplifying it a lot, obviously dysphoria and other needs come first, but you could read some Andrea Long Chu for a perspective on trans theory like that? Better than Blanchards take.
No idea on the men, though. There's certainly trans men writing gender theory but I don't think I've seen a take on male attractiveness come up in it much.
libraryofbabel · 2h ago
Oh god, don’t get me started on Andrea Long Chu. She is smart enough to be dangerous but says a lot of stuff just to be edgy and controversial which… let’s just say I don’t think that’s particularly helpful for trans people in the year 2025.
aaaja · 1h ago
Andrea Long Chu's perspective includes celebrated takes like:
> Sissy porn did make me trans.
Also:
> At the centre of sissy porn lies the asshole, a kind of universal vagina through which femaleness can always be accessed. Getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is.
And, according to Chu, the "barest essentials" of "femaleness" are:
> an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes
All of which I think says a lot about attitudes towards women from this particular subset of males.
k__ · 3h ago
I met a few trans men who weren't conventional attractive before transitioning, so they were mostly ignored by men.
stirfish · 3h ago
You may be misremembering the claim a bit. I suspect you read about how the kind of received attention changes, and attributed that to the reason for the change.
jitl · 3h ago
false
watwut · 3h ago
Afaik, this is not something trans people themselves would ever be saying, but what people who do not think being trans is a thing say about them.
krona · 3h ago
Unconvincing.
Why did the authors select the face as the determinant of attractiveness? AFAIK the human female focuses on the upper body in general, with nothing in particular. Cultural variations exist, obviously.
This (upper body strength, generally) would make sense for evolutionary reasons. It makes more sense than the (male) peacock's tail, for example.
Arnt · 3h ago
It's a meta study. Meta studies generally choose a scope for which there are many studies. I assume that there exist more studies of facial attractiveness than of upper body attractiveness. 30 seconds of googling agrees, but is, of course, 30 seconds.
yawpitch · 3h ago
Never met a single human female that would actively select upper body strength over a face they like the look of, but I guess YMMV.
sunflowerfly · 3h ago
Just look at the cover of “mom porn” books at the dollar store. They are mostly body builders with muscular bodies.
aaronbaugher · 2h ago
On forums where women talk about attractive male actors, there's a heavy emphasis on shoulders and arms. It's definitely a thing.
That's not to say they don't care about the face or other features, but those don't get nearly as much attention.
reedf1 · 3h ago
I don't think a cross-cultural meta-analysis properly controls for the cultural effect of gender attractiveness given we live in a (progressively more) globalized, interconnected, world.
aaaja · 53m ago
> Outside academia, our findings highlight how culturally embedded norms and gender-based expectations shape aesthetic judgments and influence societal perceptions.
> We propose that these biases stem from cultural norms linking femininity with beauty
This is probably it. The "beauty" industry, which almost entirely targets women and girls with its predatory messaging, is a multi-billion dollar market and they do everything they can to promote this as an ideology. To the point where it's become embedded in culture.
im3w1l · 3h ago
I think it may be because humans have a higher intelligence than other animals. This makes it possible for men to display genetic fitness in other ways than looks.
For women, in constrast, the most important thing to signal is their capability of carrying a baby to term, and the primary way they do that is through physical traits. Though with plastic surgery and cosmetics subverting the signal on the one hand, and with better medical science capable of saving mother and child from many issues on the other, it is becoming less relevant.
Edit: Though keep in mind that this is my speculation, and furthermore a broad strokes picture and there is huge individual variation.
4ndrewl · 4h ago
Did the authors take into account that humans have 'culture' (and structures of (male-dominated) power associated with it) whereas other species don't to any great extent?
trosi · 3h ago
They are not discounting the possibility that sociocultural factors play a role:
> What explains the GAP? While evolutionary frameworks have traditionally been the dominant lens through which the GAP has been viewed— assuming its existence without direct empirical evidence—these theories focus exclusively on opposite-sex attraction, mate selection, and reproductive success. Within these theoretical boundaries, explaining the variation in same-sex ratings and the cultural differences in the GAP becomes challenging, suggesting that factors beyond biological predispositions also play a role. Given these limitations, sociocultural factors and norms merit further consideration. As noted earlier, female beauty is idealized in many cultures and reinforced by media, advertising, and societal expectations. Internalized beauty standards may foster unconscious biases, leading to, or amplifying, the observed difference.
But the study is mainly concerned with verifying the existence of the gap.
Btw, a lot of animal hierarchies are also male-dominated.
4ndrewl · 3h ago
Not sure I understand the downvotes. We demonstrably have culture, including higher function language. The "other species" they mention as being the comparator don't.
meinersbur · 3h ago
Right from the abstract:
> Our findings confirm the existence of a robust “Gender Attractiveness Gap” (GAP), with female faces rated significantly more attractive than male faces across rater genders, cultural backgrounds, and portrayed ethnicities.
4ndrewl · 2h ago
That's a different thing. They are asserting this pattern exists in all human cultures, not that it's a feature of human cultures (vs other species, also as per the abstract)
jappgar · 1h ago
Downvotes because HN is essentially a knowitall collective and these types are very resistant to anything being "cultural" and not universal.
JimDabell · 3h ago
> Did the authors take into account
You could read the study to determine answers to questions like this. Instead you want somebody else to read the study and explain it to you. You should expect questions like this to be downvoted.
4ndrewl · 2h ago
I mean, it was a rhetorical question, but ok.
jinnert · 3h ago
It is interesting that, now the West has shifted to a matriarchal model, we are seeing a lot of young men optimising purely for physical attractiveness at the cost of success in fields we might traditionally identify with male success (career, wealth, sporting excellence, etc). Will we see "trophy husbands" in Gen Beta?
BoxFour · 3h ago
There’s a lot of incorrect assumptions packed into one sentence, but one point in particular stands out:
> we are seeing a lot of young men optimising purely for physical attractiveness at the cost of success in fields we might traditionally identify with male success
This doesn't align with observable trends: Consider the sustained growth in MMA’s popularity or the emergence of figures like Andrew Tate as clear counterexamples.
beeflet · 3h ago
I think those are reactions to a larger trend in the reverse direction
BoxFour · 3h ago
Which brings us back to the original issue:
> we are seeing a lot of young men optimising purely for physical attractiveness at the cost of success in fields we might traditionally identify with male success (career, wealth, sporting excellence, etc)
That assertion doesn’t hold up. Even if it described a previous generation, it doesn’t reflect what’s happening now.
anonym29 · 3h ago
Your counterexamples aren't mutually exclusive with a long-term shift in either mean or median male appearance expression overall.
BoxFour · 2h ago
What was said:
> we are seeing a lot of young men optimising purely for physical attractiveness at the cost of success in fields we might traditionally identify with male success (career, wealth, sporting excellence, etc)
That doesn’t reflect reality. Those fields (wealth, competitive sport) aren’t in decline among young men. Interest in them has grown considerably compared to previous generations, as evidenced by those counterexamples.
IX-103 · 3h ago
If we do, it won't be a new phenomenon. They've been around practically forever.
soco · 3h ago
"matriarchal model" quote please? Maybe I'm not in the west enough (Switzerland) but I definitely see pretty much the same power structure as ever, just with a few female managers and a few whining males. But I do see indeed a few trophy husbands - ordered in the same mail catalogue where the thousand times more brides are ordered.
yawpitch · 3h ago
Not sure what an actual matriarchy would look like, but I have a feeling it wouldn’t leave a casual rapist and sex offender — and noted friend of at least one pedophile — in charge of dropping his penis envy on Iran.
beeflet · 3h ago
How would a "true matriarchy" in your perspective handle the iranian nuclear situation then? Use some sort of Bene Gesserit mind control?
Trump is exactly the type of figure that the GP is saying would succeed in a matriarchy. He is pretty, charismatic, and says all the right things despite being inadequate in the fields of male-dominated competition. The "grab em by the pussy" comment is just a demonstration of his ability to woo women, hence "they let you do it".
In contrast, I would say that iran is patriarchal because men don't woo women directly, but control women through their relations with other men. The institution of marriage is regulated through the state.
IAmBroom · 3h ago
> He is pretty
Ick.
beeflet · 2h ago
I was watching HyperNormalization last night with my boyfriend (great movie btw), and we both remarked how good looking he used to be compared to today. I mean, he's old now. A lot of comparisons are made to regan.
AnimalMuppet · 2h ago
> says all the right things
Seriously?
Charismatic I will give you. The actual content of what he says, though, is at best a very mixed bag.
soco · 1h ago
All the right things to get him elected and called pretty.
watwut · 3h ago
How are they pursuing look "at the cost of career, wealth"? In other studies, good looking men earn more and are more successful in negotiations.
jinnert · 2h ago
I shouldn't have made the two seem mutually exclusive. I think physical attractiveness is becoming a far higher priority for each successive generation of men while hard work, loyalty, dedication, etc are declining in perceived value, to the extent that these may even be viewed as the traits of a loser. We have abandoned the benefits of meritocracy, and young men are adapting to that. Rather than looksmaxxing in lieu of pursuing success, young men are looksmaxxing as it has become essential to success.
watwut · 2h ago
But "hard work, loyalty, dedication" are literally in opposition against career and wealth as goals and were for years. Modern business environment is not rewarding these properties and people who want to have a good career or wealth can not prioritize them.
Loyalty especially directly makes you less successful and basically a sucker. And it has nothing to do with gender or women, it is business no valuing. Hard work is only loosely related. Hard work and dedication on itself are not what makes your salary go up or makes you promoted. Understanding office politics does a lot more.
My point is, this is not the case of young men not valuing career and wealth. People who value career and wealth cant afford to be loyal.
im3w1l · 2h ago
My guess is that online dating in general and tinder in particular are key drivers of this. Predicting whether the trend will last is thus roughly synonymous with predicting the survival and evolution of these services.
I disagree with their premise that this impact is "likely minimal". I also would want to know what percentage "most studies" refers to.
So, women will take into account a man's physical appearance, but also his social standing is also very important, plus perceived intelligence and dependability and so on.
When men look at women, physical beauty is paramount. Intelligence and so on is a plus, but not nearly to the extent that it is for women looking at men.
The other part of the explanation is menopause. Humans live long past the age of sexual fertility, which is somewhat unusual in the animal kingdom. Presumably, ancient human social structures made it beneficial to have grandparents around, in a way that does not exist for most other animals. Relative to other species, this puts more evolutionary pressure on human males to seek out females that are of reproductive age, and ignore older women.
The combination of these factors means that female physical appearance comes out as a prime selector in humans, in a way that it doesn't for other animal species. Male physical appearance is also significant, but relatively less important because of other factors, especially a male's status in the social hierarchy.
Anyway, that's my explanation, but I wouldn't hold any of this as a firm belief. Coming up with evolutionary psychological explanations for sex differences is easy. Actually testing them is much harder.
Interesting take. Do you reckon this happened for long enough in human history that it's had an impact on the evolution on the male psyche?
I'm under the impression that it's only in the last 1000 years or so where life beyond 30-40 years started to become the norm.
You have a common misconception about human longevity. The "average" lifespan of humans was only 30 -40 years because very young humans would frequently die from disease or accidents. Humans have been capable of living to 70+ years for many millenia, it was just rare. 50 yearold humans were not rare though. The average is low because of infant and childhood mortality.
I've never knowingly even met a trans person and have no basis to judge. Does this ring true or false?
Just two data points, but I have zero reason to believe what sounds like transphobic rationalization.
I personally can't comprehend why anyone would want to change their gender, but my dogs can't comprehend why I like salads. Nonetheless, they let me enjoy my dinner. I try to be like them.
I guess also most cis folks would enjoy being attractive, whereas when it becomes more external (attention from others) then it’s more of a mixed bag, since some of it can be very much unwanted.
I doubt many people want to be the object of desire of some random creeps on the street or have some relationships be ruined because that’s all the other people consider.
So for example, someone assigned male at birth wanting to be attractive/desired is not necessarily different than them wanting to live the female role in our society.
What even is this idea? If we take the target audience of men who are loudest about wanting to be 'real men', the Andrew Tate (and the like) followers. These people spend hours at the gym to be desired. They wear tight shirts to show off their muscles to be desired. They wear designer shoes and shirts to be desired. They have weekly barber visits to be desired.
Does that mean all these men want to live the female role in society? I don't think so, since that's the exact thing they claim to oppose.
They spend hours at the gym to impress other men and compete with them. It has squat zero with what women desire.
I feel like that frames the transgender identity as something performative, rather than something felt. I think transitions are experienced much more personally than just as a statement to society, or an attempt to gain privileges within it.
the idea is similar to viewing one-self's identity as having clear skin but having tons of pimples which people constantly comment on (via pronouns). transitions clear the skin
No idea on the men, though. There's certainly trans men writing gender theory but I don't think I've seen a take on male attractiveness come up in it much.
> Sissy porn did make me trans.
Also:
> At the centre of sissy porn lies the asshole, a kind of universal vagina through which femaleness can always be accessed. Getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is.
And, according to Chu, the "barest essentials" of "femaleness" are:
> an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes
All of which I think says a lot about attitudes towards women from this particular subset of males.
Why did the authors select the face as the determinant of attractiveness? AFAIK the human female focuses on the upper body in general, with nothing in particular. Cultural variations exist, obviously.
This (upper body strength, generally) would make sense for evolutionary reasons. It makes more sense than the (male) peacock's tail, for example.
That's not to say they don't care about the face or other features, but those don't get nearly as much attention.
> We propose that these biases stem from cultural norms linking femininity with beauty
This is probably it. The "beauty" industry, which almost entirely targets women and girls with its predatory messaging, is a multi-billion dollar market and they do everything they can to promote this as an ideology. To the point where it's become embedded in culture.
For women, in constrast, the most important thing to signal is their capability of carrying a baby to term, and the primary way they do that is through physical traits. Though with plastic surgery and cosmetics subverting the signal on the one hand, and with better medical science capable of saving mother and child from many issues on the other, it is becoming less relevant.
Edit: Though keep in mind that this is my speculation, and furthermore a broad strokes picture and there is huge individual variation.
> What explains the GAP? While evolutionary frameworks have traditionally been the dominant lens through which the GAP has been viewed— assuming its existence without direct empirical evidence—these theories focus exclusively on opposite-sex attraction, mate selection, and reproductive success. Within these theoretical boundaries, explaining the variation in same-sex ratings and the cultural differences in the GAP becomes challenging, suggesting that factors beyond biological predispositions also play a role. Given these limitations, sociocultural factors and norms merit further consideration. As noted earlier, female beauty is idealized in many cultures and reinforced by media, advertising, and societal expectations. Internalized beauty standards may foster unconscious biases, leading to, or amplifying, the observed difference.
But the study is mainly concerned with verifying the existence of the gap.
Btw, a lot of animal hierarchies are also male-dominated.
> Our findings confirm the existence of a robust “Gender Attractiveness Gap” (GAP), with female faces rated significantly more attractive than male faces across rater genders, cultural backgrounds, and portrayed ethnicities.
You could read the study to determine answers to questions like this. Instead you want somebody else to read the study and explain it to you. You should expect questions like this to be downvoted.
> we are seeing a lot of young men optimising purely for physical attractiveness at the cost of success in fields we might traditionally identify with male success
This doesn't align with observable trends: Consider the sustained growth in MMA’s popularity or the emergence of figures like Andrew Tate as clear counterexamples.
> we are seeing a lot of young men optimising purely for physical attractiveness at the cost of success in fields we might traditionally identify with male success (career, wealth, sporting excellence, etc)
That assertion doesn’t hold up. Even if it described a previous generation, it doesn’t reflect what’s happening now.
> we are seeing a lot of young men optimising purely for physical attractiveness at the cost of success in fields we might traditionally identify with male success (career, wealth, sporting excellence, etc)
That doesn’t reflect reality. Those fields (wealth, competitive sport) aren’t in decline among young men. Interest in them has grown considerably compared to previous generations, as evidenced by those counterexamples.
Trump is exactly the type of figure that the GP is saying would succeed in a matriarchy. He is pretty, charismatic, and says all the right things despite being inadequate in the fields of male-dominated competition. The "grab em by the pussy" comment is just a demonstration of his ability to woo women, hence "they let you do it".
In contrast, I would say that iran is patriarchal because men don't woo women directly, but control women through their relations with other men. The institution of marriage is regulated through the state.
Ick.
Seriously?
Charismatic I will give you. The actual content of what he says, though, is at best a very mixed bag.
Loyalty especially directly makes you less successful and basically a sucker. And it has nothing to do with gender or women, it is business no valuing. Hard work is only loosely related. Hard work and dedication on itself are not what makes your salary go up or makes you promoted. Understanding office politics does a lot more.
My point is, this is not the case of young men not valuing career and wealth. People who value career and wealth cant afford to be loyal.