Are there any companies making the news that are going in the opposite direction? Allowing more flexible “hybrid”, or even full remote?
I recently got an Amazon recruiter ping, but realized that they couldn’t pay me enough to commute into the city center. I’m not really looking, but if push came to shove, I would have to if the industry is really moving back to the office. Makes me real sad.
notepad0x90 · 3h ago
The problem is, they don't even let most people have actual offices at the office.
Even if productivity is better this way, isn't there an advantage to being able to hire people from a wider geography, access to a larger talent pool?
I read @paulg and other leadership type YC people support return to office as well. I recall startups competing for talent desperately. That was why silicon valley startups always had crazy perks. If talent was how my business disrupted and dominated, I would want the most access to talent and give them the best working conditions. Perhaps a subtle pivot in priority has happened? Tech companies no longer believe in a talent-centered strategy? Or there is an over abundance of talent?
I'm just trying to give people the benefit of doubt, that this isn't just cruel people unhappy at the sight of improved quality of life for others.
FinnLobsien · 2h ago
I don't think these things are really done because you get more done at an office.
I think it's more of a litmus test: If you care about your work enough that you're willing to come to the office every day (or even move cities/countries), then you'll be extremely engaged.
So by saying "you have to come to the office 5 days a week", you will only get people who are very engaged and will get a lot done—even if it's not because of the office.
I guarantee there's a Venn diagram of extremely engaged people who also prefer (or will exclusively do) remote work, which office-only companies will miss out on.
But when you're in a high talent-density area like NYC/SF maybe that's not a big concern.
So willingness to come to the office becomes a proxy metric for how much you care, which obviously influences your engagement.
notepad0x90 · 2h ago
> I think it's more of a litmus test: If you care about your work enough that you're willing to come to the office every day (or even move cities/countries), then you'll be extremely engaged.
Sure, but what if there is another company closer to me (office), or offering hybrid or full remote work? I can about my work just the same elsewhere.
I think you're on the right track, but in my opinion, it is more about having reliable employees than employees who care or are engaged. Your actual performance and talent could be bad, but so long as you won't ask for too much pay and you won't leave any time soon, that is what these companies want more than talent. This is sort of what I was alluding to. disruptive startups would never think this way, but EA isn't that anymore. neither are google or facebook. they're no longer disruptive, they are complacent and spiraling into the IBM and AT&T like mediocrity.
FinnLobsien · 1h ago
> I think you're on the right track, but in my opinion, it is more about having reliable employees than employees who care or are engaged.
Sure! I think the (maybe sad) reality is that most larger companies don't actually need excellence in most roles.
First, excellent people tend to have bigger variance and second, most jobs just don't require being that good.
I imagine that in today's Apple, there's no way Jony Ive would be as influential. And maybe that's just how things go:
The types of people who can innovate and change things are dissatisfied with the status quo. But once you ARE the status quo, you seek precisely the people who want to maintain it.
benterix · 43m ago
> If you care about your work enough that you're willing to come to the office every day (or even move cities/countries), then you'll be extremely engaged.
Or extremely stupid (if for the same money you get WFH without the need to move to another city or even country and waste I don't know how many hours commuting, and spending most of your life in a space that you can't really adapt to your needs).
FinnLobsien · 6m ago
But you're precisely proving my point: If you're willing to go through all of that, you're super committed to that job!
If you're committed for the right reasons or not ultimately doesn't matter, but it is a filter for candidates.
Plus there are people who genuinely like working from an office full-time.
PicassoCTs · 1h ago
Its a filter for bad negotiators. Throw 1.5h commute on top of 9-10h work and you filter for people who have no sense of self-preservation and thus will also suck at negotiation. 3 years in burnout, rinse and repeat.
Game-development already is a super-hostile work environment, where "talent" is regularly replaced by some starry eyed university-grad for cheap. If people are just ablative material and payment is all the captain crunch you can eat in the cafeteria, nobody at a cult gets to work remote.
FinnLobsien · 1h ago
As someone who's not into gaming, it's still astounding to me how people endure the working conditions in that industry just because they're obsessed with video games.
I suppose it's the weird dynamic in our society where you get paid less and have worse working conditions the more passion you feel for your work.
blitzar · 31m ago
"Do what you love and you will never have to work a day in your life"
You will also get paid less than you are worth and eventually start to hate what you love.
FinnLobsien · 4m ago
I think it's a psychological thing where we assume what's fun can't be highly paid and what sucks must be worth a lot of compensation.
The intersection between highly paid and passionate is surprisingly rare.
citrin_ru · 55m ago
May be the problem with hiring from wider geography is that evaluation of a candidate performance is a difficult and largely unsolved problem. Hiring from a small area (like SV) an employer can rely on offline social networks (friend of my friend knows a candidate). Though I don’t understand why US companies so afraid to make a bad hire given that it is easy to fire someone who doesn’t perform well in the US.
FirmwareBurner · 18m ago
>Though I don’t understand why US companies so afraid to make a bad hire given that it is easy to fire someone who doesn’t perform well in the US.
I assume because in the US employees can still sue for what they would consider wrongful termination, especially if the worker is part of a protected group, making firing a very expensive endeavor in the end.
Tade0 · 1h ago
The hypothesis I settled on is that they're cracking down on overwork, so people pulling two jobs in secret.
There's also the question of executives having a stake in the commercial real estate that's used for the office, but I think it's secondary, as they're too okay with firing people for that to be the main reason.
Fleetfantasy · 3h ago
Probably the worst company I've interviewed for. Yet another reason to stay away
xingped · 2h ago
Agreed. I had a bizarre interview experience with them whereupon finishing the interview, the hiring manager emailed me once a week for about 4 or 5 weeks in a row asking if I was still interested. It was bizarre. How many times do I have to say yes? After the 4th or 5th time I just told them no, not any more.
blitzar · 29m ago
> After the 4th or 5th time I just told them no, not any more.
I hope that is the point where they sent the offer.
42lux · 2h ago
Indeed, it's even worse if you get acquired.
DataDaemon · 3h ago
- We need save climate! Less pollution!
- Can I work from home?
- That's not what I meant!
gedy · 7m ago
My previous company had some "greenest employee" award for commute with most transit, etc - they told me I didn't qualify because I wfh... even though I didn't drive at all for work.
I recently got an Amazon recruiter ping, but realized that they couldn’t pay me enough to commute into the city center. I’m not really looking, but if push came to shove, I would have to if the industry is really moving back to the office. Makes me real sad.
Even if productivity is better this way, isn't there an advantage to being able to hire people from a wider geography, access to a larger talent pool?
I read @paulg and other leadership type YC people support return to office as well. I recall startups competing for talent desperately. That was why silicon valley startups always had crazy perks. If talent was how my business disrupted and dominated, I would want the most access to talent and give them the best working conditions. Perhaps a subtle pivot in priority has happened? Tech companies no longer believe in a talent-centered strategy? Or there is an over abundance of talent?
I'm just trying to give people the benefit of doubt, that this isn't just cruel people unhappy at the sight of improved quality of life for others.
I think it's more of a litmus test: If you care about your work enough that you're willing to come to the office every day (or even move cities/countries), then you'll be extremely engaged.
So by saying "you have to come to the office 5 days a week", you will only get people who are very engaged and will get a lot done—even if it's not because of the office.
I guarantee there's a Venn diagram of extremely engaged people who also prefer (or will exclusively do) remote work, which office-only companies will miss out on.
But when you're in a high talent-density area like NYC/SF maybe that's not a big concern.
So willingness to come to the office becomes a proxy metric for how much you care, which obviously influences your engagement.
Sure, but what if there is another company closer to me (office), or offering hybrid or full remote work? I can about my work just the same elsewhere.
I think you're on the right track, but in my opinion, it is more about having reliable employees than employees who care or are engaged. Your actual performance and talent could be bad, but so long as you won't ask for too much pay and you won't leave any time soon, that is what these companies want more than talent. This is sort of what I was alluding to. disruptive startups would never think this way, but EA isn't that anymore. neither are google or facebook. they're no longer disruptive, they are complacent and spiraling into the IBM and AT&T like mediocrity.
Sure! I think the (maybe sad) reality is that most larger companies don't actually need excellence in most roles.
First, excellent people tend to have bigger variance and second, most jobs just don't require being that good.
I imagine that in today's Apple, there's no way Jony Ive would be as influential. And maybe that's just how things go:
The types of people who can innovate and change things are dissatisfied with the status quo. But once you ARE the status quo, you seek precisely the people who want to maintain it.
Or extremely stupid (if for the same money you get WFH without the need to move to another city or even country and waste I don't know how many hours commuting, and spending most of your life in a space that you can't really adapt to your needs).
If you're committed for the right reasons or not ultimately doesn't matter, but it is a filter for candidates.
Plus there are people who genuinely like working from an office full-time.
Game-development already is a super-hostile work environment, where "talent" is regularly replaced by some starry eyed university-grad for cheap. If people are just ablative material and payment is all the captain crunch you can eat in the cafeteria, nobody at a cult gets to work remote.
I suppose it's the weird dynamic in our society where you get paid less and have worse working conditions the more passion you feel for your work.
You will also get paid less than you are worth and eventually start to hate what you love.
The intersection between highly paid and passionate is surprisingly rare.
I assume because in the US employees can still sue for what they would consider wrongful termination, especially if the worker is part of a protected group, making firing a very expensive endeavor in the end.
There's also the question of executives having a stake in the commercial real estate that's used for the office, but I think it's secondary, as they're too okay with firing people for that to be the main reason.
I hope that is the point where they sent the offer.