Having spent a while working in embedded and learning that this is not a lesson that's been internalised: this is why you never sign any executable that can boot on shipped hardware unless you'd be ok with everyone running it on shipped hardware. You can not promise it will not leak. You can not promise all copies will be destroyed. If it needs to run on production hardware then you should have some per-device mechanism for one-off signatures, and if it doesn't then it should either be unsigned (if fusing secure boot happens late) or have the signature invalidated as the last thing that happens before the device is put in the box.
A lot of companies do not appear to understand this. A lot of devices with silicon-level secure boot can be circumvented with signed images that have just never (officially) been distributed to the public, and anyone relying on their security is actually relying on vendors never accidentally trashing a drive containing one. In this case Nintendo (or a contractor) utterly failed to destroy media in the way they were presumably supposed to, but it would have been better to have never existed in this form in the first place.
bri3d · 5h ago
I think they _might_ have thought a little farther than this; as far as I can tell this tool was _supposed_ to only boot images with the same security checks as the actual fused state of the console, and the issue was that the section header parsing code was vulnerable to a trivial attack which allowed arbitrary execution, which of course could then bypass the lifecycle state checks.
I'd extend your thesis to "you need to audit your recovery tools with the _exact same_ level of scrutiny with which you audit your production secondary bootloader, because they're effectively the same thing," which is the same concept but not _quite_ as boneheaded as you suggest.
Recently, I see this class of exploit more commonly, too: stuff like "there's a development bootloader signed with production keys" has gone away a little, replaced with "there's a recovery bootloader with signature checking that's broken in some obvious way." Baby steps, I guess...
josephcsible · 4h ago
I don't like this advice because it seems like it's only useful to people who want to do tivoization in the first place. I hope people who try to do that keep failing at it, because "success" is bad for the rest of us.
mjg59 · 2h ago
At a social level we should know how to do this well because there are cases where it needs to be done well. Some hardware is operating in incredibly safety critical scenarios where you do want to have strong confidence that it's running the correct software[1].
Should this be shipped to consumers as a default? Fuck no. This technology needs to exist for safety, but that doesn't mean it should be used to prop up business models. Unfortunately there's no good technical mechanism to prevent technology being used in user-hostile ways, and we're left with social pressure. We should be organising around that social pressure rather than refusing to talk about the tech.
[1] and let's not even focus on the "Someone hacked it" situation - what if it accidentally shipped with an uncertified debug build? This seems implausible, but when Apple investigated the firmware they'd shipped on laptops they found that some machines had been pulled off the production line, had a debug build installed to validate something, and had then been put back on the production line without a legitimate build being installed - and if Apple can get this wrong, everyone can get this wrong
Cerium · 36m ago
Great point, in general I find that the story for security is always hackers but the result is that far more commonly you hack yourself with manufacturing process variation.
dlenski · 3h ago
Agreed. I'm rooting for the continued failure of everyone who locks down hardware (and software) to prevent its users from modifying or fully controlling it.
bri3d · 7h ago
This reminds me a lot of the PSP Pandora's Battery: a special factory "boot from external flash" system with exploitable vulnerabilities - on PSP, the special Pandora's Battery "JigKick" serial number 0xFFFFFFFF or the factory battery challenge/response "Baryon Sweeper" on newer consoles, followed by a rather complicated exploit in the "ipl.bin" signature checking process on the external hardware. On the Wii U, the "unstable power" battery jig followed by a simple overflow in SDBoot1.
That was super interesting! Are there any details on how/where they found the sd and memory cards? It seems like you’d have to be incredibly lucky to find something like that.
wileydragonfly · 2h ago
Nice try, Nintendo lawyer.
bananaboy · 1h ago
Haha, I’m not though. I’m actually a professional game developer and have worked on the Wii and wiiu. But there’s no way I can express curiosity about this without sounding like a lawyer. Have an upvote though haha.
int0x29 · 5h ago
I've seen people exploit hardware by messing with the power supply before. I've never seen it be the intended manufacturer maintenance key.
Some of the best gaming time in my life has been on handheld consoles, even when the games were available on PC or TV.
I wish there was a modern platform (not just a hobbyist Raspberry Pi kit or something) in the Switch or DS form factor, that boots straight into a coding environment like the legendary Commodore 64 and other "computer-consoles" of that era, with a central app store for indie devs to publish to for free. Add in dedicated support from a game engine like Godot, and I think something like that could spark a renaissance of solo devs/buddy teams experimenting with new game ideas and stuff.
bananaboy · 2h ago
There is the commander x16 from the 8-bit guy https://www.commanderx16.com/ although it’s not in a handheld form factor.
dontlaugh · 2h ago
Probably the closest thing is a Steam Deck with a custom Linux distro.
aspenmayer · 4h ago
> I wish there was a modern platform (not just a hobbyist Raspberry Pi kit or something) in the Switch or DS form factor, that boots straight into a coding environment like the legendary Commodore 64 and other "computer-consoles" of that era, with a central app store for indie devs to publish to for free.
I’m not sure if this will do what you want, but it is Linux on a DS! No active developers at the moment. They have instructions to build your own images as well as some software built for it.
A lot of companies do not appear to understand this. A lot of devices with silicon-level secure boot can be circumvented with signed images that have just never (officially) been distributed to the public, and anyone relying on their security is actually relying on vendors never accidentally trashing a drive containing one. In this case Nintendo (or a contractor) utterly failed to destroy media in the way they were presumably supposed to, but it would have been better to have never existed in this form in the first place.
I'd extend your thesis to "you need to audit your recovery tools with the _exact same_ level of scrutiny with which you audit your production secondary bootloader, because they're effectively the same thing," which is the same concept but not _quite_ as boneheaded as you suggest.
Recently, I see this class of exploit more commonly, too: stuff like "there's a development bootloader signed with production keys" has gone away a little, replaced with "there's a recovery bootloader with signature checking that's broken in some obvious way." Baby steps, I guess...
Should this be shipped to consumers as a default? Fuck no. This technology needs to exist for safety, but that doesn't mean it should be used to prop up business models. Unfortunately there's no good technical mechanism to prevent technology being used in user-hostile ways, and we're left with social pressure. We should be organising around that social pressure rather than refusing to talk about the tech.
[1] and let's not even focus on the "Someone hacked it" situation - what if it accidentally shipped with an uncertified debug build? This seems implausible, but when Apple investigated the firmware they'd shipped on laptops they found that some machines had been pulled off the production line, had a debug build installed to validate something, and had then been put back on the production line without a legitimate build being installed - and if Apple can get this wrong, everyone can get this wrong
https://www.psdevwiki.com/psp/Pandora
https://github.com/khubik2/pysweeper
Some of the best gaming time in my life has been on handheld consoles, even when the games were available on PC or TV.
I wish there was a modern platform (not just a hobbyist Raspberry Pi kit or something) in the Switch or DS form factor, that boots straight into a coding environment like the legendary Commodore 64 and other "computer-consoles" of that era, with a central app store for indie devs to publish to for free. Add in dedicated support from a game engine like Godot, and I think something like that could spark a renaissance of solo devs/buddy teams experimenting with new game ideas and stuff.
I’m not sure if this will do what you want, but it is Linux on a DS! No active developers at the moment. They have instructions to build your own images as well as some software built for it.
https://www.dslinux.org/