I'm the original author of this content. I wrote it on the internal wiki at Google in 2007. Someone copied it and posted it at nohello.(something) after I left Google. It's made the front page of HN multiple times.
The discussions always split between the people who just want to get on with the conversation and the people who can't bring themselves to do that because they consider it unforgivably rude. The second group never seem to take the hint that the first interruption is an imposition in itself.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF · 2h ago
There’s more than two groups. Some people are just being friendly, behavior which is hard to exhibit when you primarily (or only) interact with someone over chat. Yes, some people are just being nervous around potentially breaching etiquette in an ironic way that happens to be a different breach of etiquette (for some, at least) but I just respond with “hi” strictly because I am interested in getting on with the conversation.
It would be rude to simply link this site (not blaming you) in response to a “hello” coming from a remote co-worker, or even a co-worker across the office who just didn’t want to walk over. They are just being friendly!
I am one who would prefer to just get on with the conversation but I also realize that’s not how everyone is and that’s okay; I should play nice with others if I want others to play nice with me and a simple “hey” in response is such an easy way to play nice.
Isamu · 2h ago
Ha, I’m another person that says “hey” in response, nice to know I’m not the only one with a preference for brief interruptions.
simonw · 2h ago
I've always been fascinated to learn more about cultural differences around this topic.
I've seen arguments in the past that different nationalities may have different norms around this kind of thing, in particular over whether it's polite to launch straight into a request for help without confirming the other person is available and receptive first.
There may be a power dynamics thing here too - if somebody is seen as being more "senior" there may be additional perceived constraints on how a conversation should be conducted.
Since you've been involved in conversations about this for more than 15 years now have you seen any credible evidence of cultural
differences that come into play here?
cxr · 1h ago
The relevant phrases to search and which were frequently encountered online circa 2010 are "high-context" and "low-context cultures".
dosnem · 2h ago
Sometimes you do it because if you just ask the question you get ignored but if you say hello and get a response ppl are less likely to ignore the second question. Thats the bigger reason than any rudeness reason i would think.
CGMthrowaway · 2h ago
This. The selfish point (there are other points too) of "hi" is to confirm you have their attention and to remove plausible deniability of "oops I missed your message."
cxr · 1h ago
Weird subthread.
> The selfish point (there are other points too) of "hi" is to confirm you have their attention
No one is unsure of the selfish/self-serving motivation behind the lone "hello". The singleminded self-centeredness at the expense of others is the _entire_ basis of the criticism.
This response is like encountering in a thread about lunch theft in the workplace, "Some people take food that isn't theirs because they didn't bring anything for lunch, and they see food that someone else brought sitting there in the fridge." The power of this response to be able to explain something not already understood is nil—and so is its exculpatory power.
> to remove plausible deniability of "oops I missed your message."
I'll dispute this. The overwhelming purpose is so the sender can confirm they have the receiver's attention so the sender knows whether to bother themselves with typing out the rest of their inquiry. They're happy to trade the negative consequences on others for a minor convenience to themselves.
jabroni_salad · 29m ago
I would be okay with this if the conversation actually demanded a realtime response. But I can't know that until I see the actual first message, and they usually don't.
emreb · 1h ago
I think it is more of a if you are not there right now, and won't be able to respond, I am not going to write it all to wait for an answer later. I think most people want to make sure someone is there to respond before committing to a conversation.
avemg · 1h ago
But I find THAT attitude to be quite rude. You are prioritizing your preferences when it's me that you're reaching out to for help. Nobody's saying you have to write a complete and detailed problem description in your first message, but give me something to know what i'm getting into.
BAD: Hey, you there?
GOOD: Hey, you there? I'm trying to do X but I'm running into some issues and I wanted to get your advice.
Once I've responded and you know you have my attention, then you commit to filling me in on the gory details.
currency · 1h ago
People either bring email etiquette (Hi, how are you, I need...") or phone etiquette (Hi, how are you?" ...) to chat.
Email etiquette has always seemed natural to me, but a lot of people read chat as a synchronous medium, so.
It's just another place where I need to have multiple modes on hand for different people.
macspoofing · 2h ago
There's another reason for 'hello' ... it's a way to make sure you have the other person's attention before launching into a topic or question.
JimDabell · 2h ago
That’s exactly what’s rude about it. Don’t make sure you have their attention. Just send the actual message.
If it’s urgent enough that the actual message isn’t enough, “Hello” isn’t going to cut it either.
CGMthrowaway · 2h ago
That's only rude sometimes. We don't typically talk to other people in real life without confirming their attention (e.g. via eye contact) first.
OkayPhysicist · 19m ago
That's because we're communicating synchronously in person. If you say something when I'm not listening to you, I will probably start listening midway through your statement, and miss potentially vital info. In a slack message, I can just read it again.
JimDabell · 1h ago
None of this discussion is about in-person conversations.
macspoofing · 2h ago
I didn't make a value judgment on the practice, but it is a reason why you may get a "hello" message.
cogman10 · 2h ago
Funnily, I've mostly gotten it at 3am. I've literally had 24h time lapse from the initial hello to actual question.
I've also had cases where I've immediately responded "hi" only to get the question about 1h later.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF · 2h ago
That’s a poor reason; I just say “hi” back and tab out until there is another message. They capture my attention with details.
kevindamm · 2h ago
If the conversation needs that, many think that indicates it should be an email, or a meeting, not a chat.
dosnem · 2h ago
No way that makes sense. Email is for external conversations. Meetings are hour long.
vel0city · 2h ago
If the notification bubble just says "hello" it's on the bottom of the stack of my priorities. If it's "hey, this alert came up..." then it's actually going to flag my attention.
If you want my attention give me a reason to give it.
jvanderbot · 3h ago
My wife, god bless her, is really good with people. I try very hard to mimic her, but this multi-round interaction has completely permeated how she interacts over tech, even with tech. I cannot manage it.
Her: "Alexa, add to shopping list". "OK, what should I add for you". "Peanut butter". "OK, peanut butter added, what else?". <long pause while the house has to be quiet until alexa times out>.
"It's currently raining would you like to see the forecast for tomorrow also I found this routine you might like would you like me to enable it"
writes peanut butter on a piece of paper
JdeBP · 2h ago
This is what you get when you don't check for PIPELINING in the EHLO response like you are supposed to. (-:
SirFatty · 3h ago
"Some people are TCP. Some are UDP."
Nailed it! This is going up on the wall in my office.
mariusor · 3h ago
> are UDP. some
:P
mafuy · 3h ago
Misses, sure. But it should be quite rare that the order is wrong. It would only happen if the route changes.
jvanderbot · 59m ago
Or, does "Alexa, add peanut butter to shopping list" fall under the UDP frame size? Joke reversed.
JdeBP · 24m ago
Your wife is possibly wondering why you send everything cleartext in one single frame and don't do challenge-response or any sort of state machine resynchronization between client and server. (-:
mariusor · 1h ago
Eh, comedic posts should probably be allowed some leeway in their attempt at being funny.
JdeBP · 29m ago
Especially as it's impossible to tell whether jvanderbot's "people" datagram got dropped by some intermediate hop in the UDP version or was never sent. (-:
TOGoS · 17m ago
That's why you put enough context in each packet that nobody gets confused if the order changes or some get missed.
TeMPOraL · 2h ago
And some people, like me, are... what do you call TCP but without initial handshake? Like:
----
Other person: Hi, what time was that thing?
Me: Hey, 14:00.
...
...
Me: Hey, 14:00!
...
...
Me: walks in their face Hey you, the thing you asked, it's at 14:00.
Other person: Yes yes, I heard you first time!
Me: boils internally, muttering to themselves so why the fsck didn't you say so?
----
Please don't hang on "Hello", but for $deity's sake, confirm reception of messages, especially in analog communication.
simonw · 2h ago
Weirdly I really enjoyed MrBeast's line on this in his leaked internal production memo:
"Since we are on the topic of communication, written communication also does not constitute communication unless they confirm they read it."
I think both methods are TCP in the sense that you’re getting some form of ACK. Maybe „some people have a larger MTU“ or „some people are jumbo frames“. Hmm, but that doesn’t sound great… „to each its own MTU.“ nah.Ok, I give up =P
bombcar · 3h ago
See, if you had Siri you'd be forced into the first anyway:
"Alexa add peanut butter to shopping list" "OK, what should list should I add to?" "shopping list" "Ok, what should I add for you" "Peanut butter" "Ok, playing Peanut Butter by the Royal Guardsmen on a HomePod you forgot you had"
danaris · 3h ago
My whole family uses Siri—both through our phones and through the HomePod mini in the kitchen—to add items to the shopping list.
Siri occasionally misunderstands the name of the item, or needs to ask who's speaking (when on the HomePod), or has trouble because the phone of the person asking has briefly dropped off the Wifi, but in the ~5 years we've had it, I can count on one hand the number of times adding has just failed with any pattern remotely like what you describe.
bombcar · 2h ago
For me it's 80% accurate (including sometimes I'm entirely surprised it heard above all the screaming and howling) and then 20% it's just hilariously horribly wrong.
drcongo · 3h ago
Let me guess, you have an American accent?
danaris · 2h ago
Well, mine personally shifts frequently to British—but yes; I can see that that could cause a problem for some people, especially if their accent is not a specific one that Siri's been trained on.
nunorbatista · 3h ago
This is not the first time I see this here and to be honest, I was in total agreement a few years ago. In principle, I still am.
Then I became a manager, I had to start dealing with more people, to navigate the enterprise environment and I understood that one of my strengths is to be understand people and to accommodate their ways of working. In this context, being hard with people that just say hello just doesn't make much sense to me anymore. People have busy schedules, they start conversations and are interrupted, they receive hundreds of notifications and have other meetings going on.
If the worst they do to me is to say hello and never talk to me again, I'm ok with accommodating this in my daily workflow.
nmeofthestate · 3h ago
>they start conversations and are interrupted
It's not about interruption really, it's about a style of using chat apps that wastes peoples' attention and is easily avoided.
> they receive hundreds of notifications
okay, so this nohello thing is good advice to help reduce the noise.
pas · 3h ago
not to mention that if someone is supposed to be a professional coordinator, they would benefit from being a good communicator. starting a discussion with "hi" and disappearing for minutes is absolutely disrespectful and shitty, not to mention the opposite of efficient.
they need to work on their time management.
SOLAR_FIELDS · 2h ago
I mean, maybe I’m rude but if someone just messages me Hi on slack I simply ignore it until they send something more substantial.
TeMPOraL · 2h ago
It's fine unless the other person is your superior. Too many managers are oblivious to the fact that their authority over other people's futures makes every interaction threatening by default.
e_i_pi_2 · 2h ago
> being hard with people that just say hello just doesn't make much sense to me anymore
This is the problem I run into, I want to just reply to any "Hey" message with a link to this page, but then I'm the one being rude. We just need a better way to let other people know that this isn't a good way to do async chat. I've heard of other people making their status message this site, so then people see it when they go to message you and it doesn't have to be explicitly brought up
> If the worst they do to me is to say hello and never talk to me again, I'm ok with accommodating this in my daily workflow
This I can't really get behind, because if they just send a hello it's implied that I then need to follow-up and find out what they were asking about
susam · 4h ago
A similar guideline has been around on IRC networks for as long as I can remember. Many channels include it in their 'topic' or have a bot that reminds users:
The first startup I worked at used IRC - well before slack etc. I hadn’t touched it since I was a teenager and think I managed to violate just about every internal channel guideline. Took me a minute to understand what “echan” meant.
emblaegh · 4h ago
My life hack for this kind of situation is to say “hello” back. Works every time.
pards · 3h ago
I have several responses depending on how ornery I'm feeling
1. Respond with, "Hello. How can I help?", or
2. Wait until 5:30pm then respond, "Hello" and close my laptop for the day
DrammBA · 1h ago
Lately I've been going with 3. No response, people that have something important eventually follow up their lonely hello with their actual question/issue, the rest just forget about it I guess so the conversation never starts.
hombre_fatal · 3h ago
I don't get what this achieves since the whole reason they sent you "hello" is that they want a TCP handshake before they get on with it. So sending hello back just acks the message and they will proceed which is what they wanted.
The annoyance in TFA is that you have to do the handshake at all.
hiAndrewQuinn · 2h ago
Actually, when you put it like that, sending 'hello' back might be the best thing you could do. They sent you a SYN, you send back and ACK, then the real conversation can begin.
I suddenly no longer agree with TFA. This makes way more sense to me in this light.
quietbritishjim · 1h ago
In what way is that better than "Hello. How do I do x?" If they never reply, that's of no practical difference from just sending "Hello" and not getting a reply.
In TCP, it's useful because it happens in a different layer of abstraction. Even then, QUIC was developed (partly) because it was realised there's no point waiting for the full SYN / SYN ACK / ACK before starting some of the higher-level exchange (although the early data transfer in QUIC is used for TLS initiation rather than application-level data).
hiAndrewQuinn · 16m ago
It's better because X might take a while to write correctly, and you might want some assurance that you have the other person's full attention first before you even send that message. It's a commitment mechanism of sorts.
kevindamm · 2h ago
The relevance of TFA is that this only works if the initiating party is still connected, and to make matters worse there is no ERR_SOCKET_CLOSED returned by most chat clients if that party got distracted before seeing the ACK. Then minutes or hours later they get back "hey sorry, missed your reply, ${QUERY}"
when they could have just included `${QUERY}` in the initial send, or at least `framing(${QUERY})`.
No comments yet
easton · 3h ago
Wave emoji reaction, then I go back to what I was doing until the rest of the question lands. It's quicker!
although these days I sometimes respond "how was your weekend" to continue the pleasantries :D
jvanderbot · 3h ago
It opens a synchronous channel, setting social expectations for somewhat realtime responses. Most of the time I treat chat like "small email", so this is abhorrent.
krisoft · 3h ago
> It opens a synchronous channel, setting social expectations for somewhat realtime responses.
But do you see how that is your choice? You can just type "hello", or a longer form of the same, and then go back to work. You can then check back in about an hour to see if they managed to describe what they are looking for.
You can always change yourself, while it is so much harder to change others that it is almost futile. The true source of your distress is not them saying hello, but your understanding of that social expectation of realtime responses.
danaris · 3h ago
> You can always change yourself, while it is so much harder to change others that it is almost futile.
This is a defeatist attitude.
Sure, there are some people who will refuse to change no matter what. But many—probably even most—people, if you explain that this is your preferred method of communication when they have a question for you to answer, will at least try to operate that way.
defraudbah · 3h ago
it does not, some people don't understand it. I tried every trick and one guy was still sending his hello's because it was the way he communicated. I told him twice, literally, that he cannot just say hello and wait for me to reply, and he apologized and still didn't get it.
the only working option is to ignore such people, you cannot teach people with reasoning, it never works
dkdbejwi383 · 3h ago
I’ll do the same - when I get around to it, which might be an hour or two after it was sent.
If the person on the other end then decides to draw out the small talk with “how are you” etc, it might take a few days for them to get an answer to their actual question, but that’s on them, it doesn’t bother me. I get to messages when I get to them. If they aren’t of substance I don’t care.
quchen · 4h ago
How are you?
I hope this message finds you well.
I have a question.
-------
It’s simply not a game I want to play. My mind recommends answering »state your business«, but my polite-mind tells me not to.
mbrd · 4h ago
If I'm feeling grumpy I don't respond, but if I have some patience left in the tank I'll use, "Hi, what's up?" which usually short-circuits the salutations.
SamPatt · 3h ago
Same. It's how I answer the phone too, depending on how well I know the caller. I don't think it's perceived as rude, with a friendly tone of voice.
hi_hi · 3h ago
This backfires on me, almost every time.
I reply in kind with "hello".
There can then be many hours to sometimes days.
Either they then reply AGAIN with "hello" (arghhh), or even worse, there is no reply, and I break asking what they want, and _maybe_ get a reply of "never mind, got it sorted" so I NEVER KNOW.
fkyoureadthedoc · 3h ago
My life hack is to ignore it completely and have several unread "hello" Teams messages from Indian dudes I never heard of. If I'm lucky they just never follow up.
quietbritishjim · 2h ago
That's what they want and expect. Then they'll ask you their question. I don't get your point.
4pkjai · 4h ago
When people give me a hello back I raise them a “how are you?”
macintux · 3h ago
It took me a depressingly long time to figure out that when people (offline) ask me how I am, they don’t expect, or want, an answer.
IshKebab · 4h ago
Fine thanks, how are you?
askew · 3h ago
askew is typing…
nubinetwork · 3h ago
Several people are typing...
drcongo · 3h ago
Mine is to respond immediately with a question that requires a long and technical answer that by the time they've finished writing has completely erased their question from their mind.
benhurmarcel · 2h ago
I don't understand why messaging apps send repeated notifications for multiple messages instead of staying silent for a time. You've notified once of the first message, it's enough for the next 30s.
darajava · 1h ago
This always bothered me. Maybe it’s an engagement thing?
rich_sasha · 50m ago
When I use IM at work, I basically end up using it like email half the time. Write "hello" at the top, then all what I want to know, all in a single message, so then it gets lengthy, so at the bottom I write something like "great, many thanks", and sign off for good measure.
Even when the convo turns interactive, half the time either me or the other guy has to drop off, often without warning. So after some waiting around, I'll write down, in async mode, all I want.
It always then feels like basically a different GUI/ API onto email. With more emojis and reactions and stickers and scented candles or whatnot.
msgodel · 3h ago
Hello was invented for phone conversations. It doesn't make sense if the conversation isn't verbal.
gregoriol · 3h ago
You can still say hi, with the first message of the day, that's a nice human touch, and not the point here: say hi + what you need to say, that's the point
msgodel · 3h ago
Good morning can be nice for that but if you actually have something to say make it the first part of the same message as the content.
Saying Hello or good morning and then spending multiple minutes composing your actual message while I'm attending you is extremely annoying.
Quite frankly though I don't think it makes sense to do any of that outside a group chat. Just say what you want to say and get out.
FinnKuhn · 2h ago
I just send it as one message. So something along the lines of:
Hi [Name],
[Message content]
antonchekhov · 54m ago
I don't understand why, if the recipient of the initial detached "hello" is annoyed at the communication tax of having to acknowledge it before the querier gets to the real point of the convo, why in the "preferred" example, he/she responds to their gratitude ("ta") with a "np"? That seems like just as much pointless communication noise, only at the other end of the chat. When I say thanks to anyone in real-life verbal communication, their (usually a grunt) "no problem" adds nothing.
busy_m · 4h ago
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Eric Steven Raymond
It's related, certainly, as are mine, Charles Cazabon's, and Mark-Jason Dominus's. But it's not addressing what the headlined page is, which is largely a thing that is a behavioural issue on interactive real-time chat fora.
The scenario described there would be considered harassment under modern Codes of Conduct. Describing the reaction as behaving like a "loser" is likely offensive itself.
atq2119 · 3h ago
While you're likely right in describing the status quo, it's unfortunate that it has come to that.
The one thing that's really objectionable in that section is the last part about people who attack or flame without apparent reason. Such people should be called out by other community members in the same way ESR describes for newcomers in the first part of the section.
TeMPOraL · 2h ago
Agreed. The excessive, unprovoked flaming is IMO a case in which people should intervene, as per earlier paragraph, "Community standards do not maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying them, visibly, in public." Other than that, spot on.
TeMPOraL · 2h ago
That's because that was not a required reading and the on-line communities (particularly around OSS) got overrun by people exhibiting the behavior in question.
rossant · 3h ago
I wonder how this comes across to younger members of the hacker or scientific dev communities today. The tone, while perhaps aligned with older norms of bluntness, might now be seen as needlessly harsh or even toxic by some. It raises the question of how values around communication and community have shifted over time.
ryukoposting · 3h ago
I'm 27, and it resonates. Doesn't seem like he's encouraging rude responses to bad online discourse etiquette, he's just saying those responses are likely to happen unless you follow this very reasonable set of rules.
blcknight · 3h ago
These topics are so important for junior engineers to grasp, because not only is it helpful for interacting with humans, providing the additional context to LLM's will get you much, much better answers.
I wish there was a good source of this information from a less polarizing figure.
stereolambda · 3h ago
People can choose not to be polarized by figures, especially where the controversies are firmly offtopic.
That being said I do find the tone of this guide somewhat annoying and condescending at times. It could use some editing to make it more impersonal and to the point. Justifications and explanations could be attached separately and most people won't read them anyway. When people ask poor questions, it's often precisely because they don't read longform text for some reason.
imiric · 3h ago
The unfortunate paradox is that the people who should understand and apply this won't bother reading it. For the rest of us, this is just common sense. So I don't think this document serves any purpose.
nirui · 1h ago
The example on the page don't really do it justice, because both of them are O(4), and the time delay is arbitrary.
The "" example should only consist of 3 operations: Dawn: REQUEST, Tim: RESPOND, Dawn: CLOSE. For example: "Hiya! What time was that thing?", "hey, 3:30", "Ta - seeya then!". Or even just 2, Dawn: REQUEST, Tim: RESPOND (auto close), this could imply that Dawn and Tim are really close, or really not close.
BTW: We are not designing reliable messaging protocols here folks. The chat software should tell if any message was lost.
Sheeny96 · 3h ago
This can be a cultural thing, at least in my experience. Particularly with Indian and African colleagues, it seems to be ubiquitous amongst them.
SOLAR_FIELDS · 2h ago
Yep I work with a fair amount of people from India and I can definitely concur anecdotally that this is something my Indian colleagues do more often. It’s a global thing in my experience but definitely more predominant in some cultures than others
K0balt · 3h ago
The converses already going over a TCP handshake. There is no reason to add another 5 layers down the application stack all the way out into meatspace.
My wife does not find this guidance helpful. But, when her mother started doing it to her she went off the rails, so there is some small consolation to be had there.
k__ · 4h ago
I have the impression, we need a guide on remote working etiquette that new hires at remote companies can read before getting started.
defraudbah · 3h ago
do we have a version for this to people who call you out of blue?
they have a single question and could type it out or email you, instead than ring to you
if you don't have the power to tell people to f- off, the only option left is to accept it and either play their game or ignore a type of behavior you don't want to reward
dmichulke · 2h ago
If you pick up you're training them to call you again.
Don't feel bad for not answering, just put your phone away for a couple hours.
sneak · 1h ago
Teach them how to use dictation mode. They do this because they don’t know how to type and it is easier and faster for them to speak than to type.
bonoboTP · 4h ago
I see this more often when someone desires synchronous, multi-turn interaction, not simply "when is that thing starting again?". Things where they aren't exactly sure how to ask the question so they want to rely on you asking questions back and then together zeroing in on the solution of some issue.
wheybags · 3h ago
If I need that, I send a message like "hey, you got time for a quick call to talk about x?". It's normally better to just figure out what you want to say and send it as a dm though, a call is a heavyweight escalation for rare and complex issues. It's also normally not a "question" per se, more a request for collaborative design or debugging.
nkrisc · 3h ago
Sure, but it’s still silly.
“Hey, I’m having some trouble figuring this thing out, here’s where I’m confused: … <details about problem and questions>.
It’s absurd to expect someone to play 20 questions with you to figure out what your problem is.
bonoboTP · 3h ago
They probably need handholding to go through the issue and aren't good at putting into words explicitly what their issue is. Especially nontechnical and nonprogrammer people have problems around structuring and breaking down an issue into explicit parts, with a clearly formulated goal and required inputs and expected outputs etc. Most people's problem-solving relies on a collaborative thinking process where short sentences are exchanged and you rely on the other person actively steering as well, not like an empty chat box.
I don't tend to see this "hello" issue with people who are competent in programming or troubleshooting things themselves.
nkrisc · 3h ago
> They probably need handholding to go through the issue and aren't good at putting into words explicitly what their issue is.
I expect that from students and children, sure. But professionals?
> Especially nontechnical and nonprogrammer people have problems around structuring and breaking down an issue into explicit parts, with a clearly formulated goal and required inputs and expected outputs etc.
Ah, they were failed by their school system. I remember being taught to think this way in my math and writing classes as a child.
bonoboTP · 3h ago
Some of this can be taught, some not.
But anyway, my main point was, simply sending them a link like this will be perceived as baffling and rude, and I doubt that it can have a positive causal effect because it's not merely that they don't know about this rule of how to write messages, but that they require handholding. You can ask why they got hired then, but sometimes people can be confident and charming and that's often enough especially in non-programming interviews, or there might be also other reasons.
stevage · 3h ago
Hmm you're actually selling we on why this can be useful. They are gaining information in the exchange, like how available you are, how willing to help etc.
jabroni_salad · 10m ago
Why are we playing a game of informational asymmetry? Are we at war? Do they want to seize my oil?
"The Initech account is totally on fire, can you look at it?"
Yes let us save the day in jolly cooperation.
"Did you see that ludicrous display last night?"
You can wait until im done with my current thing.
"hey."
If I respond, they will wrongly believe I am available and willing. It is morally correct to ghost them.
TeMPOraL · 2h ago
Or just trying to trap you into a synchronous interaction on their terms, pressuring you to give them your full attention and respond immediately.
They send their "Hi", and go do other stuff. You eventually respond with "hi", and they immediately reply with the request. At this point, they know you're around and saw their message - you just replied to their "hi". And you know they know, and also they know you know they know, which was the entire point.
They got to ask you the thing directly, so ignoring it now feel like walking away, which is rude.
stevage · 40m ago
That kind of thing tends not to work on me, because if I do reply "hi", I usually then get distracted, and don't reply to the next message for many hours. So they quickly learn it's better to just ask the question straight up.
bonoboTP · 1h ago
This can be okay if it's not every day, especially if they are new.
It could be a symptom that on-boarding is broken and nobody does any one on one mentoring and the person feels lost.
Of course it can also be that they just want you to do their job instead of them because they don't want to think or work.
jpl56 · 1h ago
I have a mouse shortcut that answers "Hi" so that I dont need to reach to my keyboard to answer.
But if they keep on with "How are you?", they can go to hell, I'm not answering.
rogerthis · 2h ago
My rules: if it's a person I interact everyday, private hello (hi, hey) is ok, and answered with equivalent. If we don't interact usually or have never, if I'm the one starting, then it's "Hi, I'm ..., the one responsible for ... We have this case ... etc etc.". I accept anything.
But, anyways, it's just life, don't know why people (even from my generation) are nervous these days.
enzett · 1h ago
It's not the same issue, but reading about this reminds me of the litany of pleasantries required for professional communication in Japanese. You can never "just ask your question".
If someone grabs my Slack attention by starting with "Hello" or "Hey <Name>", and he/she doesn't immediately continues typing, a "Permission to speak" is always fun :)
possiblydrunk · 3h ago
It's like a protocol handshake, of course. Why transmit information until you've established that the connection works? Consider it a text modem :)
quectophoton · 3h ago
Remember to ask "are you still there?" before sending the answer to their problems, and wait for a response, to make sure the connection is still established. You don't want them to miss the answer to their problem!
I started putting nohello as my status message, but soon after I found nometa and replaced it with this.
dim13 · 2h ago
I usually take it even a step further by skipping useless "hello".
Instead of "Hello, did you notice, that db is down? Can you check it please?"
Just terse "DB seems to be down. Please check it."
Retr0id · 3h ago
It's 2025, we should be able to use LLMs to adapt between communication styles.
If someone I don't know "hello"s me, my LLM should detect that, suppress the notification, and reply automatically - and then resume notifications and defer to me once non-greeting conversation has started.
msgodel · 3h ago
Regex is enough of a language model to deal with this, no need for LLMs. On a sane operating system you would be able to suppress notifications with a regex match but most consumer operating systems are no longer sane.
aeve890 · 2h ago
>Regex is enough of a language model to deal with this, no need for LLMs.
Dropbox comment vibes. Please provide the regex you use in your daily communication.
msgodel · 1h ago
I don't use toast notifications at all (I don't have a phone) but frequently use regex searches on my mailbox to find things.
My work computer is a mac though so as I said, it's insane and I get to just suffer.
Mordisquitos · 1h ago
> Please provide the regex you use in your daily communication.
/^[Hh](ello|i|ey)( ${MY_NAME})?[.!]?$/
aeve890 · 1h ago
Lol ok granted. I thought the parent comment was referring to a extremely complex regex capable of parsing whatever a LLM can.
theamk · 3h ago
So, basically the classical annoying phone screen but for you coworkers?
What's next - "press 1 for a question about FOO, press 2 for.." and level 1 AI support bots?
homebrewer · 3h ago
Back in the day of early IMs, some unofficial ICQ clients had anti-spam measures which let you set your own question and answer. Being edgy teenagers, we set "leet" questions, which filtered out the unwantables automatically.
TeMPOraL · 2h ago
Also first mandatory 30 seconds of pre-recorded message on who is processing your personal data.
giarc · 2h ago
It's funny to see this here. I manage a large team and just the other day had to deal with irate employees who are arguing over whether they should be saying "Good morning" to each other when they come into the office.
One employee thinks it should almost be "mandatory" to greet each other, where the other employee says she isn't in the headspace to be greeting people early in the morning and would rather get settled at her desk. Pretty obvious, but these two employees hate eachother and this is a sign of a bigger problem.
93po · 2h ago
i would hope my manager wouldnt see this as irate employeeS but rather one employee trying to be controlling by forcing another one to bark a response like a trained dog when they've made it clear what their boundaries are for early morning communications. allowing communication boundaries between employees is a pretty basic tenet of treating them with the respect humans deserve
rufus_foreman · 17m ago
>> the other employee says she isn't in the headspace to be greeting people early in the morning and would rather get settled at her desk
Uh-oh. Sounds like somebody's got a case of the Mondays.
rsynnott · 2h ago
Quite frankly this sounds like something from The Office.
counterpoint - Sometimes I do this for myself to prompt myself into a reply when I'm finding it hard to compose the message. Once I've said something, no matter how small, I know I have to follow up within in a couple of minutes. It's like a kind of short-term Ulysses pact.
Also I'd say this depends on your existing work culture - I've been in places where the expectation is that everyone has Slack messages muted. If anything was really that time sensitive it's still possible to pick up the phone.
stevage · 3h ago
Huh. I literally never have my phone ringer on. If you want to contact me, slack is a much better chance.
macintux · 3h ago
If people who say “Hello” would follow up with the question in a couple of minutes, I wouldn’t care. They don’t.
conradfr · 3h ago
"You still say hello!" - Uncle Leo
I agree with the website. It's even worse when you have to do the "how are you?" back and forth before getting to the actual request.
Bjartr · 3h ago
This is actually an area I've been informally studying for several years. Both the "Hi" and the "How are you?" are phatic.
Phatic communication is about establishing social connection rather than conveying explicit information.
Both "Hi" and "How are you?" serve in these cases* to eatablish "this is a friendly, casual interaction" by way of social ritual. If you fail to signal non-aggression in this way then, at least neurotypical people, will be more likely to consider you an aggressor.
I don't struggle or feel bothered by "Hi" or "How are you?". But I do struggle with threading enough phatic praise and appreciation into conversation to maintain the "friendly, casual" status and can get easily start being treated as an aggressor.
* America in particular has "How are you?" as one of these phatic rituals. Different parts of the world have different rituals in different areas of interaction. This can be a cause of friction when moving to a new country and you interpret an unfamiliar ritual literally instead of phatically or misunderstand another's intent because a ritual you expect was missing.
ryukoposting · 3h ago
Yknow what? This doesn't bother me. I've had coworkers who do this. You just respond "hello!" and maybe they just ask their question, or maybe they ask about your day, or whatever else. God forbid I spend an extra 4 seconds per day thinking about a person I work with. Do "hello" messages waste time? Yes. Am I happy to field them anyway? Yes!
quectophoton · 2h ago
It's good to communicate with others while putting an effort into keeping the other party as comfortable as possible. That's a sign of respect, but it also goes both ways.
Both ways. It can't be just one side always bending backwards while the other doesn't, without even any intention to meet in the middle.
b0a04gl · 2h ago
i keep nohello.net in my slack status-just says “pls nohello -> nohello.net”. just a quick fyi page. helps avoid the whole “hi” then wait loop. once people see it, they usually get it. makes async smoother without needing to explain every time
okonomiyaki3000 · 2h ago
This x1000 when you're working with people in different time zones.
jasek · 3h ago
Maybe just ask the question in the same line as "hello"? Here ya go...
jvanderbot · 3h ago
The finest summary of this article!
nubinetwork · 3h ago
I prefer "hey, got a minute?"... or "sorry to bother you, but..." if I know that they're the only one who can fix said issue.
gregoriol · 3h ago
It's always nice to have a (very) little intro, but both of these have a bad subscript.
The first one says I know it won't take you long, but that assumes you know the time it'll take me to handle whatever you are going to say, but the reality is that you likely don't know, and even if the conversation itself lasts less than a minute, the person will likely been cut of what they were doing for more than this.
The second one is even worse as you imply that you know are bothering me, so don't bother me! (even if it is a polite phrase, it's not nice)
In other words, just ask. It's more efficient and doesn't make any assumption: we'll figure out how long it takes and if that bothers me.
kingforaday · 3h ago
I'm also starting to see this a lot recently:
- im?
It's up there with "yt?" And "Hi <name>.".
eqmvii · 3h ago
love this every time i see it, but haven’t yet had the courage to reply to somebody’s “hey” with it
MisterTea · 2h ago
I have a friend who would always text me "yo yo", which annoyed me, so I would always responded with a picture of a yo-yo. He finally got the hint and now asks "you around?" so yet again, I state I am in fact not a round anything and the saga continues...
Just ask the mother flipping question ffs!
cvoss · 2h ago
Consider telling your friend you would prefer different behavior from him, instead of passive aggression that, at this point, you have proven is ineffective and only leaves you more frustrated because you feel like he's ignoring your "request" (when he's done no such thing).
postepowanieadm · 3h ago
Hello everyone!
CGMthrowaway · 2h ago
Wait until you find out what "poking" was on Facebook.
agentultra · 3h ago
No hello but time for goodbye? /s
I get it. It’s the same on IRC when people ask if they can ask a question. Just ask the bloody question!
xattt · 3h ago
When I’m in a Smart Alec mood, I’ll usually respond “you already did” if they ask if they can ask a question.
inopinatus · 3h ago
The other smartass response is “apparently not”.
d--b · 3h ago
Let people be people for god sake.
If people saying hello on a chat pisses you off, take it as a sign that you need a vacation. I bet when you're back from 2 weeks in the Bahamas, when someone pings you with an empty "hello", you'll reply with a nice "oh hey buddy, what's up?", rather than spending one week building a fancy website to post to HN people who already agree with you.
JojoFatsani · 4h ago
Yeah doesn’t seem that we need to ACK in slack. It’s a boomer tendency.
codingdave · 4h ago
> It’s a boomer tendency.
wat. No, it isn't. I see it almost 100% from young people who live in India. And that probably isn't the right criteria either - it is probably different people within each organization. This is a cultural thing, not generational.
pigbearpig · 3h ago
I am in no way qualified on this, but my assumption was that this comes from cultures that consider getting straight to business rude.
So while I do find it annoying, I also try to be polite back and I certainly won't be putting some "No Hello" link.
If it is a cultural thing and coming from a place of politeness, then I'll engage in a quick round of pleasantries. Once people are familiar, I've noticed this stops.
Sheeny96 · 2h ago
It definitely is cultural, but I've never viewed it from the perspective of getting straight to business being rude. A bit like in the UK, "weather chat" is a very standard point of conversation at the start of a meeting with people you aren't too familiar with, as a reflexive ice breaker.
For me personally, whilst I understand all the reasoning and logic behind it, it does ultimately come across as fake and unnecessary - everyone knows it's fake and unnecessary, but we ritualistically do it anyway, because the alternative is too jarring "we're here for work, lets do the work, and we're done"
codingdave · 3h ago
Exactly. I just reply back when I'm ready. Forcing them into our cultural habits shows a complete misunderstanding and lack of respect of other people. Even better, I like to get my teams to talk about communication early on in projects, so everyone understands how people want to communicate over messaging, expectations on response times, etc. A 15 minute meeting can resolve so many annoyances.
vachina · 3h ago
Not just Indian teens, but Indians in general. Whenever my India based colleague reaches out they always starts the conversation with “hello <first name>”, and then nothing else. If I leave them on read and their patience times out, they’ll then call, irregardless of your status.
> you're actually just making the other person wait
Where is the problem? Just do what you did until the question pops up?
It’s not a phone call, remember ?
nmeofthestate · 3h ago
So you got e-prodded in the head - what's the problem? simply wait for the person to ask their question. (Fingers crossed they don't expect a response before continuing - if it turns out that they do, just spend some time waiting, distracted, and then prod them back to get them moving).
This site is saying "don't poke people in the head and then wait for them to ask you why you did that before continuing. It's detrimental for this mode of communication."
croes · 34m ago
Are people so easily distracted?
I skim the message popup for a real question, otherwise I ignore it. Cost half a second, takes nothing from my flow.
apples_oranges · 4h ago
What a non issue?
If a solution is needed, software should not notify user about mere greetings
Propelloni · 3h ago
I agree it is a non-issue. But the non-issue is a social one and thus the solution is not technology but giving feedback. A simple "Hi Greg, I noticed you opened our conversation with salutations and only send the salient topic after I replied. In the future, please send me the topic in the first message, too. I won't be offended. Thank you. Bob" usually suffices.
voidmain0001 · 3h ago
Uh, Yes Hello. My technique is to send an initial 'hello' message when I need to get a quick response or when I don't frequently communicate with the other party. After sending the 'hello' message I immediately plough on by sending my next message(s) which are probably questions or wants. With so many people exhibiting ADD symptoms, myself included, a series of notifications on their device encourages them to respond to me. The cat's out of the bag now for why I do this.
I also like to inject civility and cordiality into messaging because I find it's treated with barbarism by some that send a message like a stone through a window.
The discussions always split between the people who just want to get on with the conversation and the people who can't bring themselves to do that because they consider it unforgivably rude. The second group never seem to take the hint that the first interruption is an imposition in itself.
It would be rude to simply link this site (not blaming you) in response to a “hello” coming from a remote co-worker, or even a co-worker across the office who just didn’t want to walk over. They are just being friendly!
I am one who would prefer to just get on with the conversation but I also realize that’s not how everyone is and that’s okay; I should play nice with others if I want others to play nice with me and a simple “hey” in response is such an easy way to play nice.
I've seen arguments in the past that different nationalities may have different norms around this kind of thing, in particular over whether it's polite to launch straight into a request for help without confirming the other person is available and receptive first.
There may be a power dynamics thing here too - if somebody is seen as being more "senior" there may be additional perceived constraints on how a conversation should be conducted.
Since you've been involved in conversations about this for more than 15 years now have you seen any credible evidence of cultural differences that come into play here?
> The selfish point (there are other points too) of "hi" is to confirm you have their attention
No one is unsure of the selfish/self-serving motivation behind the lone "hello". The singleminded self-centeredness at the expense of others is the _entire_ basis of the criticism.
This response is like encountering in a thread about lunch theft in the workplace, "Some people take food that isn't theirs because they didn't bring anything for lunch, and they see food that someone else brought sitting there in the fridge." The power of this response to be able to explain something not already understood is nil—and so is its exculpatory power.
> to remove plausible deniability of "oops I missed your message."
I'll dispute this. The overwhelming purpose is so the sender can confirm they have the receiver's attention so the sender knows whether to bother themselves with typing out the rest of their inquiry. They're happy to trade the negative consequences on others for a minor convenience to themselves.
BAD: Hey, you there?
GOOD: Hey, you there? I'm trying to do X but I'm running into some issues and I wanted to get your advice.
Once I've responded and you know you have my attention, then you commit to filling me in on the gory details.
Email etiquette has always seemed natural to me, but a lot of people read chat as a synchronous medium, so.
It's just another place where I need to have multiple modes on hand for different people.
If it’s urgent enough that the actual message isn’t enough, “Hello” isn’t going to cut it either.
I've also had cases where I've immediately responded "hi" only to get the question about 1h later.
If you want my attention give me a reason to give it.
Her: "Alexa, add to shopping list". "OK, what should I add for you". "Peanut butter". "OK, peanut butter added, what else?". <long pause while the house has to be quiet until alexa times out>.
Me: "Alexa add peanut butter to shopping list". "Peanut butter added".
Some people are TCP. Some are UDP.
“Alexa add peanut butter to shopping list" <silence>
“Alexa add peanut butter to shopping list". “Peanut butter added. Peanut butter added. Peanut butter added.”
"It's currently raining would you like to see the forecast for tomorrow also I found this routine you might like would you like me to enable it"
writes peanut butter on a piece of paper
Nailed it! This is going up on the wall in my office.
:P
----
Other person: Hi, what time was that thing?
Me: Hey, 14:00.
...
...
Me: Hey, 14:00!
...
...
Me: walks in their face Hey you, the thing you asked, it's at 14:00.
Other person: Yes yes, I heard you first time!
Me: boils internally, muttering to themselves so why the fsck didn't you say so?
----
Please don't hang on "Hello", but for $deity's sake, confirm reception of messages, especially in analog communication.
"Since we are on the topic of communication, written communication also does not constitute communication unless they confirm they read it."
https://simonwillison.net/2024/Sep/15/how-to-succeed-in-mrbe...
"Alexa add peanut butter to shopping list" "OK, what should list should I add to?" "shopping list" "Ok, what should I add for you" "Peanut butter" "Ok, playing Peanut Butter by the Royal Guardsmen on a HomePod you forgot you had"
Siri occasionally misunderstands the name of the item, or needs to ask who's speaking (when on the HomePod), or has trouble because the phone of the person asking has briefly dropped off the Wifi, but in the ~5 years we've had it, I can count on one hand the number of times adding has just failed with any pattern remotely like what you describe.
Then I became a manager, I had to start dealing with more people, to navigate the enterprise environment and I understood that one of my strengths is to be understand people and to accommodate their ways of working. In this context, being hard with people that just say hello just doesn't make much sense to me anymore. People have busy schedules, they start conversations and are interrupted, they receive hundreds of notifications and have other meetings going on.
If the worst they do to me is to say hello and never talk to me again, I'm ok with accommodating this in my daily workflow.
It's not about interruption really, it's about a style of using chat apps that wastes peoples' attention and is easily avoided.
> they receive hundreds of notifications
okay, so this nohello thing is good advice to help reduce the noise.
they need to work on their time management.
This is the problem I run into, I want to just reply to any "Hey" message with a link to this page, but then I'm the one being rude. We just need a better way to let other people know that this isn't a good way to do async chat. I've heard of other people making their status message this site, so then people see it when they go to message you and it doesn't have to be explicitly brought up
> If the worst they do to me is to say hello and never talk to me again, I'm ok with accommodating this in my daily workflow
This I can't really get behind, because if they just send a hello it's implied that I then need to follow-up and find out what they were asking about
Don't ask to ask, just ask.
See also <https://netsplit.de/channels/?chat=don%27t+ask+to+ask>.
The annoyance in TFA is that you have to do the handshake at all.
I suddenly no longer agree with TFA. This makes way more sense to me in this light.
In TCP, it's useful because it happens in a different layer of abstraction. Even then, QUIC was developed (partly) because it was realised there's no point waiting for the full SYN / SYN ACK / ACK before starting some of the higher-level exchange (although the early data transfer in QUIC is used for TLS initiation rather than application-level data).
when they could have just included `${QUERY}` in the initial send, or at least `framing(${QUERY})`.
No comments yet
although these days I sometimes respond "how was your weekend" to continue the pleasantries :D
But do you see how that is your choice? You can just type "hello", or a longer form of the same, and then go back to work. You can then check back in about an hour to see if they managed to describe what they are looking for.
You can always change yourself, while it is so much harder to change others that it is almost futile. The true source of your distress is not them saying hello, but your understanding of that social expectation of realtime responses.
This is a defeatist attitude.
Sure, there are some people who will refuse to change no matter what. But many—probably even most—people, if you explain that this is your preferred method of communication when they have a question for you to answer, will at least try to operate that way.
the only working option is to ignore such people, you cannot teach people with reasoning, it never works
If the person on the other end then decides to draw out the small talk with “how are you” etc, it might take a few days for them to get an answer to their actual question, but that’s on them, it doesn’t bother me. I get to messages when I get to them. If they aren’t of substance I don’t care.
I hope this message finds you well.
I have a question.
-------
It’s simply not a game I want to play. My mind recommends answering »state your business«, but my polite-mind tells me not to.
I reply in kind with "hello".
There can then be many hours to sometimes days.
Either they then reply AGAIN with "hello" (arghhh), or even worse, there is no reply, and I break asking what they want, and _maybe_ get a reply of "never mind, got it sorted" so I NEVER KNOW.
Even when the convo turns interactive, half the time either me or the other guy has to drop off, often without warning. So after some waiting around, I'll write down, in async mode, all I want.
It always then feels like basically a different GUI/ API onto email. With more emojis and reactions and stickers and scented candles or whatnot.
Saying Hello or good morning and then spending multiple minutes composing your actual message while I'm attending you is extremely annoying.
Quite frankly though I don't think it makes sense to do any of that outside a group chat. Just say what you want to say and get out.
Hi [Name],
[Message content]
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
* https://jdebp.uk/FGA/problem-report-standard-litany.html
* https://jdebp.uk/FGA/questions-with-yes-or-no-answers.html
* https://pyropus.ca./personal/writings/12-steps-to-qmail-list...
* https://jdebp.uk/FGA/put-down-the-chocolate-covered-banana.h...
* https://perl.plover.com/Questions4.html
None of us really cover the case where someone is employing a human version of the Nagle slow start algorithm. (-:
The one thing that's really objectionable in that section is the last part about people who attack or flame without apparent reason. Such people should be called out by other community members in the same way ESR describes for newcomers in the first part of the section.
I wish there was a good source of this information from a less polarizing figure.
That being said I do find the tone of this guide somewhat annoying and condescending at times. It could use some editing to make it more impersonal and to the point. Justifications and explanations could be attached separately and most people won't read them anyway. When people ask poor questions, it's often precisely because they don't read longform text for some reason.
The "" example should only consist of 3 operations: Dawn: REQUEST, Tim: RESPOND, Dawn: CLOSE. For example: "Hiya! What time was that thing?", "hey, 3:30", "Ta - seeya then!". Or even just 2, Dawn: REQUEST, Tim: RESPOND (auto close), this could imply that Dawn and Tim are really close, or really not close.
BTW: We are not designing reliable messaging protocols here folks. The chat software should tell if any message was lost.
My wife does not find this guidance helpful. But, when her mother started doing it to her she went off the rails, so there is some small consolation to be had there.
if you don't have the power to tell people to f- off, the only option left is to accept it and either play their game or ignore a type of behavior you don't want to reward
Don't feel bad for not answering, just put your phone away for a couple hours.
“Hey, I’m having some trouble figuring this thing out, here’s where I’m confused: … <details about problem and questions>.
It’s absurd to expect someone to play 20 questions with you to figure out what your problem is.
I don't tend to see this "hello" issue with people who are competent in programming or troubleshooting things themselves.
I expect that from students and children, sure. But professionals?
> Especially nontechnical and nonprogrammer people have problems around structuring and breaking down an issue into explicit parts, with a clearly formulated goal and required inputs and expected outputs etc.
Ah, they were failed by their school system. I remember being taught to think this way in my math and writing classes as a child.
But anyway, my main point was, simply sending them a link like this will be perceived as baffling and rude, and I doubt that it can have a positive causal effect because it's not merely that they don't know about this rule of how to write messages, but that they require handholding. You can ask why they got hired then, but sometimes people can be confident and charming and that's often enough especially in non-programming interviews, or there might be also other reasons.
"The Initech account is totally on fire, can you look at it?"
Yes let us save the day in jolly cooperation.
"Did you see that ludicrous display last night?"
You can wait until im done with my current thing.
"hey."
If I respond, they will wrongly believe I am available and willing. It is morally correct to ghost them.
They send their "Hi", and go do other stuff. You eventually respond with "hi", and they immediately reply with the request. At this point, they know you're around and saw their message - you just replied to their "hi". And you know they know, and also they know you know they know, which was the entire point.
They got to ask you the thing directly, so ignoring it now feel like walking away, which is rude.
It could be a symptom that on-boarding is broken and nobody does any one on one mentoring and the person feels lost.
Of course it can also be that they just want you to do their job instead of them because they don't want to think or work.
But, anyways, it's just life, don't know why people (even from my generation) are nervous these days.
https://aka.ms/nohello
which redirects(?) to
https://sbmueller.github.io/nohello/
Instead of "Hello, did you notice, that db is down? Can you check it please?"
Just terse "DB seems to be down. Please check it."
If someone I don't know "hello"s me, my LLM should detect that, suppress the notification, and reply automatically - and then resume notifications and defer to me once non-greeting conversation has started.
Dropbox comment vibes. Please provide the regex you use in your daily communication.
My work computer is a mac though so as I said, it's insane and I get to just suffer.
What's next - "press 1 for a question about FOO, press 2 for.." and level 1 AI support bots?
One employee thinks it should almost be "mandatory" to greet each other, where the other employee says she isn't in the headspace to be greeting people early in the morning and would rather get settled at her desk. Pretty obvious, but these two employees hate eachother and this is a sign of a bigger problem.
Uh-oh. Sounds like somebody's got a case of the Mondays.
Also I'd say this depends on your existing work culture - I've been in places where the expectation is that everyone has Slack messages muted. If anything was really that time sensitive it's still possible to pick up the phone.
I agree with the website. It's even worse when you have to do the "how are you?" back and forth before getting to the actual request.
Phatic communication is about establishing social connection rather than conveying explicit information.
Both "Hi" and "How are you?" serve in these cases* to eatablish "this is a friendly, casual interaction" by way of social ritual. If you fail to signal non-aggression in this way then, at least neurotypical people, will be more likely to consider you an aggressor.
I don't struggle or feel bothered by "Hi" or "How are you?". But I do struggle with threading enough phatic praise and appreciation into conversation to maintain the "friendly, casual" status and can get easily start being treated as an aggressor.
* America in particular has "How are you?" as one of these phatic rituals. Different parts of the world have different rituals in different areas of interaction. This can be a cause of friction when moving to a new country and you interpret an unfamiliar ritual literally instead of phatically or misunderstand another's intent because a ritual you expect was missing.
Both ways. It can't be just one side always bending backwards while the other doesn't, without even any intention to meet in the middle.
The first one says I know it won't take you long, but that assumes you know the time it'll take me to handle whatever you are going to say, but the reality is that you likely don't know, and even if the conversation itself lasts less than a minute, the person will likely been cut of what they were doing for more than this.
The second one is even worse as you imply that you know are bothering me, so don't bother me! (even if it is a polite phrase, it's not nice)
In other words, just ask. It's more efficient and doesn't make any assumption: we'll figure out how long it takes and if that bothers me.
Just ask the mother flipping question ffs!
I get it. It’s the same on IRC when people ask if they can ask a question. Just ask the bloody question!
If people saying hello on a chat pisses you off, take it as a sign that you need a vacation. I bet when you're back from 2 weeks in the Bahamas, when someone pings you with an empty "hello", you'll reply with a nice "oh hey buddy, what's up?", rather than spending one week building a fancy website to post to HN people who already agree with you.
wat. No, it isn't. I see it almost 100% from young people who live in India. And that probably isn't the right criteria either - it is probably different people within each organization. This is a cultural thing, not generational.
So while I do find it annoying, I also try to be polite back and I certainly won't be putting some "No Hello" link.
If it is a cultural thing and coming from a place of politeness, then I'll engage in a quick round of pleasantries. Once people are familiar, I've noticed this stops.
For me personally, whilst I understand all the reasoning and logic behind it, it does ultimately come across as fake and unnecessary - everyone knows it's fake and unnecessary, but we ritualistically do it anyway, because the alternative is too jarring "we're here for work, lets do the work, and we're done"
Boomers never talk like that.
Wad that up and smoke it kiddo
Where is the problem? Just do what you did until the question pops up?
It’s not a phone call, remember ?
This site is saying "don't poke people in the head and then wait for them to ask you why you did that before continuing. It's detrimental for this mode of communication."
I also like to inject civility and cordiality into messaging because I find it's treated with barbarism by some that send a message like a stone through a window.