Nevermind, an album on major chords

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Comments (53)

mingus88 · 2h ago
Pretty much every chord he played was a power chord. Thats just a root and a 5th.

It’s neither major or minor, because you need the 3rd to establish that

And nearly every punk and metal band uses predominantly power chords, without any real care in the world as to what the progressions are. It just sounds good to them. There aren’t any rules because punk is a DIY genre. If you told him he was doing a thing, he’d do the opposite just because. And it would still probably slap.

Kurt cobain was a fantastic song writer but you see these types of articles come out now and then propping him up as a genius. His own quote refutes that, and anyone who listens to punk music will agree that trying to analyze it using classical western tonality is silly and pretentious

notahacker · 2h ago
Yeah. And if you did want to analyze it using classical western tonality, then taking into account vocal melodies, quite a lot of it sits better in minor...

Power chords were quite heavily used by some of the bands Kurt liked and were easy to play, hence the stuff that sounded good when he was noodling used a lot of that. Nirvana weren't innovators in tonality, but they had great crunchy guitar tone, catchy hooks and a singer with a raspy voice - exactly what you'd expect a band that didn't care about music theory to potentially excel at, and exactly what was needed to breaking the trend in layered reverbs and guitar hero solos of the 80s ...

thisismytest · 2h ago
That’s just not true. Off the top of my head Lithium, Dumb, About A Girl have critical minor and major chords.

Also part of what made him so good was how he played vocal melody and rhythm off of chords. So in some songs you might have plain power chords but the melody hits important major or minor notes.

I don’t know what your definition for genius is but the guy wrote some of the best songs in human history and did so without a primary collaborator or big production crew of cowriters and collaborators. I think we can call him a genius.

tptacek · 2h ago
I like Nirvana as much as the next 90s kid but there is no way these are the best songs in human history, or even in rock history, or even in "modern rock" history.
wyclif · 2h ago
It's because the fans who like Cobain's songs overpraise him or praise him in the wrong terms: "OMG Kurt Cobain is a genius songwriter."

I think, and as this post suggests, it's much more the case that "Kurt Cobain had very good instincts for someone completely untutored" which is a different thing altogether.

mtalantikite · 1h ago
But I think most of us would take a musician with great instincts and not much theoretical understanding over one with extraordinary theory and poor instinct. How many thousands of boring jazz players have been pumped out by university programs over the past 50 years? Meanwhile John Lee Hooker could just vamp over a single chord and I could listen to it for hours.

I'm remembering a scene in Hampton Hawes's autobiography where a well known piano teacher was telling him his students were starting to ask how to play like Hampton. He tells him he wants to give him lessons to help his technique, which he thinks will help his natural talent even more, but Hampton finds it boring and never goes back. The teacher framed Hampton's check he used to pay for the lesson and put it on his wall. All that's to say having great ears can bring you a long way.

quesera · 1h ago
I'm not sure how to differentiate "very good instincts in an untutored person" from "genius".

I am very clear though, that "genius" and "intelligence" are unrelated but sometimes coincident.

horns4lyfe · 56m ago
I don’t know how you can say with a straight face that smells like teen spirit isn’t one of the greatest modern rock songs. That riff is etched in music history at this point
onlypassingthru · 3m ago
It's really twofold. You could also identify the song just from Dave's riffs.
tptacek · 11m ago
It's not even in my top 5 Nirvana songs. The riff you're talking about is Boston's "More Than A Feeling" --- so much so that they used to play a fake-out of "More Than A Feeeling" in concert. I like "Smells Like Teen Spirit" more than "More Than A Feeling", but not like, much more.

1. Where Did You Sleep Last Night Unplugged

2. Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle (or, interchangeably, "Rape Me", though the "blanket of ash" line gets me every time with Frances Farmer).

3. Lithium

4. Heart Shaped Box

5. Dumb (unplugged).

It's not fair to make the #1 song a cover, but that performance merits it.

thisismytest · 2h ago
Some of the best. More than one in the top 10,000.
jeswin · 2h ago
> some of the best songs in human history

I think this was the statement he/she was disagreeing with. No doubt a genius, but when you phrase it like that it's more than genius.

tptacek · 1h ago
I don't know that I think he was a genius? If I don't think Husker Du, the Pixies, and Sonic Youth were genius-led bands, I'm not sure how a band that basically synthesized those bands and then lensed them through Guns n Roses could be genius. Is David Bowie a genius? Maybe, if we're generous?

When I hear people call Cobain a genius I feel the way I do when I'm hear someone say they've never seen The Wire. Listen to Surfer Rosa and Rid of Me!

None of this is to say Nevermind and In Utero aren't good; they're very, very good, I listen to them all the time 30 years later. But like, I still listen to Soundgarden every once in awhile too. They're not geniuses!

quesera · 58m ago
I mostly agree with you, but I suspect there's an element of just being the right age.

I think of Kurt Cobain like an accidental Elvis Presley. Perfect for the moment, and (unlike Elvis) mostly organically grown, but with very clear antecedents.

I cannot point to strong antecedents of Pixies, Sonic Youth, Throwing Muses, PJ Harvey, Cocteau Twins, Bauhaus, Einstürzende Neubauten, The Slits, Bongwater, Kate Bush, The Cure, etc. In a couple of these cases, I suspect my own ignorance. In others, I could (and might) argue all night! :)

But I cannot assemble a case for not recognizing David Bowie as a (musical|performance) genius. I don't even enjoy his recordings very much, but he was artistically sui generis and enormously influential.

Influence might not be a requirement of genius (I'm not sure), but surely a novel creativity is at the root of it?

tptacek · 44s ago
Pixies antecedents are Husker Du and Sonic Youth.

Sonic Youth was the Velvets and The Fall; I found a list of setlists from '70s CBGB and made a playlist, and you can hear Sonic Youth all over it.

Throwing Muses (a favorite of mine) a little harder to pinpoint, feels to me like the product of a scene more than a direct evolution of clear antecedents, rather than an act like Dinosaur Jr. was a perversion of Neil Young. A good contrast to Nirvana, which was.

PJ Harvey is the Pixies antecedents plus Patti Smith. People say Beefheart; I don't know Beefheart well enough to say and have a deep suspicion of people who bring up Beefheart.

Kate Bush is prog rock.

Einsturzende is Can (or like a violent response to Can).

The Cure is radio-friendly post-punk; their early stuff, which is the only stuff that comes close to holding up, is basically Wire.

jamesblonde · 44m ago
Loud-quiet-loud was the signature sounds of Nirvana - borrowed from Frank Black who pioneered it with the Pixies. Kurt was a way better singer and better looking than Frank Black. Along with good songs, that was a recipe for success. I am a big Nirvana fan. But a bigger Pixies fan. A chunk of Pixies sound/energy was inspired from the guitar middle/outro in B52's "Rock Lobster".
tptacek · 22m ago
I like both of them, I don't think either is a genius, and I think both Frank Black and Cobain are on basically the same level. I really think it's underappreciated how much the early Seattle sound was just a fusion of 80s punk and hair metal. If you play Smells Like Teen Spirit and the Breeders "Hellbound" back to back, and you like Nirvana much more, what you really like is Guns n Roses.

There's no shame in that!

cue_the_strings · 2h ago
Yeah, that's definitely 'the' Kurt thing, vocal melody completing power chords.

I do hate how he (and the whole generation, and some of the punks before him + no wave crowd as well) pretended that they didn't know any music theory or practice at all. That was quite destructive for so many of us who aspired to play music in our teens, especially if you weren't exposed to music theory and practice in childhood through other means.

bryceneal · 1h ago
Going back all the way to the '60s, if you listen to interviews with Paul McCartney of The Beatles he states very plainly that he knows no music theory, and can't read music.

I suspect this is true of many great songwriters, maybe even most of them. I would even argue that studying music theory may even make you a worse songwriter, because the most innovative songwriters don't seem to follow some clearly established rulebook, but rather they bend/break the "rules" unknowingly because their focus is on what they are feeling/hearing rather than something more analytical.

munchler · 1h ago
Paul McCartney deliberately avoided learning how to read music, but he understands music theory just fine. They are two different skills. It's quite clear from The Beatles' music that they know about keys, chords, etc.

For example, McCartney tells a fun story about The Beatles traveling across Liverpool to learn a single B7 chord in their early days: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_r5B1AhP1Fo

bryceneal · 20m ago
I hear your point. I wouldn't personally consider someone who knows what a key or a chord is to be well-studied in music theory. Surely even Kurt Cobain understood which power chords he was playing, for example.

I was referring more to being well read in music theory in the academic sense. I am doubtful McCartney ever picked up a book on the subject. Traveling to meet someone so they can show you how to position your fingers so you can play a B7 chord is a bit different than that in my opinion.

jfengel · 1h ago
Did he pretend, or did he really not know? The blues was founded by people who rediscovered Western music theory on their own, in part because guitars lend themselves to it. Punks learned that they could play power chords because they work with the messy overdriven sound.

Theory can explain it after the fact, and can extend your options (or at least save you time knowing what you want). I know a lot of "untrained" musicians had a fair bit of theory, but I don't know about Cobain.

mingus88 · 2h ago
I mean, you have lost credibility in my eyes by claiming he wrote some of the best songs in human history. Have you any idea the sheer scope of music that has existed?

What a ridiculous statement.

Melodies will be in a key, using a set of notes. That’s kinda unavoidable. By his own statement he wasn’t aware of any tonality and didn’t even care to. That folk come along decades afterward and try to fit it into various boxes is good for them, but shows a complete misunderstanding of what he was doing as an artist. I’d imagine he’d shake his head at this entire thread.

thisismytest · 1h ago
When it comes to cultural significance and catchiness the fact that people have been doing it for a long time doesn’t matter.

In fact, the ability to tap into mass media only makes the impact of a song greater. Access to electric instruments and effects only gave them more ability to create interesting music.

I’m a fan of all kinds of music old and new. But anyone saying German leders or old timey civil war ditties are better than Smells Like Teen spirit are high on their own supply.

Most of history humans expressed an extraordinarily limited range of emotion in song, in rigid form. Kurt Cobain wrote more than one song that you could play for a toddler and they’d love it. He wrote more than one song that hundreds of millions of people are listening to 30 years later. I’m sorry but your favorite Gregorian Chant is just not very good in comparison.

globnomulous · 1h ago
This comment is such a weird way to defend the patently absurd claim that he wrote some of the best songs in human history.

Even the first sentence makes no cogent sense, especially when read alongside your original comment:

> When it comes to cultural significance and catchiness the fact that people have been doing it for a long time doesn’t matter.

You've apparently changed your argument. "Best in human history" does not mean "most culturally significant and catchiest."

If "the fact that people have been doing it for a long time doesn't matter," then why did you mention all of human history?

If what you mean instead is that you care only about contemporary, present-day cultural impact, then, again, why did you mention all of human history? You've already decided that no time period other than the present matters.

jrowen · 36m ago
This whole subthread - arguing about "the best songs in human history" without even the slightest attempt to define one of the most subjective things ever - is patently absurd.
quesera · 48m ago
> You've apparently changed your argument. "Best in human history" does not mean "most culturally significant and catchiest."

To be fair, "best" has no correct definition.

What's yours?

globnomulous · 39m ago
> What's yours?

Just not whatever that guy's is.

Less cheekily, I agree with you that, in the case of something like music, the concept of "best" has no correct meaning. It's literal nonsense.

thisismytest · 23m ago
The point was that the guy was a genius.

Most definitions of genius are more liberal than a 1 and a million talent and he was at least that.

Actually try a definition and see what happens.

Rolling stone made a best list. SLTS was number 5.

He’s written some of the best songs ever by many definitions. That makes him a genius. Both terms are ambiguous, debating that is boring.

sunrunner · 2h ago
> Melodies will be in a key, using a set of notes. That’s kinda unavoidable.

Schoenberg has entered the chat.

andybak · 2h ago
Arguably we tend to attempt to hear atonal music in a key (or temporal sequence of keys) despite it's attempt to avoid that.

I suspect something similar about bitonality. We hear one of the keys and then try and interpret the other notes in relation to that.

(warning. I am neither a music theorist or an expert in the psychology of music perception. But this is HN so yolo...)

sunrunner · 1h ago
> we tend to attempt to hear atonal music in a key

Is it the case that much of this is influenced by individuals having grown up listening in an environment with music already structured around a central key and modulation around that? With the same idea also applying to an understanding (or feeling) of rhythm?

Biganon · 1h ago
Atonal music / serialism is insufferable pretentious bs that no one has ever listened to with pleasure, ever. It's a purely mathematical study, orthogonal to art.
sunrunner · 1h ago
I don't disagree regarding "listened to with pleasure" and I only remember actively listening to atonal music as part of a required syllabus. I do think it's perhaps a useful lens to use to look at 'traditional' tonal music through however, even if just to re-affirm that _some_ kind of order and structure is an important part in making something palatable to the ears (or the brain).
epcoa · 1h ago
I will continue to abstain from eating dog shit to convince myself that a ribeye tastes good.
williamdclt · 1h ago
> punk and metal band uses predominantly power chords, without any real care in the world as to what the progressions are

Somewhat true for punk, mostly incorrect for metal. A lot of metal is very analytical, deeper in musical theory than most popular genres (rock, pop, rnb…), they care _a lot_ about it. Metal is often very technical, it bred some of the top musicians in the world, it’s no surprise they give a shit about it: it’s their craft and a hard one.

In fact I remember the singer of Gojira in a French interview, saying (iirc, surely not quite remembering his point) that metal is in many ways closer to classical than rock, as it values composition so much more where rock is all about interpretation (closer to punk)

seanhunter · 1h ago
Yeah. It's really poor musical analysis in general, and my ears just don't agree. For example "Come as you are"- it's really hard not to hear that as functionally in a minor mode.

Also, there's nothing particularly unusual about not having any minor chords. In fact, here's a thing that may surprise some people: most African music for example has no minor chords of any kind, and we're not talking about power chords etc just only major and no minor triads. In African music it's really common to have the first inversion of the 4th degree triad function as the relative minor (so in the key of C that would be A-C-F instead of A-C-E).

anton-c · 1h ago
They probably didn't care what they were but when you pull them apart it's usually some variation of a 1-4-6-5 with occasional chords on the 2nd or 7th scale degree. Generally it was diatonic. I think most musicians listen to enough to know when something doesn't sound "right"(beyond welcome subversions of expectations usually found in more sophisticated genres, musically. I love and played punk for the record)
tangue · 2h ago
Yep 90% power chords and the sound on Nevermind was in part due to Butch Vig. It’s simple but at the time quite unheard : bit of compression a lot of overdub, maybe a little flange/chorus but it was quite minimal compared to heavy metal, guitar heroes of the time and really different from the punk bands.
SwellJoe · 1h ago
This is a remarkably ignorant take. Literally every detail is wrong.

They aren't major chords, they're mostly power chords, which are neither major nor minor (no third and the third provides the major/minor tonality). They often function as minor chords because of the melody or other parts, or just because of how the progression fits together. They aren't unique or new with Cobain, he was part of a long history of punk and rock and roll.

Cobain was a good songwriter in the rock and roll tradition. He was not particularly innovative or doing something technically unheard of, and he wouldn't have claimed to be. He wanted to be a good songwriter, and he succeeded. That's it, don't make up bullshit about it.

bigstrat2003 · 29s ago
> Cobain was a good songwriter in the rock and roll tradition.

He wasn't even that. He was a pretty bad songwriter. His music was by and large mopey, plodding monotonous work that is dreary to listen to. Apart from Smells Like Teen Spirit, I don't think he wrote a single song worth listening to.

crucialfelix · 2h ago
Just like many punks before him, he did know chords, but he wanted that classic punk naive sound and in interviews he claims he doesn't know anything. It's about moving up and down the neck and finding the sweet, sick and weird sounds.

I don't know why the article claims this was a Nirvana discovery. It started in the 70s. Discharge, Wire then Fugazi, Minor Threat. These people are smart, just raw, and they like blunt aesthetics.

kimi · 1h ago
Don't forget Ramones.
cue_the_strings · 2h ago
A common thing w/ Nirvana songs is that Kurt plays power chords, and then has the thirds (+ other tones) in the vocal melody.

But also, it was just a (counter-) cultural thing to feign lack of music theory knowledge or practice at the time. Quite a destructive one, I might add.

A nice video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWY4YYmSTWg

cue_the_strings · 2h ago
If you want a song with all majors, where the full chords are played on the main instrument, first thing that comes to mind is Eno's Golden Hours (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxyg3sP03Cs). For parts of songs, maybe the intro to Wuthering Heights by Kate Bush (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1pMMIe4hb4)
codazoda · 1h ago
If you like this you might like The Storyteller by Dave Grohl, it’s a great read from the vantage point of Nirvana’s drummer and his adventures and music influences both before and after.

The Kindle version is $3 right now.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B091Q9VCP4/

hbsbsbsndk · 54m ago
Dave needs all the money he can get, he has two families to feed!
jsphweid · 1h ago
As other posts point out, leaving out the third takes away the major-ness.

It's also worth mentioning the way Kurt often played power chords, using his index for the bass note and barring the rest with his ring finger. This often leads to major chords when the root is on the A string and non-major ambiguous-sounding chords with the root is on the E string. It's obvious as early as the 3rd chord in the intro to Teen Spirit; it has the notes Ab Eb Ab Db (NOTE: Db, not C). It's inconsistent in Kurt's playing (edit: whether or not his strumming makes that 4th string, 4th interval sound come out), but the subtlety is a signature part of Kurt's guitar sound.

Also some of the chord analysis in the site (ex. In Bloom verse) is just flat out wrong.

Synaesthesia · 2h ago
Kinda like the Beatles there are clasically "wrong" chord progressions that just work. (EG V-IV-1). Just a classic punk album.
seanhunter · 1h ago
V-VI-I is a plagal cadence. It's most definitely not classically wrong. Take any old hymn, Bach corale etc if they do a big "Amen" that will be a plagal cadence.

https://www.musictheoryacademy.com/how-to-read-sheet-music/c...

For some reason, people who don't know music theory say things like this about the Beatles because they think because they haven't heard something before it must be new.

vunderba · 1h ago
From the article:

> Careful music analysis was left for other bands.

I'm sorry... but lol what.

> And it's fascinating to think that Kurt Cobain was unaware of any musical composition's rule he was following, but just trusting his musical instict (sic).

This doesn't come as much of a surprise. A good deal of my friends who are musicians (particularly those who could sing) found themselves writing music at a pretty young age before they had any real understanding of music theory.

0_____0 · 1h ago
It was wild to watch deadmau5 live streams and see him dink around in the piano roll seemingly with no plan or idea what key he was in. This isn't a knock either, clearly he makes some dope 4/4 house bangers, but not because he went to Berklee.
amanaplanacanal · 40m ago
Western music theory is all coming along after the fact to explain why something sounds good.