> We already have two incompatible visions of what America should be. One side wants a multi-ethnic democracy with a social safety net. The other wants a white Christian ethnostate with unlimited corporate power.
Isn't JD Vance married to an Indian lady?
The article is very interesting and smart and well written with some really great ideas, but I think there may be a little bit of hyperbole which Im still ok with.
tkel · 8h ago
And Thomas Jefferson had children with his slave.
smitty1e · 3h ago
And then there was a bloody civil war to eliminate chattel slavery.
These days we have more sophisticated control mechanisms involving government regulations.
rbanffy · 9h ago
One case is Bolsonaro in Brazil. He was elected and wasn’t re-elected four years later. He now will face trial for his attempted coup.
readthenotes1 · 7h ago
The author even says "Finland 1932 is the only clean win I can find".
So not 0.
Maybe 0 when the future dictator is invited to power as a deep state move, not by the people but by the government?
glimmung · 1h ago
Nope, the author's point is about what happens after fascists are elected, and he proposed no exceptions to that.
Finland was not cited as an exception. His point about Finland was that the fascists messed up - they tried to use violence before that point.
sfpotter · 9h ago
IMO this the most apt comparison with the US. Unfortunately we don't have a robust leftwing alternative. We had our Lula in the form of Sanders but we saw the DNC's response. I think if we fail to prevent fascism in this case it is most likely to be the democrats' fault.
foogazi · 7h ago
Fascism is the fascists fault
Assigning the blame to the “other” side seems like a cop out.
000ooo000 · 1h ago
This is like saying failure to prevent crime is the criminals' fault.
dlachausse · 6h ago
The Democrat party's primaries aren't very democratic. The party elites selected (Hillary) Clinton, Biden, and Harris. Obama was the last candidate chosen by the people.
jleyank · 9h ago
Perhaps it's time to fork the united states and see how each half goes. One half will have food. One half will have money. There's probably enough guns and enough disorder to keep things messy. Very messy.
I guess we can take Irish solution and employ work-to-rule, passive resistance and the like. Prevent the cash from leaving the state, prevent the Guard from mobilizing or leaving the state. Rely on ejecting non-whites and women from the services doing a number on effectiveness.
Who gets to invoke Nato? The nukes are in red states I think, will they nuke themselves? Is there enough of an edge to teeter on to get people to wake up and turn on other branches of government? The Civil War was bloody. The French Revolution was bloody, perhaps the lack-of-bloodthirstiness will help people say "ah, f*ck it" and let things part?
Never, ever thought this sh*t possible. And so quickly... Puts China in a very odd position, trying to determine which result is optimal for China. Strong, well-armed rogue states aren't good for business.
tmarman · 7h ago
California represents ~15% of GDP and 11% of the agricultural output including 33% of vegetables and 75% of fruits and nuts. Just saying.
dlachausse · 6h ago
> 11% of the agricultural output including 33% of vegetables and 75% of fruits and nuts. Just saying.
That's the RED part of California. Just saying.
armchairhacker · 9h ago
South Korea 2024?
No comments yet
vgivanovic · 3h ago
Why was this post flagged?
rbanffy · 42s ago
Not sure. The discussion remains civil.
numa7numa7 · 8h ago
> What would the red states do, invade California?
They would shut off the water supply to California
peterleiser · 8h ago
Southern California is vulnerable to that, but not Northern California. California is the largest food producer to the US, including about 1/3 of our fresh vegetables and 3/4 of fruits and nuts. The country wouldn't starve without California, but I sure wouldn't want to experience a situation where California stops exporting to red states.
dlachausse · 6h ago
The agricultural parts of California are largely red. In this hypothetical scenario, why wouldn't they pull a West Virginia and secede from Southern California to be with their ideological brethren?
If you look at an electoral map by county of the United States, you'll see that the major cities are blue and almost everything else is red. The everything else is the part of America that produces food and manufactured goods.
Good try, the state is rich and borders the ocean.
They can afford water facilities.
mrjay42 · 8h ago
Could it be a case of "unwanted fallacy"? (bear with me)
I mean:
At almost any point in time, when fascists are NOT in power, it's because they were, one way or another, stopped.
The logic would be: fascism is a systematic/automatic force that wants to seize power, usually by basing its ideology on anti-intellectualism, glorified past, enemies of the nation that must be eliminated/deported, imperialist motives (conquest, war, etc.).
This systematic force always exists. It always exists because there are always people who wants to dominate, oppress, express violence against this or that group of people.
Therefore, the few times fascists reached power in any country around the world it's because of a combination of factors and that's what we KNOW about.
For instance, this movement https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulangisme never reached power. BUT it for sure planted the seeds of future hatred, extreme nationalism, etc. and they were VERY determined to take the power, and they didn't. But we don't 'count' it as "fascism that was stopped" because there was no clear, obvious, big event that we can pinpoint as fascists being stopped.
bryanlarsen · 8h ago
Copying mathgeeks comment on another post:
The actual claim in the blog post:
> Once fascists win power democratically, they have never been removed democratically. Not once. Ever.
Boulangisme never reached power democratically, so not a relevant example.
nabla9 · 9h ago
He mentions Finland and Lapua movement as an example and it's correct, but there are others.
United Sates:
There was Ku Klux Klan (KKK) in the south.
In the 1930s fascism became very popular in the US. 25% of Americans listened regularly fascist radio program from father Charles Coughlin. "It is fascism or communism. We are at the crossroads. I take the road to fascism.” Large number of "shirts" organizations (fascists with different shirt colors, silver, black, green, .. ). In the Congress America First Committee, while not a fascist organization itself, included several core members with antisemitic and pro-fascist sympathies.
AstralStorm · 9h ago
That only did not happen because the US national pride was wounded by the Japanese.
DaveZale · 9h ago
very thoughtful. Obviously many conscientious Israelis are leaving their country (it's a real thing). Likewise with the US.
I am in the US, but my approach to the oligarchy/AIPAC takeover is real simple, though maybe not effective: just cut spending to a bare minimum. The billionaires need to make more more more, well not if I can help it. Politcally, everyone should switch to Independent status! Don't let them takw your vote for granted. Never ever vote straight party choices. It's more work to research each candidate but hey, enjoy learning sometimes unsavory details. Check opensecrets.org about who is bankrolling each candidate. Read responsible alternative news sources that don't push ads, and donate to the best ones.
symbolicAGI · 9h ago
Fascism does not work in the long run economically. The grifter state fails.
OP Refuted by:
Italy (Mussolini’s Fascist Regime)
Spain (Franco’s Regime)
Portugal (Estado Novo)
Chile (Pinochet)
debo_ · 9h ago
Several of your cited cases are mentioned in the article. The article's actual claim is:
> Here's what I found: Once fascists win power democratically, they have never been removed democratically.
mathgeek · 9h ago
The actual claim in the blog post:
> Once fascists win power democratically, they have never been removed democratically. Not once. Ever.
AstralStorm · 8h ago
The claim is false, as long as they are unable to change the form of the government they tend to flame out and lose support quickly, because there's not that much substance behind their populism. They tend to have no real plan that's why different from a typical warlord, just on a slightly bigger scale.
Unless they go to war...
The real issue is that nobody with any degree of power really cares.
kjellsbells · 8h ago
Ok, so the states fall, but not before existing for at least a generation and in some cases effectively an entire working life:
- Francoist Spain: 40 years.
- Pinochet Chile: 17 years.
- Salazar Portugal: 36 years.
If you were 22 when Pinochet took power for example you didn't see the end until 39. Your best years lost. And that's the "lite" version. (I ignored Italy because of WW2)
If the US MAGA contingent gloms on to this fascism malarkey by anointing a true believer after Trumps inevitable death (he is pushing 80, after all) we would be looking at decades of loss.
litoE · 6h ago
On the other hand, Pinochet in Chile held an election in 1988. The choices were to keep him as president or replace him with a constitutional government. He lost (55% to 45%) and he stepped down, allowing a democratic government to replace him. This negates the main thesis, of a 0% success rate in stopping fascism.
fredski42 · 8h ago
You think Trump is in power? I do not think he really is. He is a puppet. Others are the Puppet Masters.
peterleiser · 8h ago
Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but (and I'm genuinely asking) what is your point here?
Isn't JD Vance married to an Indian lady?
The article is very interesting and smart and well written with some really great ideas, but I think there may be a little bit of hyperbole which Im still ok with.
These days we have more sophisticated control mechanisms involving government regulations.
So not 0.
Maybe 0 when the future dictator is invited to power as a deep state move, not by the people but by the government?
Finland was not cited as an exception. His point about Finland was that the fascists messed up - they tried to use violence before that point.
Assigning the blame to the “other” side seems like a cop out.
I guess we can take Irish solution and employ work-to-rule, passive resistance and the like. Prevent the cash from leaving the state, prevent the Guard from mobilizing or leaving the state. Rely on ejecting non-whites and women from the services doing a number on effectiveness.
Who gets to invoke Nato? The nukes are in red states I think, will they nuke themselves? Is there enough of an edge to teeter on to get people to wake up and turn on other branches of government? The Civil War was bloody. The French Revolution was bloody, perhaps the lack-of-bloodthirstiness will help people say "ah, f*ck it" and let things part?
Never, ever thought this sh*t possible. And so quickly... Puts China in a very odd position, trying to determine which result is optimal for China. Strong, well-armed rogue states aren't good for business.
That's the RED part of California. Just saying.
No comments yet
They would shut off the water supply to California
If you look at an electoral map by county of the United States, you'll see that the major cities are blue and almost everything else is red. The everything else is the part of America that produces food and manufactured goods.
https://tmp.propublica.org/assets/img/2024-us-election-resul...
They can afford water facilities.
I mean: At almost any point in time, when fascists are NOT in power, it's because they were, one way or another, stopped.
The logic would be: fascism is a systematic/automatic force that wants to seize power, usually by basing its ideology on anti-intellectualism, glorified past, enemies of the nation that must be eliminated/deported, imperialist motives (conquest, war, etc.).
This systematic force always exists. It always exists because there are always people who wants to dominate, oppress, express violence against this or that group of people.
Therefore, the few times fascists reached power in any country around the world it's because of a combination of factors and that's what we KNOW about.
For instance, this movement https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulangisme never reached power. BUT it for sure planted the seeds of future hatred, extreme nationalism, etc. and they were VERY determined to take the power, and they didn't. But we don't 'count' it as "fascism that was stopped" because there was no clear, obvious, big event that we can pinpoint as fascists being stopped.
The actual claim in the blog post:
> Once fascists win power democratically, they have never been removed democratically. Not once. Ever.
Boulangisme never reached power democratically, so not a relevant example.
United Sates:
There was Ku Klux Klan (KKK) in the south.
In the 1930s fascism became very popular in the US. 25% of Americans listened regularly fascist radio program from father Charles Coughlin. "It is fascism or communism. We are at the crossroads. I take the road to fascism.” Large number of "shirts" organizations (fascists with different shirt colors, silver, black, green, .. ). In the Congress America First Committee, while not a fascist organization itself, included several core members with antisemitic and pro-fascist sympathies.
I am in the US, but my approach to the oligarchy/AIPAC takeover is real simple, though maybe not effective: just cut spending to a bare minimum. The billionaires need to make more more more, well not if I can help it. Politcally, everyone should switch to Independent status! Don't let them takw your vote for granted. Never ever vote straight party choices. It's more work to research each candidate but hey, enjoy learning sometimes unsavory details. Check opensecrets.org about who is bankrolling each candidate. Read responsible alternative news sources that don't push ads, and donate to the best ones.
OP Refuted by:
Italy (Mussolini’s Fascist Regime)
Spain (Franco’s Regime)
Portugal (Estado Novo)
Chile (Pinochet)
> Here's what I found: Once fascists win power democratically, they have never been removed democratically.
> Once fascists win power democratically, they have never been removed democratically. Not once. Ever.
Unless they go to war...
The real issue is that nobody with any degree of power really cares.
- Francoist Spain: 40 years.
- Pinochet Chile: 17 years.
- Salazar Portugal: 36 years.
If you were 22 when Pinochet took power for example you didn't see the end until 39. Your best years lost. And that's the "lite" version. (I ignored Italy because of WW2)
If the US MAGA contingent gloms on to this fascism malarkey by anointing a true believer after Trumps inevitable death (he is pushing 80, after all) we would be looking at decades of loss.