I have little to say about the genetic collection, which is obviously "concerning". But the willingness people have to go along with demonization of someone merely for the crime of entering this country without permission makes me sick.
userbinator · 1d ago
for the crime of entering this country without permission
Why do borders exist?
MangoToupe · 1d ago
You're not ever going to rationally convince me that ICE (or, CBP in this case) as it stands today is doing anything positive for most people in this country. And the folks it does benefit benefit from other behavior I find repugnant, like temporary work visas paying well under a livable wage, and media personalities who make money by driving easily-manipulated people into a frothing rage.
Not that I ever expect the people baying for blood to care one iota for other people's perspectives. It must be such a thrill to think you're being invaded by your neighborhood line cook.
simoncion · 23h ago
> You're not ever going to rationally convince me that ICE (or, CBP in this case) as it stands today is doing anything positive for most people in this country.
Then it's a good thing that userbinator's question
> Why do borders exist?
is asking about the essential nature of illegal immigration, rather than the absolute horseshit that US Immigrations and Customs officials and agents get up to in the field.
If you believe that there should be no such thing as illegal immigration (that is, that borders should be open to all for any and all reasons), then don't even mention Immigrations and Customs, other than to mention that they won't be needed... simply speak your mind plainly and clearly.
If you don't believe that borders should be open to all for any and all reasons, then talk about why (and under what circumstances) it's important that those borders be maintained.
Do note that it can be simultaneously true that one's country's Immigrations and Customs apparatus is an absolutely inhumane shitshow that should be dismantled posthaste, and also that one's country's borders should be maintained.
MangoToupe · 22h ago
I don't think it would be helpful or prudent to call for "open borders". However, they seem to produce as many problems as they solve, if not more. I think we have other problems we need to solve as a species before we're ready for that conversation.
xtiansimon · 10h ago
> “…’Why do borders exist?’ is asking about the essential nature of illegal immigration…”
That’s a generous assessment.
JCattheATM · 1d ago
Why do asylum claims and immigration courts exist?
Brian_K_White · 15h ago
Indeed why? There are reasons but which of them justifies the kinds of things they are being used to justify?
WarOnPrivacy · 23h ago
> Why do borders exist?
To discourage bad-actor neighbors from forcefully cooping your citizens into it's 51st state.
MangoToupe · 20h ago
I would love to have access to israeli healthcare. I just find the existence of the state itself reprehensible.
Edit: it occurs to me on reflection you might not have intended to imply Israel. Still, it feels like they are at this point, that we'd prefer to tear this country apart rather than go to war with them. Tbh this seems to be another strike against borders as distracting bullshit rather than a really meaningful concept.
47282847 · 1d ago
> Why do borders exist?
I honestly don’t know. Why do they, except for outdated historical reasons?
userbinator · 1d ago
You should also ask yourself why countries exist, but I suspect I'm not going to convince a globalist if "outdated historical reasons" is all you can come up with.
47282847 · 11h ago
Countries have a point as it is useful to organize locally for local issues: districts, municipalities, villages, cities, regions, states, all are useful organizational units to have, and none of those require borders (as in, regulation of migration; not borders as in organizational structuring).
I see no logical argument why suddenly and arbitrarily on one of those levels one should have to introduce borders. And you have not provided any either so far, so I have no ability to grow towards your perspective.
The usage of -isms is poor. If you do not want to defend your perspective, fine. But don’t make it about me. Most people will feel offended if you throw -isms at them, and rightfully so. I am an individual, not a category.
MangoToupe · 20h ago
the alternative to globalism being...?
alexb_ · 8h ago
I'd love to hear your reasons as to why.
MountainMan1312 · 1d ago
Borders are a tool of the ruling class to keep their workers corralled. They can set up isolated environments with specific conditions conducive to certain types of output. Crossing borders without going through their system undermines their ability to use us as cattle. Borders are arbitrary, and the ones you think exist are often total falsehoods conjured up by people who decided it was more beneficial for them if the borders were this way rather than that way. The borders we are shown on the map often do not exist.
CMCDragonkai · 21h ago
I believe that borders in the past existed mostly due to the ruling class that asserts control over resources. The peasant class are actually serfs to the land they are cattle to be corralled as you say. But ever since the development of nationalism and the nation state, borders are supposedly now useful to the the nation - tied to an ethnic group. But this might all just be in the mind regardless of biological affinity. Some people might feel more interconnected, others feel more egoistic.
FireBeyond · 19h ago
> Borders are a tool of the ruling class to keep their workers corralled
Tyson Chicken.
This part is my theorizing: A bunch of workers were getting... uppity... about little things like child labor laws, blatant OSHA violations. Making a bit of noise.
They also happened to be mostly undocumented.
This part is fact:
ICE conducted coordinated raids on Tyson facilities and picked up ~900 undocumented workers.
Many of those workers supplied ICE and the media documentation from Tyson describing how to handle onboarding, I-9, IRS paperwork if they were undocumented - i.e. Tyson was actively aware, and actively assisting, in this.
For note: entering improperly or overstaying a visa is a crime - a misdemeanor. Aiding and assisting in this process is a felony (often because there's good financial gains to be made).
ICE held a triumphant press conference to herald this roundup.
Media question: "Does ICE have any plan to investigate Tyson, given the evidence that strongly suggests they were assisting these undocumented workers in staying under the radar?"
"That is not within the scope of our investigation here."
To absolutely no-one's surprise, this (and other similar situations like it) just ... don't get investigated.
My theory, again: Tyson was annoyed. Too much noise about OSHA and labor law violations. A little call to ICE, and a little backroom deal. "We'll give you the names of hundred of workers, you can make a big scene about that. And in exchange, you won't ask awkward questions about just how nearly 1,000 undocumented workers are at our facilities."
razakel · 12h ago
Hormel did exactly the same thing. Workers complaining about developing a weird autoimmune condition from inhaling aerosolized pig brains? Get them deported!
jaoane · 1d ago
Every time I read a question like this I have to wonder if it's asked in good faith. Most likely no.
const_cast · 23h ago
Right, these people are constructing a straw man.
Nobody believes borders shouldn't exist. Well, nobody we care about anyway. But we can all acknowledge that how ICE has been handling border affairs has been criminal.
MangoToupe · 20h ago
> border affairs has been criminal.
More importantly, it's wrong.
kgwxd · 1d ago
With an about of "Make Software Great Again", definitely not.
lenerdenator · 1d ago
This was always a risk when we decided that data was worth something to people who weren't the generators of the data.
At least for the foreseeable future (2028 being the earliest a real change could be made), the best way to handle this will be to ready yourself for when tyranny comes to you.
giantg2 · 1d ago
This isn't anything new, right? You don't have to be convicted of a felony for compelled collection. This doesn't just apply to immigrants.
userbinator · 1d ago
Title left out an important word: immigrant children.
lithos · 1d ago
New Jersey has this of everyone born in the state, and frequently leases out the data to anyone willing to pay.
(Taken from blood samples that are used to test for otherwise lethal allergies to babies)
It's immensely profitable and cost saving for crime (IE using baby Y genes to find males 4 to 7 generations up/down the bloodline). So makes sense why every govt. org that can force collection will.
WarOnPrivacy · 1d ago
> New Jersey has this of everyone born in the state, and frequently leases out the data to anyone willing to pay.
I don't think that's an important word to include. The collection is occurring for citizen children too.
ajross · 1d ago
Comment left out an even more important thing: context for why that matters. Is there a scenario where collecting DNA from native kids is bad in a way that it is not for immigrant (excuse me, "immigrant") kids? Can you explain? Seems like a general principle at work here to me.
adolph · 1d ago
The DNA Fingerprint Act of 2005 (the Act) and a subsequent regulation effective in 2009 established requirements for federal law enforcement agencies to collect DNA from individuals who are arrested, facing criminal charges or convicted, and from certain detained noncitizens.
From a 2023 inspector general report which is informative about how the program works.
Why do borders exist?
Not that I ever expect the people baying for blood to care one iota for other people's perspectives. It must be such a thrill to think you're being invaded by your neighborhood line cook.
Then it's a good thing that userbinator's question
> Why do borders exist?
is asking about the essential nature of illegal immigration, rather than the absolute horseshit that US Immigrations and Customs officials and agents get up to in the field.
If you believe that there should be no such thing as illegal immigration (that is, that borders should be open to all for any and all reasons), then don't even mention Immigrations and Customs, other than to mention that they won't be needed... simply speak your mind plainly and clearly.
If you don't believe that borders should be open to all for any and all reasons, then talk about why (and under what circumstances) it's important that those borders be maintained.
Do note that it can be simultaneously true that one's country's Immigrations and Customs apparatus is an absolutely inhumane shitshow that should be dismantled posthaste, and also that one's country's borders should be maintained.
That’s a generous assessment.
To discourage bad-actor neighbors from forcefully cooping your citizens into it's 51st state.
Edit: it occurs to me on reflection you might not have intended to imply Israel. Still, it feels like they are at this point, that we'd prefer to tear this country apart rather than go to war with them. Tbh this seems to be another strike against borders as distracting bullshit rather than a really meaningful concept.
I honestly don’t know. Why do they, except for outdated historical reasons?
I see no logical argument why suddenly and arbitrarily on one of those levels one should have to introduce borders. And you have not provided any either so far, so I have no ability to grow towards your perspective.
The usage of -isms is poor. If you do not want to defend your perspective, fine. But don’t make it about me. Most people will feel offended if you throw -isms at them, and rightfully so. I am an individual, not a category.
Tyson Chicken.
This part is my theorizing: A bunch of workers were getting... uppity... about little things like child labor laws, blatant OSHA violations. Making a bit of noise.
They also happened to be mostly undocumented.
This part is fact:
ICE conducted coordinated raids on Tyson facilities and picked up ~900 undocumented workers.
Many of those workers supplied ICE and the media documentation from Tyson describing how to handle onboarding, I-9, IRS paperwork if they were undocumented - i.e. Tyson was actively aware, and actively assisting, in this.
For note: entering improperly or overstaying a visa is a crime - a misdemeanor. Aiding and assisting in this process is a felony (often because there's good financial gains to be made).
ICE held a triumphant press conference to herald this roundup.
Media question: "Does ICE have any plan to investigate Tyson, given the evidence that strongly suggests they were assisting these undocumented workers in staying under the radar?"
"That is not within the scope of our investigation here."
To absolutely no-one's surprise, this (and other similar situations like it) just ... don't get investigated.
My theory, again: Tyson was annoyed. Too much noise about OSHA and labor law violations. A little call to ICE, and a little backroom deal. "We'll give you the names of hundred of workers, you can make a big scene about that. And in exchange, you won't ask awkward questions about just how nearly 1,000 undocumented workers are at our facilities."
Nobody believes borders shouldn't exist. Well, nobody we care about anyway. But we can all acknowledge that how ICE has been handling border affairs has been criminal.
More importantly, it's wrong.
At least for the foreseeable future (2028 being the earliest a real change could be made), the best way to handle this will be to ready yourself for when tyranny comes to you.
(Taken from blood samples that are used to test for otherwise lethal allergies to babies)
It's immensely profitable and cost saving for crime (IE using baby Y genes to find males 4 to 7 generations up/down the bloodline). So makes sense why every govt. org that can force collection will.
Yes. refs: https://www.techdirt.com/2022/08/08/new-jersey-cops-are-usin...
https://www.techdirt.com/2024/08/02/new-jersey-trying-to-sal...
https://www.techdirt.com/2024/04/03/new-jersey-sued-again-fo...
From a 2023 inspector general report which is informative about how the program works.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-23-106252.pdf